Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) Ric Flair vs. (7) Goldberg

[klunderbunker]

This is a fifth round match in the Championship Region and it is a standard one on one match. It will be held at AT&T Stadium in Dallas, Texas. Assume one week has passed since the previous round, meaning all damage might not be healed. Starting with this round, damage will directly carry over to the next round based on the margin of victory. In other words, the more votes someone has against them, the more damage they have sustained.

#1. Ric Flair

VS.

#7. Goldberg​

Polls will be open for six days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well, if Hogan isn't beating Goldberg then I'm guessing neither is Flair.Sure, Flair is the bigger star and definitely could cheat his ass to victory but at this point I'm going for a pyramid down approach for my voting, as such I'd much rather see Goldberg vs. Andre rather than Flair vs. Andre so he's getting my vote (I don't see Sting beating Andre).

Depending on how you vote it would be incredibly easy to vote for Flair over Goldberg, when it comes to careers and accomplishments there is no comparison, one is certainly greater than the other so ask yourself this. Do you really want to see Flair get crushed by Andre or do you want to see someone who could actually give Andre a run for his money?

 

[enviousdominous]

A few things come to mind when I see this matchup.

First off, I see a lot of similarities between CM Punk and Randy Savage. Their promos would come across in different tones, but when they got dead serious the crowd shut up and normally untouchable people would get their feelings hurt. There's also ring attire and the top rope elbow, these things make me imagine that a match against one man would be very similar to a match against the other man.

Ric Flair took on CM Punk in a 3 stages of hell match and beat him by 12 votes. I could imagine a win margin like that meaning that while Punk did his cult fanbase proud and made an example of Ric Flair, Ric is very likely to have prevented the need for a third fall. When you can beat an opponent like CM Punk twice in one night and then still have enough energy to style and profile the night away, you've put everyone else in this tournament on notice.

Goldberg took on Randy Savage in a Hell in a Cell match, and in very non-typical Goldberg fashion he got his win by the tips of his fingernails. Considering how close he came to losing that one, Randy Savage beat, his, ass. We can't really play the game of "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A beats C" when it comes to these kinds of wild cards. The true test is if you actually put the two men in question in the match, and see what happens. Goldberg managed to make the pin when both men couldn't find the strength to stand up on their own, and could have just as easily lost to Randy Savage.

The second thing I wanted to point out is that prime Ric Flair wouldn't let an opportunity like this go away. Goldberg comes into this match damaged to the point where some part of his frame isn't at 100%, and he's going up against a guy like Ric Flair. You can't hide weakness from Ric Flair, and if it's there he has no qualms about exploiting it. Even at 100%; going up against Ric Flair means having to guard your eyes, neck, kidneys and groin at all times.

Ric Flair most certainly won't have as easy a time as he had against CM Punk, but there's too much going for him in this match.

Vote Ric Flair.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

It's true that Goldberg defeated Hogan only because of some stupid stipulation and it's also true that Goldberg defeated Savage due to the fact that they participated in the most brutal match ever created, and who wants to be locked in a cell with a beast like Goldberg?
Savage though, he brought the fight to Goldberg, he absolutely fucking almost killed Goldberg. Quite possibly, the longest match Goldberg ever had on his career and it's possible that Goldberg suffered serious injuries in his match. But, if Goldberg can beat Hogan and Savage, what stops him from beating Flair, right?

I won't vote, yet. But I know for a fact that Ric Flair in his prime isn't going down without a fight and he will bring the best out of Goldberg. If Flair can manage to get this match longer than 30 minutes, then it's his match to win. It all depends on how much Goldberg will be able to last against a ring technician like the Nature Boy.

 

[Rayne]

(Checks the first post in the thread.). Nope, this match doesn't take place in 1997, and the only way I see Goldberg win this is if peak Goldberg got to fight 1997 Flair.

Goldberg had a great run in 1997-98. If we go strictly by 'peak career', Ric Flair loses this match by DQ when he tries to use a cattle prod. However, Goldberg's 'peak career' lasted about a year. Ric Flair's lasted for decades.

However, "but he's just so big" seems to be the leitmotif for this year's tournament, so while you should make the obvious decision and vote Flair, Goldberg probably ends up winning the voting.

 

[nightmare]

Regardless of how great someone was for a short period of time, they really should not beat someone with decades of time at or near the top. Especially when the titles won trump the other. This should be the case with Angle/Austin even tho Austin was a very big deal. Goldberg is by far no Stone Cold, so I really hope nobody gives him the slightest pass for the temporary anomaly that was his WCW run. At least Austin has merit for a vote in his match. Goldberg should have his run ended here.


Flair has the longevity, is one of the best heels ever & holds more gold than Goldberg ever will come close to. Flair is still on shows being a thorn in the side of Charlottes opponents because he is a legend. Goldberg's name is only uttered on shows now to make fun of Ryback. The winner here is clear.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Also I'd like to add something. The score between Savage and Flair is Flair-Savage -> 10-4.

Also I'm pretty sure that Flair would also have beaten Hogan in the same stipulation Goldberg beat him.

Just saying.

Still don't know who I'm voting, but Flair has more chances here than Savage and Hogan did.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

People seem to be forgetting that Goldberg's kryptonite is cheating heels, and nowhere will you find a cheating heel on the level of Ric Flair. I specifically made sure to clarify last round that Savage's prime was as a face; had Savage's prime been as a heel, he would have most likely earned my vote against Goldberg.

A common theme for Goldberg's losses is foul play, and as stated, Ric Flair holds all the cards in terms of foul play.

Add in longevity, influence and prestige, and there's no doubt in my mind: Flair takes down Goldberg in the way he knows best.

 

[Tastycles]

It doesn't matter how long Flair's star burned, it never burned as brightly as Goldberg's. Flair is the wrestling fan's wrestler, and people won't accept this stone cold truth, but the fact of the matter is that every single guy left in this tournament, with the possible exception of Kurt Angle was the main man in the most prominent national promotion at some point in their career. That was never the case for Ric Flair. Ric Flair's NWA was popular among wrestling fans, but in reality was drawing 5,000 to their major shows, which is TNA territory. Goldberg sold out the Georgia dome in 4 days. Goldberg was the principal star in a company drawing 4s and 5s on a weekly basis in the ratings. Ric Flair may well have accrued more over his long career than Goldberg did over his, but on that basis Randy Orton has probably drawn more than Steve Austin - it's irrelevant. Ric Flair may have had a very long and successful career, but he never ever came close to drawing the kinds of numbers that Goldberg did in 1998.

 

[OYDK]

It doesn't matter how long Flair's star burned, it never burned as brightly as Goldberg's. Flair is the wrestling fan's wrestler, and people won't accept this stone cold truth, but the fact of the matter is that every single guy left in this tournament, with the possible exception of Kurt Angle was the main man in the most prominent national promotion at some point in their career. That was never the case for Ric Flair. Ric Flair's NWA was popular among wrestling fans, but in reality was drawing 5,000 to their major shows, which is TNA territory. Goldberg sold out the Georgia dome in 4 days. Goldberg was the principal star in a company drawing 4s and 5s on a weekly basis in the ratings. Ric Flair may well have accrued more over his long career than Goldberg did over his, but on that basis Randy Orton has probably drawn more than Steve Austin - it's irrelevant. Ric Flair may have had a very long and successful career, but he never ever came close to drawing the kinds of numbers that Goldberg did in 1998.

I know international appeal doesn't hold much sway in this tournament, but your last sentence is just not true. I've mentioned it twice before, but Ric Flair was able to draw 200,000 people to a wrestling event in North Korea once upon a time. He was among the top drawing cards during the territory days and nobody but Hulk Hogan matched his drawing power throughout the 80s. Yeah Flair wrestled in front of 5000 people, but that has nothing to do with his ability to draw and everything to do with the NWA not wanting to dish out the cash for a 20,000+ seat arena every week.

Goldberg got hot at a time when wrestling's TV ratings were already up in the 4's and 5's, let's not act like he drew those numbers to Nitro. It's not like the numbers rose when Goldberg won the strap, hell after about 7 months, those ratings were all but gone. Goldberg had a year on top of an international promotion, Ric Flair has been around for over 50 years and was able to consistently draw people to events around the world for over 20 of them.

The only thing Goldberg has going for him here is his booking as an unstoppable force. Anybody who says Goldberg was more popular than Flair or that he was a bigger draw is talking from a 90s perspective. You couldn't find a more beloved or popular wrestling star not named Hulk Hogan in the late 70s and 80s.. I would go as far as saying that Flair actually matched Hogan in popularity, but that's just my personal perspective.

People really seem to put this force field around Goldberg for some reason... maybe it's because his career was so short and he didn't lay down for anyone, but he shouldn't be beating guys like Flair and Savage this late in the tournament.

 

[Rayne]

I know international appeal doesn't hold much sway in this tournament, but your last sentence is just not true. I've mentioned it twice before, but Ric Flair was able to draw 200,000 people to a wrestling event in North Korea once upon a time.

I agree with everything else you wrote, and while this particular sentence is technically true, those people were there under threat of the indefinite detention and torture of them, their families, and their as-of-yet unborn descendants, so I'm not entirely sure this is a point in Ric Flair's favor.

On the other hand, I don't think I'd attend a Bill Goldberg match today under the threat of the indefinite detention and torture of myself, my family, and my as-of-yet unborn descendants, so there's that to consider.

 

[Tastycles]

I know international appeal doesn't hold much sway in this tournament, but your last sentence is just not true. I've mentioned it twice before, but Ric Flair was able to draw 200,000 people to a wrestling event in North Korea once upon a time.

Literally anything western would draw a shit load in North Korea, there is absolutely no way the regime would allow it any other way. Do you honestly think that a the people country as secluded as North Korea, denied access to literally anything are allowed to watch American pro wrestling?

He was among the top drawing cards during the territory days and nobody but Hulk Hogan matched his drawing power throughout the 80s. Yeah Flair wrestled in front of 5000 people, but that has nothing to do with his ability to draw and everything to do with the NWA not wanting to dish out the cash for a 20,000+ seat arena every week.

Do you understand basic economics? The NWA would have made more money if they could book and fill 20000 seater stadiums. They didn't because they couldn't, and if they didn't, then Ric Flair is a moron for not moving to WWF and making more money. Nobody could ever say Bill Goldberg doesn't understand his own value.

Goldberg got hot at a time when wrestling's TV ratings were already up in the 4's and 5's, let's not act like he drew those numbers to Nitro. It's not like the numbers rose when Goldberg won the strap, hell after about 7 months, those ratings were all but gone. Goldberg had a year on top of an international promotion, Ric Flair has been around for over 50 years and was able to consistently draw people to events around the world for over 20 of them.

Goldberg's title win was the first time Nitro had won the ratings for 3 months. They had their only ever ratings above 5 with him as champ. They had been losing, with him as champ and Austin on the other channel in the hottest angle ever, they won about half of the ratings battles. After he dropped the belt, they never won a single other ratings battle.

The only thing Goldberg has going for him here is his booking as an unstoppable force. Anybody who says Goldberg was more popular than Flair or that he was a bigger draw is talking from a 90s perspective. You couldn't find a more beloved or popular wrestling star not named Hulk Hogan in the late 70s and 80s.. I would go as far as saying that Flair actually matched Hogan in popularity, but that's just my personal perspective.

He's the most popular and beloved among wrestling fans, but had almost no ability to draw in new fans. NWA programming was regional fare drawing modest crowds in 1975. NWA programming was regional fare drawing modest crowds in 1990. Meanwhile, shows headlined by the likes Brutus Beefcake literally sold more seats and had more viewers. Flair is the wrestling fans' wrestler.

People really seem to put this force field around Goldberg for some reason... maybe it's because his career was so short and he didn't lay down for anyone, but he shouldn't be beating guys like Flair and Savage this late in the tournament.

This match comes to down to one thing, essentially do you value longevity over heights scaled. Goldberg climbed Everest once. Flair climbed all of the mountains in Europe. For me, it boils down to that, and the latter is more impressive. For you, it's the former. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer here, but I'm with Goldberg.

 

[justtxyank]

Flair is the bigger legend in the business, but Goldberg was the bigger star when he was at his peak. He was mainstream, headlining magazines and getting movie roles. He was a bigger draw for WCW at his peak than Flair was.

Also, Flair confronted Goldberg in WCW and was completely ineffective against him. Goldberg whipped that butt.

As this tournament is supposed to have some kayfabe to it apparently, Goldberg keeps the streak alive and goes over the Nature Boy.

 

[nightmare]

Goldberg may not even make it to the ring if he attacks Flair's limo. Limo windows are his kryptonite.


Truth is that Goldberg has only gone down when his opponent plays dirty. He faces the dirtiest player in the game here. There is no way Flair loses this & for anyone thinking it is a tainted victory so it would not count- you have not paid attention to how Ric does business. The guy made a name off of doing whatever it takes to get the job done. Outside of the match? Flair has done way more in the business. Kayfabe? Flair pulls out all the stops and takes Goldberg down because that is what he does best.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

This is what's going to ultimately decide this for me.

Has Flair ever faced someone like Goldberg and won? Same ring style or same physique? Please enlighten me.

 

[nightmare]

Flair took a bodyslam into the ground thanks to gravity from a airplane crash, broke his back & still came back like a boss. Whatever Goldberg's ring style is does not scare him.

 

[justtxyank]

This is what's going to ultimately decide this for me.

Has Flair ever faced someone like Goldberg and won? Same ring style or same physique? Please enlighten me.

He's faced Goldberg himself. He was competitive once, but he's lost every time. He's gotten licks in and cheap shots, but eventually he has been completely overwhelmed by Goldberg.

He's never been booked to be a real threat to Goldberg historically.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

He's faced Goldberg himself. He was competitive once, but he's lost every time. He's gotten licks in and cheap shots, but eventually he has been completely overwhelmed by Goldberg.

He's never been booked to be a real threat to Goldberg historically.

Didn't that happen on RAW in 2003 when Flair was 20 years past his prime?

 

[justtxyank]

Didn't that happen on RAW in 2003 when Flair was 20 years past his prime?

Happened multiple times in wcw. Even when Flair was wcw champion in 99 he wasn't booked as someone who could hang with Goldberg.

Flair is a better wrestler and has a better legacy, but kayfabe wise he was no threat to Goldberg. When he was booked to beat Vader in 93 that was booked as a massive upset.

 

[enviousdominous]

Happened multiple times in wcw. Even when Flair was wcw champion in 99 he wasn't booked as someone who could hang with Goldberg.

Seriously, 1999? Yeah, if we take that as Flair's greatest year then I wouldn't be arguing on his behalf. We should probably try going back about seventeen years before then.

Flair is a better wrestler and has a better legacy, but kayfabe wise he was no threat to Goldberg. When he was booked to beat Vader in 93 that was booked as a massive upset.

Kayfabe wise, Flair is a huge threat to Goldberg. Of all of Goldberg's opponents, the one most like prime Flair was definitely Triple H. In case you don't remember, Triple H has pinned Goldberg twice.

The way Vader was booked in 1993, anybody beating him was a massive upset. Vader was the Brock Lesnar of his day, and Ric was the guy who proved that he could be beaten.

Just for fun, let's watch the match and decide if Flair has what it takes to endure the worst a monster can throw at him and keep on fighting:

[YOUTUBE]dF0ISj5ioAU[/YOUTUBE]

Also; you get to see young Charlotte at 33:05.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

This is what's going to ultimately decide this for me.

Has Flair ever faced someone like Goldberg and won? Same ring style or same physique? Please enlighten me.

First answer that comes to mind for me is Nikita Koloff.

Koloff basically was WCW's Goldberg of the mid-80's, and is exactly how Goldberg would have been booked if he came up during that time.

High impact offense. Unstoppable monster. Not the most technical, just someone who could annihilate anyone within minutes. Near unbeatable.

The first time they fought was the GAB '85. Koloff kicked the shit out of Flair, made him bleed and even at one point had a fan rush the ring to hold him back. The cops actually came into the ring mid-match to remove the guy. Flair and Koloff kept going... and Flair pinned him clean for the win. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was Koloff's first ever pinfall loss... and the guy was so impressive at that time (Goldberg level impressive) that after that match, Vince McMahon tried signing him by promising him either a feud with Tito Santana where he would end up with the Intercontinental title (that ultimately went to Randy Savage), or a program with Hogan that would have ended up main eventing Wrestlemania 2.

The other post about Flair and Vader is spot on too, because Vader's booking was at Lesner/Goldberg levels when he fought Flair at Starrcade.

The point is... the almost 50 year old man that Goldberg handled easily in real life wouldn't be the guy Goldberg would be facing in this tournament... and THAT guy has not only faced people like him before, but beat them.

Flair has this. There is a reason why back in the 80's, even the casuals who only knew Hogan and the WWF still knew Flair and wanted to see him.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

Ric Flair is the dirtiest player in the game, and a sensible, educated wrestler. He knows what it takes to go the distance.

Goldberg is an intense beast whose power matches his intensity.

HOWEVER Goldberg would have to make sure he beats Flair quickly, as we know he struggles over time. How many decent long matches did Bill have?

So Flair, meticulous in his planning, would simply have to ensure he survives Goldberg's onslaught at the start, which he would likely do, using classic Flair tactics like rolling out of the ring and avoiding Goldberg's pinfall attempts, and utilising the 'foot on the bottom rope' break up.

Plus if there is one weakness an ex-football player is likely to have, it's his legs. And what is Flair's MO? Attack the legs, weaken them for the figure four.

I have no doubt that Flair would frustrate Goldberg before creating an opening where Goldberg's leg gets taken out from under him, thus opening the door for Flair to work the leg. If I were booking this match, I would book it so that this carries on until a brief Goldberg comeback, but when he lifts Flair for the Jackhammer, his leg gives out in the middle of the ring, and Flair capitalises by slapping on the figure four, with the match ending in a similar fashion to Flair v Savage for the WWE title in 1992, with Goldberg being pinned in the move after passing out.

Flair wins a straight one on one here

 

[tdmoon]

I've seen some results in this tourney that raised an eyebrow, but this match being this close is mind-blowing.

I understand that Ric Flair can be a bit polarizing to wrestling fans. Some people can't stand him, others think he's the cats meow. Love him or hate him, an objective look at this shows Flair should win this and win this quite easily.

Other than size and strength, I can't find anywhere where Goldberg has an advantage over Flair. Comparing their in-ring skills is laughable; Flair is recognized by many as one of the premier technicians of his generation. How many times have you heard the quote about Flair being able to have a great match with a broom? Goldberg struggled to have great matches with actual living, breathing, talented opponents. Flair has had more great matches than Goldberg has had matches.

Ric Flair has been in the middle of some of the biggest matches we've seen, some of the best remembered feuds and was the centerpiece of the most important faction in wrestling history. He was among the most charismatic wrestlers of his generation, gold in front of the mic and spent the vast majority of a lengthy career as the number one guy wherever he worked. Twenty years from now, when a wrestler chops another, fans are going to be "whoo"ing. Do any of you think Goldberg really will be remembered then? Most often when he even gets brought up now is when Ryback is in the ring. Flair's continuing legacy is being known for championship gold, Goldberg's is about a comparison to a midcard talent.

I realize this sounds like I'm hating on Goldberg but I'm not. I liked him and even think he's been sold a bit short by fans looking back at his career. I see him as somebody WCW could have done much more with and he was very important to the company in the too-brief time he spent at the top. But to compare him with somebody who many in the business claim is among the very best of all-time? No way. Flair makes a case for being on the Mt. Rushmore of wrestling history, Goldberg is on the Mt. Rushmore of WCW for about three years.

Bill Goldberg had an amazing run where he burned white-hot but it was too brief. His win over an aging Hogan for the belt in Atlanta was a great moment, the pinnacle of his career and an important moment in wrestling history. I'm not sure it's more impressive than Flair beating Harley Race in a cage in the main event of the first Starrcade, a supercard built up to promote Flair as the top dog in the NWA. It was even titled, "A Flair For The Gold" and was the culmination of an epic feud involving bounties, injuries, baseball bats and kayfabe career-threatening injuries. The reaction from the fans and other wrestlers when Flair won the gold was a great moment. Goldberg's was too, and I will certainly concede it rivaled Flair's. Difference is, that was pretty much it for Goldberg while Flair continued to have historic matches for decades afterwards.

I've seen some say Goldberg wins this because he has beaten Flair. That's a ridiculous argument, anybody who thinks that was in Flair's prime knows nothing about Ric Flair or wrestling prior to 1990. I also saw somebody say that though Flair is the wrestling fans wrestler, Goldberg wins because ratings. That's another poor argument which discounts the differences in technology and the business of wrestling. It's like saying Adrian Gonzalez is a better baseball player than Willie Mays because he's been in more Sportscenter highlights. Besides, why is the opinion of casual fans-many of whom don't even follow wrestling anymore-more important than fans who are actually knowledgeable about the product? Though there weren't as many eyeballs on the TV screen when Flair was doing his thing than when wrestling was a ratings bonanza on cable during Goldbergs peak, Flair was doing his thing in front of people, in different cities, almost every night of the week for decades. If impact on television is an important factor, how about the fact that Ric Flair was chosen to be the number one guy for a promotion that helped bring rise to cable television? When the medium was in its early years, wrestling was one of the most important programs and Flair was chosen to be the man who carried it.

It's been pointed out that Goldberg's weakness was opponents who were cunning and devious. Very few wrestlers ever were moreso than Flair. The Nature Boy knew how to win and wasn't above doing whatever it takes to get that win. Goldberg could absolutely deal out some brutal offense but Flair could take punishment as well as anybody. His conditioning is legendary and he would outlast Goldberg and pick him apart for the win.

Strength is Goldbergs advantage here. Accomplishments, legacy, skill, conditioning, ring intelligence all favor Flair. Do the right thing, vote Flair.

 

[NSL]

I'm not going to take the time to catch up on the other posts here, so I'll just post my reasons for voting and move on. In a fair one on one match, with zero background going into it, Flair wins this so many times it's laughable. But, he's coming off two matches where he would have just about been bled dry, and now he has to face an absolute machine. I think this would be a great match, but I don't see how Flair makes it to the ring, much less gives Goldberg much struggle.