Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (6) Harley Race

[George Steele's Barber]

You really know how to twist words into your own warped mind. I never said Race was obscure. I said he's a great wrestler, just not on the level of Cena. And the HHH comment was such that yeah, if you knew your wrestling history, of course you'd know Harley Race. Similarly, you'd know Ric Flair, but the WWE's love affair with both certainly has given modern fans reason to overvalue both men,

Are you seriously arguing for John Cena by being critical of WWE's love for certain men?

I guess we should throw out all of Cena's accomplishments since it they were just out of WWE's love affair with him.

I'm not saying Cena should lose here but your arguments are I Am Phenom level of terrible.

to the point where we have both in the final 8 while people like Bruno Sammartino are on the outside looking in.

Because WWE has buried Bruno.

But see, I respect all generations of wrestlers. I just understand how to compare the wrestler's value in regards to their generation. Race was solid all around and did his job for a while, but he was not a John Cena. Very few are on that level.

....because WWE loves him.

Terrible argument, stop insulting John Cena, he deserves better.

 

[JJYanks121]

Are you seriously arguing for John Cena by being critical of WWE's love for certain men?

I guess we should throw out all of Cena's accomplishments since it they were just out of WWE's love affair with him.

I'm not saying Cena should lose here but your arguments are I Am Phenom level of terrible.



Because WWE has buried Bruno.



....because WWE loves him.

Terrible argument, stop insulting John Cena, he deserves better.

Uh, what?

Seriously, what? Not sure what the purpose of your post was, at all. My couple of posts in this thread have served to push Cena as the victor over Harley Race and I'm insulting him? I might need some elaboration.

My main point is that there are a select few men that achieve that status as a draw beyond wrestling. Hogan, Andre, Rock, maybe Austin, and Cena have that distinction. Harley Race doesn't. He was great within the realm which he performed, as a professional wrestler in the age of regional territories. He won the title and defended it for years, losing it and winning it back on occasion, and he left a legacy strong enough to have influenced one of today's best in HHH. All that said, he did not transcend the industry like the others. Given that I treat every matchup as a kayfabe tournament matchup, I don't see a scenario where the far bigger deal in wrestling and far bigger deal as a draw doesn't go over. If I'm not making myself clear and my arguments are still "shit", please let me know how. I'd be happy to elaborate farther if you are willing to do the same.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Uh, what?

Seriously, what? Not sure what the purpose of your post was, at all. My couple of posts in this thread have served to push Cena as the victor over Harley Race and I'm insulting him? I might need some elaboration.

My main point is that there are a select few men that achieve that status as a draw beyond wrestling. Hogan, Andre, Rock, maybe Austin, and Cena have that distinction. Harley Race doesn't. He was great within the realm which he performed, as a professional wrestler in the age of regional territories. He won the title and defended it for years, losing it and winning it back on occasion, and he left a legacy strong enough to have influenced one of today's best in HHH. All that said, he did not transcend the industry like the others. Given that I treat every matchup as a kayfabe tournament matchup, I don't see a scenario where the far bigger deal in wrestling and far bigger deal as a draw doesn't go over. If I'm not making myself clear and my arguments are still "shit", please let me know how. I'd be happy to elaborate farther if you are willing to do the same.

Nah, I see exactly what he's saying.

You do acknowledge that Race was a great wrestler in his time, but you also say that he's probably remembered better than he should be thanks to the WWE memory machine, which tells so many who they should revere from the past, and who they shouldn't. Which actually is insulting to Race because he wasn't a guy that only deserved to be revered because the WWE says he should... and I don't really see it anyways. I've never personally really noticed them do more than treat the guy with the respect he earned and deserves the odd time his name comes up anymore. I've never really noticed them go out of their way to point out how great he was.

However, using that argument against Race is ironic considering that Cena's stature comes in large part from the fact that the WWE wants him to be a part of that Mt. Rushmore of wrestling that others have mentioned. It's not like Cena's a guy who went from company to company... country to country... getting himself over everywhere he went and pushing his way to the top. He was put there and kept there no matter what by the WWE from the start. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, because he's really grown into the role, but let's be honest. Cena isn't an Austin, HHH, Michaels, Hart, Foley, Savage, ect who forced their hand, got himself over, and made himself a part of the main event. He's more of an Ultimate Warrior who was always going to be there from Day 1, only unlike the Warrior, they actually got it right with him.

If on Day 1, Vince McMahon didn't decide that Cena was his 'next one', how far would he have gone? Would he have forced his way to the top anyways like Austin did? Like tag wrestlers and occasional jobbers like Hart and Michaels did? Or would he have simply just had a nice, solid, but undistinguished career like 95% of pro wrestlers who make it as far as the WWE do? No one knows.

FYI - Race was a guy that got himself over everywhere he went, and forced hands. His first NWA title win was simply because Dory Sr didn't want his kid losing to rival and face Jack Brisco. By the time he lost his last NWA title, no one had been champion more times, and few in history were ever as respected by peers and fans alike.

 

[tdmoon]

I've been wanting to chime into this discussion but I can't really say anything better than Nightmare and Mr.Mojo have above. Terrific posts, btw.

I voted Race. I'm willing to concede my vote is biased; I see Race as one of the premier wrestlers of all-time. I'm not taking anything away from Cena, either. Though I am not a big fan of his matches, I have a lot of respect for everything he has done and he has done a fine job of carrying the mantle for the WWF this past decade. He seems an excellent choice to put in this role, takes it seriously and is extremely professional in going about his business.

That said, Race does have a lot of advantages over Cena. Harley Race was a better technician, he was tougher, smarter and I feel he faced better wrestlers over the course of his career. Cena has done an excellent job with the US title, but Race did it first and did it better. Cena has a lot of world title wins but I feel Race's had more impact and were superior. He defended the title against top stars in different promotions and was even the better tag wrestler. Some may not remember, but it was a big deal when Flair topped Race's number of NWA titles. This probably isn't fair to Cena; it isn't his fault championship reigns have been devalued in his time at the top, but it is what it is. During Race's time at the top, there was no question he was the guy while Cena has had more company at the top.

Cena is incredibly impressive physically, moreso than Race who was no slouch himself. He was handed the ball and has done an excellent job of running with it. I certainly won't begrudge anybody voting for him here, there are a lot of fine arguments for it. The voting so far has been way too one-sided, though. Even if Cena did win this match, Race would definitely test him and put him through a whole helluva lot of physical punishment. Cena would certainly be hurting. No way this match is as one-sided as the polls are showing right now; place your vote for Race so this match is the war it should be rather than a squash over one of the toughest, most respected, and most decorated champions wrestling has seen.

 

[wrestlingfan]

Nah, I see exactly what he's saying.

You do acknowledge that Race was a great wrestler in his time, but you also say that he's probably remembered better than he should be thanks to the WWE memory machine, which tells so many who they should revere from the past, and who they shouldn't. Which actually is insulting to Race because he wasn't a guy that only deserved to be revered because the WWE says he should... and I don't really see it anyways. I've never personally really noticed them do more than treat the guy with the respect he earned and deserves the odd time his name comes up anymore. I've never really noticed them go out of their way to point out how great he was.

However, using that argument against Race is ironic considering that Cena's stature comes in large part from the fact that the WWE wants him to be a part of that Mt. Rushmore of wrestling that others have mentioned. It's not like Cena's a guy who went from company to company... country to country... getting himself over everywhere he went and pushing his way to the top. He was put there and kept there no matter what by the WWE from the start. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, because he's really grown into the role, but let's be honest. Cena isn't an Austin, HHH, Michaels, Hart, Foley, Savage, ect who forced their hand, got himself over, and made himself a part of the main event. He's more of an Ultimate Warrior who was always going to be there from Day 1, only unlike the Warrior, they actually got it right with him.

If on Day 1, Vince McMahon didn't decide that Cena was his 'next one', how far would he have gone? Would he have forced his way to the top anyways like Austin did? Like tag wrestlers and occasional jobbers like Hart and Michaels did? Or would he have simply just had a nice, solid, but undistinguished career like 95% of pro wrestlers who make it as far as the WWE do? No one knows.

FYI - Race was a guy that got himself over everywhere he went, and forced hands. His first NWA title win was simply because Dory Sr didn't want his kid losing to rival and face Jack Brisco. By the time he lost his last NWA title, no one had been champion more times, and few in history were ever as respected by peers and fans alike.

John Cena was almost fired in the beginning of his WWE career.

"Back in 2003, 2002, when I was just wearing boots and tights and I was supposed to be the ruthless aggression young good guy, nobody in the company liked me. I know Vince McMahon won't admit this, but he wanted me fired, Triple H wanted me fired, everybody hated me. They just wouldn't give me a forum to showcase my talents. I've always been able to connect with the audience if given the ability to speak."

If it wasn't for that Halloween episode of Smackdown that led to him getting over as the Doctor of Thuganomics he wouldn't be in the position he was. It doesn't matter if Vince said he was the one because if Cena never developed the character he had, he would've never rose to the top.

 

[Bernkastel]

I voted for Harley simply because I felt the poll should be a bit closer than what it is. Had these two only a few places on the list that I made. Difficult decision. Having read through some of the arguments, Cena does have the marketability advantage. He benefits from marketing strategies that did not exist in the 70's or 80's when Race was prominent. Race on the other hand was a more solid drawing card. Cena works in an era of pro wrestling where he can just be considered a cog in the WWE machine. An important cog, but not an irreplaceable cog. Harley was NWA champion more often than anyone else in his era, which says quite a bit about how much promoters valued him. Race was the face of the NWA for 4 years. Trading the title and then getting it back. Champions like Baba, Tommy Rich, and Dusty Rhodes only held the belt through political favors and for very short times; Race was the mainstay. Even though John has been the biggest star in WWE off and on for the past decade, I cannot recall him carrying the WWE for any longer than a year or two as the absolute top guy. If Cena wasn't on top WWE had Punk, they had Batista, and Orton. Race? Not the case.

Charisma? Both had this in spades. The only real way to say who was better is to ask which guy worked their respective audiences better. Is Cena better suited for squeezing money out of wrestling audiences now than Race was in the 70's? Even though the current era has been profitable, has Cena brought in more money as an individual than the WWE is capable of producing, say through corporate sponsors? Not at all. To me this shows that, while Cena is a cash cow, he's not the type of cash cow that the WWE absolutely needs to rely on. That wasn't the case with Race and the NWA in the late 70's. Until Flair came along several years later, there was no better option for carrying the wrestling world better than Harley. That leaves me to ask, has Cena been more important to the vitality and future of the WWE as an organization than Harley was to the NWA. The way I see it Cena would have been easier for WWE to replace than Harley would have been for the NWA. Sure, both companies would have taken financial hits, but the WWE has shown that they do not rely on Cena's marketability when they bring in so much money from other sources, while the NWA relied heavily on Race's ability to draw everywhere, and I think that gives Harley a real advantage here.

Consistency? I think Cena has the edge, but he's never worked outside the WWE. Race's WWE career was largely forgettable.

Accolades? Cena might have the edge, Harley did spend more time as the NWA champion than John has as the WWE champion, but Cena has had to face some real overexposure challenges that Harley did not have to. Cena arguably had fiercer competition. Harely may have been harder for the WWE to replace as top dog than Cena, but Cena still held the WWE champion for twice as long or longer than his nearest top rival. I think the total amount of days that Cena has held the WWE title speaks for more than the number of times he's held it.

Impact on the industry? Modern fans remember Race, because WWE makes it their duty to make sure he's remembered. Triple H imitated him for years. To my knowledge no star as big as HHH as tried to imitate John Cena to that level. and I've covered why Harley was more essential to keep the NWA profitable during a down period for the industry as a whole than Cena is to the overall growth of the WWE in the past few years.

I can see the justification to vote for Cena, but there's also plenty of justification to vote for Harley as well.