Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) Steve Austin vs. (2) Kurt Angle

[klunderbunker]

This is a fifth round match in the Championship Region and it is a standard one on one match. It will be held at AT&T Stadium in Dallas, Texas. Assume one week has passed since the previous round, meaning all damage might not be healed. Starting with this round, damage will directly carry over to the next round based on the margin of victory. In other words, the more votes someone has against them, the more damage they have sustained.

#1. Steve Austin

VS.

#2. Kurt Angle​

Polls will be open for six days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[enviousdominous]

You know what, someone call the loony bin now and get me one of those coats that lets me hug myself. I'm going with Kurt Angle in this one.

Here's why I consider myself insane for thinking as much; Austin was a top guy. He exploded onto the scene and everything felt right (for most people). If you start at when he won his first world championship, he held firm at the top for over three years. There were creative bumps in the road, but he always put butts in seats. The man was a ratings machine who can claim a lot of responsibility for making the WWF more popular than WCW. There's also the fact that Austin has beaten Angle in 15 of 23 one on one matches.

Here's why I'm still going with Kurt Angle; Kurt Angle's accolades go way beyond his accomplishments in the world of prowrestling. He didn't have to prove that he was worthy of world championship contention, a red carpet was rolled out for him and he was one of those rare talents that could just take the brass ring by being his own name and his own style. While the Austin character was a worthy apex for any performer, Kurt Angle has been very different versions of himself over the years. Kurt never peaked and remained stagnant, he preached his three Is one year and was knocking off Brock Lesnar by switching places with his brother the next. I think that Kurt's versatility and tenacity will give him the edge against someone like Austin who as a rule doesn't consider his opponents to be anywhere near his own level.

If we want to talk tournament specific statistics:

Steve Austin took on Triple H in a three stages of hell match and won by 9 votes and a 55% margin of victory. While beating Triple H under any circumstance is a triumph, I'm willing to believe that Triple H took the first fall by using his sledge hammer. I know right, there goes my imagination again. Just saying, Steve Austin came a little too close for comfort to losing that one to Triple H.

Kurt Angle took on Edge in a Hell in a Cell and won by 17 votes. While Edge would likely have fallen to Triple H had the seeding put them against each other, we're left with a more fresh Kurt Angle taking on a more damaged Steve Austin. Both men have soldiered through neck injuries, and both men have come out of matches against monsters looking dominant. Austin has had The Undertaker in positions where the Deadman looked weak compared to him, and there was a time when Angle was the only person who could beat Brock Lesnar convincingly.

I expect it to go to Austin based on the fact that his status as a pro-wrestler has never been rivaled by Kurt Angle, though I'm voting for Angle because he's proven that he could take a high impact wrestling style decades longer than most would have been able to.

Vote Kurt Angle.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

First, let's take a look at the history between Angle and Austin in singles competition:
1) WWF Undisputed World Heavyweight Title #1 Contendership Tournament Final: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (10:27) WWF RAW #453

2) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin(c) defeats Kurt Angle (14:55)
WWF Vengeance 2001

3) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) (17:21) TITLE CHANGE !! WWF RAW #437

4) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Kurt Angle defeats Steve Austin (c) (23:54) - TITLE CHANGE !!! WWF Unforgiven 2001

5) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Kurt Angle defeats Steve Austin (c) by DQ (23:11) WWF SummerSlam 2001

6) No Disqualification: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (10:50)
WWF SmackDown #83

7) Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle by DQ (9:19)
WWF SmackDown #81

8) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) by DQ (12:14) WWF RAW is WAR #398

9) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) by DQ (9:17) WWF RAW is WAR #392 @ Hilton Coliseum in Ames, Iowa, USA

In their 9 encounters, Austin has won 7, Angle has won 2, so Austin wins this 7-2.

Austin is the bigger star period.

Statistics never lie. Vote Austin, easily.

 

[JGlass]

This is the most gimme match of the championship round, I think. While one could argue that these men never met when each were at their prime, that's mostly because Stone Cold was so dominant that there was no room for Kurt Angle to succeed the way he did when Stone Cold (and to a significant extant, The Rock too) retired. When they did meet, Stone Cold routinely whooped Angle's ass.

Love Kurt Angle as I do, Stone Cold is just the obvious choice this time.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Me defending Angle.​

Sure. It's easy to ask "Who's More Popular?" and your knee jerk reaction is to vote Austin. But that's a very boring way to approach these tournaments.

1. Angle beat Austin where it counted most, Championship Matches. Summerslam 2001 it was Angle. Unforgiven 2001 it was Angle and he made Austin tap out. Yes, the guy that became an icon for being the toughest son of a bitch on the planet tapped out to a guy that was barely three years on the roster. Angle did something Bret Hart couldn't. Sure, you can argue that Austin had Angle beat when you include non-title television matches. But Pay Per Views matter a lot more in this universe, and this is the Championship Region. On 1-on-1 encounters for the title on the line, it was 2-1 in favor of Angle. Angle was the better champion when they fought.


2. Austin was a lousy heel. Angle was an exceptional heel and face. Be honest with yourself. The Attitude Era ruined fan reactions. We still feel the effects today when the audience cheers for whatever seems more interesting and boos the rest. The Attitude Era, at least in the hands of Vince Russo, changed the landscape for faces and heels forever. The audience became desensitized with all the turns that they gave up and decided to cheer for the more profane wrestler, which is Austin no argument there. The Invasion angle felt the effects of all of those swerves when it was Austin's time to join sides with McMahon.

A heel's job is to get booed. To get the loudest negative reaction. During The Invasion angle, the audience didn't care about the Austin heel turn. They've seen enough of the merry-go-round. When Angle was a face, he was an American hero that was backed by the ever-popular face chant "U-S-A!" "U-S-A!" "U-S-A!". When he was a heel, fans would sing "You Suck!" in tune to his theme music. Austin as a face was undeniably over. As an attention-seeking heel? Complete shit. Kurt Angle played both very well, which is what a wrestler should be able to.

And that's not even counting how clean-cut Angle was during the time of excessive cussing and genital pointing. In the era of alcohol and misogyny, Angle could be watched by the whole family. Can't say the same for Austin.


3. In their feud, Kurt Angle was treated as the badass, not Austin. Case in point:

[YOUTUBE]gCk69v7KALw[/YOUTUBE]​

Yes. That was Angle kidnapping Austin. Yes, Austin was crying. Like a bitch. And Kurt mocked him throughout. In any other match, I don't think it can be argued that the redneck has bigger balls than his competition. But this is Kurt and Kurt had the bigger pair.


4. Damage carries over, and it isn't in Austin's favor.. Austin beat HHH with 57% of the tallied votes in this tournament. Angle beat Edge 62% (both rounded off). So Angle is a little bit fresher coming into the bout than Austin. I'm sure someone will argue that this clearly makes Austin the winner because hur hur kayfabe badass overcome the odds Shawn Michaels vs. Brock Lesnar. But this is a fairly stupid way to reason. If you looked at the damage guidelines in voting objectively, Angle would no doubt have your vote here.


5. Angle was squeaky clean in the days of Trash TV. Austin showering The Corporation with beer was awesome. Angle showering Austin and The Alliance with milk? Hilarious. You think it's hard to come up with something original in WWE and it go over? Try coming up with a parody that's even moreso.

Austin said something cool at King of The Ring and it caught on. Saying something controversial was all the rage in the 90s when Jerry Springer was must-see television. WWE did well to capitalize on it. Austin was trendy in the days before we all learned to stop making fun of gay people and start treating women with respect. He would be completely lost and panned if he entered a WWE ring right now as a new guy. Scratch that, he wouldn't even be allowed to do any of the shit that got him over in the first place. Kurt Angle transcends whatever TV Rating WWE decided to stick with, be it TV-MA, TV-14, or TV-PG.

Austin has more memorable moments than Angle. I don't think anyone can argue that. But look at the years. It was in the days when a porn star getting his dick chopped off with a katana was appropriate viewing. I'd show a .gif of it, but that would get me banned. That should tell you right away it was no small wonder Austin had better moments.

No small wonder at all.​

Steve Austin also wastes beer and beats his wives.

Vote Angle.

 

[nightmare]

Austin was the man. For a period of time. In one company. Kurt Angle has won the top prize in every place he wrestled. NCAA, WWE, NJPW, TNA & the goddamn Olympics. More success at the top, faster path to get there, bigger stage reached.


Spider already showed Angle taking Stone Cold down when it counted in the bigger matches. That submission victory is a feat, given how tough his character was booked. A betting man would put his money on a guy just like Angle. He has more than enough to take Steve down here. Take off your Attitude Era beer goggles & vote the right man through.

 

[JGlass]

Spoiler

Me defending Angle.​

Sure. It's easy to ask "Who's More Popular?" and your knee jerk reaction is to vote Austin. But that's a very boring way to approach these tournaments.

1. Angle beat Austin where it counted most, Championship Matches. Summerslam 2001 it was Angle. Unforgiven 2001 it was Angle and he made Austin tap out. Yes, the guy that became an icon for being the toughest son of a bitch on the planet tapped out to a guy that was barely three years on the roster. Angle did something Bret Hart couldn't. Sure, you can argue that Austin had Angle beat when you include non-title television matches. But Pay Per Views matter a lot more in this universe, and this is the Championship Region. On 1-on-1 encounters for the title on the line, it was 2-1 in favor of Angle. Angle was the better champion when they fought.


2. Austin was a lousy heel. Angle was an exceptional heel and face. Be honest with yourself. The Attitude Era ruined fan reactions. We still feel the effects today when the audience cheers for whatever seems more interesting and boos the rest. The Attitude Era, at least in the hands of Vince Russo, changed the landscape for faces and heels forever. The audience became desensitized with all the turns that they gave up and decided to cheer for the more profane wrestler, which is Austin no argument there. The Invasion angle felt the effects of all of those swerves when it was Austin's time to join sides with McMahon.

A heel's job is to get booed. To get the loudest negative reaction. During The Invasion angle, the audience didn't care about the Austin heel turn. They've seen enough of the merry-go-round. When Angle was a face, he was an American hero that was backed by the ever-popular face chant "U-S-A!" "U-S-A!" "U-S-A!". When he was a heel, fans would sing "You Suck!" in tune to his theme music. Austin as a face was undeniably over. As an attention-seeking heel? Complete shit. Kurt Angle played both very well, which is what a wrestler should be able to.

And that's not even counting how clean-cut Angle was during the time of excessive cussing and genital pointing. In the era of alcohol and misogyny, Angle could be watched by the whole family. Can't say the same for Austin.


3. In their feud, Kurt Angle was treated as the badass, not Austin. Case in point:

[YOUTUBE]gCk69v7KALw[/YOUTUBE]​

Yes. That was Angle kidnapping Austin. Yes, Austin was crying. Like a bitch. And Kurt mocked him throughout. In any other match, I don't think it can be argued that the redneck has bigger balls than his competition. But this is Kurt and Kurt had the bigger pair.


4. Damage carries over, and it isn't in Austin's favor.. Austin beat HHH with 57% of the tallied votes in this tournament. Angle beat Edge 62% (both rounded off). So Angle is a little bit fresher coming into the bout than Austin. I'm sure someone will argue that this clearly makes Austin the winner because hur hur kayfabe badass overcome the odds Shawn Michaels vs. Brock Lesnar. But this is a fairly stupid way to reason. If you looked at the damage guidelines in voting objectively, Angle would no doubt have your vote here.


5. Angle was squeaky clean in the days of Trash TV. Austin showering The Corporation with beer was awesome. Angle showering Austin and The Alliance with milk? Hilarious. You think it's hard to come up with something original in WWE and it go over? Try coming up with a parody that's even moreso.

Austin said something cool at King of The Ring and it caught on. Saying something controversial was all the rage in the 90s when Jerry Springer was must-see television. WWE did well to capitalize on it. Austin was trendy in the days before we all learned to stop making fun of gay people and start treating women with respect. He would be completely lost and panned if he entered a WWE ring right now as a new guy. Scratch that, he wouldn't even be allowed to do any of the shit that got him over in the first place. Kurt Angle transcends whatever TV Rating WWE decided to stick with, be it TV-MA, TV-14, or TV-PG.

Austin has more memorable moments than Angle. I don't think anyone can argue that. But look at the years. It was in the days when a porn star getting his dick chopped off with a katana was appropriate viewing. I'd show a .gif of it, but that would get me banned. That should tell you right away it was no small wonder Austin had better moments.

No small wonder at all.​

Steve Austin also wastes beer and beats his wives.

Vote Angle.

I really like this post and think you make some good arguments, but I'm going to piss you off and boil your post down to a few points.

1) How can you say Angle was squeaky clean in the era of trash TV in the same post that you show him kidnapping Austin? Is kidnapping cool?

2) It doesn't matter if Austin had "better moments" because of the time period: everyone was playing by the same rules at the time. I say that in comparison to Slyfox's argument in regards to CM Punk being overrated on the mic because he was allowed to play by different rules than the other wrestlers, especially in regards to his "Pipebomb" promo. Stone Cold wasn't the only one doing outrageous things at the time. Sure, he was doing some of the most outrageous things, but that's only because he was so popular.

Basically, Stone Cold wasn't popular because he was outrageous. He was outrageous because he was popular. If it wasn't him filling up Vince's car with cement or beating up Booker T in a grocery store, it would have been someone else. Maybe The Rock would have filled Vince's car with rocks and beaten up Booker T in a quarry (rock jokes, lulz).

3) You say Austin is a lousy heel, but I'm not convinced that he was, nor am I convinced that this matters. You only cite Austin's inability to draw heel heat in the Invasion angle as his shortcoming as a heel, but in reality that hardly shows he's a poor heel. The Invasion angle was shit and nothing went the way it should have.

Furthermore, why should it matter if he's not a good heel? When you get to this point in the tournament it largely becomes about legacy, and Stone Cold's legacy is not as a heel; it's as a badass face.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

1. Angle beat Austin where it counted most, Championship Matches. Summerslam 2001 it was Angle. Unforgiven 2001 it was Angle and he made Austin tap out. Yes, the guy that became an icon for being the toughest son of a bitch on the planet tapped out to a guy that was barely three years on the roster. Angle did something Bret Hart couldn't. Sure, you can argue that Austin had Angle beat when you include non-title television matches. But Pay Per Views matter a lot more in this universe, and this is the Championship Region. On 1-on-1 encounters for the title on the line, it was 2-1 in favor of Angle. Angle was the better champion when they fought.

Too bad that at the same year Angle made Austin tap, Austin then went on to kick his ass on RAW two weeks later for the title and then beat him again at Vengeance in a championship match.

Plus, I could argue that their match at Vengeance was much more important than both their encounters at Summerslam and Unforgiven, since at the Vengeance, the WWF "Undisputed" World Heavyweight Championship, was about to be created, consisting of the two most prestigious World titles in the wrestling biz.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

See here's the fucking flaw in logic.

We tried to put H over Austin saying that he did beat him in a 3 stages of hell match. That got some momentum because thats the only chane someone like H would stand against Austin.

Angle has made Austin tap and thats a big thing. And I know why Austin should win this but, this all just so predictable now.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Too bad that at the same year Angle made Austin tap, Austin then went on to kick his ass on RAW two weeks later for the title and then beat him again at Vengeance in a championship match.

If by "kick his ass" you mean "Regal interfered on Austin's behalf and hit Angle with the belt", then yeah. Stone Cold sure did kick his ass.

Austin needed help beating Angle that night. On free television.

Did Angle have any help making the man who wouldn't tap out to Hart's Sharpshooter tap out to his Ankle Lock? You're very much underselling how big a deal Austin submitting is.

Plus, I could argue that their match at Vengeance was much more important than both their encounters at Summerslam and Unforgiven, since at the Vengeance, the WWF "Undisputed" World Heavyweight Championship, was about to be created, consisting of the two most prestigious World titles in the wrestling biz.

Austin being a placeholder for Jericho isn't what I'd call more important, especially if you watched that event. The WWE even had a hard time making that seem like a big deal after it happened, mainly because the ending wasn't even a good finish to a free televised match. And for it to be so important, Vengeance didn't keep its own name six years later.

I'd definitely argue seeing Austin tap out is a very stunning visual. Much more than seeing him or Kurt get pinned.


Vote Angle. Austin might walk out on you.

 

[JJYanks121]

I'm going to quote someone with a much more advanced degree than I have for this one. When you get into the later rounds, you must look to those with high intelligence, and who is smarter than a doctor? So here's what a friend of mine who has a doctorate in thuganomics once said (not about either of these men):

"Listen, I'm going to level with you homey
It's not that you're not on my level
You're not on the level below me."

-Jonathan Cena
phD Thuganomics

I know these two men have met a few times and the obvious advantage there is with Austin as he has far more victories over Angle, but let's also consider that when Angle did beat Austin, he did so once by DQand once as a chickenshit heel right after 9/11 to give the fans a moment. This wasn't a passing of the torch, it was lip service to give the fans something to cheer for until he got the title back 2 weeks later.

See, I use the quote because it's accurate. Austin is on an entirely different level as a pro wrestler than Kurt Angle ever was or will be. Very few ascend to Austin's level and Kurt Angle certainly isn't one of them. This shouldn't be close. Austin wins.

 

[Tastycles]

I'd love to vote Angle, but I can't see any reason to, and nobody has convinced me. The fact of the matter is Austin was a lot more successful, a lot more popular and clearly and generally made out to be a bigger deal than Angle.

 

[ChickenWaffles]

First, let's take a look at the history between Angle and Austin in singles competition:
1) WWF Undisputed World Heavyweight Title #1 Contendership Tournament Final: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (10:27) WWF RAW #453

2) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin(c) defeats Kurt Angle (14:55)
WWF Vengeance 2001

3) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) (17:21) TITLE CHANGE !! WWF RAW #437

4) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Kurt Angle defeats Steve Austin (c) (23:54) - TITLE CHANGE !!! WWF Unforgiven 2001

5) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Kurt Angle defeats Steve Austin (c) by DQ (23:11) WWF SummerSlam 2001

6) No Disqualification: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (10:50)
WWF SmackDown #83

7) Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle by DQ (9:19)
WWF SmackDown #81

8) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) by DQ (12:14) WWF RAW is WAR #398

9) WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats Kurt Angle (c) by DQ (9:17) WWF RAW is WAR #392 @ Hilton Coliseum in Ames, Iowa, USA

In their 9 encounters, Austin has won 7, Angle has won 2, so Austin wins this 7-2.

Austin is the bigger star period.

Statistics never lie. Vote Austin, easily.

I don't care about this tournament but is this really what passes for logic here?

3 of Austin's wins listed above are DQ wins. I don't know what imaginary rules are in play here but winning by DQ isn't winning in any real sense of the word, and importantly doesn't show you're better than your competitor.

In fact I'm going to argue for Angle here. Austin was scratching about as a nobody for an eternity before stumbling across massive success. Angle is one of the best rookies ever in the business and also won an Olympic gold medal, and would beat Austin in a real fight. And beat Austin alongside other all time greats (Rock, HHH, Undertaker - and Rikishi) in a Hell in a Cell match.

 

[nightmare]

Big success for a time is a great thing to have. Big success in multiple wrestling organizations is a better thing to have. Angle accomplished just that. Austin may have been a big deal for WWE during a needed power shift, but that surely cannot overshadow being at the top where Angle has tread. For a long time Austin was nothing more than a good mechanic who had a nice tag team run. His singles stuff was largely crap until years later when he convinced McMahon to alter his gimmick. Angle won NCAA gold & an Olympic medal in wrestling before becoming one of the hottest pro rookies ever. Then he became the hottest free agent in a long time when he went to TNA. Plus he got a NJPW title out of it all & not many Americans can say they ever got that honor. Nobody was knocking down Austins door like that ever. Certainly not like people were over Kurt.

Austin is one of my favorites, but if not for catching lightning in a bottle through luck, he would have been nothing more than mediocre. Angle was always pretty damn good & when he got to pro wrestling, he excelled in yet another aspect of his chosen sport. Seems like one is a greater wrestler than the other, which is what this tournament sets to find out.

 

[Bernkastel]

Kurt Angle defeated Stone Cold for the world title at Unforgiven 2001 only to lose the title back to Austin 2 weeks later. He was a speed bump for Austin. Definitely not some huge mountain. I really don't understand why Kurt made it this far. Is it because his supporters hope he's going to piggyback off that kayfabe win to garner votes? If that is the case shouldn't Austin have this one in the bag considering he whooped Angle far more often then Angle could? And then you factor in that Austin literally had everything over Angle except longevity, which doesn't really matter because Angle spent those years toiling in a much smaller promotion, and I think it's an easy win for the Rattlesnake.

 

[nightmare]

If by everything you mean a beer can wall & black tshirts, then yes. But Angle has all those shiny titles & medals at his house to ease his mind for not getting to kick Vince in the dick 300 times.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

I don't care about this tournament but is this really what passes for logic here?

3 of Austin's wins listed above are DQ wins. I don't know what imaginary rules are in play here but winning by DQ isn't winning in any real sense of the word, and importantly doesn't show you're better than your competitor.

In fact I'm going to argue for Angle here. Austin was scratching about as a nobody for an eternity before stumbling across massive success. Angle is one of the best rookies ever in the business and also won an Olympic gold medal, and would beat Austin in a real fight. And beat Austin alongside other all time greats (Rock, HHH, Undertaker - and Rikishi) in a Hell in a Cell match.

Take out the DQs, still 4-2 for Austin.

And what? Just because Angle had a better rookie career means he's better than Austin?
Actually I'm gonna use that against you and go on to say that even if Angle had a better rookie career, Angle never really had any progress. He always stayed in the same spot, the upper midcard spot, sometimes #2 behind the top guy. Even when Austin left, Angle still got his ass whooped by the next generation, people like Lesnar and Cena.

And who cares what would happen in a real fight?

 

[NSL]

It really hurts voting against Angle here, and I wish I could find some sort of straw man reason to do it, but I can't. Austin wins this in so many ways, whether it's accomplishments, impact on the business...Angle was always better in the ring, but Austin was no slouch, pre-neck injury.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Did Angle have any help making the man who wouldn't tap out to Hart's Sharpshooter tap out to his Ankle Lock? You're very much underselling how big a deal Austin submitting is.

Austin tapping at that time wasn't such a big deal, since he had tap some months earlier to Benoit (or Jericho), can't remember.

Plus, Angle had the entire 9/11 help him. I don't think WWE had any intetion of making Angle the champ back then, but I wouldn't go on that, because I want to view things under a kayfabe standpoint.

Yes, Austin tapping was a big deal, but, who hasn't tap out to the Ankle Lock? Austin, Hogan, Cena, HBK all have tapped out to Kurt Angle. Does that mean that Angle's better than them? We may as well hand this tournament to Angle from now.

Austin was A+ player in his prime. Kurt was B+. Triple H managed to crawl out of Austin's and Rock's shadow and became the #1 guy from 2002-2005. Kurt Angle mainwhile, was too busy losing to Brock Lesnar and Eddie Guerrero and then became even more busier when Rey Mysterio and John Cena walked in his path and beat his ass. Angle never was an A-class player, and for that reason alone, I can't vote him over the #2 wrestler of ALL TIME.