Championship Match: (1) John Cena vs. (3) Andre the Giant

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, May 10, 2016.

?

Who Wins The Tournament?

  1. John Cena

  2. Andre the Giant

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    Since you like flipping the script, let's look at how John Cena would get along in Andre's world. If John Cena had popped up as a brash 25 year old body builder in 1977, he wouldn't have been permitted to get by dressing like a Grandmaster Flash wannabe who releases a new shirt every month. John would have made some headlines by putting women and kids in seats, but the old guard would have never allowed him to achieve the kind of success he's earned these days.

    Beating The Big Show doesn't prove very much these days, I really don't think it's fair to use The Big Show as a surrogate for Andre. Big Show is at a state of jobber status that Andre never had to deal with, and Andre would have never competed for a company that wanted to book him solely as a low hurdle for someone like John Cena. I think that Andre would be more like Brock Lesnar, in that instead of putting over potential top guys left and right he would be the top guy that very few manage to get past.

    I voted for Andre the Giant because he has more wins against better opponents than John Cena has ever beaten.

    A few quick examples:

    Andre the Giant vs Tatsumi Fujinami
    [YOUTUBE]J0QZqRqJYUY[/YOUTUBE]

    Andre the Giant vs Killer Kowalski
    [YOUTUBE]OOkfxbZJo-4[/YOUTUBE]

    Andre the Giant vs The Ultimate Warrior
    [YOUTUBE]AJYb2Jfli2I[/YOUTUBE]

    Of note is that the last video is the only occurrence in pro-wrestling history when The Ultimate Warrior was pinned clean.

    If Andre of 1977 were wrestling today, he would go to TNA and defeat Jeff Hardy, he would go to ROH and defeat Jay Briscoe, he would go to NJPW and defeat Kazuchika Okada and then he would round out his world tour by coming to the WWE to defeat John Cena.
     
    #51
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  2. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I happily voted for Andre the Giant, the 2nd best Superheavyweight in Professional Wrestling History.

    I've always been one who has examined these matches with the idea in mind that if both guys were in their primes, who would win? VERY few men would have truly, consistently defeated Andre in his prime. He was a larger than life legend for the simple reason that he was like nothing anybody had ever seen before. Sure, there were large men in the game prior to Andre, but nobody had his combined size, speed, and charisma.

    If Wrestlemanias 3-6 are your frame or reference for Andre, you're approaching it wrong. Sure, he was menacing in those times, but in the 1970's and even the very early 1980's, before his gigantism overtook him, Andre was a terrific mix of size and agility - he routinely performed drop kicks and other moves that were not part of an SHW's repertoire.

    I like Cena and I appreciate his skill and athleticism, but while I do think prime Cena could have defeated the post-prime Andre (the one Hogan beat,) I think he'd have been outmatched by a prime-era Andre.
     
    #52
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  3. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Last night Jericho as a heel was trying to make his jacket sound as the most iconic image in professional wrestling. He compared it to Andre. He was basically saying that Andre was the most iconic image in wresting next to his jacket. I would vote for his jacket in a match with Andre after last night but that jacket isn't coming through the curtain.

    Oh, and for all those Cena voters who are grasping at the booking perspective of things, you don't book a guy to lose while Hollywood is making a biopic about him.

    But Cena was very funny in Trainwreck.
     
    #53
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  4. Skillz

    Skillz Getting Noticed By Management

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    This is a great final with two of wrestling's greatest ever icons, but I don't see how this is anything other than a Cena victory. The story of Cena overcoming the unstoppable Giant really does write itself, and I can't imagine how any smart person booking this match would not go in this direction to end the tournament.

    Let's not forget that by the time this match comes to an end, both wrestlers would have gone at least 45 minutes on the night at that point, which must surely give Cena a huge advantage.
     
    #54
  5. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    That story would write itself, if this was 2007 and Andre went completely against his better judgment and let himself be typecast as just another notch in Cena's spinner belt. So far arguments on behalf of John Cena have relied on that one touchstone, that John Cena would win because he just does and therefore no other variable would matter.

    We're taking both men from eras when they were at their greatest, and we're sending them through the New Daylorean to have them compete in this era. Imagine main eventing next year's WrestleMania with prime Andre vs prime Cena. While the crowds have (thankfully) gone easier on Cena lately, crowds were white hot for Andre through his entire career.

    The story that I see writing itself is that Andre the Giant was a conqueror, and he's already conquered two regions of this tournament. Andre would travel the world, not as a "sideshow" as some have taken to calling him but as the show. This story is being written to show that Andre isn't finished with proving that he's better than everyone who fell into the Rock and Flair regions, he's ready to be the only giant that John Cena couldn't get the best of.

    Let's not forget that in Andre's heyday he would last well beyond the 45 minute mark in matches where his opponents were even capable of lasting that long against him. Andre competed in matches that resulted in sixty minute time limit draws against Nick Bockwinkel, Harley Race and Hulk Hogan. You could easily put John Cena's name among any of those opponents in terms of ability, but you can't use anyone to replace Andre the Giant in his prime.

    The huge advantage goes to the huge man who would not be intimidated, dominated or made to look like a fool. Sending the crowd home happy would mean sending the crowd home knowing that Andre finally got his due with a win in this tournament.

    Andre isn't just unstoppable, he's inevitable.
     
    #55
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  6. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    All humor aside, Andre is the one performer who could be taken seriously with a moniker of "The Eighth Wonder of the World".

    Think about that for a moment. You have countless performers who would claim that they were the best in the world. While few would directly challenge them, that's a pretty lofty claim for someone who hasn't competed against the best the world has to offer. We validate the claims with cheers, but we take them with a grain of salt, plus there's always haters who laugh off the very notion.

    Andre declared that he was the Eighth Wonder of the World, and nobody denied him that claim. I don't need to post sources, just do a little Googling and try to find a website that mocks the idea of Andre the Giant being considered to be the Eighth Wonder of the World.

    In every listing I've found, you have Andre being recognized as the human equivalent to the Grand Canyon or the Taj Mahal or the Terra Cotta Army.

    Pro-wrestling is often a running gag among the holier than thou intellectual community, and John Cena would be easily laughed about in recognition of how ridiculous the art form appears to be. You bring up Andre the Giant, and they stop the bullshit and get serious.
     
    #56
  7. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    While this entire argument is ridiculous on it's face ("try to find an article on the internet that tries to mock a nickname of a wrestler who died years before the Internet became any kind of popular"), it can also be discredited by Ye Olde Chyna being referred to as the NINTH Wonder of the World, and nobody saying boo about it.

    If this tournament was being booked in real life, Cena is going over 100 times out of 100. I love Andre. He's in my favorite movie of all time. But he simply loses to Cena in this situation. He also loses to Austin, Rocky, Hogan, etc. He wasn't brought in to be THE guy, at least in America. He was never WWWE Champ, won his one single WWF title by a freaking twin referee conspiracy and immediately sold it. His individual titles are minimal, at least here in the United States, where THIS MATCH IS TAKING PLACE, because he was never THAT kind of guy. He could definitely make the Finals of a tournament, but he would never be booked to win THIS level of tournament. Cena could and he should.
     
    #57
  8. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    He has a Hollywood movie being made about his life. Do you really think any booker is stupid enough to screw with Hollywood? It would be entertainment suicide. After the movie comes out and Cena has had time for reflection he will get his retribution (see Cena/Rock history) but right now it is in a booker's best interest to invest in the man with the biggest ceiling.
     
    #58
  9. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    That movie hasn't even started production. Nobody is booking a tournament this year based on a biopic that MAY come out in two-three years. This logic is inherently flawed. Cena goes over the man who's career was DESIGNED to give shine to others, at least here in the U.S. of A.
     
    #59
  10. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    #1. I wasn't making an argument, I was backing up a point that GSB had made.

    #2. Many articles on the internet recognize that Andre the Giant is a legit contender for eighth wonder of the world, it is indeed possible for an article on the internet to reflect an idea that originated before the invention of the internet. Here are a few sources:

    11-things-billed-8th-wonder-world

    Eighth Wonder of the World

    8th Wonder of the World

    #3. Nobody boos about Chyna's nickname because barely anybody repeated it. My point was that Andre the Giant was able to transcend pro-wrestling with his nickname intact.

    Andre defeated Rocky in this tournament already, and he has a real life track record that shows that he could beat anyone you could possibly name. In any country, in any arena, for any organization.

    This isn't a title defense, this is a match for something called prestige. Andre the Giant is the spiritual embodiment of pro-wrestling. He arrived, he conquered and he only stopped when he literally could no longer hold himself up. He was a class act when he arrived, and he was a class act up until his passing.

    When it comes to winning this tournament; Andre can, and will.
     
    #60
  11. Bdubbs

    Bdubbs All Hail Crossfit Jesus

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    This championship match vote is extremely close, as I figured it would be. Being an old school fan, I was in awe of Andre's size and ability as a kid. Looking at things now, he's still arguably the best super heavyweight of all time. In his prime, Andre was rarely beaten, and his match with Hogan at WM3 set records. People were emotionally invested in the WM3 build. Although Andre lost the match, everyone wanted to see Hogan slam the big guy. There's no doubt that Andre's mobility was limited by the time WM3 happened, as I consider Andre's prime to be in the 70's.

    I'm not taking anything away from big match John, and if he doesn't win the tournament, I'm confident he will within the next couple years. There's been many good arguments for both sides, but it's often hard to compare wrestlers that come from different eras.

    In the end, my vote tipped to Andre mainly due to personal preference, and the impact he made on me when I was young. However, I certainly wouldn't be upset if Cena prevails in the final match.

    There's not much time left - vote Andre as the next WZ tournament winner!
     
    #61
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  12. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Of course you were making an argument. Just because it was supplemental to something someone else said doesn't make it less of an argument.

    Your first article is literally just a list of things that have been billed as the 8th Wonder of the World, not a commentary on things that DESERVE to be called the 8th Wonder of the World.

    You second "article" is Wikipedia. End of discussion.

    Your final article from a source I've never heard of runs completely counter to your point as it even acknowledges that he wasn't the 8th Wonder of the World.

    Yup. That's why he was billed as the "8th Wonder of the World" in the Princess Bride credits....

    He beat him here before the Finals. That's a different story. He's not designed to WIN tournaments, not in the United States. His whole job was giving shine to people. Here the obvious build is that he's run roughshod through the tournament only to lose to the overmatched but game underdog, John Cena.

    We're literally in the Championship Region. It's for a championship. Andre just didn't really win those.


    Can you give me an example of when he did win a tournament in the U.S.A.? If this were a Battle Royale, maybe.
     
    #62
  13. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Are you serious? You do realize that very few people beat Andre, and even fewer have a winning record against him, right? If you are using the word "shine" as a synonym for "rub" & implying Andre existed just to make others look good.... you are seriously wrong. Andre dominated his opponents & only on rare occasion would he lose. During his prime, he was a monster of a force that went everywhere and beat that regions best.

    Cena is just the type of guy Andre would walk in & beat in a one off first match. Again, the closest man to Andre that Cena beat was Lesnar & it took him a few tries to get it done. Hogan could not even beat Andre in their first meeting & it certainly should go the same way for Cena here. Andre has the more dominant career & bigger reach in terms of star power or mass appeal. In a war, Cena would eventually have his moment to shine and pick up that big win, but only after Andre took him to the woodshed a few times. This is a one off match & a perfect fit for the design laid out by Andre's career. Walk in, hold the crowd in awe & dominate the best before moving on to another challenge.
     
    #63
  14. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer Boy Better Know

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    I decided to vote Cena for a few reasons. Firstly, he is the bigger draw. Cena is more known internationally than Andrè ever was. I don't care about the "if Andrè had been around in modern times, he'd have been much more known" argument. Shoulda woulda coulda. Let's look at what's actually happened and how far their names have reached. Yes Andre was been seen as an international icon but he's no John Cena.

    Secondly, Cena would be able to AA André and put him in STF. He's lifted Edge AND The Big Show on his shoulders and WrestleMania 25. He's also put Show and Khali in the STF so he can do it to André also.

    John Cena has always been the front man of modern day professional wrestling in the 21st century. His accomplishments exceed that of Andre's and, well, simply put, he's put on some fantastic matches and beat a lot of top stars, ranging from The Rock, to Brock Lesnar, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, Batista, etc. How many of the people that voted Andre have even watched a match of his, apart from his few bouts at 'mania?
     
    #64
  15. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
    E-Fed Mod

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    Cena is a bigger draw and known internationally because he has the WWE machine behind with a rocket ready to shove up his ass as needed. Andre was known internationally during the territory days when the was no giant Corporate machine marketing the shit out of him. Had he wrestled the same time Andre did he would just be another big guy. Without the WWE Machine Cena wouldn't be where he is now.
    Great he's beaten the best of his time, He's also lost a ton to those same people. Some of those Loses were downright embarrassing (The Rock after being gone for a very longtime & Being tossed around like a rag doll by Lesnar pop to mind quickly) On the Other hand Andre has beaten a who's who of Legends and Hall of Famers but the difference is he rarely lost. Just go back a bit in this thread and take a look at Andre's Win/Loss record

    Not as much as some people arguing for him but enough to know most people arguing against him aren't giving him anywhere near the credit he deserves.
     
    #65
  16. stillboy21

    stillboy21 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    In case of a tie, my vote is Andre
     
    #66
  17. Dmbfantomas

    Dmbfantomas Bald Billy was Better

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    Come on John, this is exactly the fight you should win. You're losing late...pull this out.

    Let's go Cena! I like you more than Andre. Mainly because from everyone I've ever met that's had the displeasure of working with him, he was a detestable human being who treated children like shit and was a total racist.
     
    #67
  18. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    You're killing me smalls. However you want to define it, GSB and I weren't arguing.

    Obviously you didn't read the article. My first link referenced an article from Mentalfloss.com that recognized Andre the Giant as a potential eighth wonder of the world without a shred of sarcasm or patronization in its recognition of him.

    If you had bothered to read the article before casually dismissing it for being on Wikipedia, you'd have noticed that it too didn't contain a shred of sarcasm. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, but their army of senior editors will shut down your edit if you can't substantiate it. They let someone publish Andre the Giant as a potential eighth wonder of the world.

    That article states that he was "never officially sworn in". There have been plenty of contenders for eighth wonder of the world, and the only idea that Adam Baker could come up with was Andre the Giant. I never claimed that any of these articles were proof that Andre is the eighth wonder of the world, my point was that he's recognized respectfully around the internet by people who care nothing for pro-wrestling.

    So... the credits to the Princess Bride are how you determine whether or not Andre's ability to hold down a nickname like The Eight Wonder of the World is legit? I'm just going to pass on this one, for fuck's sake.

    I keep hearing this same point, that John Cena will win because he's at a disadvantage. No, John Cena is not the one who has to overcome here. Andre is at war right now with opinions like yours that aren't actually based on anything, he's been on the ropes since this thread started and he's the one who has to prove himself.

    You keep bringing up how this match being in the US really makes a difference. How in the fuck does that make a difference? What example do you have of Andre not winning over an American audience? Andre loved the fans, and the fans love Andre.

    You are seriously underselling the people who Andre has beaten so far if you just write them off as fodder for a hackneyed tournament outcome where the smaller "good" guy gets to beat the bigger "bad" guy. Those weren't filler matches, those were wars in their own right.

    While I disagree that this is for an actual Championship just because it's the name of the region, I think that -- if it was for a belt -- a much more crowd pleasing outcome is for Andre to finally get his due.

    Don't start with "John Cena wins because he always beats the odds" and then round out your post with "Andre loses because he just can't win a belt". Andre is the one beating the odds here by making this one go down to the wire.

    NJPW, April 1st 1982, The Madison Square Garden Tournament, Andre won that final by beating Killer Khan. It was a round robin tournament that included Antonio Inoki, The Iron Sheik, Dick Murdoch, Riki Choshu and Tatsumi Fujinami.
     
    #68
  19. JJYanks121

    JJYanks121 The Mouth of the South Shore

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    I hope you're proud of yourself for completely misunderstanding my post and then going about arguing with yourself. I say that because nothing you said actually counters anything I said, it's taking select words and creating your own counter argument.

    What I said is that eras DO make a difference in terms of how people are seen. Let me try again. If Big Show existed in 1970 and debuted a day before Andre, he'd be Andre. Not flipping face and heel, not being a guy people go over to get to the top, he'd be Andre. Why? Because he's a giant and nobody had seen that before (again, Andre is debuting the next night so Show is first). What made Andre a draw was that NOBODY else looked like him so people DID come to see him as a sideshow and promoters obliged by simply parading him out there to be a spectacle. He was a spectacle because of how big he was. There is no debating this.

    Your comparison to Brock Lesnar then is WAY off base. Andre didn't do anything greater than anybody else other than being very large. Yes, he could move a bit in his younger years, but the draw is someone OF HIS SIZE moving, not that he moved better than others.

    So then, and it may not have been this post, you suggested that Cena wouldn't be a draw in Andre's day? Well, let's examine that. We have a strong, muscular, good-looking Italian man with almost superhuman strength and off the charts charisma. Nope, a company like the WWWF would have no use for someone like that.........

    As I said before, which you completely ignored because it's detrimental to your case, is that Cena is the modern day BRUNO SAMMARTINO. Andre and Bruno never fought. Not once. So you can run through all these other people Andre fought but it was never Bruno. Now why is that? Well, it's because Andre would have to lose and promoters didn't want to take away from Andre's traveling draw power in that way. He wasn't brought in to beat the top babyface of promotions, he was brought in to TAG with people like that.

    So let's bring this around. A guy like John Cena is a top star in ANY era. Being good-looking, charismatic, and possessing ridiculous strength will always offer you a chance to be a star. Thus, Cena in the 70's in Andre's prime is a top star that Andre wouldn't fight. Now, Andre in 20005-2016 is a big guy that would be used like Big Show. Keep trying to argue against that but with working for only ONE company in this day and age, do you really think Andre would be booked the same as the 70's? Of course not. He'd be booked like Big Show because they're the same kind of guy. So, Andre in 2007 let's say, would be booked to lose to Cena. He'd be a guy that people beat to get over in Cena's world.

    In conclusion, Andre holds the lure of being an international star because he was the first of his kind. Had anybody come before him that had his build and size, he'd be significantly less important. John Cena, however, with tons of competition of muscular, good-looking, charismatic guys, rose to the top of a crowded industry and never left. A guy like Cena is timeless and he's a better pro wrestler than Andre the Giant. I'm sorry that the vote went the way it did, because clearly people were not willing to look at things this way. It sucks, but what can you do.
     
    #69
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  20. tdmoon

    tdmoon Pre-Show Stalwart

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    If anyone has any doubt who to vote for, just read over the posts by enviousdominous in this thread. He has hit pretty much everything I would write and done it better. Very few-if any-wrestlers are as legendary as Andre and Cena isn't one of them. Andre for the win.
     
    #70
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  21. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    John Cena is a great man. He's a superior human being to most, and one day history will honor him with the status of a timeless veteran.

    John Cena, and every other great like him, crossed a bridge that Andre built.

    Here's to Andre:

    [YOUTUBE]g1tOjiyTNJI[/YOUTUBE]
     
    #71
  22. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    A fitting end. Not a bad tournament this year after all. Drop the confetti & crack open the beer. Sorry John, maybe next year.

    [​IMG]
     
    #72
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  23. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    The well-deserving wrestler won this tournament.

    This tournament consisted of great upsets. Overall a great tournament and a great and giant winner. ;)
     
    #73
  24. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    Congrats to Andre, would have been a great outcome either way and it really turned out to be a war which I wasn't really expecting. I think I'm more happy for enviousdominous than I am Andre. He almost singlehandedly won Andre this thing and deserves some props for his effort.

    Good on you man.
     
    #74
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  25. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Andre celebrates his birthday with a tournament win & a case of wine. Had no idea it was his birthday today, so that is a nice coincidence.
     
    #75

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