Can LeBron Possibly Catch Jordan?

[Slyfox696]

Lebron averages ONE more rebound per game for his career, but yeah rebounding "isn't close". FOH.

1 rebound a game is fairly significant statistically, almost a 17% difference. Over the course of a 10 year career, that's over 800 rebounds. If LeBron played 13 seasons, as Jordan did, that is more than 1,000 rebounds difference. And if we look at LeBron's total rebounds, he's at 7707 rebounds while Jordan is at 6672 rebounds. And that's with Jordan playing in 11 more games to this point.

I guess your math ability is about as good as your reading comprehension.

You must've missed the season that Mike ran point and averaged 8 assists per game.

You must have missed the fact passing is about far more than just assists.

Just stop. You clearly don't understand the game of basketball and you're just embarrassing yourself.

Also, if we're talking about assists, in 11 less games, LeBron already has almost 2000 more assists. Seriously, just stop.

Understandable that you missed it because you were probably 2 years old, but you should do more research.

Says the person who continuously says stupid and ignorant things and makes a hypocrite of himself.

Mike averaged 5 apg, playing in the triangle, with Scottie as his teammate. You don't think he could've averaged 7 apg like Bron, in a different offense where his best teammates were scorers and not playmakers?

Quite possibly the weakest argument I've ever seen in this debate. Here, I'll play this game.

"If LeBron had Kobe, Steph and Durant on his team, don't you think he could have won 8 NBA championships in his career?"

Stop saying stupid things.

LOL at focusing on "better teammate" and telling me that Jason Kidd was a "better leader" than Terry Porter. As if you would know. This ain't high school.

Of course we know. We KNOW Michael Jordan was a first rate jerk whose only teammates disliked him. We KNOW he punched his teammates in practice. We know he was selfish. Hell, the Ringer just had a good article on The Jordan Rules just the other day. Here's the link: https://theringer.com/the-jordan-ru...ith-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-48b12d6d3e15

We also know LeBron James has basically become the first player/GM in modern basketball history. We can see him actively changing the balance of power in the league from front offices to players. Guys want to play with LeBron. Some guys (Miller, Jones) follow LeBron from team to team. Others see drastic improvements in their game (Irving) and emotions (Smith).

We know LeBron is a great teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. We know Jordan was not a good teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. So you keep laughing and the rest of us knowledgable basketball fans will keep laughing at you.

LOL at your dismissal of the Sonics, while offering no discussion whatsoever.

What discussion is needed? They went to one NBA Finals and lost by double digits in three of their losses. They were down 3 games to none before winning a couple. Sure, the Bulls were a great team, but what about the Sonics make you think they were capable of winning the title in any other year? They didn't in '94 or '95, with the '95 team having essentially the same roster and losing in the first round. They didn't go back to the Finals in '97, despite having basically the same team from the year before, losing in the second round.

What makes you think they were so special in '96 they just got unlucky to face the Bulls, as Cavs fans can legitimately argue this year (injures in 2015 and GS behemoth in 2017)?

They swept the Rockets(one year after they won it all) you know. I don't think you know much about them or that era. Seems pretty obvious.

No, I know enough about them. You're just saying stupid things, which simply cannot be supported with any evidence except for "uh huh".

Clyde was SECOND in MVP voting and first team all league in '92.

...okay? What does that have to do with his ability to play basketball? Again you show just how little you understand basketball.

Let's put it another way. In 2007, CC Sabathia went 19-7 and won the AL Cy Young Award with an ERA of 3.21. Does that mean he was a better pitcher in 2007 than Pedro Martinez was in 2002, when Pedro went 20-4 with a 2.26 ERA, but finished 2 in the Cy Young voting? Was Steve Nash in 2006 a better basketball player than LeBron James in any of the last three years?

Your arguments are ridiculous. Just stop.

Better than Dirk was in '11. Nice copout with "tougher matchup".

You don't think a sharp shooting 7 footer is a tougher matchup? Seriously, do you even watch basketball?

Clown post.

You have clearly demonstrated how little you understand basketball on multiple occasions. You should probably refrain from insulting anyone else's post on the subject.

I didn't "reciprocate" with my own shit because it's stupid and unnecessary.

You are the one who brought it up! You (and you've done this a couple of times since then) tried to insinuate my knowledge of basketball must be lacking because I haven't watched for some arbitrary number of years you decided mattered. We KNOW this was your intention because you've brought it up repeatedly in your posts.

You are such a dumbass. You tried to impeach my position by attempting to undermine my position by your arbitrary criteria, but when your argument is quickly and definitively squashed, you now try to claim it didn't matter.

That is dishonest, just as dishonest as you shaking your head about giving credit to LeBron for beating a team who beat him while simultaneously trying to give credit to Jordan for beating the Pistons, a hypocrisy for which you still haven't acknowledged and apologized.

Take your dishonesty someplace else.

You had no good reason to bring it up in the first place

You brought it up, not me.

Has ZERO to do with how long you've been watching the NBA.

And how long I've watched the NBA has nothing to do with my ability to compare basketball players and teams.

Since you really want to know, i coach JV basketball, played my whole life, was all league in high school, and am really good friends with a D-1 coach.

Then how can you be so damn ignorant to the game? How can you coach basketball and be friends with a coach and yet say such stupid things like arguing Michael is as good of a passer because assists? That's such a stupid thing to say and any coach worth a lick would know that.

If those truly are your credentials, why would you say such blatantly stupid things?

We should all never forget that 75 year old dumb white guys painted him as a "ballhog" who would "never win a championship" because he "didn't play the right way like Bob Cousy did". You're right. Thanks for bringing that up. Those idiots were wrong.

Yes, THAT'S why they said it. It wasn't because Jordan would openly pout if he wasn't getting enough shots. It's not because Jordan CLEARLY would not trust his teammates or because Jordan undermined his coaches. No, it's because of 75 year olds.

You're so ridiculous.

LOL at mentioning Washington. If anything, Mike coming back as a 38-39 year old and dropping 20 ppg just adds to his legacy.

Did he win the NBA Finals? No? Then he was a failure...at least that's what so many LeBron detractors try to argue. And in case you want to argue you didn't say that, refer back to whom I was responding.

Bringing up '95 is just stupid.

See, JGlass? Once again, Jordan fans have all the excuses in the world for why Jordan's failures don't count.

Mike was better.

Almost all evidence to the contrary.

Jordan couldn't take three separate teams (two cities) to the NBA Finals. Jordan couldn't take inferior players and make them Eastern Conference champions. Jordan isn't in the Top 10 of triple-doubles (and outside of one season, almost never recorded them). Jordan didn't go to 7 straight NBA Finals. Jordan didn't have other players flocking to join him in Chicago. Jordan wasn't as good of a passer (or assist man), not as good of a rebounder, not as versatile of a defender and not as good of a teammate.

Jordan has only two things going for him, scoring and 6-0 Finals. And one of those is a team accomplishment, not an individual. And I'd argue the multiple team accomplishments I listed above exceed Jordan's.

Funny how you want to talk "better teammate", "better person" and completely unverifiable and non tangible stuff

Just because you're unaware of the facts doesn't mean it is unverifiable and non-tangible. Don't confuse your ignorance with subjectivity.

that doesn't matter as far as who was a better player

Uh, absolutely it does.

Seriously, how are you a coach and say such stupid things?

but you didn't touch "better competitor".

Two reasons:

1) It's a wash
2) There's zero way to measure that

Bron got cramps and tapped out, Mike scored 38 with the flu and hit the game winner.

Again you say blatantly stupid things. You can't play with leg cramps. It is impossible. If you actually played ball and/or coached ball, like you claim, you know this. I played multiple games when I was sick...but when I knocked knees with a kid from another team, I was out the rest of the game.

You can't play without your legs. You can play feeling ill, but you can't play if you don't have wheels. Seriously, stop saying stupid things.

Show me where I slammed Bron?

Show me where I said you did?

Grow up.

Stop being a dumbass and learn how to read.

 

[LBGetBack]

1 rebound a game is fairly significant statistically, almost a 17% difference. Over the course of a 10 year career, that's over 800 rebounds. If LeBron played 13 seasons, as Jordan did, that is more than 1,000 rebounds difference. And if we look at LeBron's total rebounds, he's at 7707 rebounds while Jordan is at 6672 rebounds. And that's with Jordan playing in 11 more games to this point.

I guess your math ability is about as good as your reading comprehension.

You must have missed the fact passing is about far more than just assists.

Just stop. You clearly don't understand the game of basketball and you're just embarrassing yourself.

Also, if we're talking about assists, in 11 less games, LeBron already has almost 2000 more assists. Seriously, just stop.

Says the person who continuously says stupid and ignorant things and makes a hypocrite of himself.

Quite possibly the weakest argument I've ever seen in this debate. Here, I'll play this game.

"If LeBron had Kobe, Steph and Durant on his team, don't you think he could have won 8 NBA championships in his career?"

Stop saying stupid things.

Of course we know. We KNOW Michael Jordan was a first rate jerk whose only teammates disliked him. We KNOW he punched his teammates in practice. We know he was selfish. Hell, the Ringer just had a good article on The Jordan Rules just the other day. Here's the link: https://theringer.com/the-jordan-ru...ith-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-48b12d6d3e15

We also know LeBron James has basically become the first player/GM in modern basketball history. We can see him actively changing the balance of power in the league from front offices to players. Guys want to play with LeBron. Some guys (Miller, Jones) follow LeBron from team to team. Others see drastic improvements in their game (Irving) and emotions (Smith).

We know LeBron is a great teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. We know Jordan was not a good teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. So you keep laughing and the rest of us knowledgable basketball fans will keep laughing at you.

What discussion is needed? They went to one NBA Finals and lost by double digits in three of their losses. They were down 3 games to none before winning a couple. Sure, the Bulls were a great team, but what about the Sonics make you think they were capable of winning the title in any other year? They didn't in '94 or '95, with the '95 team having essentially the same roster and losing in the first round. They didn't go back to the Finals in '97, despite having basically the same team from the year before, losing in the second round.

What makes you think they were so special in '96 they just got unlucky to face the Bulls, as Cavs fans can legitimately argue this year (injures in 2015 and GS behemoth in 2017)?

No, I know enough about them. You're just saying stupid things, which simply cannot be supported with any evidence except for "uh huh".

...okay? What does that have to do with his ability to play basketball? Again you show just how little you understand basketball.

Let's put it another way. In 2007, CC Sabathia went 19-7 and won the AL Cy Young Award with an ERA of 3.21. Does that mean he was a better pitcher in 2007 than Pedro Martinez was in 2002, when Pedro went 20-4 with a 2.26 ERA, but finished 2 in the Cy Young voting? Was Steve Nash in 2006 a better basketball player than LeBron James in any of the last three years?

Your arguments are ridiculous. Just stop.

You don't think a sharp shooting 7 footer is a tougher matchup? Seriously, do you even watch basketball?
You have clearly demonstrated how little you understand basketball on multiple occasions. You should probably refrain from insulting anyone else's post on the subject.



You are the one who brought it up! You (and you've done this a couple of times since then) tried to insinuate my knowledge of basketball must be lacking because I haven't watched for some arbitrary number of years you decided mattered. We KNOW this was your intention because you've brought it up repeatedly in your posts.

You are such a dumbass. You tried to impeach my position by attempting to undermine my position by your arbitrary criteria, but when your argument is quickly and definitively squashed, you now try to claim it didn't matter.

That is dishonest, just as dishonest as you shaking your head about giving credit to LeBron for beating a team who beat him while simultaneously trying to give credit to Jordan for beating the Pistons, a hypocrisy for which you still haven't acknowledged and apologized.

Take your dishonesty someplace else.

You brought it up, not me.

And how long I've watched the NBA has nothing to do with my ability to compare basketball players and teams.

Then how can you be so damn ignorant to the game? How can you coach basketball and be friends with a coach and yet say such stupid things like arguing Michael is as good of a passer because assists? That's such a stupid thing to say and any coach worth a lick would know that.

If those truly are your credentials, why would you say such blatantly stupid things?



Yes, THAT'S why they said it. It wasn't because Jordan would openly pout if he wasn't getting enough shots. It's not because Jordan CLEARLY would not trust his teammates or because Jordan undermined his coaches. No, it's because of 75 year olds.

You're so ridiculous.

Did he win the NBA Finals? No? Then he was a failure...at least that's what so many LeBron detractors try to argue. And in case you want to argue you didn't say that, refer back to whom I was responding.

See, JGlass? Once again, Jordan fans have all the excuses in the world for why Jordan's failures don't count.

Almost all evidence to the contrary.

Jordan couldn't take three separate teams (two cities) to the NBA Finals. Jordan couldn't take inferior players and make them Eastern Conference champions. Jordan isn't in the Top 10 of triple-doubles (and outside of one season, almost never recorded them). Jordan didn't go to 7 straight NBA Finals. Jordan didn't have other players flocking to join him in Chicago. Jordan wasn't as good of a passer (or assist man), not as good of a rebounder, not as versatile of a defender and not as good of a teammate.

Jordan has only two things going for him, scoring and 6-0 Finals. And one of those is a team accomplishment, not an individual. And I'd argue the multiple team accomplishments I listed above exceed Jordan's.

Just because you're unaware of the facts doesn't mean it is unverifiable and non-tangible. Don't confuse your ignorance with subjectivity.

Uh, absolutely it does.

Seriously, how are you a coach and say such stupid things?

Two reasons:

1) It's a wash
2) There's zero way to measure that



Again you say blatantly stupid things. You can't play with leg cramps. It is impossible. If you actually played ball and/or coached ball, like you claim, you know this. I played multiple games when I was sick...but when I knocked knees with a kid from another team, I was out the rest of the game.

You can't play without your legs. You can play feeling ill, but you can't play if you don't have wheels. Seriously, stop saying stupid things.

Show me where I said you did?
Stop being a dumbass and learn how to read.

LOL!!!! You're mad as shit! Hilarious. Harping on 1 rebound per game difference, don't understand the difference between their respective roles in different offenses on different teams, don't understand that 2nd in MVP voting means Clyde was better that year(Dirk taller though!), and throwing out juvenile insults the whole post! Bahahahahahahahhahahahaha! Mike better. Cry! I'm sorry that you have no ability to evaluate skills, beyond telling me what the total counting stats compiled over years and years are. Sad.

By the way, I rooted against Mike in most of those finals. I'm not a Jordan fan, I'm a Lakers fan. Magic was my guy. Mike better than LeBron though. They both better than Kobe and Magic.(Kareem though...). See, I'm not biased like you. Just calling it like it is.

 

[Slyfox696]

LOL!!!! You're mad as shit! Hilarious.

What makes you think I'm mad? You're stupid, that doesn't make me mad. You have posted dishonestly, that doesn't make me mad. That is a reflection of you, not me.

Harping on 1 rebound per game difference

Over 1000 rebounds at this point in their careers. Stop saying stupid things.

don't understand the difference between their respective roles in different offenses on different teams

Of course I do...but both men create their own roles. And LeBron plays more of a team game and Jordan was more in the role of scorer.

I have no idea why you think this argument helped you, when I essentially made the same argument earlier in this thread.

don't understand that 2nd in MVP voting means Clyde was better that year(Dirk taller though!)

So Sabathia was better than Martinez? Nash better than LeBron?

Stop saying stupid things.

and throwing out juvenile insults the whole post! Bahahahahahahahhahahahaha!

Calling you a dumbass is accurate.

I'm sorry that you have no ability to evaluate skills, beyond telling me what the total counting stats compiled over years and years are. Sad.

I'm the one who has been evaluating skills...you're the one talking about Jordan being better because, "To me it comes down to him not being nearly as good of a shooter off the dribble as Jordan."

Seriously, stop lying. Your dishonesty is totally unbecoming. If you can't handle a mature conversation, if you can't handle honest debate, just leave the thread. This post is clearly you recognizing you can't hang in this debate, so you're just saying the stupidest things possible, no matter how dishonest you have to be in order to post it.

See, I'm not biased like you. Just calling it like it is.

You think presenting copius amounts of evidence is biased? I'm not biased, I state facts. Stop lying. You've done it so much in this thread and I don't have tolerance for liars.

Unbiasedly, LeBron is the greatest to have ever played. It's just that simple.

 

[LBGetBack]

What makes you think I'm mad? You're stupid, that doesn't make me mad. You have posted dishonestly, that doesn't make me mad. That is a reflection of you, not me.



Over 1000 rebounds at this point in their careers. Stop saying stupid things.

Of course I do...but both men create their own roles. And LeBron plays more of a team game and Jordan was more in the role of scorer.

I have no idea why you think this argument helped you, when I essentially made the same argument earlier in this thread.

So Sabathia was better than Martinez? Nash better than LeBron?

Stop saying stupid things.

Calling you a dumbass is accurate.

I'm the one who has been evaluating skills...you're the one talking about Jordan being better because, "To me it comes down to him not being nearly as good of a shooter off the dribble as Jordan."

Seriously, stop lying. Your dishonesty is totally unbecoming. If you can't handle a mature conversation, if you can't handle honest debate, just leave the thread. This post is clearly you recognizing you can't hang in this debate, so you're just saying the stupidest things possible, no matter how dishonest you have to be in order to post it.

You think presenting copius amounts of evidence is biased? I'm not biased, I state facts. Stop lying. You've done it so much in this thread and I don't have tolerance for liars.

Unbiasedly, LeBron is the greatest to have ever played. It's just that simple.

1. You mad as shit. Pretending you aren't makes it funnier.

2. You want to pretend like 1 rebound per game on average is s lot. LMAO! So dishonest. My man....it's one board per game.

3. You clearly don't understand the difference in roles. Like I said,Mike ran point for Doug Collins and averaged 33, 8, and 8. He could've averaged 8 assists every year. Great passer. Phil's offense and Pippen's development as a playmaker led Mike to doing what was best for his team, not stat padding triple doubles.

4. You ain't said SHIT! Just a bunch of rambling, deflecting, personal attacks, and focusing on who was a nicer guy. Terrible posting.

Jordan > Lebron.....cry. Kareem> Lebron too. Cry some more.

 

[JGlass]

1. You mad as shit. Pretending you aren't makes it funnier.

2. You want to pretend like 1 rebound per game on average is s lot. LMAO! So dishonest. My man....it's one board per game.

3. You clearly don't understand the difference in roles. Like I said,Mike ran point for Doug Collins and averaged 33, 8, and 8. He could've averaged 8 assists every year. Great passer. Phil's offense and Pippen's development as a playmaker led Mike to doing what was best for his team, not stat padding triple doubles.

4. You ain't said SHIT! Just a bunch of rambling, deflecting, personal attacks, and focusing on who was a nicer guy. Terrible posting.

Jordan > Lebron.....cry. Kareem> Lebron too. Cry some more.

For someone who has taken so much pride in being old enough to have seen the entirety of Jordan's career, you sure act like you're too young to have even see all of Andrew Wiggins' career. Regardless of whether or not Sly is mad (and he isn't, I've seen Sly debate for years and this is just run of the mill with him (and before you accuse us of ganging up on you, most of the times I've read Sly's debates it's because he was debating me)), you have yet to provide any insightful argument as to why Michael Jordan is a better player than LeBron. Shit, with the way you've been debating, I'd say Michael Jordan shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as LeBron.

Now that's obviously not true, but you need to provide some more compelling arguments than, "I know basketball better than you and this is why I say."

Per game stats are great for comparing players in the same season, but across careers it's not a great measure because it means that the worst seasons a player had have equal weight to the best seasons the player ever had. Do you really want to compare Jordan's Wizards career to LeBron's time on the Heat? And is it really fair to compare LeBron's years on those shit Cavs teams to Jordan's championship years? Of course not, and that's why the per game stats are not super useful when comparing careers.

Not to mention, LeBron's per game stats still have time to change, perhaps drastically. I wouldn't be surprised to see his PPG and APG stats grow as he continues his career, and I wouldn't be surprised if his RPG starts to trickle down.

Furthermore, your speculation about how many more assists Jordan could have gotten per game is just foolishness. Even is he was able to get those extra assists, what do you think happens to his PPG if he's spending more time dishing and less time getting open for shots and cutting to the basket? I'll give you a hint: it wouldn't go up.

And as Sly pointed out: great passing is about more than getting the assist, and nobody could have displayed that more clearly than LeBron James this season. How many times did LeBron throw a perfectly placed pass to an outlet man off the drive for that guy to swing it to an open shooter for a clean 3 pointer? It happened multiple times a game, and that's not even counting all the fast breaks that LeBron started with pinpoint accuracy on the breakout pass.

Finally, I can't help but point out the irony of you accusing Sly of not saying shit when you have spent half your time in this thread (which I again remind you is about comparing LeBron James and Michael Jordan) insisting that you think comparing the two of them is stupid and saying you'd refuse to do it, and then accusing people who say LeBron is better than Jordan of getting upset when the only person in this thread who has shown any signs of immaturity and hurt feelings is you.

If you keep throwing all of your toys out of the crib, we're going to stop giving them back to you eventually.

 

[LBGetBack]

For someone who has taken so much pride in being old enough to have seen the entirety of Jordan's career, you sure act like you're too young to have even see all of Andrew Wiggins' career. Regardless of whether or not Sly is mad (and he isn't, I've seen Sly debate for years and this is just run of the mill with him (and before you accuse us of ganging up on you, most of the times I've read Sly's debates it's because he was debating me)), you have yet to provide any insightful argument as to why Michael Jordan is a better player than LeBron. Shit, with the way you've been debating, I'd say Michael Jordan shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as LeBron.

Now that's obviously not true, but you need to provide some more compelling arguments than, "I know basketball better than you and this is why I say."

Per game stats are great for comparing players in the same season, but across careers it's not a great measure because it means that the worst seasons a player had have equal weight to the best seasons the player ever had. Do you really want to compare Jordan's Wizards career to LeBron's time on the Heat? And is it really fair to compare LeBron's years on those shit Cavs teams to Jordan's championship years? Of course not, and that's why the per game stats are not super useful when comparing careers.

Not to mention, LeBron's per game stats still have time to change, perhaps drastically. I wouldn't be surprised to see his PPG and APG stats grow as he continues his career, and I wouldn't be surprised if his RPG starts to trickle down.

Furthermore, your speculation about how many more assists Jordan could have gotten per game is just foolishness. Even is he was able to get those extra assists, what do you think happens to his PPG if he's spending more time dishing and less time getting open for shots and cutting to the basket? I'll give you a hint: it wouldn't go up.

And as Sly pointed out: great passing is about more than getting the assist, and nobody could have displayed that more clearly than LeBron James this season. How many times did LeBron throw a perfectly placed pass to an outlet man off the drive for that guy to swing it to an open shooter for a clean 3 pointer? It happened multiple times a game, and that's not even counting all the fast breaks that LeBron started with pinpoint accuracy on the breakout pass.

Finally, I can't help but point out the irony of you accusing Sly of not saying shit when you have spent half your time in this thread (which I again remind you is about comparing LeBron James and Michael Jordan) insisting that you think comparing the two of them is stupid and saying you'd refuse to do it, and then accusing people who say LeBron is better than Jordan of getting upset when the only person in this thread who has shown any signs of immaturity and hurt feelings is you.

If you keep throwing all of your toys out of the crib, we're going to stop giving them back to you eventually.

Man y'all got one thing in common......you're good at being wordy as shit while saying absolutely nothing important. I'll be real, I've been skimming all of these posts. Long winded as shit!

Once again, I told you in my first post why Jordan was better. I told you in my first post that Lebron was a better passer. This clown wanted to act like it's not close, and hid behind Lebron is a more "versatile" defender. LMAO. Don't know if you've noticed but Lebron was never moving those puppies as quick as Mike even at his peak....and he damn sure ain't at his peak anymore at that end. My man makes the occasional great helpside or open court block and y'all act like he still locking cats. Bron ain't that good on D anymore and his team was trash on that end. Mike was a great defender even at age 35.. I ain't budging there.

That clown wants to gloss over the major difference....Mike could shoot! Lebron gotta get to the rack, and he can't maintain that. He tries to do it all game and he's gassed for the stretch. He'd be so much better with a J. Jordan was the ultimate closer. Lebron kicking to Kyle Korver instead of taking it at Draymond(5 fouls), or pulling up and burying it. He ain't built for those moments and never has been.

Still a top 3 player of all time. Some of you act like that's an insult.

Y'all want to use total stats for rebounds(lol)...how about you get at me with the TOTAL All Defense selections. I'll wait....

Also, lol at "Lebron's ppg and apg will continue to grow"...uh, only if he retires at his peak. Otherwise his last few years will bring down his averages, like they do for everybody.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

LeBron can't catch Jordan. That ship sailed when he sailed from Cleveland to Miami and then sunk when he went back to the team that managed four #1 draft picks in like ten years.

His story just doesn't fit the narrative for the greatest. It started on the right path - once in a generation althete stays near home to help a fledgling city and team grow - but once he left Cleveland, the narrative took another turn. He became the guy using the system to get ahead. Not unfairly, mind you, but still not the way a story is supposed to unfold. As far as an analogy, LeBron is the guy who grabbed the brass ring by using the Money In The Bank briefcase as opposed to just beating his opponent in a traditional match. OK, not the best analogy but you should get the point. He furthered weakened his position when he left a weakened Miami and went back to a team with significant assets.

Is LeBron a better player than Jordan? Maybe, but I don't think so. Good arguments can be made by both sides (none have been made in this thread). His longevity, and consistency as the best player in the game for many years is phenomenal and something Jordan cheated us out of. The fact that LeBron is playing at a time when health and exercise science are greatly improved. Then again Jordan have been taking some kick ass 90's drugs to be better. But LeBron as the "greatest", certainly not. His desire to win is unquestionably admirable but his methods just leave him out of the conversation to be the "greatest".

Please don't reply LB.

 

[LBGetBack]

LeBron can't catch Jordan. That ship sailed when he sailed from Cleveland to Miami and then sunk when he went back to the team that managed four #1 draft picks in like ten years.

His story just doesn't fit the narrative for the greatest. It started on the right path - once in a generation althete stays near home to help a fledgling city and team grow - but once he left Cleveland, the narrative took another turn. He became the guy using the system to get ahead. Not unfairly, mind you, but still not the way a story is supposed to unfold. As far as an analogy, LeBron is the guy who grabbed the brass ring by using the Money In The Bank briefcase as opposed to just beating his opponent in a traditional match. OK, not the best analogy but you should get the point. He furthered weakened his position when he left a weakened Miami and went back to a team with significant assets.

Is LeBron a better player than Jordan? Maybe, but I don't think so. Good arguments can be made by both sides (none have been made in this thread). His longevity, and consistency as the best player in the game for many years is phenomenal and something Jordan cheated us out of. The fact that LeBron is playing at a time when health and exercise science are greatly improved. Then again Jordan have been taking some kick ass 90's drugs to be better. But LeBron as the "greatest", certainly not. His desire to win is unquestionably admirable but his methods just leave him out of the conversation to be the "greatest".

Please don't reply LB.

Man, shut up. I do what I want.

Lebron got the modern health and exercise benefits yet Mike was the one playing all 82 games 5 times. Bron has never done it. Mike ain't take no vacations to Florida to get his mind right for 2 weeks in the middle of the season.

Since this "better teammate" is being used over and over, Ima play the tougher guy and fiercer competitor card over and over.....because that's way more important. Don't matter if Mike got in a scrap in practice or if a teammate hated him, they got the job done when the lights were on. Teammates ain't gotta be friends or like each other.

 

[LBGetBack]

1 rebound a game is fairly significant statistically, almost a 17% difference. Over the course of a 10 year career, that's over 800 rebounds. If LeBron played 13 seasons, as Jordan did, that is more than 1,000 rebounds difference. And if we look at LeBron's total rebounds, he's at 7707 rebounds while Jordan is at 6672 rebounds. And that's with Jordan playing in 11 more games to this point.

I guess your math ability is about as good as your reading comprehension.

You must have missed the fact passing is about far more than just assists.

Just stop. You clearly don't understand the game of basketball and you're just embarrassing yourself.

Also, if we're talking about assists, in 11 less games, LeBron already has almost 2000 more assists. Seriously, just stop.

Says the person who continuously says stupid and ignorant things and makes a hypocrite of himself.

Quite possibly the weakest argument I've ever seen in this debate. Here, I'll play this game.

"If LeBron had Kobe, Steph and Durant on his team, don't you think he could have won 8 NBA championships in his career?"

Stop saying stupid things.

Of course we know. We KNOW Michael Jordan was a first rate jerk whose only teammates disliked him. We KNOW he punched his teammates in practice. We know he was selfish. Hell, the Ringer just had a good article on The Jordan Rules just the other day. Here's the link: https://theringer.com/the-jordan-ru...ith-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-48b12d6d3e15

We also know LeBron James has basically become the first player/GM in modern basketball history. We can see him actively changing the balance of power in the league from front offices to players. Guys want to play with LeBron. Some guys (Miller, Jones) follow LeBron from team to team. Others see drastic improvements in their game (Irving) and emotions (Smith).

We know LeBron is a great teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. We know Jordan was not a good teammate and plenty of people have come out and said so. So you keep laughing and the rest of us knowledgable basketball fans will keep laughing at you.

What discussion is needed? They went to one NBA Finals and lost by double digits in three of their losses. They were down 3 games to none before winning a couple. Sure, the Bulls were a great team, but what about the Sonics make you think they were capable of winning the title in any other year? They didn't in '94 or '95, with the '95 team having essentially the same roster and losing in the first round. They didn't go back to the Finals in '97, despite having basically the same team from the year before, losing in the second round.

What makes you think they were so special in '96 they just got unlucky to face the Bulls, as Cavs fans can legitimately argue this year (injures in 2015 and GS behemoth in 2017)?

No, I know enough about them. You're just saying stupid things, which simply cannot be supported with any evidence except for "uh huh".

...okay? What does that have to do with his ability to play basketball? Again you show just how little you understand basketball.

Let's put it another way. In 2007, CC Sabathia went 19-7 and won the AL Cy Young Award with an ERA of 3.21. Does that mean he was a better pitcher in 2007 than Pedro Martinez was in 2002, when Pedro went 20-4 with a 2.26 ERA, but finished 2 in the Cy Young voting? Was Steve Nash in 2006 a better basketball player than LeBron James in any of the last three years?

Your arguments are ridiculous. Just stop.

You don't think a sharp shooting 7 footer is a tougher matchup? Seriously, do you even watch basketball?
You have clearly demonstrated how little you understand basketball on multiple occasions. You should probably refrain from insulting anyone else's post on the subject.



You are the one who brought it up! You (and you've done this a couple of times since then) tried to insinuate my knowledge of basketball must be lacking because I haven't watched for some arbitrary number of years you decided mattered. We KNOW this was your intention because you've brought it up repeatedly in your posts.

You are such a dumbass. You tried to impeach my position by attempting to undermine my position by your arbitrary criteria, but when your argument is quickly and definitively squashed, you now try to claim it didn't matter.

That is dishonest, just as dishonest as you shaking your head about giving credit to LeBron for beating a team who beat him while simultaneously trying to give credit to Jordan for beating the Pistons, a hypocrisy for which you still haven't acknowledged and apologized.

Take your dishonesty someplace else.

You brought it up, not me.

And how long I've watched the NBA has nothing to do with my ability to compare basketball players and teams.

Then how can you be so damn ignorant to the game? How can you coach basketball and be friends with a coach and yet say such stupid things like arguing Michael is as good of a passer because assists? That's such a stupid thing to say and any coach worth a lick would know that.

If those truly are your credentials, why would you say such blatantly stupid things?



Yes, THAT'S why they said it. It wasn't because Jordan would openly pout if he wasn't getting enough shots. It's not because Jordan CLEARLY would not trust his teammates or because Jordan undermined his coaches. No, it's because of 75 year olds.

You're so ridiculous.

Did he win the NBA Finals? No? Then he was a failure...at least that's what so many LeBron detractors try to argue. And in case you want to argue you didn't say that, refer back to whom I was responding.

See, JGlass? Once again, Jordan fans have all the excuses in the world for why Jordan's failures don't count.

Almost all evidence to the contrary.

Jordan couldn't take three separate teams (two cities) to the NBA Finals. Jordan couldn't take inferior players and make them Eastern Conference champions. Jordan isn't in the Top 10 of triple-doubles (and outside of one season, almost never recorded them). Jordan didn't go to 7 straight NBA Finals. Jordan didn't have other players flocking to join him in Chicago. Jordan wasn't as good of a passer (or assist man), not as good of a rebounder, not as versatile of a defender and not as good of a teammate.

Jordan has only two things going for him, scoring and 6-0 Finals. And one of those is a team accomplishment, not an individual. And I'd argue the multiple team accomplishments I listed above exceed Jordan's.

Just because you're unaware of the facts doesn't mean it is unverifiable and non-tangible. Don't confuse your ignorance with subjectivity.

Uh, absolutely it does.

Seriously, how are you a coach and say such stupid things?

Two reasons:

1) It's a wash
2) There's zero way to measure that



Again you say blatantly stupid things. You can't play with leg cramps. It is impossible. If you actually played ball and/or coached ball, like you claim, you know this. I played multiple games when I was sick...but when I knocked knees with a kid from another team, I was out the rest of the game.

You can't play without your legs. You can play feeling ill, but you can't play if you don't have wheels. Seriously, stop saying stupid things.

Show me where I said you did?
Stop being a dumbass and learn how to read.

Man, I finally read through more of this. Nah. Nah, son. Nah. You don't get to just lie and talk out of both sides of your mouth. No way to measure "better competitor"? But you can measure "better teammate"? FOH.

Mike didn't have players "flocking to join him"? Yeah, you are absolutely CLUELESS on 90s basketball and how the league worked. Find situations where guys "flocked" to play with anyone? You out your league here. Better googling so you can pretend to be up on shit that happened when you were 4. Horrible attempt at making a point.

I like how you dismiss 6 championships as a team accomplishment, but then proceed to list team accomplishments for Lebron and claim they are superior......took "inferior" players to the finals! LOL! Yeah, that tops winning it all. Should we even get into how HORRIBLE the East has been for almost Lebron's entire career? You wanted to talk about finals opponents. Why ignore that the East has mostly BLOWN in the entire 2000's?

And LOL at your stupid 1995 thing. He came back in MARCH after a 21 month layoff. Lost to an Orlando team that would smash 99% of Lebron's playoff opponents....and probably a lot of Lebron's teams too. Shook the rust off nicely the following season though didn't he?

And then you go the "no title, then it's a failure" routine because some other imaginary ********s "say that about Lebron"? FOH. Don't say no stupid shit like that again. I brought up old ass sports writers saying Jordan would never win because that's on record. That was the narrative those clowns created. They tried the same thing with Shaq. Old white sportswriters usually sucked back then.

 

[Slyfox696]

1. You mad as shit. Pretending you aren't makes it funnier.

2. You want to pretend like 1 rebound per game on average is s lot. LMAO! So dishonest. My man....it's one board per game.

3. You clearly don't understand the difference in roles. Like I said,Mike ran point for Doug Collins and averaged 33, 8, and 8. He could've averaged 8 assists every year. Great passer. Phil's offense and Pippen's development as a playmaker led Mike to doing what was best for his team, not stat padding triple doubles.

4. You ain't said SHIT! Just a bunch of rambling, deflecting, personal attacks, and focusing on who was a nicer guy. Terrible posting.

Jordan > Lebron.....cry. Kareem> Lebron too. Cry some more.

1. You're lying, as usual. You're an idiot.
2. You're trying to argue over 1000 rebounds isn't statistically significant. You're an idiot.
3. I already addressed this from you and exposed it for the stupidity it is. You're an idiot.
4. If that's really what you've gotten from what I've posted, then your reading comprehension skills are the equivalent of a 13 year old. You're an idiot.

Man, I finally read through more of this. Nah. Nah, son. Nah. You don't get to just lie and talk out of both sides of your mouth. No way to measure "better competitor"? But you can measure "better teammate"? FOH.

Mike didn't have players "flocking to join him"? Yeah, you are absolutely CLUELESS on 90s basketball and how the league worked. Find situations where guys "flocked" to play with anyone? You out your league here. Better googling so you can pretend to be up on shit that happened when you were 4. Horrible attempt at making a point.

I like how you dismiss 6 championships as a team accomplishment, but then proceed to list team accomplishments for Lebron and claim they are superior......took "inferior" players to the finals! LOL! Yeah, that tops winning it all. Should we even get into how HORRIBLE the East has been for almost Lebron's entire career? You wanted to talk about finals opponents. Why ignore that the East has mostly BLOWN in the entire 2000's?

And LOL at your stupid 1995 thing. He came back in MARCH after a 21 month layoff. Lost to an Orlando team that would smash 99% of Lebron's playoff opponents....and probably a lot of Lebron's teams too. Shook the rust off nicely the following season though didn't he?

And then you go the "no title, then it's a failure" routine because some other imaginary ********s "say that about Lebron"? FOH. Don't say no stupid shit like that again. I brought up old ass sports writers saying Jordan would never win because that's on record. That was the narrative those clowns created. They tried the same thing with Shaq. Old white sportswriters usually sucked back then.

1. Competitiveness is an internal trait. Being a good teammate is not. Which is why one can be measured and the other not. You're an idiot.
2. No one flocked to play with Jordan. They flock to play with LeBron. This is not hard to understand, for anyone who is not an idiot. You're an idiot.
3. 6 championships is a team accomplishment and I said LeBron's team accomplishments exceed Jordan's. Anyone with a 6th grade reading level would understand what I said. You're an idiot.
4. And, again, you're making excuses for Jordan's failings. You're an idiot.
5. You literally took something I said to JGlass and are now pretending I said it to you. Once more, you show a pathetic level of reading comprehension. You're an idiot.

You really should stop posting, you're exposing yourself as an incredibly stupid poster. Regardless of your ignorance of basketball, the fact you consistently show zero understanding of what you read reflects upon your low level of intelligence. Seriously, just stop.

 

[LBGetBack]

1. You're lying, as usual. You're an idiot.
2. You're trying to argue over 1000 rebounds isn't statistically significant. You're an idiot.
3. I already addressed this from you and exposed it for the stupidity it is. You're an idiot.
4. If that's really what you've gotten from what I've posted, then your reading comprehension skills are the equivalent of a 13 year old. You're an idiot.


1. Competitiveness is an internal trait. Being a good teammate is not. Which is why one can be measured and the other not. You're an idiot.
2. No one flocked to play with Jordan. They flock to play with LeBron. This is not hard to understand, for anyone who is not an idiot. You're an idiot.
3. 6 championships is a team accomplishment and I said LeBron's team accomplishments exceed Jordan's. Anyone with a 6th grade reading level would understand what I said. You're an idiot.
4. And, again, you're making excuses for Jordan's failings. You're an idiot.
5. You literally took something I said to JGlass and are now pretending I said it to you. Once more, you show a pathetic level of reading comprehension. You're an idiot.

You really should stop posting, you're exposing yourself as an incredibly stupid poster. Regardless of your ignorance of basketball, the fact you consistently show zero understanding of what you read reflects upon your low level of intelligence. Seriously, just stop.

More deflecting and refusing to answer. Couldn't come up with any examples of 80s 90s players "flocking" to play with others? How come? Mad? Going to the finals is better than winning the title? Noted. I made you so mad that you're just arguing anything now. You all up in your feelings. Just a real hoe ass dude. Hard to talk sports with hoe ass dudes. No wonder you're all on this "Mike was mean and Lebron is nice" hoe shit.

You're too young. Perhaps someday you'll grow up and have a bit more perspective on these things, chap. Until then.... just shut the fuck up when grown men are talking hoops, hoe.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I hate the quote game, but what the hell.

Let's ignore for a moment the difficulty in comparing two different types of players who played two different positions in two different eras and pretend there can be a valid argument.

An argument that I can't believe hasn't been brought up by others. They're 2 different positions. Frankly, I'd argue Jordan averaging only 1 rebound less than someone at a position closer to the basket (and in this era James sometimes plays center) is an argument for Jordan, and not against him.

Jordan was also a shooting guard, which, by definition, doesn't pass as much. James, as basically a point forward, plays a much (and it's not even close) different style. Besides, it's not like Jordan couldn't pass the ball well. In year 1997 he made a pass that seemed to work out well. I know it's only one example, but James seems to do this way too often.

And different eras. Screw that argument about Jordan/James. I think it's more interesting about teams. People are comparing the 96 Bulls to this years Warriors. Which rules do they play by? That alone would likely determine the winner.

If you take Michael Jordan's six championships, which are team accomplishments, out of the equation, by what metric can you claim Jordan is better than LeBron? He wasn't a better (or more versatile) defender or a better ball handler. He was a better scorer (though with a lower shooting percentage), but not nearly as good of a passer or rebounder. And, simply put, he wasn't as good of a teammate as LeBron.

If you want to refer to all championships as team accomplishments, then any statement regarding James carrying his teams there are null and void.

And better shot? Barely in terms of FG%. And that's mostly because James's jump shot was so bad early on he drove all the time. He has developed it over time and even has a better 3P%. But considering he takes 4 3's a game compared to Jordan's 1.7, he should be better. Their careers parellel a little in that area because as Jordan aged he developed the turn around fadeaway (which imo is one of the prettiest shots ever).

Better defender? Since you're such a nut for numbers, I will refer to Phenom's original post as my argument.

So when you take the ONE team accomplishment out of the equation, how can you say Jordan was better? The fact is if the roles had been reversed, if LeBron had come before Jordan and Jordan had grown up in the 24/7 social media era, Jordan would never be as heralded as he is today and LeBron would be the ghost everyone tries to catch. Jordan's gambling and womanizing would have been far more prominent in the headlines, his merchandising would not be revolutionary and the Bulls wouldn't have been able to put a quality team around him.

I don't care about any of this in regards to the game of basketball. You can speculate all you like.

They, along with Wilt and possibly Kareem, are the greatest basketball players ever. But if you want to ignore the difficulties in comparing them and do so anyways, there's just not any argument which can be made to support Jordan over LeBron, aside from pointing to the accomplishment of 12 guys, numerous coaches and front office personnel. And that's not really the best way to compare individuals.

I'd throw Magic and Bird in there as well. I'd even argue removing Wilt. Though a stat machine, championships do matter to most everyone but you, Sly

So what you're saying is that Jordan is better than LeBron because the early 90s Bulls front office was better than the mid-00s Cavs front office, and because people actually want to play with LeBron and people didn't want to play with Jordan?

So what's your excuse for James in these Cleveland years? Or even in his Miami years? He's certainly had plenty of help. They were easily the best superteam in the league in Miami (partly by his own colluding). 50% seems like a failure to me. Shall I link the "how many championships...?" clip here?
Hell, he is the GM of the Cavs, regardless of what position someone else in the organization holds. If you can attempt to use Jordan's personal life transgressions as an argument, James's abilities as a de facto GM surely are in play. Also, besides Pippen, who else did Jordan have that was anything but a role player? Bill Cartwright? John Paxson? Horace Grant? Not exactly world beaters.

See a lot of this really differs on our personalities (obviously). You can quote James's stats all day and say he's better. I could quote Jordan's stats alone and still make a fair argument (because player A vs. player B, with no position, era or any other information provided, anyone would take James). But not everything is reflected in the stat sheet. What I can also do is say, without a doubt, if I need someone to win me a basketball game, I pick Michael Jordan 10 times out of 10. Would James certainly be a good #2 choice? Definitely. Though if I'm picking a floor general with those abilities I'd probably still take Magic (a much more fun, or at least equal, comparison on who's better btw). But James would certainly help my team. The thing is though, with the game on the line near the end, Jordan will take that ball, score under most any circumstance, and likely hit the game winning shot. James, he might be the the one to pass it to him...

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

When LeBron's career is over, do you think it possible that he will have surpassed Jordan as the greatest of all time? Is he already close? Does anyone think that he's already surpassed Jordan? Let me know your opinions.

I don't really watch Basketball but most of my friends do and of course the NBA gets a lot of attention that's too hard to ignore.

My feeling is no, LeBron will never surpass Jordan. That's not to say LeBron isn't a great athlete and I always find it pretty pathetic for people who make fun of him in the internet. The guy has won 3 Championships and made it to 7 Finals (I think). Until very recently in the NHL Sidney Crosby only made it to the finals twice and had one Championship (though he's won 2 in recent years).

Plus I am sure if I were a Cavs fan I would consider LeBron a folk hero for giving the franchise it's first Championship. And I am sure Heat fans are happy with his brief stint due to the 4 finals appearance and 2 Championships during that period.

But better than Jordan no. And even if he wins another 3 Championships I can't see him being better than Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Tim Duncan either.

And the reason for that is because he switched teams to chase (and eventually get) his Championship rings. When you think about the greatest players of any team sport you imagine players playing for one team and becoming franchise players where they have become synonymous with that team.

Sure Jordan played for Washington but his glory years were all with the bulls.

When you think of The Bulls you think of Jordan, when you think of The Patriots you think of Tom Brady, when you think of the Oilers you think of Wayne Gretzky.

Can you really associate LeBron with The Heat or The Cavs?

 

[Slyfox696]

When you think about the greatest players of any team sport you imagine players playing for one team and becoming franchise players where they have become synonymous with that team.

Like Babe Ruth going from the Red Sox to the Yankees, Barry Bonds from the Pirates to the Giants or Greg Maddux from the Cubs to the Braves? Wayne Gretzky with the Oilers, King, Blues and Rangers? Peyton Manning with the Colts and Broncos, Joe Montanta with the 49ers and the Chiefs or even Reggie White from the Eagles to the Packers? How about Kareem going from the Bucks to the Lakers or Wilt playing for the Warriors, 76ers and Lakers?

Out of curiosity, where are you getting this idea the greatest players never changed teams during their greatest years?

Sure Jordan played for Washington but his glory years were all with the bulls.

And again with the excuses why Jordan doesn't have to abide by the standard LeBron and others do. It's so ridiculous.

When you think of The Bulls you think of Jordan, when you think of The Patriots you think of Tom Brady, when you think of the Oilers you think of Wayne Gretzky.

Can you really associate LeBron with The Heat or The Cavs?

When I think of the NBA from 2004-2017 I think of LeBron James. Why does that not count? Why does it count against LeBron because he was great with two different teams? Like, seriously, that's a terrible argument..."LeBron James cannot be as good as Jordan because LeBron was great on two different teams and Jordan was only great on one".

The arguments are just absurd.

 

[Slyfox696]

More deflecting and refusing to answer.

I didn't deflect anything and utterly destroyed your lying arguments.

Couldn't come up with any examples of 80s 90s players "flocking" to play with others? How come?

Because free agency didn't exist until the late 80s, like I said? And I've already pointed out several players who played in the 90s who switched teams chasing a ring: Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Shaq, etc. Hell, even Pippen requested he be traded from the Rockets so he could win another title.

Seriously, you may win the award for most dishonest poster on these forums. All you have done is lie in this thread.

Going to the finals is better than winning the title?

I noted NUMEROUS team accomplishments for LeBron. Stop lying.

I made you so mad

Oh, I was never once mad. You're just lying out of your ass. Me calling you a liar doesn't mean I was mad, it just means you were lying.

Just a real hoe ass dude.

What the fuck does that even mean? Seriously, how stupid and dishonest can one person be?

You're too young.

No, I'm just not an idiot and a liar. That's the problem you seem to be having.

Until then.... just shut the fuck up when grown men are talking hoops, hoe.

There's no way you're over the age of 15 if you're saying things like that. No way. That's absolutely hilarious. The best part is that, despite all your lies about me being mad, it is painfully obvious YOU are the one who was being all pissy. You constantly lie and then get pissy when someone calls you out for being a liar. That's absolutely hilarious.

Look, if you can't take getting your ass handed to you about basketball by someone who CLEARLY knows far more about basketball than you ever will, then don't post in this thread. You have done nothing but constantly lie and come up with the stupidest arguments possible (for example, your claim 1000 rebounds is insignificant...stupid). How about you wait until you're old enough to buy alcohol before you come back into this debate with someone who clearly outclasses you.

Have a great day.

 

[LBGetBack]

I didn't deflect anything and utterly destroyed your lying arguments.
Because free agency didn't exist until the late 80s, like I said? And I've already pointed out several players who played in the 90s who switched teams chasing a ring: Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Shaq, etc. Hell, even Pippen requested he be traded from the Rockets so he could win another title.

Seriously, you may win the award for most dishonest poster on these forums. All you have done is lie in this thread.
I noted NUMEROUS team accomplishments for LeBron. Stop lying.
Oh, I was never once mad. You're just lying out of your ass. Me calling you a liar doesn't mean I was mad, it just means you were lying.



What the fuck does that even mean? Seriously, how stupid and dishonest can one person be?



No, I'm just not an idiot and a liar. That's the problem you seem to be having.



There's no way you're over the age of 15 if you're saying things like that. No way. That's absolutely hilarious. The best part is that, despite all your lies about me being mad, it is painfully obvious YOU are the one who was being all pissy. You constantly lie and then get pissy when someone calls you out for being a liar. That's absolutely hilarious.

Look, if you can't take getting your ass handed to you about basketball by someone who CLEARLY knows far more about basketball than you ever will, then don't post in this thread. You have done nothing but constantly lie and come up with the stupidest arguments possible (for example, your claim 1000 rebounds is insignificant...stupid). How about you wait until you're old enough to buy alcohol before you come back into this debate with someone who clearly outclasses you.

Have a great day.

So you're so mad that you came back a MONTH later and responded? You were probably hoping to sneak this one by and hope I didn't notice or respond, huh? Wanted the last word that badly? How hoe-ish.

Your ring chasing thing is the most dishonest thing you've done yet. So hoe-ish.

You: Nobody flocked to play with Jordan!
Me: The rules were different. Name someone in that era that people flocked to play with.
You: The rules were different, like I said. But uh, duh, uh...Scottie Pippen got traded to Portland in 1999!

WTF? YOU claimed nobody flocked to play with Jordan and used that as a negative against him. Then you come back and say that it wasn't possible for people to flock to play with him(after I already told you that).....wow. So dishonest. Pathetic.

 

[Slyfox696]

I hate the quote game, but what the hell.

Sorry for getting back to you so late, but between vacation and various summer projects, I just kind of forgot about this thread.

An argument that I can't believe hasn't been brought up by others. They're 2 different positions.

And they are. It's why comparing Jordan to Chamberlain is silly, as is Jordan and LeBron.

Jordan is seen as the greatest ever for multiple reasons unrelated to basketball. Don't misunderstand, he was a phenomenal player, one of the best ever, but it's the other things (increased television exposure, a booming age of merchandising, lack of 24/7 media, etc.) which contribute to his legacy.

Frankly, I'd argue Jordan averaging only 1 rebound less than someone at a position closer to the basket (and in this era James sometimes plays center) is an argument for Jordan, and not against him.

I don't buy that argument a bit. LeBron has often in his career guarded the other teams best player, so he's chasing guys around the perimeter as much as Jordan would have...and Jordan had Pippen to take the hardest defensive assignments. LeBron averaging more rebounds is a point in his favor and the idea Jordan gets the benefit for putting up inferior numbers doesn't make any sense to me.

Jordan was also a shooting guard, which, by definition, doesn't pass as much. James, as basically a point forward, plays a much (and it's not even close) different style. Besides, it's not like Jordan couldn't pass the ball well. In year 1997 he made a pass that seemed to work out well. I know it's only one example, but James seems to do this way too often.

Again, not buying that argument. If LeBron wanted to shoot 25 times a game, he could. LeBron chooses not to. If Jordan wanted to not take 24 shots in a game, he could. He chose not to.

You don't get credit for what you did AND for what you didn't do. Jordan gets credit for being a better scorer than James. No one would ever dispute that (though it can be argued James is a more efficient scorer). But Jordan doesn't get a pass for the tradeoff of being the better scorer.

And different eras. Screw that argument about Jordan/James. I think it's more interesting about teams. People are comparing the 96 Bulls to this years Warriors. Which rules do they play by? That alone would likely determine the winner.

It wouldn't. The Warriors would beat them. The Bulls did not have any inside game, which is the only place the Warriors might be vulnerable. But with the Warriors ability to spread the floor, the Bulls would have too much trouble handling that and would not have an offensive counter to take advantage. This year's Warriors would beat the '96 Bulls, I have no doubt. Would last year's Warriors have defeated the Bulls? I think they COULD have, but it would be much more of a coin flip.

If you want to refer to all championships as team accomplishments, then any statement regarding James carrying his teams there are null and void.

I disagree. The point of James carrying his teams to championships is to point out what the team did without James. He was constantly taking inferior teams and non-playoff teams to much higher heights than they were before or after James was there.

That wasn't true of the Bulls. When Jordan left the Bulls, they were still a playoff team. When Jordan joined the Wizards, they never cracked .500. The point of James carrying his teams is to show his greatness, not to tout team accomplishment.

And better shot? Barely in terms of FG%. And that's mostly because James's jump shot was so bad early on he drove all the time. He has developed it over time and even has a better 3P%. But considering he takes 4 3's a game compared to Jordan's 1.7, he should be better. Their careers parellel a little in that area because as Jordan aged he developed the turn around fadeaway (which imo is one of the prettiest shots ever).

I think you may have misread my post here. I said Jordan was the better scorer.

Better defender?

Again, I think you misread my post. I never said James was a better defender, I said Jordan wasn't a better defender (leaving open the possibility of rough equality), but I did say LeBron was the more versatile defender, which is absolutely true.

So if they're roughly the same quality of defender, but LeBron is a more versatile defender...

I don't care about any of this in regards to the game of basketball. You can speculate all you like.

It's not speculation and it's entirely important to this conversation. People don't compare LeBron to Jordan, they compare LeBron to the myth of Jordan, a myth which has been cultivated on those things I've mentioned.

When you compare the two men, not their legends, then it's clear Jordan is not what people make him out to be. He was a great player, but he wasn't what people pretend he is.

I'd throw Magic and Bird in there as well. I'd even argue removing Wilt. Though a stat machine, championships do matter to most everyone but you, Sly

I'm not saying they don't matter, I'm saying they're irrelevant when comparing the quality of an individuals.

So what's your excuse for James in these Cleveland years? Or even in his Miami years?

....why do you think I need an excuse? For what does LeBron need an excuse?

He's been to seven straight NBA Finals. He's won 3 championships. In the years his team didn't win the championship, he only played semi-poorly in one of those years (2011). In 2015, James was CLEARLY the best player on the floor and only didn't win the Finals MVP because of some stupid mentality that the MVP can only come from the winning team. In 2017, James became the first player in NBA history to average a triple-double for the Finals. The last time James wasn't in the NBA Finals, his team was eliminated by "The Big Three" of Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, all of whom are now retired, and James was 25 years old...he's currently 32.

What's there to excuse?

 

[Slyfox696]

So you're so mad that you came back a MONTH later and responded?

Not mad at all. I had a vacation in that time and forgot about this thread until another poster commented in it. You'll notice I also replied to Fire Marshall Bill who, unlike you, isn't an idiot and a liar.

It's amusing you're trying so hard to pretend I'm mad about something, just because I'm honestly calling you a liar.

You were probably hoping to sneak this one by and hope I didn't notice or respond, huh? Wanted the last word that badly? How hoe-ish.

No, I just have a life outside of arguing with an idiot and a liar and totally forgot about this thread.

Your ring chasing thing is the most dishonest thing you've done yet. So hoe-ish.

You: Nobody flocked to play with Jordan!
Me: The rules were different. Name someone in that era that people flocked to play with.
You: The rules were different, like I said. But uh, duh, uh...Scottie Pippen got traded to Portland in 1999!

WTF? YOU claimed nobody flocked to play with Jordan and used that as a negative against him. Then you come back and say that it wasn't possible for people to flock to play with him(after I already told you that).....wow. So dishonest. Pathetic.

And again you lie. I said free agency wasn't a thing until the late 80s. People could have flocked to play with Jordan anytime after 1988, but they didn't. You asked for people who went ring chasing and I gave you names.

Your lying has gotten old and it stops now. I have no problem with you arguing with me and I have no problem with your insults which sound like they come from a teenager experiencing acne for the first time. But your lying stops. Consider that an official warning from an Administrator. Argue/debate all you want. Insult if you choose. But stop lying about what I said. I am no longer going to tolerate it.

 

[LBGetBack]

Sorry for getting back to you so late, but between vacation and various summer projects, I just kind of forgot about this thread.

And they are. It's why comparing Jordan to Chamberlain is silly, as is Jordan and LeBron.

Jordan is seen as the greatest ever for multiple reasons unrelated to basketball. Don't misunderstand, he was a phenomenal player, one of the best ever, but it's the other things (increased television exposure, a booming age of merchandising, lack of 24/7 media, etc.) which contribute to his legacy.

I don't buy that argument a bit. LeBron has often in his career guarded the other teams best player, so he's chasing guys around the perimeter as much as Jordan would have...and Jordan had Pippen to take the hardest defensive assignments. LeBron averaging more rebounds is a point in his favor and the idea Jordan gets the benefit for putting up inferior numbers doesn't make any sense to me.

Again, not buying that argument. If LeBron wanted to shoot 25 times a game, he could. LeBron chooses not to. If Jordan wanted to not take 24 shots in a game, he could. He chose not to.

You don't get credit for what you did AND for what you didn't do. Jordan gets credit for being a better scorer than James. No one would ever dispute that (though it can be argued James is a more efficient scorer). But Jordan doesn't get a pass for the tradeoff of being the better scorer.

It wouldn't. The Warriors would beat them. The Bulls did not have any inside game, which is the only place the Warriors might be vulnerable. But with the Warriors ability to spread the floor, the Bulls would have too much trouble handling that and would not have an offensive counter to take advantage. This year's Warriors would beat the '96 Bulls, I have no doubt. Would last year's Warriors have defeated the Bulls? I think they COULD have, but it would be much more of a coin flip.

I disagree. The point of James carrying his teams to championships is to point out what the team did without James. He was constantly taking inferior teams and non-playoff teams to much higher heights than they were before or after James was there.

That wasn't true of the Bulls. When Jordan left the Bulls, they were still a playoff team. When Jordan joined the Wizards, they never cracked .500. The point of James carrying his teams is to show his greatness, not to tout team accomplishment.

I think you may have misread my post here. I said Jordan was the better scorer.

Again, I think you misread my post. I never said James was a better defender, I said Jordan wasn't a better defender (leaving open the possibility of rough equality), but I did say LeBron was the more versatile defender, which is absolutely true.

So if they're roughly the same quality of defender, but LeBron is a more versatile defender...

It's not speculation and it's entirely important to this conversation. People don't compare LeBron to Jordan, they compare LeBron to the myth of Jordan, a myth which has been cultivated on those things I've mentioned.

When you compare the two men, not their legends, then it's clear Jordan is not what people make him out to be. He was a great player, but he wasn't what people pretend he is.

I'm not saying they don't matter, I'm saying they're irrelevant when comparing the quality of an individuals.

....why do you think I need an excuse? For what does LeBron need an excuse?

He's been to seven straight NBA Finals. He's won 3 championships. In the years his team didn't win the championship, he only played semi-poorly in one of those years (2011). In 2015, James was CLEARLY the best player on the floor and only didn't win the Finals MVP because of some stupid mentality that the MVP can only come from the winning team. In 2017, James became the first player in NBA history to average a triple-double for the Finals. The last time James wasn't in the NBA Finals, his team was eliminated by "The Big Three" of Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, all of whom are now retired, and James was 25 years old...he's currently 32.

What's there to excuse?

First, we all know you didn't watch the 96 Bulls live, and if you did you were like 8 years old and didn't know what you were seeing.

Funny how you only apply that "Warriors are vulnerable inside but Bulls had no inside game" one way. It applies the other way too. Those Bulls basically only had trouble against elite centers, like Hakeem and the Rockets. The Warriors don't have that.

The Bulls had 3 elite perimeter defenders in Jordan, Pippen, and Harper....plus Rodman. If there's any team equipped to defend these Warriors, it was the '96 Bulls.

I think the Warriors tendency to get loose and careless with the ball would hurt them against a disciplined and veteran team like those Bulls too.

 

[LBGetBack]

Not mad at all. I had a vacation in that time and forgot about this thread until another poster commented in it. You'll notice I also replied to Fire Marshall Bill who, unlike you, isn't an idiot and a liar.

It's amusing you're trying so hard to pretend I'm mad about something, just because I'm honestly calling you a liar.

No, I just have a life outside of arguing with an idiot and a liar and totally forgot about this thread.

And again you lie. I said free agency wasn't a thing until the late 80s. People could have flocked to play with Jordan anytime after 1988, but they didn't. You asked for people who went ring chasing and I gave you names.

Your lying has gotten old and it stops now. I have no problem with you arguing with me and I have no problem with your insults which sound like they come from a teenager experiencing acne for the first time. But your lying stops. Consider that an official warning from an Administrator. Argue/debate all you want. Insult if you choose. But stop lying about what I said. I am no longer going to tolerate it.

AGAIN you are subtly lying by changing it to ring chasing. Still ain't named ANY PLAYER that people flocked to play with. Who was Pippen flocking to play with? Rasheed? Who was Shaq flocking to play with....Nick Van Exel?

You're subtly trying to change the conversation. Veterans jumping on good teams and "ring chasing" and stars "flocking" to play with other stars are not the same thing. You tried to apply something from one era to another, and it failed because you're going up against someone who actually watched basketball back then. You can't google your way through this one. Take your L, and stop flopping around like a fish.

LMAO at you being so shook that you want to use your "administrator powers" to stop the onslaught. That's the saddest thing I've ever heard. FOH.

 

[Slyfox696]

First, we all know you didn't watch the 96 Bulls live, and if you did you were like 8 years old and didn't know what you were seeing.

What we DO know is that you clearly cannot do math. Try again.

Funny how you only apply that "Warriors are vulnerable inside but Bulls had no inside game" one way. It applies the other way too. Those Bulls basically only had trouble against elite centers, like Hakeem and the Rockets. The Warriors don't have that.

The Bulls never played a team which spreads the floor like the Warriors do. When the Cavaliers cannot even play Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson at the same time because of the Warriors' perimeter threat, then what can the Bulls do? Dennis Rodman, as good of a post defender as he was, is much less effective on the perimeter and his effectiveness as a rebounder would be minimized. Luc Longley wouldn't be able to play at all and Toni Kukoc couldn't guard me. Ron Harper wasn't capable of spreading the floor and there's no way Steve Kerr could begin comprehending trying to guard Steph Curry, nor could Kerr or Harper break Curry down off the dribble like Irving.

At the end of the day, the only place the Bulls would have had the advantage would be MJ. Klay Thompson is recognized as a very good defender and while no one would stop Jordan from scoring, Thompson et all would be good enough to keep Jordan from single-handedly beating them.

The Warriors wouldn't need an inside game to beat the Bulls, they are a far better perimeter and motion team. The Bulls would need a strong inside game to defeat the Warriors, but they didn't have it.

The Bulls had 3 elite perimeter defenders in Jordan, Pippen, and Harper....plus Rodman. If there's any team equipped to defend these Warriors, it was the '96 Bulls.

Nah. First of all, the Bulls didn't have anyone who could defend Durant. And I can say that unequivocally, because there's never been a basketball player who can shut down Durant. As I said above, Harper would be a huge liability on offense and he would not be quick enough to stay in front of Curry, which means Jordan would have to guard Curry. And Rodman couldn't guard Durant or Green, so he'd be stuck on Pachulia or West or McGee, depending on who was in the game, assuming one of those three were in the game.

I think the Warriors tendency to get loose and careless with the ball would hurt them against a disciplined and veteran team like those Bulls too.

When compared against number of possessions per game, the Warriors number of turnovers is no where near troubling.

The Warriors would beat the Bulls. The Bulls just simply don't match up well at all with the 2017 Warriors.

 

[LBGetBack]

What we DO know is that you clearly cannot do math. Try again.

The Bulls never played a team which spreads the floor like the Warriors do. When the Cavaliers cannot even play Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson at the same time because of the Warriors' perimeter threat, then what can the Bulls do? Dennis Rodman, as good of a post defender as he was, is much less effective on the perimeter and his effectiveness as a rebounder would be minimized. Luc Longley wouldn't be able to play at all and Toni Kukoc couldn't guard me. Ron Harper wasn't capable of spreading the floor and there's no way Steve Kerr could begin comprehending trying to guard Steph Curry, nor could Kerr or Harper break Curry down off the dribble like Irving.

At the end of the day, the only place the Bulls would have had the advantage would be MJ. Klay Thompson is recognized as a very good defender and while no one would stop Jordan from scoring, Thompson et all would be good enough to keep Jordan from single-handedly beating them.

The Warriors wouldn't need an inside game to beat the Bulls, they are a far better perimeter team. The Bulls would need a strong inside game to defeat the Warriors, but they didn't have it.

Nah. First of all, the Bulls didn't have anyone who could defend Durant. And I can say that unequivocally, because there's never been a basketball player who can shut down Durant. As I said above, Harper would be a huge liability on offense and he would not be quick enough to stay in front of Curry, which means Jordan would have to guard Curry. And Rodman couldn't guard Durant or Green, so he'd be stuck on Pachulia or West or McGee, depending on who was in the game, assuming one of those three were in the game.

When compared against number of possessions per game, the Warriors number of turnovers is no where near troubling.

The Warriors would beat the Bulls. The Bulls just simply don't match up well at all with the 2017 Warriors.

Rodman couldn't guard on the perimeter? LOL! While he wasn't the perimeter defender in '96 that he was in Detroit, he most certainly could guard someone like Draymond. That might've been the least informed thing you've said yet, which is really saying something.

Yes, Durant is going to get buckets....see how he lit Lebron up like a Christmas tree in this year's finals. That said, Pippen is an all time elite defender. Would've been interesting.

Harper could guard Klay and take turns on Curry. You seem to greatly underestimate his defensive ability too. If the Dubs have a center on the floor, then you most certainly could play Longley or hide Kukoc.

 

[Slyfox696]

AGAIN you are subtly lying by changing it to ring chasing.

That's what this whole thing was about. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "lie".

Still ain't named ANY PLAYER that people flocked to play with.

Umm, people flock to play with LeBron.

Who was Pippen flocking to play with? Rasheed? Who was Shaq flocking to play with....Nick Van Exel?

You seem to be confused. Go back to what you said:

Couldn't come up with any examples of 80s 90s players "flocking" to play with others?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and presume you simply forgot what you said. You didn't ask who people flocked to play with, you asked which players flocked to play with others to win. And I gave you plenty of names.

You're subtly trying to change the conversation. Veterans jumping on good teams and "ring chasing" and stars "flocking" to play with other stars are not the same thing.

They are in the context in which I've always discussed.

If you didn't understand that, then that's your problem. My point was always that, despite Jordan's greatness, nobody wanted to come play with him to win. Numerous players want to come play with LeBron and win.

You tried to apply something from one era to another, and it failed because you're going up against someone who actually watched basketball back then. You can't google your way through this one. Take your L, and stop flopping around like a fish.

This doesn't even make sense. If you don't understand what you're talking about, then don't reply.

LMAO at you being so shook that you want to use your "administrator powers" to stop the onslaught. That's the saddest thing I've ever heard. FOH.

No, that's not what I said. In fact, that's the opposite of what I said. Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply misunderstood because you're stupid.

I'm not saying you cannot argue with me. I'm not saying you cannot insult me. I'm saying you cannot lie. If you continue to lie, then there will be official repercussions. I'm not using my "administrator powers" (by the way, you don't use quotes when you paraphrase someone, without acknowledging you're paraphrasing) to keep you from debating, I'm using them to tell you to stop lying, like I would say to any child.

I'll make this really simple for you.

Argue if you want. Insult if you wish. But don't lie.

 

[Slyfox696]

Rodman couldn't guard on the perimeter? LOL! While he wasn't the perimeter defender in '96 that he was in Detroit, he most certainly could guard someone like Draymond.

Well, that's just pure nonsense and only further proves you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, Durant is going to get buckets....see how he lit Lebron up like a Christmas tree in this year's finals. That said, Pippen is an all time elite defender. Would've been interesting.

No it wouldn't, Durant would kill Pippen. LeBron is a better defender on a player like Durant, and like you said, Durant still killed in this year's finals. Durant would kill Pippen too.

Harper could guard Klay and take turns on Curry.

Harper could match up with Klay, but he wouldn't do any better of a job than anyone else does on Thompson. But because you have Harper on Thompson, that means you have to put your only shot at winning, Jordan, on Steph Curry, who is constantly in motion on offense and coming off screen after screen after screen. Having to have Jordan chase Curry around the floor all night would wear him down. Additionally, as I said, having Harper in the game would clog the floor because Harper doesn't have an outside shot.

You seem to greatly underestimate his defensive ability too.

I'm not underestimating Harper's defensive ability, I'm accurately assessing who he could guard. Harper couldn't guard Steph Curry 30 feet from the basket and all around the floor, he simply wasn't quick enough. He would have had to guard Thompson, as you agree. Which means Jordan spends the entire series chasing Curry.

If the Dubs have a center on the floor, then you most certainly could play Longley or hide Kukoc.

Kukoc couldn't guard West, Pachulia or McGee, he'd get killed on the boards. And, again, Rodman wouldn't be able to defend Green around the perimeter, not in the late 90s. Rodman would have to guard the center position, Pippen on Durant, Jordan on Curry, Harper on Thompson and figure out the last matchups depending on whose in the game.

That's not at all optimal for the Bulls. You have your best scorer chasing Curry around the floor nonstop through multiple screens, you have Pippen trying to guard an unstoppable Durant who has a several inch height advantage, you have Harper who would be a liability on offense against the Warriors and you have no answer for Green.

The Warriors would be a terrible matchup for the Bulls. The Bulls couldn't punish the Warriors inside and we all know a 3 pointer is worth more than a 2 pointer.

 

[LBGetBack]

That's what this whole thing was about. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "lie".

Umm, people flock to play with LeBron.

You seem to be confused. Go back to what you said:


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and presume you simply forgot what you said. You didn't ask who people flocked to play with, you asked which players flocked to play with others to win. And I gave you plenty of names.

They are in the context in which I've always discussed.

If you didn't understand that, then that's your problem. My point was always that, despite Jordan's greatness, nobody wanted to come play with him to win. Numerous players want to come play with LeBron and win.

This doesn't even make sense. If you don't understand what you're talking about, then don't reply.



No, that's not what I said. In fact, that's the opposite of what I said. Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply misunderstood because you're stupid.

I'm not saying you cannot argue with me. I'm not saying you cannot insult me. I'm saying you cannot lie. If you continue to lie, then there will be official repercussions. I'm not using my "administrator powers" (by the way, you don't use quotes when you paraphrase someone, without acknowledging you're paraphrasing) to keep you from debating, I'm using them to tell you to stop lying, like I would say to any child.

I'll make this really simple for you.

Argue if you want. Insult if you wish. But don't lie.

All that to continue dicking around and dodging the question. Name an 80's or 90's superstar that people "flocked" to play with. You still haven't done it. Just keep dancing around.

"Repurcussions"....LOL! Meanwhile you're the one ducking and dodging and being dishonest. Pathetic.