Championship Match: (3) Shawn Michaels vs. (11) Brock Lesnar

[Tastycles]

I'm going to assume you're kidding about Benoit/Angle and move on, as that's about as absurd as you can get.

I'll give you a universe: the one you're in. The real world. It's how wrestling works, like that time last year when Daniel Bryan overcame Evolution in one night for example. People liked that as I recall.

Daniel Bryan has been booked as a plucky underdog that wins his whole career. Heel authority stables always lose to underdog faces in the end.

The point Miko is making - that Lesnar doesn't do plucky underdog, Michaels usually loses when he's the underdog - is the sound you can hear sailing over your head.

 

[klunderbunker]

Daniel Bryan has been booked as a plucky underdog that wins his whole career. Heel authority stables always lose to underdog faces in the end.

And so do monster faces, usually to smaller wrestlers who they underestimate.

The point Miko is making - that Lesnar doesn't do plucky underdog, Michaels usually loses when he's the underdog - is the sound you can hear sailing over your head.

.....Michaels loses as the underdog? Are you kidding me?

 

[Tastycles]

And so do monster faces, usually to smaller wrestlers who they underestimate.



.....Michaels loses as the underdog? Are you kidding me?

Yes. Diesel, Undertaker, Cena etc. etc.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yes. Diesel, Undertaker, Cena etc. etc.

I'm thinking of In Your House VII, inside the Cell, the casket match and Raw on April 23, 2007 where Shawn beat all three of them. And yes I'm well aware of what you meant.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If you people had any respect for this tournament or any respect for these forums, HBK would not be winning the vote in this match right now.

First off, according to the rules of this tournament, Lesnar is far fresher than Michaels as he ran through Austin and Cena with relative ease. Secondly, whether you're one of those that votes kayfabe or by criteria, there is no reason to vote for Michaels. Lesnar would beat Michaels in kayfabe and Lesnar is a better draw and more credible champion than ole HBK. Instead of making bullshit arguments in Michaels' defense just flat out say, "I like HBK more so I'm gonna vote for him". At least I could respect that.

Don't be hypocritical guys and do what you know is the right thing to do and vote Lesnar.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm thinking of In Your House VII, inside the Cell, the casket match and Raw on April 23, 2007 where Shawn beat all three of them. And yes I'm well aware of what you meant.

So, less important matches? Kane isn't going to get involved here, and the other two glorious defeats you've brought up, crucially, came in Michaels' second match with them which absolutely scuttles your previous argument about Michaels winning "for now".

 

[klunderbunker]

So, less important matches? Kane isn't going to get involved here, and the other two glorious defeats you've brought up, crucially, came in Michaels' second match with them which absolutely scuttles your previous argument about Michaels winning "for now".

Well to begin with, Undertaker didn't beat Michaels in the Attitude Era, so it wasn't a defeat for him. I'd also say that Shawn losing at WM XI is a completely different version than the one that beat Diesel a year later. As for Cena, indeed it was a less important match, but pinning the World Champion clean in a marathon, like this match has become, is hardly beating Freddy Joe Floyd on Superstars. As for Kane interfering, Shawn didn't cheat to win there and he won't need to cheat to win here. I'd also put 1997 Undertaker higher up on the destruction scale than modern Lesnar but that's just me.

 

[Tastycles]

Well to begin with, Undertaker didn't beat Michaels in the Attitude Era, so it wasn't a defeat for him. I'd also say that Shawn losing at WM XI is a completely different version than the one that beat Diesel a year later. As for Cena, indeed it was a less important match, but pinning the World Champion clean in a marathon, like this match has become, is hardly beating Freddy Joe Floyd on Superstars. As for Kane interfering, Shawn didn't cheat to win there and he won't need to cheat to win here. I'd also put 1997 Undertaker higher up on the destruction scale than modern Lesnar but that's just me.

He didn't cheat, but he wouldn't have won without Kane. Who completely isn't a factor in this match - Paul Heyman never shagged Lesnar's mum and there's no mystery brother to save Michaels.

 

[klunderbunker]

He didn't cheat, but he wouldn't have won without Kane. Who completely isn't a factor in this match - Paul Heyman never shagged Lesnar's mum and there's no mystery brother to save Michaels.

I'm not so sure about that. Everyone was sure Undertaker was going to win after the beating he gave Shawn at Ground Zero and the Rumble but Shawn hung in there and won, like he always does.

Including in this match, against Lesnar.

 

[enviousdominous]

My vote is Lesnar, but based on what we all know is going to happen; here is how I see a match like this being booked based on WrestleZone rules.

Shawn Michaels vs Brock Lesnar. There will be interference, because fuck it.

Brock and Shawn trade spots back and forth until Brock hits Shawn with a clothesline and nods his head looking at the crowd. The crowd wants Suplex City and Brock shouts something indicating his intentions. Brock attempts the first suplex, and shawn counters by keeping his leg locked around Brock's. Brock headbutts Shawn a few times and pulls off a german suplex, from which Shawn does a backflip and lands on his feet. The two trade spots for a while longer until they both spill out of the ring from a wild clothesline taking both men over the top rope. Heyman gets in Shawn's face, Shawn confronts Heyman. Brock rushes at Shawn, and Shawn scoots away just in time to see Brock clobber Heyman by mistake. Shawn hits a superkick out of nowhere and painstakingly pushes Brock into the ring, for a nearfall. Shawn throws a fit and scurries up the turnbuckle in preparation for an elbow drop, but Brock snaps up and does a belly to belly suplex on Shawn off the top rope. Brock takes Shawn to suplex city at this point, delivering a series of different suplexes. Brock puts one foot on shawn and the ref begins the count 1-2... Heyman grabs the ref's ankle.

Brock gets that look in his eyes and rushes out of the ring to confront Heyman. The ref gets between them and ejects Heyman. While Heyman is leaving, Brock clotheslines him from behind, Shawn spends the entire time recovering and is just making it to his feet when Brock gets back into the ring. Shawn looks fatigued, but raises his fists and eggs on Brock. Brock laughs and points to his own chin taunting Shawn into taking his best shot. Shawn rears back a fist, and stomps on Brock's foot leaving Brock open to a quick thumb to the eye. Brock turns his back to Shawn in an attempt to shield his eye from more damage, allowing Shawn to apply a sleeper hold. Brock flails and backs Shawn into the corner hard, Shawn doesn't let go. Brock carries Shawn to the center of the ring and falls to one knee. Brock gets a hold of Shawn's neck and pulls Shawn over his shoulder into position for a Tombstone Piledriver. Shawn flails his legs and Brock falls backward allowing Shawn to hold Brock in position for the Tombstone. Shawn drops Brock on his head and puts Brock's hands on his chest as an homage to Taker. 1,2... Brock kicks out.

Shawn puts Brock into the corner and starts raining blows onto Brock's head, Brock covers up and takes the hits. Shawn hoists Brock onto the top rope and signals that a superplex is coming. Lesnar holds on and headbutts Shawn, causing Shawn to fall off the ropes and land on his back. Lesnar stands on the top rope nodding his head as though a shooting star press is coming, when Heyman shows up to pull Brock's ankle causing him to smash his own taint into the top rope. Shawn shakes the clouds away and climbs the top rope to deliver a thunderous superplex to Lesnar. Shawn kips up getting the crowd on his side.

Shawn stomps in the corner signaling Sweet Chin Music. When his ankle is grabbed by Heyman. Shawn screams "Whose side are you on!?" at Heyman, to which Heyman exclaims that he wants to see them both get destroyed. Lesnar hoists Michaels into position for the F-5, and executes the move flawlessly. The ref is busy outside attempting to remove Heyman from ringside, Heyman decks the ref with a loaded fist and whips off his coat to reveal a referee's shirt.

Heyman rushes into the ring as Brock stares in disbelief at his current circumstance. Shawn recovers, Brock grabs him from behind and attempts a German suplex. Shawn blocks the move and elbows Lesnar, Shawn swings behind Lesnar and delivers a quick German suplex without letting go of Lesnar's waist. Shawn delivers two move German suplexes as an homage to <omitted by TitanSports inc.>. Brock slowly makes his way to his feet while Shawn eggs him on.

Shawn kicks Lesnar in the stomach and gives him a Stone Cold Stunner. Shawn attempts a pin, Heyman counts a slow 1,2.... and Brock kicks out.

Shawn hoists Brock onto his shoulders and gives the "You can't see me" signal attempting an AA. Brock lands on his feet and lifts Shawn onto his shoulders for another F-5. Shawn reverses the move into a DDT.

Shawn shakes his shoulders in the manner of Eddie Guerrero and delivers a Frog Splash to Brock Lesnar. Shawn attempts the pin, while Heyman just leans against the corner while staring at him laughing hysterically. Shawn screams at Heyman in the corner, while Brock recovers. Brock clumsily rushes at Shawn, and Shawn moves out of the way causing Lesnar to crash into Heyman for a second time knocking him out.

Shawn lifts a confused Lesnar onto his shoulders and delivers an AA. Shawn then puts Lesnar into the STF causing Brock to tap repeatedly while no referee acknowledges the occurrence. Shawn releases the hold and stands up staring at an obviously gassed Lesnar as he lays helpless on the mat. Shawn walks up to Brock and suddenly Brock snaps up grabbing Shawn's arm and holding his arm in a key lock.

The original ref crawls into the ring and observes the hold. Shawn screams in pain but refuses to tap, eventually reaching the bottom rope giving Brock only four more seconds to twist Shawn's arm. Shawn writhes in pain and Brock delivers another F-5. Brock shows obvious fatigue and lays on Shawn for the pin without hooking the leg. The ref counts 1,2... Shawn's foot goes onto the bottom rope breaking the pin.

Brock shows intense frustration, and pulls Shawn by the ankle toward the corner. Brock exits the ring and pulls Shawn by the legs until they're on either side of the corner pole. Brock holds both of Shawn's ankles from the outside, and Shawn quickly pulls back causing Brock's head to crash into the pole. Brock stumbles and makes back into the ring. Shawn puts Brock in the corner and delivers a series of "WOO!" chops. Shawn attempts an Irish whip to the other corner, Brock reverses and whips Shawn to the other corner. Brock charges, and is hit with a superkick that leaves him lifeless on his back. Shawn climbs the top rope and delivers an elbow drop. Shawn turns his head to see a scuffle brewing nearby.

Heyman attacks the other ref, but is overpowered by the ref who knocks out Heyman on his own. Shawn signals Sweet Chin Music while Brock slowly gets back up. As Shawn is approaching Brock, Brock launches at Shawn with a huge swing of his right arm... which Shawn ducks. Shawn grabs Lesnar and delivers an Angle Slam. Shawn stands up and walks to the opposite corner appearing to celebrate. Lesnar snaps back up and Shawn spins around, the two rush toward each other. Shawn hits the Running Knee.

Shawn falls onto Lesnar, hooks the leg, and the ref counts.

1,2....3.

 

[Savior of Silence]

So Heyman turns on Lesnar, then turns on HBK, and Michaels hits Sweet Chin Music several times, an AA, Angle Slam and a Daniel Bryan running knee to win?

You really DO need to be imaginative for HBK to win...because that's the only place it would possibly happen; In Imagination Land.

EDIT: Oh, and a Guerrero Frog Splash, Tombstone and Stevie Richards' patented multiple German suplexes.

 

[DarksideEric]

I'm not entirely sure that KB is even pretending to stay logical at this point. I love you and all KB, but it seems like you're just leaning on "Lesnar shouldn't win" as your only actual argument.

While I don't believe Lesnar ever really deserves to be labeled the best ever, or arguably even in the top 50 best ever, no matter who he's beaten, it doesn't make logical sense for Shawn to win here.

Does it make "feel good" sense? Yes.

Logical sense? No.

Going by the rules of the tournament, Shawn would put up a great fight, but he'd simply run out of gas before he could beat Lesnar. There's a reason why a lot of video games have save points right before a major boss battle, so you can heal up and regroup. Brock is the boss monster here, and Shawn was given no save point.

 

[Miko]

So we have someone who basically does two moves and is called one of the best ever, vs. someone who could wrestle against anyone. Brock is incredibly fun to watch in small doses, but he gets very repetitive in a hurry. If anyone else used 16 suplexes and a handful of the same finisher in a row, they would be booed out of the building. Brock is nowhere near as great as people make him out to be. He's very fun to watch, but he's not that great.

The question is who would win. That should be Shawn.

Going back to this, if you're implying that the "best wrestler" should win, what the fuck is Shawn Michaels even doing in the final? How has Undertaker won a tournament? How has Shawn Michaels won a tournament? Sorry, but that argument got scuttled years ago, and doesn't hold any weight now just because one day in 1996 Shawn Michaels put on a clinic (which he probably lost).

Its a nice argument, like all others, that suits people when it suits them. For consistency reasons, however, I'd be surprised if HBK got this far off the back of that argument, not if he went over the Rock. Whereas I am certain Lesnar has gotten this far off the back of being the Beast incarnate.

Stay consistent people, don't move those goalposts, vote Lesnar.

The point Miko is making - that Lesnar doesn't do plucky underdog, Michaels usually loses when he's the underdog - is the sound you can hear sailing over your head.

Thank you.

 

[enviousdominous]

So Heyman turns on Lesnar, then turns on HBK, and Michaels hits Sweet Chin Music several times, an AA, Angle Slam and a Daniel Bryan running knee to win?

You really DO need to be imaginative for HBK to win...because that's the only place it would possibly happen; In Imagination Land.

EDIT: Oh, and a Guerrero Frog Splash, Tombstone and Stevie Richards' patented multiple German suplexes.

Well I don't have enough money to get my own promoter's license, lease an arena, and still come up with the cash necessary to pay Shawn and Brock's salaries. Not to mention I'd have to pay Vince a shit ton of bitcoin just to use his talent. For fucks sake, if I scrounged up enough sofa pennies to make that happen it would still only be a matter of monetary compensation. Bottom line; PRO-WRESTLING IS IMAGINATION LAND!!

And you're damn right Shawn would have to use more than just his own finisher, Dolph Ziggler and Alberto Del Rio have hackneyed the FUCK out of the superkick. Brock has been booked as the Thanos of the WWE, Shawn would need to use more than just his wits to stop him.

Plus; I feel like repeating that interference would have to happen. I think I made my version of the match fair in that Heyman screwed with both of them and the original ref was the one making the final count. Either way, I'm at the acceptance stage of my cycle of grief. Let's just accept that Shawn got more votes, and therefore he gets the win.

 

[klunderbunker]

Going back to this, if you're implying that the "best wrestler" should win, what the fuck is Shawn Michaels even doing in the final?

He's one of the best ever?

How has Undertaker won a tournament?

Best record ever on the biggest stage of them all.

How has Shawn Michaels won a tournament?

He's one of the best ever. We just covered this material.

Sorry, but that argument got scuttled years ago,

When? The worst wrestler to win this is........geez I guess Undertaker?

and doesn't hold any weight now just because one day in 1996 Shawn Michaels put on a clinic (which he probably lost).

You really don't know much history do you? Also I'll take SHawn's numerous clinics over Brock's handful of good matches anyday.

Its a nice argument, like all others, that suits people when it suits them. For consistency reasons, however, I'd be surprised if HBK got this far off the back of that argument, not if he went over the Rock. Whereas I am certain Lesnar has gotten this far off the back of being the Beast incarnate.

That would be the BEast incarnate who had a good match with Cena, three fair ones with HHH which had people begging for something else, a good one with Punk, a bad one with Undertaker, and then the good ones with Cena and a good one with Reigns.

Other than that, what has Brock done that was good or better? The fact that it took me that long to list off most of his best matches says all you need to know.

Stay consistent people, don't move those goalposts, vote Lesnar.

Suggesting the Brock Lesnar is consistent is laughable. He's had a good year. Shawn has had good decades.

 

[rbv13]

This is wrestling so shits fixed. Although you are a giant piece of shit, congrats Shawn.

Seriously, it was a fun tournament with many entertaining discussions.

 

[#MrScissorsKick]

I don't know how to say this without sounding stupid but after taking some time to really think this through, I got to say Shawn wins here. Realistically, if this match goes on longer than 30 or so minutes, Shawn has the history of winning matches that go on longer than 30 or so minutes. He's done it twice with Cena in April of 2007, and his match with Bret at WrestleMania.

Brock has the strength to win this match if he's able to stop HBK from using his quickness and agility. Shawn knows every move and every step from the book, he's been doing this for quite sometime. I got Michaels winning this with the top rope elbow for the pin. Lesnar loses nothing.

 

[Miko]

Ugh, quote breakdown, fine, I'll play

He's one of the best ever?

Write an objective list of best ever, and see where Shawn comes. I guarantee he doesn't touch top five, whereas people that are in that list haven't won this thing... Sorry, that argument is scuttled.

Best record ever on the biggest stage of them all.

Write an objective list of best ever, and see where Undertaker comes. I guarantee he doesn't touch top five, whereas people that are in that list haven't won this thing... Sorry, that argument is scuttled.

He's one of the best ever. We just covered this material.

Write an objective list of best ever, and see where Shawn comes. I guarantee he doesn't touch top five, whereas people that are in that list haven't won this thing... Sorry, that argument is scuttled.

When? The worst wrestler to win this is........geez I guess Undertaker?

Write an objective list of best ever, and see where Undertaker comes. I guarantee he doesn't touch top five, whereas people that are in that list haven't won this thing... Sorry, that argument is scuttled.

You really don't know much history do you? Also I'll take SHawn's numerous clinics over Brock's handful of good matches anyday.

That's all well and good, but he still wouldn't win.

That would be the BEast incarnate who had a good match with Cena, three fair ones with HHH which had people begging for something else, a good one with Punk, a bad one with Undertaker, and then the good ones with Cena and a good one with Reigns.

Other than that, what has Brock done that was good or better? The fact that it took me that long to list off most of his best matches says all you need to know.

Thats all your prerogative, but why would Shawn win again? I'd take the Rock's body of work over both of these guys, therefor the Rock is a better wrestler who should be winning this thing. Lesnar's already steamrolled people that Shawn has historically struggeld to match up to, or do you think HBK's wins over Taker where ever somehow dominant?

Suggesting the Brock Lesnar is consistent is laughable. He's had a good year. Shawn has had good decades.

I never said Brock was consistent, I said I bet the reasons for voting Brock remained consistent rather than back-peddling and moving the goalposts.

 

[Miko]

You really don't know much history do you?

*Snark snark*

I'll appreciate I don't have the free time or indeed inclination to brush up on my knowledge as some, but I do know that Shawn Michaels is pretty much the most overrated of all time, and wrestling (or WWF) getting good again, more or less coincided with Shawn Michaels taking a leave of absence and the breath of fresh air Stone Cold Steve Austin was. Also, read; hyperbole(bowl ), he put on good matches, but what good is good matches when every fucker is watching Nitro anyway? Boyhood dream? Tight shorts? Sure, but who really cared?

 

[gd]

I think Brock Lesnar would win because he is bigger and has a cool tattoo.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I never said Brock was consistent, I said I bet the reasons for voting Brock remained consistent rather than back-peddling and moving the goalposts.

Dude, the guys moved the goal posts so far in this thing that they've crossed state lines by now.

He mentioned earlier in the tournament that this was a 'one and done' thing when arguing someone else's fantasy booking reasons for a guy to go on.

Then he gives that as his reason to put HBK over here.

Then one of the least sympathetic babyfaces of all time is supposed to send the fans home happy by overcoming the odds and beating the monster heel Lesnar.

Then it's simply that he's rewarding the guy who's the greater wrestler, and being snarky about others not knowing their history for disagreeing... even though he actually voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino!

Enough said there.

People want to vote based on who's had the better career? Hard to use that criteria when one guys retired, and the others still got plenty of years to go. One thing to keep in mind there though... at this point in his career, Lesnar's accomplished far more than HBK had at the same point.

People want to vote based on who's the better wrestler? Fair enough, but just keep in mind that the styles you see these guys use in the ring are dictated to them to a degree based on what McMahon thinks suits their character best. Brock used to do a hell of a lot more than just suplex the shit out of people. But it's been decided that's what they want him doing, so that's what he does. Take him out of a WWE ring, and take the reigns off, and you'd get to see everything else he can do. Also keep in mind that for all the credit some give HBK on his selling, he's also had a fair number of detractors who've said that his selling is phoney and self serving.

If we actually followed the rules of this tournament, there wouldn't even be a discussion. A fresh Brock comes in and crushes an already weakened HBK. If we want to book this looking towards the future, then the argument that the face has to win to, and it's boring to have one guy steamroll over everyone is easily countered with you're building a mega monster heel to put over your next mega face in the future.

You've had Brock crush Steve Austin and John Cena back to back. Two of the biggest names of all time, and Lesnar manhandles both of them. You've already put the ball into motion that this guy is a force, and it's going to take an even greater force to stop him. Is HBK that even greater force? A guy who's character always worked best as the cocky heel people wanted to see get beat up? Or is that even greater force someone who the fans can really get behind... who they WANT to get behind.

Let Brock win this year, and next year have him start steamrolling competition again.. because you fucked up and put the wrong guy with him in the money spot. THEN, bring out that even greater force, put that guy over Brock, and you have your new face of a generation.

THAT's the other side of booking this thing for the future. Goalpost - moved back onto the field!

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Dude, the guys moved the goal posts so far in this thing that they've crossed state lines by now.

He mentioned earlier in the tournament that this was a 'one and done' thing when arguing someone else's fantasy booking reasons for a guy to go on.

Then he gives that as his reason to put HBK over here.

Then one of the least sympathetic babyfaces of all time is supposed to send the fans home happy by overcoming the odds and beating the monster heel Lesnar.

Then it's simply that he's rewarding the guy who's the greater wrestler, and being snarky about others not knowing their history for disagreeing... even though he actually voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino!

Enough said there.

People want to vote based on who's had the better career? Hard to use that criteria when one guys retired, and the others still got plenty of years to go. One thing to keep in mind there though... at this point in his career, Lesnar's accomplished far more than HBK had at the same point.

People want to vote based on who's the better wrestler? Fair enough, but just keep in mind that the styles you see these guys use in the ring are dictated to them to a degree based on what McMahon thinks suits their character best. Brock used to do a hell of a lot more than just suplex the shit out of people. But it's been decided that's what they want him doing, so that's what he does. Take him out of a WWE ring, and take the reigns off, and you'd get to see everything else he can do. Also keep in mind that for all the credit some give HBK on his selling, he's also had a fair number of detractors who've said that his selling is phoney and self serving.

If we actually followed the rules of this tournament, there wouldn't even be a discussion. A fresh Brock comes in and crushes an already weakened HBK. If we want to book this looking towards the future, then the argument that the face has to win to, and it's boring to have one guy steamroll over everyone is easily countered with you're building a mega monster heel to put over your next mega face in the future.

You've had Brock crush Steve Austin and John Cena back to back. Two of the biggest names of all time, and Lesnar manhandles both of them. You've already put the ball into motion that this guy is a force, and it's going to take an even greater force to stop him. Is HBK that even greater force? A guy who's character always worked best as the cocky heel people wanted to see get beat up? Or is that even greater force someone who the fans can really get behind... who they WANT to get behind.

Let Brock win this year, and next year have him start steamrolling competition again.. because you fucked up and put the wrong guy with him in the money spot. THEN, bring out that even greater force, put that guy over Brock, and you have your new face of a generation.

THAT's the other side of booking this thing for the future. Goalpost - moved back onto the field!

Ah my old friend, we meet for the final battle and I see you are braying about Brock and keeping your pout alive for HBK, tell me, what has HBK done best in his prime run till 98?

Oh I see you smirking, you're about to write "yadda yadda well he lost his smile yuck yuck yuck!" He did, but in that ring he beat the likes of Vader and Sid who were built as ruthless monsters.

Swiping away the curtain

And now you shall cry politics, changing goalpo...apologies, thats your catchphrase for this one.


Here is what I think KB has been trying to say; Shawn has a good record of beating monsters on big platforms, he had a short prime but hey Brock in just past his first prime year here, Brock is the ultimate fodder, he is the final boss; Final bosses don't win. If this is the last match, if this is the ME of Mania, tell me what is the likely outcome?

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Ah my old friend, we meet for the final battle and I see you are braying about Brock and keeping your pout alive for HBK, tell me, what has HBK done best in his prime run till 98?

Oh I see you smirking, you're about to write "yadda yadda well he lost his smile yuck yuck yuck!" He did, but in that ring he beat the likes of Vader and Sid who were built as ruthless monsters.

Swiping away the curtain

And now you shall cry politics, changing goalpo...apologies, thats your catchphrase for this one.


Here is what I think KB has been trying to say; Shawn has a good record of beating monsters on big platforms, he had a short prime but hey Brock in just past his first prime year here, Brock is the ultimate fodder, he is the final boss; Final bosses don't win. If this is the last match, if this is the ME of Mania, tell me what is the likely outcome?

Vader beat Micheals twice in the Summerslam match but made the ref restart. Only then did Micheals beat him. And Sid beat micheals for the title first. Only then did Micheals beat him.

I think what people are saying is that tradition states that Micheals would first lose then win the rematch.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

In a one off like this, Im picturing the Main Event of Mania with Brock going up against HBK, a big ass monster heel romping away faces a face Micheals. The run up to the big show will have Brock dig up the grave of Jose Lothario and F5 a skeleton. It will have Brock stalk Sunny even though HBK and Sunny are just 'friends' and most importantly, Brock will hunt down H and give him the beating o a lifetime. Why? Coz thats what big ass monster heels do in the run up to the big match.

HBK is the underdog and since we are not booking rematches, would win this Once In A Lifetime match up.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Ah my old friend, we meet for the final battle and I see you are braying about Brock and keeping your pout alive for HBK, tell me, what has HBK done best in his prime run till 98?

Oh I see you smirking, you're about to write "yadda yadda well he lost his smile yuck yuck yuck!" He did, but in that ring he beat the likes of Vader and Sid who were built as ruthless monsters.

Swiping away the curtain

And now you shall cry politics, changing goalpo...apologies, thats your catchphrase for this one.


Here is what I think KB has been trying to say; Shawn has a good record of beating monsters on big platforms, he had a short prime but hey Brock in just past his first prime year here, Brock is the ultimate fodder, he is the final boss; Final bosses don't win. If this is the last match, if this is the ME of Mania, tell me what is the likely outcome?

In a one off like this, Im picturing the Main Event of Mania with Brock going up against HBK, a big ass monster heel romping away faces a face Micheals. The run up to the big show will have Brock dig up the grave of Jose Lothario and F5 a skeleton. It will have Brock stalk Sunny even though HBK and Sunny are just 'friends' and most importantly, Brock will hunt down H and give him the beating o a lifetime. Why? Coz thats what big ass monster heels do in the run up to the big match.

HBK is the underdog and since we are not booking rematches, would win this Once In A Lifetime match up.

If THAT"s how you're picturing this... then you definitely do not see what he's saying... or I'm pretty sure even read most of the posts here.

But you're also following the rules of this thing as well as the guy who made them up... which is to say only when it's convenient for you to do so, so you have that going for you.

There isn't some epic, Wrestlemania style build to this "one time only" main event. This is the third match in a single night. Brock isn't beating up Jose Lothario... beating up Triple H... beating up everyone HBK has ever loved. He's just beating up Steve Austin and John Cena... the guys he destroyed earlier in the night to get to this final match.

HBK can be the plucky underdog that overcomes the odds... but PRIME HBK, is a guy who SUCKED at the sympathetic face role. (remember when you told me that guys had to be in their prime for this?) They tried it with him. It didn't work, and it's one of the reasons their business was so bad when he was champ.

It's already been mentioned, but Michaels was not good at beating monsters in his prime. He had a tough time with Vader, and he lost his title to Sid (again remember previously, you've argued that the match result was all that mattered, and that non-TV matches don't count). Thing with those two though? Is that neither was at the level that Lesnar is. You can make a case for WCW Vader, but by the time Michaels needed 3 tries to beat him at Summerslam, he was just a shadow of his old WCW self. If HBK didn't fare well against lesser monsters than Lesnar, why would he beat a tougher one like Brock Lesnar?

I know none of this matters anymore, since it's been decided and Klunderblunker's called for the bell as soon as HBK got a sloppy kimura on Brock (because they agreed it would be a good spot to start the second half of the match), but still. Your final post here pretty much just illustrates how convenient people have played with the rules of the tournament here. Preach them to death when they benefit the guy they like, and throw them out the window with whatever justification they can conjure up when they don't benefit their guy.