Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (6) Harley Race

[klunderbunker]

This is a fifth round match in the Championship Region and it is a standard one on one match. It will be held at AT&T Stadium in Dallas, Texas. Assume one week has passed since the previous round, meaning all damage might not be healed. Starting with this round, damage will directly carry over to the next round based on the margin of victory. In other words, the more votes someone has against them, the more damage they have sustained.

#1. John Cena

VS.

#6. Harley Race​

Polls will be open for six days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[enviousdominous]

For what they're worth, a bunch of thoughts from EnviousDominous regarding this match.

Fair warning; I'm going to say nice things about John Cena that may come across as pandering for the sake of fooling people into thinking that I'm impartial. I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, and I really do feel like an ass for some of the things I've said about Cena in the past. Yadda yadda yadda, on with the long-winded article so I can just vote already.

John Cena is the clear favorite to win this one. I can't possibly refute that. While John had to endure a sixty minute match with the hardcore legend Terry Funk -- who himself managed to defeat Lou Thesz -- in the last round, he won by a clear enough margin to show that Funk probably lost all his steam after a third of the time went by and didn't put up much of a fight afterward. While it was the closest anyone came to beating John, it was still pretty much a walk for John Cena.

Harley Race entered a TLC match against Bret Hart, and for the time being maintained his status as one of the greatest of all time by (barely) beating him. I can honestly say that in an iron man match, Bret would have been the clear favorite to win against either man. Dare I say, Bret is a much stronger challenge than Terry Funk.

While John and Harley haven't won a WZ tournament to date, both men have beaten former winners. This difference in my mind being, this years tournament is its own tournament. Harley has amazingly knocked off two former winners thus far in Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart, and John Cena has been enjoying a comparably simple path to his current place. Seeding has a funny way of challenging different performers in different ways, from what I've seen Harley has gone way beyond even my expectation of him.

John Cena is most certainly not a fool and he wouldn't just assume that fighting Harley Race would be a walk in the park. While being ready for Harley Race is most certainly smart, it doesn't guarantee victory even for someone like Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart or John Cena.

I've seen Harley hold his own against young punks, indomitable mainstays and grizzled veterans. He has what it takes to beat John Cena, and that's enough for him to earn my faith that a vote for Harley wouldn't be wasted.

Vote Harley Race.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Harley Race took out HBK and Bret Hart. Talk about making a statement. However, him also beating Cena seems like a big stretch. I'm going to side with Cena on this one.

The reason because Race won against HBK and Hart, was mainly based on match stipulation, even though him beating Hart in a ladder-based match was kinda, weird.

I remember when everyone kept saying that Race should win against HBK because it was a Street Fight, and Race is this old school badass. Noone talked about superior ability or impact in the bussiness. Guess what, this is not a Street Fight. Maybe Cena isn't as good as Harley Race in the ring, but this guy has been the face of pro wrestling for the past 11 years. Not many have lasted as long as him in the ME scene.

Cena should definately win this one and move on in this tournamet. Vote Cena.

 

[JGlass]

I've seen Harley hold his own against young punks, indomitable mainstays and grizzled veterans. He has what it takes to beat John Cena, and that's enough for him to earn my faith that a vote for Harley wouldn't be wasted.

Vote Harley Race.

This could have been your whole post. Everything else was just fluff.

Harley Race isn't beating John Cena. I'll give Race his due: he's one of the biggest pre-Hogan names in this tournament, which is one of the reasons he's the only one left.

But John Cena is perhaps the best ever.

John Cena was put in a very difficult situation when he was called upon to be the face of professional wrestling. Die hard wrestling fans had been able to access "backstage" information about the wrestlers they saw on their TV for years, but the internet culture that we all know and love today really started to take form around the time Cena was becoming the biggest name in professional wrestling. Social media allowed people to share their opinions with thousands of people at a time from around the world, videos of wrestling shows could be shared as YouTube was being pioneered, and internet was quickly moving away from being a luxury service and towards being a necessity.

Basically, John Cena's rise to prominence happened to coincide with the world getting much smaller, and therefore WWE's presence became much bigger. WWE created their YouTube and Twitter accounts in 2007, their Facebook page before that, and WWE.com was increasingly incorporated into their brand and image around that time.

The last time the WWE had had such an explosive growth in such a short period of time was when they decided to leave the NWA and they made Buddy Rogers their poster boy. That was a mistake. Making John Cena their poster boy with the rise of the internet was not a mistake. In fact, it was one of the best decisions WWE had ever made.

John Cena's look, tenacity, public persona, ability to consistently put on top notch matches, and last but not least his longevity, made him the perfect choice for the face of the company as the WWE's visibility increase with the rise of the internet. He was so reliable that, despite the fact that live crowds seemed to hate the guy, the WWE's power kept increasing to the point where they were no longer a wrestling promotion, but a global entertainment product.

Harley Race never had to face as tall a task as John Cena did. Most nights, Harley Race only had to worry about entertaining a few thousand fans. John Cena had to worry about entertaining millions and millions every damn day. And he did. Eleven years after John Cena beat JBL for the WWE Championship at WrestleMania 21, he is still the biggest name in professional wrestling. And in that time, the WWE's brand power has increase exponentially. Just a taste: WrestleMania 21 was held at the Staple Center in front of an audience of 20,000. Just two years later, John Cena and HBK main evented WrestleMania 23 in front of 80,000 at Ford Field in Detroit, and there hasn't been a WrestleMania featuring John Cena that dipped below 70,000 ever since.

Harley Race is a great wrestler for his time, no doubt, but John Cena is one of the most important figures in the history of the wrestling business.

Vote Cena.

 

[nightmare]

Great point about the internet age we live in today helping get Cena over with the world, JGlass. There is only one problem. Race was over across the globe without the help of fancy technology & a billion dollar media giant behind him.


Tough as nails Harley Race became a name to fear by kicking ass. Recognized and respected for his craft in one of the better times in wrestling. There is a reason his name still comes up & countless wrestlers cite him as an inspiring factor to their career. As big as John is, I think Race getting over in his time was a bigger deal. He was the man, when many others were around able to be placed as the top guy. Cena became the man to fill a huge void & sell merch. Sure he works hard & deserves his applause, but Race is the better man here.


Tough fight. For me, probably the closest fight in this round. I think Harley withstands the onslaught though.

 

[JGlass]

Great point about the internet age we live in today helping get Cena over with the world, JGlass. There is only one problem. Race was over across the globe without the help of fancy technology & a billion dollar media giant behind him.

My point wasn't that the internet got Cena over. My point was Cena got the internet over.

That's hyperbole, and kind of a joke... but kind of true. Wrestling pairing up with the internet was crucial to the success of the business, and Cena is the wrestler that led the charge in facilitating that. You can't discount how important a role he played in shaping wrestling today. In my opinion, he's surpassed Stone Cold in level of influence because of that and puts him closer to Hulk Hogan.

Meanwhile, Harley Race did get over worldwide... but that was a far easier feat before the internet. As I mentioned before, most nights Harley Race's audience was a few thousand people. John Cena had to worry about entertaining millions all week long. His matches had to be enjoyable for people who were watching all 20 minutes and for people who were only watching the last 20 seconds on the internet two days later.

Basically, John Cena has accomplished things Harley Race couldn't have even conceived of.

Tough as nails Harley Race became a name to fear by kicking ass. Recognized and respected for his craft in one of the better times in wrestling. There is a reason his name still comes up & countless wrestlers cite him as an inspiring factor to their career. As big as John is, I think Race getting over in his time was a bigger deal. He was the man, when many others were around able to be placed as the top guy. Cena became the man to fill a huge void & sell merch. Sure he works hard & deserves his applause, but Race is the better man here.


Tough fight. For me, probably the closest fight in this round. I think Harley withstands the onslaught though.

All of this is meaningless, you do nothing to defend your point. Why is Harley Race getting over in the 70s a bigger deal than Cena getting over in the 2000s? Cena had to impress more people for a longer period of time in more of the world. He also wrestled in a time where he was almost constantly visible to the public eye, which only gives him more of an opportunity to ruin his career by doing something stupid in his personal life. Oh, and let's not forget that professional wrestling was almost undone by Chris Benoit's murder suicide and Cena somehow managed to not only save the WWE's image, but also make them into a family company.

I'd also point out that not one person is over like John Cena is over in the 21st century. There were lots of people who were over the way Harley Race was over in the 70s.

So yeah, I can't see any way where Harley Race being over in the 70s is more impressive than Cena being over in the 21st century. But please, go ahead and try to explain why.

 

[nightmare]

Thanks for agreeing it was harder to get over then. Next point.

Cena is only over with at best half the audience. Basically just kids and some adults. Do you not hear the boos that seem to drown out the cheers? He may have been best equipped to tow the company PG line, but he is not as over with fans as some others are/were. Taker, Bryan, Punk, Lesnar are all guys that come to mind in the last decade or so that seem to have had the entire crowd behind them. Cena is a nice, hard working guy who was a very logical choice to take the reigns for the next era, but Harley seemed to command the crowd more decisively whether heel or face.

Race got butts in seats to watch a match heel or face and didnt need a media juggernaut to do so. Super nice guy Cena is a merch man who most fans seem to hate regardless of how great he is at public relations.

In ring, he is good yet causes groans of boredom when he makes his comeback rush. That isnt exactly a good sign from someone who is supposed to be the next Hogan.

 

[enviousdominous]

This could have been your whole post. Everything else was just fluff.

Ah, you're offended by fluff. I was trying to show that I was taking the potential of both men into account before making a final decision. My apologies good Sir, I will now read your book about how John Cena conquered the internet that's... overflowing with fluff.

Harley Race isn't beating John Cena. I'll give Race his due: he's one of the biggest pre-Hogan names in this tournament, which is one of the reasons he's the only one left.

While I'm sure that Harley Race greatly appreciates you giving him your due, maybe you could have shared a few accolades of his to weigh against that of John Cena. Saying that he's only here because of name recognition is a little back-handed.

But John Cena is perhaps the best ever.

Why perhaps?

John Cena was put in a very difficult situation when he was called upon to be the face of professional wrestling. Die hard wrestling fans had been able to access "backstage" information about the wrestlers they saw on their TV for years, but the internet culture that we all know and love today really started to take form around the time Cena was becoming the biggest name in professional wrestling. Social media allowed people to share their opinions with thousands of people at a time from around the world, videos of wrestling shows could be shared as YouTube was being pioneered, and internet was quickly moving away from being a luxury service and towards being a necessity.

After eliminating the fluff from this paragraph, you're basically saying that the internet was a monster that threatened to destroy pro-wrestling if Vince McMahon didn't put the right person on top to either combat or cajole the world wide web. I'm not sure how any of that relates to a match against Harley Race, so... thanks for the history lesson I guess.

Basically, John Cena's rise to prominence happened to coincide with the world getting much smaller, and therefore WWE's presence became much bigger. WWE created their YouTube and Twitter accounts in 2007, their Facebook page before that, and WWE.com was increasingly incorporated into their brand and image around that time.

So, the internet and not John Cena caused the WWE to become the media powerhouse that it is today? It sounds like you're saying that John Cena's fame is coincidental to an event that he had no control over.

The last time the WWE had had such an explosive growth in such a short period of time was when they decided to leave the NWA and they made Buddy Rogers their poster boy. That was a mistake. Making John Cena their poster boy with the rise of the internet was not a mistake. In fact, it was one of the best decisions WWE had ever made.

Ah okay. So after three long winded paragraphs you finally get to your point of "The WWE made a good decision of making John Cena their top guy, because Buddy Rogers and the internet." I really hope you're getting to a point about Harley Race, because believe it or not there's an actual match to discuss here.

John Cena's look, tenacity, public persona, ability to consistently put on top notch matches, and last but not least his longevity, made him the perfect choice for the face of the company as the WWE's visibility increase with the rise of the internet. He was so reliable that, despite the fact that live crowds seemed to hate the guy, the WWE's power kept increasing to the point where they were no longer a wrestling promotion, but a global entertainment product.

Well, John Cena isn't fighting a cloud of smoke. You might want to try taking all these wonderful things you have to say about John Cena and acknowledge what advantages of Harley Race's wrestling game would be negated by them.

Some crowds loved hating John Cena, the hatred probably helped the WWE because it made him so notorious. I would argue that a higher percentage of fans respected Harley Race when compared to John Cena.

Harley Race never had to face as tall a task as John Cena did. Most nights, Harley Race only had to worry about entertaining a few thousand fans. John Cena had to worry about entertaining millions and millions every damn day. And he did.

I'm just gonna' stop you right there.

First off, I would hardly call John Cena's place in the prowrestling world a disadvantageous one when compared to Harley Race. When John Cena came into UPW, he was picked to be a future top guy, it didn't matter if he was too green. He had the look and he had a nifty robot gimmick, promoters saw dollar signs when they saw him. Before Cena even made it big in OVW, he was the star of documentaries meant to showcase the behind the scenes occurrences for pro-wrestling hopefuls. From day one he was on a direct path to stardom, and I'll admit that raw talent helped him along the way. When he debuted on Smackdown, they had him force Kurt Angle to pull out a fluke win. John Cena fought hard to get where he is today, but he didn't fight nearly has hard as Harley Race.

Harley Race wasn't picked to be a future top guy before people started seeing his name on the card, and he was entering a pro-wrestling world where the competition was a Hell of a lot more fierce than it was for John Cena. Harley had to earn the respect of guys like Dory Funk Jr., Verne Gagne and Bill Watts by selling tickets and by proving that he could take the worst they had to offer. He didn't work for a monolithic company like the WWE that had a stranglehold over the industry, he had to prove himself everywhere he went. Everywhere Harley went, he was a top guy. John Cena has never had to be a top guy anywhere else except for the top company that happened to choose to build itself around him before he proved he was worthy of that honor.

Also; John Cena doesn't entertain millions of fans everyday. I don't know where you get that number from.

Eleven years after John Cena beat JBL for the WWE Championship at WrestleMania 21, he is still the biggest name in professional wrestling. And in that time, the WWE's brand power has increase exponentially. Just a taste: WrestleMania 21 was held at the Staple Center in front of an audience of 20,000. Just two years later, John Cena and HBK main evented WrestleMania 23 in front of 80,000 at Ford Field in Detroit, and there hasn't been a WrestleMania featuring John Cena that dipped below 70,000 ever since.

Harley Race won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship in 1973 from Dory Funk Jr., and this was when he wasn't even considered to be worthy of top guy status. He was the best bad guy they had, and Dory Sr. didn't want his son to lose the belt to a good guy like Jack Brisco. The fans rallied behind Harley Race and after winning the belt for a second time in 1977, anywhere Harley Race went he was the man to beat. Harley beat both funks in Texas, he beat Dusty Rhodes in Florida and he beat Giant Baba in Japan. As far as attendance goes; one could argue that Roman Reigns and Triple H are responsible for over 100,000 tickets being sold.

Harley Race is a great wrestler for his time, no doubt, but John Cena is one of the most important figures in the history of the wrestling business.

John Cena didn't have to make pro-wrestling any more mainstream than it already was, he was the guy that the WWE chose to represent them when they were on a roll anyway.

Harley Race was a pioneer for the NWA for a decade and he beat the John Cena's of ever territory he went to.

Vote Harley Race.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

I'd like to add something.

People tend to say that Cena got over due to technology and stuff like that and that legends of the past didn't have such means. Does that really matter? Each wrestler had different competition in different eras and what trully matters is that both of them managed to become top guys in their eras and promotions.

I'd also like to say that, Cena has so much competition against him in his rise to the top. It's not like Austin or Hogan, who in their first years didn't have anyone else in their level. Cena had rivals in Batista and Triple H and even Kurt Angle who were competing for the #1 spot in the company. There was also legends like Undertaker and HBK around. Plus there were other promising young stars like Edge and Orton. And Cena managed to rise past through all them.

I also think that Cena's way too underrated in this tournament. John Cena has been a World Champion of 1,000+ days in his whole career. Even if the brand split helped that record, it's still impressive. Also given the nature of modern wrestling, where wrestlers don't really hold the world title for long or have long reigns.

I also want to state that Cena has the entire crowd behind him. Cena's a draw. He's been involved in some of the biggest matches and feuds the world has ever seen: Cena vs Rock, Cena vs HBK, Cena vs HHH, Cena vs Edge, Cena vs Orton. It takes two to make a successful match and feud.

You think that Cena doesn't have the crowd behind him? Go and rewatch Extreme Rules 2012 which was in Alistate Arena. Just 9 months ago that crowd was booing John Cena to hell. 9 months later Cena walks in to face Brock Lesnar. Cena enters the match in his usual boos. Know what happens mid match? People start to cheer for Cena to make his comeback! And when he wins? A big pop from the crowd. No boos no nothing.

People boo Cena because it's a trend. It might was heat back in 2006, but know, everyone in the crowd knows that Cena's good and they respect him.

 

[nightmare]

This just in! The winner of the 2016 WZT is...... the internet??


Moving on.

I also think that Cena's way too underrated in this tournament.

No, he isnt. He gets his fair due. He always makes it pretty far.

John Cena has been a World Champion of 1,000+ days in his whole career. Even if the brand split helped that record, it's still impressive. Also given the nature of modern wrestling, where wrestlers don't really hold the world title for long or have long reigns.

More impressive than Race having one reign lasting almost as long as Cena's entire combined total? Cena has had the main strap 12 times for about 1,200 days total. Race? 7 times, 1,800 days. That does not even count his US title run, or his numerous other belts taken over the years. Championship glory points go to Race. Extra points even, because his belts didnt spin like a kids toy.

I also want to state that Cena has the entire crowd behind him.

I admit I had a few drinks last night, but while I was enjoying my whiskey, did someone change the meaning of the word 'entire'?

When the fuck has Cena ever had the entire crowd behind him? Some may have sat in silence & yes, even sometimes the cheers were loud- but Cena has plenty of people who boo the shit out of him. The most split crowd reactions ever for a man considered to be the face of the company. He has had his heroic moments for applause, but week in & week out, RAW has been witness to him receiving a very mixed reaction.

Cena's a draw. He's been involved in some of the biggest matches and feuds the world has ever seen: Cena vs Rock, Cena vs HBK, Cena vs HHH, Cena vs Edge, Cena vs Orton. It takes two to make a successful match and feud.

It sure does. Cena may draw, but you can also say that while half the crowd bought a ticket to cheer on their hero,the other half bought theirs to cheer the other guy.

Rock? People love the Attitude Era & Rock is one of the best trash talkers. People shelled out money to see him go at Cena because Rock is a legend.

HBK? Again, AE. He is 10x the wrestler than Cena & those matches were successful because Shawn is fantastic. Especially when making his opponent look good.


HHH? Again, AE. Plus, he was one of few top guys around who the machine needed to help establish their new poster boy as a credible threat. A ton of people were fucking pissed he lost to John, but it is understandable.


Orton & Edge were the best of the rest & perfect heels to go against the company man. Cena has his place for his look, being a good citizen in the PG era of wrestling, a helpful brand split, thinning number of true superstars active & the backing of a media juggernaut that loves to sell wristbands\spinner belts to kids. I will give him this: his US title run recently was some damn fine entertainment. IMO better than anything he did in previous title runs. He made that belt mean something again. A belt that was first brought to glory by none other than Harley Race.


Race earned his place by being a tough motherfucker back when it meant something to be so & beating the top people in multiple promotions by being a great wrestler. No internet or neon shirts needed. Race can take what Cena has to offer & give it right back to him. Cena is getting beat the fuck up here. Race went in to towns & beat up their best. Just as he walks in here now to do. Hell, Race even slammed Andre before Hogan & the WWF historical revisionist society made it a big deal like it Hulk was the only guy to do so. He has the resume, titles & status to prove it. He trumps Cena in everything except merch sales & the tournament is to crown the best wrestler- not who has the most t-shirt sales.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

While Harley is a bloody legend in this business who drew as champion in all his territories except the WWF, Cena is basically the Forth Face on the Mount Rushmore Of All Time Best along with Hogan, Austin & The Rock.

This has a Cena win written on it but the thing is, and stay with me here, what if Harley no shows. I don't see Harley putting a GIMMICK like Cena over ever.

EVER! or I could be wrong

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

John Cena, at his peak, was not booed by half the audience. And today, a lot of people who either boo or do the "Cena sucks" portion of his usual chant are just doing it to join in. And I'm not even trying to say they're doing it to "be cool" as that has a negative stipulation attached (though I would certainly argue that, at least at one time, it was the case). I mean you can literally see people in the audience chanting both halves of the chant just to join in.

Also the internet can make it hard to stay over simply due to saturation. People can have access to anyone at any given time. In the case of wrestling, the person easily found is the face of the company or the most over. The same wrestler being that guy for over a decade now makes it easy for them to be oversaturated with him, thus sick of him. The fact that Cena has still consistently drawn numbers and sales, still, in that entire time says something.

I'm not taking away from Harley Race by any means. Getting over the way he did with such limited availability is a great feat. The man was a great wrestler and gets far in this tournament for a reason.

 

[Tastycles]

John Cena has done something no other wrestler has ever done. At a time when there is 7 hours of original content, a total saturation of online content, monthly 3 hour long PPVs, crossovers with every sort of industry imaginable and a domestic audience of millions, a weekly 5 figure live audience for Raw, an international presence like none before, he has managed to remain on top of the tree for 11 years and counting. Harley Race didn't even achieve that in the 70s.

 

[JGlass]

Thanks for agreeing it was harder to get over then. Next point.

Can't back up your own point, so you pretend that I agreed with you.

Bruh, you can't even cite where I supposedly agreed with you. What are you doing?

Cena is only over with at best half the audience. Basically just kids and some adults. Do you not hear the boos that seem to drown out the cheers? He may have been best equipped to tow the company PG line, but he is not as over with fans as some others are/were. Taker, Bryan, Punk, Lesnar are all guys that come to mind in the last decade or so that seem to have had the entire crowd behind them. Cena is a nice, hard working guy who was a very logical choice to take the reigns for the next era, but Harley seemed to command the crowd more decisively whether heel or face.

If CM Punk, Taker, Bryan, Punk, or Lesnar are all more over than Cena, then why is Cena headlining the overwhelming majority of the shows he's in? Why is he the one bringing home the bacon?

Go ahead, say because the WWE is determined to shove Cena down our throat. Be one of those guys. Help Cena's already immense lead on your boy Race grow by uttering one of the phrases Cena-haters have clung to like static.

Race got butts in seats to watch a match heel or face and didnt need a media juggernaut to do so. Super nice guy Cena is a merch man who most fans seem to hate regardless of how great he is at public relations.

Stop talking out your ass. You're just spewing tired rhetoric with no real backing.

How can you say John Cena doesn't put butts in seats? Since main eventing WrestleMania 22, John Cena hasn't wrestled a single Mania with less than 70,000 people in the stands. Nobody else can make that claim.

John Cena has put more asses in seats than any other wrestler in the history of wrestling. If your argument hinges on that, you should just give up now.

In ring, he is good yet causes groans of boredom when he makes his comeback rush. That isnt exactly a good sign from someone who is supposed to be the next Hogan.

Is it 2007? Because if I'm going back in time, I want to go way further. Preferably to a time I can buy stock in Google for hella cheap.

Nobody is groaning at Cena comebacks anymore, because people have finally shut up and accepted the fact that Cena wasn't doing anything that every great wrestler before him hadn't done. Cena is no longer the divisive name that he used to be and fans have widely accepted that he is one of the best wrestlers alive, if not ever. And why shouldn't they? He's put on classics with the likes of HBK, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Bock Lesnar, Triple H, Edge, Randy Orton, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Antonio Cesaro... and the list goes on. This is a guy who made Zack Ryder and R-Truth into important parts of WWE programming. This was the guy that was worthy of being the man to wrestle The Rock upon his return to wrestling.

 

[nightmare]

Bro, you just went on a tirade about how easy it is to access wrestling now. So it would stand to reason that getting over worldwide was more difficult to do by tape trading, reputation & word of mouth.

As far as those numbers you quote? Can you tell me they are the direct responsibility of Cena & have nothing to do with anyone else on the card? Is there a voter registration card that comes with a PPV ticket where those people said John was the main reason of their attendance?

Are you going to do anything to combat the argument of Race walking in and beating the best of his time? His number of titles? His superior wrestling ability? All you have done so far is spout off about the internet & nothing else of any importance.


I dont blindly hate Cena. I respect him more now than before, but understand why he is where he is. Does not mean he trumps how Race got over or beat the best.

 

[JGlass]

Bro, you just went on a tirade about how easy it is to access wrestling now. So it would stand to reason that getting over worldwide was more difficult to do by tape trading, reputation & word of mouth.

You're strawmanning my point. My original point was that in an age where every form of entertainment imaginable is at your fingertips regardless of where you are in the world, John Cena not only made professional wrestling relevant in the age of the internet, he helped it thrive.

The fact that you're debating about John Cena right now and not watching porn is a testament to that. Porn is just a few clicks away! And yet instead of watching naked women you are here talking about mostly naked men.

Thanks John Cena.

As far as those numbers you quote? Can you tell me they are the direct responsibility of Cena & have nothing to do with anyone else on the card? Is there a voter registration card that comes with a PPV ticket where those people said John was the main reason of their attendance?

Can you tell me Hulk Hogan is the one responsible for drawing those big numbers at WrestleMania 3?

It's widely accepted that the main eventer is the one responsible for drawing the crowd. If he wasn't, wouldn't people just leave after sitting through two and a half hours of wrestling if the last guy was someone they didn't care about?

Are you going to do anything to combat the argument of Race walking in and beating the best of his time? His number of titles? His superior wrestling ability? All you have done so far is spout off about the internet & nothing else of any importance.

Because you can claim all the same things about Cena! Cena has also beaten the best of his time (and other times), Cena also has an impressive collection of titles to his name, and Cena has proven time and time again that he's one of the best wrestlers of his time, putting on classics with just about everybody he climbs in the ring with.

It's hilarious that you accuse me of spouting off nothing of importance when your posts have literally NO substance. You keep making general statements like, "Race put butts in seats," but you've yet to cite any attendance numbers for his shows. You say, "Race has beaten the best of his time," but you haven't mentioned a single name that Race has wrestled.

You're really going to win over a bunch of people who hate Cena but can't explain why with these soundbites.

 

[nightmare]

John Cena not only made professional wrestling relevant in the age of the internet, he helped it thrive.

Made it relevant? When the internet started becoming a bigger deal in the mid to late 90's Cena wasnt around. By the time Cena got to debut in WWE in 02, wrestling was everywhere on the internet & very relevant. The nature of the business changing in regards to media distribution & the need of fans to soak up as much of that as possible was what made it thrive. Cena is not responsible for wrestling's relevance or growth on the internet. The business thrives now due to a billion dollar media giant & all the wonderful wrestlers across the globe that fans want to see. It is not on the shoulders of just Cena like you have attempted to imply.

Can you tell me Hulk Hogan is the one responsible for drawing those big numbers at WrestleMania 3?

It's widely accepted that the main eventer is the one responsible for drawing the crowd. If he wasn't, wouldn't people just leave after sitting through two and a half hours of wrestling if the last guy was someone they didn't care about?

I would say Hogan was a very large factor to that, yes. He was waaaaaayy more over than Cena could hope to be. Cena may be popular among his supporters, but Hulkamania was a fucking epidemic that infected the hearts of damn near the entire world.


As far as the main event argument goes, that may have been more the case back in the day than it is now. Fans are wrapped up in the entire production for the most part & seem to be very passionate about the lower card talent than seemingly every before. By your formula the latest WM draw was due to HHH and/or Roman Reigns? I doubt it. More people wanted to see things like the Divas Title, Owens\Zayn clash in the ladder match, New Day being themselves & whatever legends showed up.


They all could have left before the HHH\Reigns match, but for all that money paid for tickets- why not just stay & boo Roman and crossing your fingers that the inevitable would not happen? But, since John happened to show up- I bet you are gonna say that he was the one who drew the largest WM crowd ever....

It's hilarious that you accuse me of spouting off nothing of importance when your posts have literally NO substance. You keep making general statements like, "Race put butts in seats," but you've yet to cite any attendance numbers for his shows. You say, "Race has beaten the best of his time," but you haven't mentioned a single name that Race has wrestled.

You're really going to win over a bunch of people who hate Cena but can't explain why with these soundbites.

Well I figured I would just poke holes in your silly internet based erotic story about how Cena is the cause of everything good & assume you know a little history about other wrestlers. I dont have the time to create a spreadhseet or have a mental list of attendance numbers like others, but I do know off the top some big names Race has beaten. Although you may just dismiss them due to the fact some didnt wrestle during the internet age. Race took down Baba, both Funk's, Kerry Von Erich, Dusty Rhodes, JYD, Superstar BG, Ric Flair....




I am not trying to change people's minds. Some are smart enough to already know the facts or match\title history. Others will vote because they have no knowledge past 1996. Some will make a pick based on merch sales or 'drawing power'. Others will vote on who can just beat the fuck out of the other guy. Harley has the legacy and ability to warrant a much better fight than this vote may show in the end.


This is just what happens eventually. A deserving guy gets taken down by Cena while people make up reasons for or dismiss the relevant reasons against. Cena is a big deal in our time & fresh in the minds usually beats out legitimate legacy in these things once in a while.

 

[NSL]

Yeah...it's Cena here, without much of an argument being made for Race. Race is a great, and I'll always respect what he did for the business, but we live in an age where Cena pretty much is the business. He's been out for a while, and the top news reports are about when he's coming back, over anything going with the rest of the roster.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

So let me get this straight: people here argue that Cena is so successful only because he sells so many things and merch??

I thought that Cena is selling some much merch because he is successful, not the other way around.

So you people tell me that, if the WWE decides to flood the e-shop with Ryback merch, then Ryback would become the #1 guy in the company?

Get your facts straight.

 

[JGlass]

Made it relevant? When the internet started becoming a bigger deal in the mid to late 90's Cena wasnt around. By the time Cena got to debut in WWE in 02, wrestling was everywhere on the internet & very relevant.

You're overestimating the relevance of the internet in entertainment prior to the rise of social media and YouTube. There's not a major show on television now that doesn't have some sort of internet connection whether it be a twitter hashtag, a fan forum, exclusively online content, etc. Almost no shows had that back in 2002.

You're either making things up now to try to prove your nonexistent point or you lack the knowledge of the history of mass media that I clearly have and you clearly do not. And they said a degree in communications was worthless. Clearly they didn't expect me to argue with wrestling nerds on the internet.

The nature of the business changing in regards to media distribution & the need of fans to soak up as much of that as possible was what made it thrive. Cena is not responsible for wrestling's relevance or growth on the internet. The business thrives now due to a billion dollar media giant & all the wonderful wrestlers across the globe that fans want to see. It is not on the shoulders of just Cena like you have attempted to imply.

It's not entirely on his shoulders, but it's more on his shoulders than anyone else's. Vince McMahon might have been the brain behind the business, but even the best businessman couldn't sell snow to Eskimos (is that racist?). The reason the WWE has succeeded to the degree it has in the mid 2000s onwards is because they had a phenomenal product, and that product's name was John Cena.

That's not even a point for debate. I'm honestly shocked you're still trying to argue about this. What you're doing is essentially the same as saying that Hogan wasn't what drove the WWF to success in the late 80s and early 90s.

I would say Hogan was a very large factor to that, yes. He was waaaaaayy more over than Cena could hope to be. Cena may be popular among his supporters, but Hulkamania was a fucking epidemic that infected the hearts of damn near the entire world.

I'd argue that they're probably similar levels of draw. No doubt Hulkamania was a cultural phenomenon the likes of which has probably never been seen since, but the spectacle of Hulkamania doesn't mean he was any more over than Cena. He was saturated into media every which way, be it non-wrestling television programming, movies, advertisements, and merchandise.

Just like John Cena.

The only difference is that John Cena had a bigger audience. And a smarter audience.

As far as the main event argument goes, that may have been more the case back in the day than it is now. Fans are wrapped up in the entire production for the most part & seem to be very passionate about the lower card talent than seemingly every before. By your formula the latest WM draw was due to HHH and/or Roman Reigns? I doubt it. More people wanted to see things like the Divas Title, Owens\Zayn clash in the ladder match, New Day being themselves & whatever legends showed up.

No it totally was about HHH/Reigns. People might have been pissed, but that's what the overwhelming majority of fans paid for.

They all could have left before the HHH\Reigns match, but for all that money paid for tickets- why not just stay & boo Roman and crossing your fingers that the inevitable would not happen? But, since John happened to show up- I bet you are gonna say that he was the one who drew the largest WM crowd ever....

Wrong again!

Srsly though, how can you say with any certainty what that crowd was thinking? Are you a psychologist that specializes in large crowd mentality?

I know you're not, so don't bother lying.

Well I figured I would just poke holes in your silly internet based erotic story about how Cena is the cause of everything good & assume you know a little history about other wrestlers.

Looks like that strategy isn't paying off for you based on the scoreboard. Might I recommend trying something different? Making a good argument would be a good start.

I dont have the time to create a spreadhseet or have a mental list of attendance numbers like others, but I do know off the top some big names Race has beaten. Although you may just dismiss them due to the fact some didnt wrestle during the internet age. Race took down Baba, both Funk's, Kerry Von Erich, Dusty Rhodes, JYD, Superstar BG, Ric Flair....

Those are some good names. Race has almost beaten as many top stars as John Cena!

I am not trying to change people's minds. Some are smart enough to already know the facts or match\title history. Others will vote because they have no knowledge past 1996. Some will make a pick based on merch sales or 'drawing power'. Others will vote on who can just beat the fuck out of the other guy. Harley has the legacy and ability to warrant a much better fight than this vote may show in the end.


This is just what happens eventually. A deserving guy gets taken down by Cena while people make up reasons for or dismiss the relevant reasons against. Cena is a big deal in our time & fresh in the minds usually beats out legitimate legacy in these things once in a while.

Alright, you've been jetskiing around for a while now, but now you've jumped the shark.

This part of your post basically boils down to, "I am an enlightened wrestling historian and everyone who voted for Cena doesn't understand wrestling like I do."

If that's how you feel, I think this argument is over.

 

[Khalifa]

Like Piggly said, John Cena is on my Mount Rushmore of wrestling. The dude is just a legend, and when he retires I don't think you will find many people that will dislike him, let alone say he isn't on the Rushmore of wrestling. I said it in a previous round that last year, even maybe a few months before 2015, John Cena took his in ring skills to another level and to to me atleast he was the best performer on the roster maybe barring Rollins. He already had it all and then became better. I just really like it because it goes to show Cena isn't just complacent with being not the best (which we already knew but nothing wrong with backing it up after being in the business for so long).

I really like Race, I actually had him to beat Michaels so I am happy he has gotten this far after beating Bret as well, but there is just no way I can see him beating someone who will have the most world championship reigns of all time and is in the top 4 of wrestling all time. Race will put up a fight, we know this, Cena can't be killed though and will move on with an F-U to Race.

 

[nightmare]

I expected Race to lose given how people fap over Cena sometimes, but by this many is a bit much. Glad to see there were only 2 people willing to back up their vote for Race by posting here.

Lets all thank JGlass for his wonderfully dismissive posts about how Cena wins because of, you know, the internet. Not like he had anything going for him besides that worth mentioning. Thank god we have Cena around to keep WWE from falling off the map. Without him the company would surely have become broke over the past decade. If only they had a nice roster of capable wrestlers or even some smart business minded folks at the helm to keep it all going when Cena isnt around.


Once again, Cenawinslol. Congratulations to the most meh of all the legends.

 

[JJYanks121]

I expected Race to lose given how people fap over Cena sometimes, but by this many is a bit much. Glad to see there were only 2 people willing to back up their vote for Race by posting here.

Lets all thank JGlass for his wonderfully dismissive posts about how Cena wins because of, you know, the internet. Not like he had anything going for him besides that worth mentioning. Thank god we have Cena around to keep WWE from falling off the map. Without him the company would surely have become broke over the past decade. If only they had a nice roster of capable wrestlers or even some smart business minded folks at the helm to keep it all going when Cena isnt around.


Once again, Cenawinslol. Congratulations to the most meh of all the legends.

Dude, you're championing a guy who was champion in one of the worst periods in wrestling history (the late 70's). And beyond that, while he was a solid wrestler, if he wasn't HHH's favorite and someone he modeled his game (pardon the pun) after, you likely wouldn't have a chance to talk about him now. He was good, very solid champion in a very bad time for wrestling, but he's nowhere near Cena's level of.........well, really anything having to do with pro wrestling.

Put it this way, Race is known as one of the first to bodyslam Andre. Well, Cena not only put a man of Andre's size on his shoulders, he put ANOTHER man on his shoulders with him and threw them both off. That example is a metaphor for this fight. Harley may have been great, but Cena is far greater.

 

[nightmare]

Well thank god HHH came along. Otherwise nobody would know of such an obscure wrestler like Harley Race.

Cant wait for Cena to face Andre so people can use your metaphor as a reason he should win. I assume that will be a popular stance while you guys dismiss anything actually relevant.

 

[JJYanks121]

Well thank god HHH came along. Otherwise nobody would know of such an obscure wrestler like Harley Race.

Cant wait for Cena to face Andre so people can use your metaphor as a reason he should win. I assume that will be a popular stance while you guys dismiss anything actually relevant.

You really know how to twist words into your own warped mind. I never said Race was obscure. I said he's a great wrestler, just not on the level of Cena. And the HHH comment was such that yeah, if you knew your wrestling history, of course you'd know Harley Race. Similarly, you'd know Ric Flair, but the WWE's love affair with both certainly has given modern fans reason to overvalue both men, to the point where we have both in the final 8 while people like Bruno Sammartino are on the outside looking in.

But see, I respect all generations of wrestlers. I just understand how to compare the wrestler's value in regards to their generation. Race was solid all around and did his job for a while, but he was not a John Cena. Very few are on that level.