Can LeBron Possibly Catch Jordan?

Discussion in 'The Sports Arena' started by SSJPhenom, May 2, 2017.

  1. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    This is a subject that has come up and probably will continue to come up forever. It is widely considered by many, if not all, people that Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player in the history of the league. Somebody once described greatness as the following: It's when everyone who came before are almost irrelevant and everyone who came after are compared to. That's Michael Jordan in the NBA. LeBron James, though, continues to get his name into the conversation. I know many of you out there are the simple sort and you'll think to yourselves, "Well just look at each player's stats". We can do that.

    Michael Jordan was a 6'6" Shooting Guard who accomplished the following:

    Two-time Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame
    class of 2009 – individual
    class of 2010 – as a member of the "Dream Team"
    U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame – class of 2009 (as a member of the "Dream Team")
    FIBA Hall of Fame – class of 2015
    Two-time Olympic Gold Medal winner – 1984, 1992
    Six-time NBA champion
    Six-time NBA Finals MVP
    Five-time NBA MVP
    10-time NBA scoring leader (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
    14-time NBA All-Star
    Three-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
    11-time All-NBA
    Nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team
    Two-time NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion – 1987, 1988
    NBA Rookie of the Year – 1984–85
    NBA Defensive Player of the Year – 1987–88
    1985 IBM Award winner
    NCAA national championship – University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill: 1981–82
    ACC Freshman of the Year – 1981–82
    Two-time Consensus NCAA All-American First Team – 1982–83, 1983–84

    LeBron James is a 6'8" Small Forward who has accomplished the following:

    Three-time NBA Champion: 2012, 2013, 2016
    Three-time NBA Finals MVP: 2012, 2013, 2016
    Four-time NBA Most Valuable Player: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
    13-time NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
    Two-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006, 2008
    Ten-time All-NBA First Team: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
    Two-time All-NBA Second Team: 2005, 2007
    Five-time NBA All-Defensive First Team: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
    NBA All-Defensive Second Team: 2014
    2004 NBA Rookie of the Year
    2004 NBA All-Rookie First Team
    2008 NBA Scoring Champion
    Two-time Olympic Gold Medal winner: 2008, 2012
    2004 Olympic Bronze Medal winner
    2006 FIBA World Championship Bronze Medal winner
    2007 FIBA Americas Championship Gold Medal winner
    2012 USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year
    Commemorative banner in Miami's American Airlines Arena (for his 2012 gold medal won as a member of the Miami Heat)

    Looking at each player's accomplishments, LeBron actually isn't far behind Jordan in a lot of areas. What's more, LeBron accomplished a lot of his feats at a much younger age than Jordan accomplished his meaning that LeBron still has plenty of time to surpass Jordan's accomplishments. I'm here to tell you that it's about more than stats and accomplishments. Michael Jordan didn't reach the NBA Finals until his 7th season in the league. LeBron did it in 4. So LeBron is more impressive in that regard, right? Wrong. Jordan won his first NBA Finals and LeBron didn't. Actually LeBron lost his first 2 NBA Finals. Jordan won his first 6 NBA Finals. In actuality, Lebron has already been to one more NBA Finals than Jordan went to, but LeBron only has half the championships that Jordan has. Every time Jordan made it to the Finals, not only did he win, he never ever went the full 7 games. LeBron has lost Finals and went 7 games in the Finals. It's things like this that the stats and accomplishments leave out. They also leave out that LeBron is the only non Celtic in NBA history to go to 6 straight NBA Finals. They leave out that a LeBron led Cavs team in 2016 was the very first team ever to come back from being down 3 games to 1 in the Finals and win. Jordan never went to 6 straight NBA Finals and he never made that comeback. It's things like that that keep LeBron in the conversation with Jordan as the GOAT. LeBron, IMO, has already passed Larry Bird as the greatest SF of all time. IMO, he should already be considered as one of the top 5 players of all time and the man is only 32. He has several years left to continue making his mark.

    When LeBron's career is over, do you think it possible that he will have surpassed Jordan as the greatest of all time? Is he already close? Does anyone think that he's already surpassed Jordan? Let me know your opinions.
     
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  2. The Life Of Pablo Ren

    The Life Of Pablo Ren I know my name/avi/sig don't match.

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    I didn't really get to see Jordan play, he retired when I was 7 which was a few years before I started watching basketball. So I guess with that said my answer has a little bit of bias to it, but in my opinion LeBron has already surpassed him. I think LeBron's more talented of an athlete, he's the smartest man I've ever seen on a basketball court and he has the innate ability to make everyone around him better and completely change a team either for better or worse. Jordan didn't have that, at least certainly not to that extent. After Jordan's first retirement in 93, the Bulls finished that season with 55 wins which was only two less than the previous year. If LeBron were to retire after this season, the Cavs would be in absolute shambles. When LeBron left the Cavs after the 2010 season, they went from 61 wins to 19... the sheer impact he has on a team is unmatched by anyone else who's ever played the game.

    The only thing Jordan holds over LeBron are the 6 rings and the perfect finals record. But, and I know this is a tired argument though I do think there's validity to it, LeBron is facing better teams in the finals than Jordan had to. Obviously LeBron has a far easier path through the East to get to the finals than Jordan did, but if Jordan had to go up against the same Spurs/Warriors teams that LeBron had to, I really really don't think he'd be 6-0.
     
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  3. Fire Marshall Bill

    Fire Marshall Bill Let me show ya somethin!!!

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    I'm going to do the short version, because I've gone over this on here before.

    No. And it's not even close for me. I don't even have to look at stats. I could go on about how Jordan would literally get triple teamed for most of a game and still score 30. I could go on about how the game is so much different now and James doesn't have to worry about getting hurt nearly as often for even coming into the paint. I could reiterate some of your more obvious points about Finals (which I would say it's unfair to argue Jordan not going to 6 straight considering his absence from the game).

    What I know is a guy who crowned himself King James couldn't hack it with his people so he left them to go play with 2 of the best in the league. Even when he was there he couldn't pull off 100% in the Finals. He's a great player who I also respect as an athlete. And what he helped do for Cleveland last year was awesome, but what he did first was just plain wrong. And the manner he did it in just made it that much worse. I've seen people argue he had the right to leave if he wanted (free agency) and that "The Decision" raised money for charity, etc. It doesn't change the fact that it instantly made him one of the most hated athletes on the planet. It doesn't change the fact that "The Chosen One" basically left his hometown, when he was initially supposed to be their hero who delivered a championship, with 2 middle fingers raised in the air. It showed, to me, that he does not have the heart of a champion.
     
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  4. Khalifa

    Khalifa Where it at doe?

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    Thank you Bill for bringing that up about Lebron. My opinion has changed about Lebron quite a lot. I use to hate him, then he was okay, then I thought he was better than bird and now I think he is behind Bird and would be lucky to catch Bird as the greatest SF of all time. Lebron is special, really he is the dream player anyone can make in terms of size and speed. He is a great team mate as well.

    But because Durant has now become the new villain; everyone seems to be okay with what Lebron did, and that was change the NBA for life. The dude has proven he can't win it all by himself. If it isn't him joining superstars to create a super team, it's him getting players that are looking to do a Durant and just go to the team that beats ya (Ray Allen). Lebron has literally gone from having to do it all himself to hoping his team mates show up so they can win. The Cavs aren't even the first seed in the east this year. I know that means fuck all but could you imagine Jordan not finishing at the top with Rodman and Pippen? Jordan's team was out making history while Lebron is out resting because he doesn't give a shit about the first 82 games. That can be fair enough, but when comparing the two you have to acknowledge that Jordan never rested no matter when it was.

    It's a bit rough because Lebron has done so much, and is a top 10 player ever. I just can't accept the fact that someone of Lebrons calibre has to create super teams, doesn't average a triple double (not that it means anything but if anyone was to average a triple double everyone woulda said Lebron to do it instead of Westbrook) and literally break the rules with every dribble he does or step he takes. The different rules have probably padded lebrons stats a bit more than compared to if he was playing back in Jordan's today.

    I'd still take Kobe over Lebron.
     
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  5. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I appreciate your opinion but don't act like Jordan ever did it all by himself either. As a matter of fact, I'd say when comparing the two when they didn't have other good teammates to play with LeBron would be better than Jordan. Do you know why? In the 06-07 season, LeBron took a Cavs team where the next best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskas to the Finals. Jordan never ever even made it past the Pistons until after Pippen had already become a 2 time all star. Also, let's not forget that Jordan also had other players on his team like the best 3 pt shooter in the league at that time in Horace Grant and the greatest percentage 3 pt shooter of all time in Steve Kerr. Don't sit there and act like Jordan didn't have help or do you not consider a team with a core of Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman a super team?
     
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  6. Khalifa

    Khalifa Where it at doe?

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    You are completely right Phenom. Jordan had some awesome team mates. Pippen is my second favourite player of all time behind Kobe. Rodman on the court for the most part, is the perfect teammate to a superstar. Doesn't need touches and plays d. Horace Grant obviously a big cog for their first three peat. Kukoc was a typical European player and Ron Harper is a legend as well (not that great of a player though, just great teammate).

    There is a clear difference between lebrons team and Jordan's team. Lebron made his team while the Bulls made Jordan's team. Jordan didn't leave and speak to 2 other superstars in the league (Chris Paul was rumoured to be in on it as well so that'd make 3 superstars) and say look let's go here and win a ring. Lebron did do that. Rodman came to the bulls and I know Jordan and Pippen had a bit of a rally for him to come but it wasn't fucking decided 2 years before it happened like Lebron, Bosh and Wade (I said fucking because it still annoys me, not to try and prove a point to you Phenom). Jordan would never do that. Pippen was basically drafted to the bulls (traded on draft night) so it was mostly pure luck for Jordan. Well kind of anyways. It took a hell of a lot of skill for MJ and the boys but it was lucky that the pieces reached their potential and all meshed together. Lebron never got lucky, he chose. Lebron gave up on his team (fair enough they were trash but still) and when they got some decent players again (Irving, Thompson, waiters were all top 4 picks, they also had wiggins coming in as well) he thought maybe these guys can help me bring a championship home.

    As far as I'm concerened Jordan never chose his team mates and that's why his rings are more credible than James.
     
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  7. Fire Marshall Bill

    Fire Marshall Bill Let me show ya somethin!!!

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    Horace Grant the greatest 3pt shooter of the time? You mean a guy who, at his best, attempted .1 3pts a game? Hmm...you're easy to please.

    Steve Kerr, greatest 3 pt shooter of all time? Yeah, ok. Again, easy to please. Does that mean guys like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen are cheaters because they were too good? I bet you think Steph Curry made a deal with the devil.

    And your point about Pippen and Rodman (who no one would consider a top 20 player at the time. He was a role player with very unique skills and no offensive game whatsoever) is worthless against my argument. Jordan didn't run off like a baby to play with them, did he?
     
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  8. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I'm sorry. I always do that, I get Grant and Hodges mixed up. I meant Craig Hodges was the best 3 pt shooter at that time.

    Re-read what I said. I said that Kerr is the greatest percentage 3 pt shooter of all time. Not the best, just it is fact that he has the best 3 pt percentage of any player throughout his career. I don't think he's better than Allen or Miller or Curry. He just shot a higher percentage.

    Rodman a role player? Seriously? A guy who had already won 2 championships with the Pistons? A guy who had been twice the defensive player of the year? a Guy who had been twice an all star? A guy who had made 6 All NBA teams up to that point? That guy was a role player? Sheesh, you must be impossible to please.
     
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  9. Fire Marshall Bill

    Fire Marshall Bill Let me show ya somethin!!!

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    Opinions vary. There were many power forwards I'd have taken over him at the time. And everywhere he went he was never the star player. If he were, teams would've put up with him longer. Do you remember how much he was traded around? Though his unique personality was key to getting under Karl Malone's skin. Either way, my initial point about Jordan not running off to them still stands.

    Anyway, as I stated in my first post, I've debated this enough. If Sly can't change my mind, you can't.
     
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  10. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Don't get it twisted. At this point in time, I don't think that LeBron is better than Jordan or even Jordan's equal. Jordan is still the GOAT and LeBron still has his work cut out for him if he wants to change that. One can't deny, though, that LeBron continues to throw his name into the ring with Jordan.

    When the Heat lost the Finals to the Mavericks in 2011; I thought, like a lot of people thought, that it was going to be impossible for LeBron to catch Jordan. He had already lost his first Finals appearance. Honestly it was a Finals that he should probably have never been in but he was and in 2011, not only did he lose that Finals appearance, but he completely choked. Didn't even want the ball at a lot of points in those games. I thought LeBron's legacy was going to forever be tainted after that. Then, in 2012, he had that excellent series against the Celtics and Thunder and went on the win his first championship. Then, in 2013's Finals, he had that miraculous game 7 against the Spurs that was nothing short of amazing. Then, in 2015, with Irving and Love down, he took the Warriors to 6 games when the next best player on his team in that series was Dellavedova. Of course, last year, he leads his team to be the first ever team to come back from being down 3-1 in the Finals to win against the greatest regular season team in NBA history. One would be foolish not to acknowledge the things that LeBron has and continues to accomplish.

    Sure, he left the Cavs to join 2 other All-Stars and create a super team to win his first Championship. That rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Including me. That didn't change how he played, though. He continued to be the best player in the NBA. Then he left that team to go to the Cavs after they had had a number of high draft picks. He was still the best player in the league though and the one that put the new Cavs teams over the edge to become championship contenders. Say what you will about LeBron James, but he continues to amaze and continues to show why the book isn't exactly closed yet on him reaching or maybe even surpassing Jordan status.
     
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  11. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    In all fairness, his performance in the NBA Finals should erase any doubt that LeBron didn't/doesn't have the "heart of a champion." To come back from down 3-1 (a feat never seen in the NBA Finals before) to a team that had just won last year's Finals, set the record for most wins in a regular season, and had the unanimous MVP on the court is pretty impressive. Throw in the fact that he also lead both teams in the 5 major categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks) and any question about his heart was answered during those 7 games.

    But that goes for every superstar in the league from LeBron to Kobe to Jordan to even older greats like Wilt and Bill Russell. Only player who could've maybe used that argument would've been Westbrook of this season had OKC won the championship. Everybody needs somebody else great in order to win a championship.

    Quite possibly because we've deemed the regular season almost meaningless. The Warriors had a historic season last year and more than likely won't get brought up unless it's brought up as a trivia question, another team gets close to breaking that record, and because there's more emphasis on what you do in the playoffs rather than in the regular season. The quote a lot of people were using this offseason was "It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring" so forget what so and so does from October to May, wake me up when it matters. In my eyes, that's why KD left. It gave him the best opportunity to be a major part of a team that could win a ring while making max money. I'll acknowledge that Jordan never rested but it's not like James is going through the motions when averaging 26+ points and nearly 9 rebounds and assists a game when he steps on the floor.

    So if Wade and Bosh were to go to Cleveland through the wheeling and dealing of David Griffin instead of James and Bosh making the move to Miami, would that make his two titles any more credible or would we still be using the same argument that LeBron couldn't do it without help? Because, I'm not convinced that the people who don't want LeBron near the Jordan comparison wouldn't try to find a way to say Wade and Bosh won those championships and not LeBron in a similar way they try to say that Irving was the biggest reason that the Cavs won last year.

    At the end of the day, I'm still taking Jordan over LeBron if given the first pick in a fantast draft but LeBron is much closer to the legacy of Michael Jordan than people want to admit.
     
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  12. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    It's not about you changing your mind, just getting you to see why you're wrong. ;)

    Let's ignore for a moment the difficulty in comparing two different types of players who played two different positions in two different eras and pretend there can be a valid argument.

    If you take Michael Jordan's six championships, which are team accomplishments, out of the equation, by what metric can you claim Jordan is better than LeBron? He wasn't a better (or more versatile) defender or a better ball handler. He was a better scorer (though with a lower shooting percentage), but not nearly as good of a passer or rebounder. And, simply put, he wasn't as good of a teammate as LeBron.

    So when you take the ONE team accomplishment out of the equation, how can you say Jordan was better? The fact is if the roles had been reversed, if LeBron had come before Jordan and Jordan had grown up in the 24/7 social media era, Jordan would never be as heralded as he is today and LeBron would be the ghost everyone tries to catch. Jordan's gambling and womanizing would have been far more prominent in the headlines, his merchandising would not be revolutionary and the Bulls wouldn't have been able to put a quality team around him.

    They, along with Wilt and possibly Kareem, are the greatest basketball players ever. But if you want to ignore the difficulties in comparing them and do so anyways, there's just not any argument which can be made to support Jordan over LeBron, aside from pointing to the accomplishment of 12 guys, numerous coaches and front office personnel. And that's not really the best way to compare individuals.
    So what you're saying is that Jordan is better than LeBron because the early 90s Bulls front office was better than the mid-00s Cavs front office, and because people actually want to play with LeBron and people didn't want to play with Jordan?

    And this sounds like a logical argument to you?
     
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  13. A11oftheLights

    A11oftheLights Getting Noticed By Management

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    Lebron is better or will be better. Jordan never beat a good team. He couldnt get through the celtics and he couldnt get around the pistons. Beat a weak lakers before beating teams that werent championship calibre teams (you can say they werent championship teams becaause they werent good enough to beat jordan and the bulls but end of the day they werent championship teams) meanwhile Lebron has beaten the spurs dynasty, the warriors, the celtics and a thunder side that will have had at least 3 hall of famers on it. If he does it again this year there isnt even a case to be answered, there will be daylight behind Lebron and the only thing that would keep it close would be nostalgia. People cant hack it that someone is destroying their childhood and they hat on it instead of sitting back and enjoying greatness
     
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  14. DaBadGuy

    DaBadGuy Occasional Pre-Show

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    Not to take anything away from LeBron but that year he made it to the Finals the East was pretty weak. He pretty much had a cakewalk to the Eastern Conference Finals playing against a Wizards team without Arenas and Jamison and the Nets that was a .500 team with an aging Kidd and Carter along with an injury prone Jefferson and a bunch of scrub players. And even that Pistons team was a shell of their former selves, losing Ben Wallace in free agency and Larry Brown leaving for New York. Also the Cavs were second in the East that year right behind only the Pistons and had a top 5 defense. Don't get me wrong I feel that LeBron may have took one of the worst supporting cast to the Finals along with Iverson and Olajuwon but at the same time I think it's important to look at the level of competition.
     
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  15. DaBadGuy

    DaBadGuy Occasional Pre-Show

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    Ok your going to far in terms of saying he's never beat a good team. The Suns, Sonics, and Jazz were all 60 plus win teams during those years they went to the Finals with Barkley and Malone being MVP's of those teams and Payton being the DPOY. I can sort of agree with the Lakers but they weren't weak, a shell of their former selves, yes but they still had the second best record in the West and Magic was second in MVP voting that year behind only Jordan, same withe Drexler in 92. And also Jordan swept the Pistons in 91 and may have beaten them the year before that if Pippen wasn't dealing with concussions
     
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  16. Khalifa

    Khalifa Where it at doe?

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    Because I'm on my phone and I'm too lazy to delete something that would take 5 seconds and just quote the quotes, I will just go @.

    First @ SlyFox: Before I answer; I would say it's actually the opposite, being able to bring in those guys and then the role players isn't an easy task. Great job by the front office but it does reflect on Lebron. No credibility for the US team running wild on crap teams. While that is in a different ball park altogether, the point is that if you just join up with the best players to win titles, willingly, how can you take the glory for it.

    @ Franchise.

    First quote: You're right, you can't win titles without another great player on your team 99 times out of 100, but the difference is Lebron chose his. Kobe wasn't guaranteed Shaq/Pau, Duncan wasn't guaranteed Parker/Manu/Leonard and Jordan wasn't guaranteed Pippen.

    Second quote: True, and I agree but KD will never in the best at his position talks because of his possible rings at Warriors. You can have rings but I can list so many players that have rings but weren't the reason for that ring. Every series baring the Mavs one (maybe the series when Spurs went off as welll) that he has lost he has been a lot better and really would've been better wins than all his other rings other than last years.

    Third quote: 100% they woulda been more credible because it wasn't a set in stone thing or top 5 players joining each other willingly. That's it hey were traded of course.

    I use to be a real big Lebron hater, but I respect him more than anyone in the league now and I know he is the best by a long way, he just ain't the GOAT.
     
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  17. Fire Marshall Bill

    Fire Marshall Bill Let me show ya somethin!!!

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    Seriously? A weak conference argument? Anyone trying to use a weak conference argument for Lebron James has lost all credibility. The Eastern Conference has been a joke for most of his career. When he was too young and not good enough to make it regardless, the Pistons were good. There was a small gap in there where he made it to the Finals and got swept, before the Celtics took 3 aging stars and managed to keep them pretty good for a couple years. Since then, it's literally been made fun of it's so terrible. Losing records have made it in the playoffs. I mean that is literally the worst argument you could ever make in James' defense. Teams with winning records have missed out in the West, while losing teams made the playoffs in the East.

    The only teams I would even think about would be the Rose era Bulls, but they had barely any offense, and their one offensive star was always injured. Then the Celtics, which were rendered obsolete when James ran off to basically do the same thing they did, but with younger, better stars.
     
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  18. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I'm sorry but you've lost all credibility with this nonsense. Jordan never beat good teams? Are you serious? Let's run down the list; shall we?

    1991
    NY Knicks 39-43
    PHI 76ers 44-38
    DET Pistons 50-32
    LA Lakers 58-24

    1992
    MIA Heat 38-44
    NY Knicks 51-31
    CLE Cavs 57-25
    POR Trailblazers 57-25

    1993
    ATL Hawks 43-39
    CLE Cavs 54-28
    NY Knicks 60-22
    PHX Suns 62-20

    1996
    MIA Heat 42-40
    NY Knicks 47-35
    ORL Magic 60-22
    SEA Supersonics 64-18

    1997
    WAS Bullets 44-38
    ATL Hawks 56-26
    MIA Heat 61-21
    Utah Jazz 64-18

    1998
    NJ Nets 43-39
    CHA Hornets 51-31
    IND Pacers 58-24
    Utah Jazz 62-20

    Above I've listed every opponent that the bulls faced in the playoffs during their championship seasons. Still think they never played anyone? Let's see; they beat 16 teams during those runs that had won 50 or more games and of those 16 teams 7 won 60 or more games. Some of those 60 win teams where even in their own conference and yet they still ended up winning? How many 60 win teams has LeBron faced in the Eastern Conference? I'm tired of hearing that Jordan never had competition because the reverse is actually the truth. LeBron hasn't had competition in the Eastern Conference since Boston was good and that's been about 7 years. So anyone who says that Jordan didn't have competition clearly has no idea as to what they're talking about.
     
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  19. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    He might catch him in terms of numbers because of the age in which he started and longevity but not in terms of what Jordan DID for the NBA and the sport of basketball as a whole. He was THE face of the NBA during the globalization of the game in the 1990's. I was overseas during the early '90's and there was NO DOUBT he was the most popular player BY FAR eclipsing Larry and Magic by a wide margin. The internationalization of the game is a direct result of the popularity of Michael Jordan and why basketball is second only to soccer in terms of popularity internationally.

    In terms of "catching him" what Michael did the '90's is not possible to be caught by LeBron. 6 for 6 in NBA Finals speaks for itself and contrary to what was stated earlier it came at the expense of some of the greatest players and TEAMS of all time. The Blazers in '92, the Suns in '93, The Magic (with Penny and Shaq) and the Sonics (with Payton and Kemp) in '96, and of course the Jazz with Stockton and Malone in '97 and '98. He also defeated the Bad Boy Pistons in '91, The Ewing-led Knicks in '92 and '93, The Cavs with Nance, Price and Daugherty in 1992, the Miami Heat with Zo and Hardaway in '97 and of course the Pacers with Smits and Reggie Miller in 1998.

    LeBron can't match up to that competition. He lost to Dirk and the Mavs. He beat a YOUNG Thunder squad, I'll give him the Spurs (but they were at the end of their run with TD and Kawhi was just starting) and of course the win against the Warriors but he's had his ups and downs in the postseason.

    To me, what made Jordan GREAT was his CLUTCH performances when the chips were on the line. When watching Michael, you KNEW he was going to make a play or plays to win the game. He was so competitive and his drive was unreal. He took games over. I don't think there will be anyone to can catch MJ.
     
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  20. A11oftheLights

    A11oftheLights Getting Noticed By Management

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    Its not about wins or who they have on the teams, its about championship calibre teams. Jordan had to wait out the celtics and the Lakers before beating teams that werent as good. Lebron has beating the Celtics, the Warriors and the Spurs. His only ring that wasnt against a championship team was the Thunder. On top of this Lebron should have been the first unanimous mvp (steph shouldnt have even been a unanimous mvp anyway) and he would be if some bum journalist from boston wasnt salty and voted for carmelo
     
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  21. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Well the reason why they weren't championship teams was because of Jordan. He dominated for a decade. With LeBron there was more back and forth. If LeBron had been undefeated in the Finals like MJ neither the Spurs nor Warriors would have titles. That's what happened to the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz etc....you can't tell me with a straight face that the Knicks of the early to mid '90's or the Jazz were not championship-caliber teams. They were consistently in the discussion as far as championship contenders of their era they just ran in to Michael.
     
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  22. DaBadGuy

    DaBadGuy Occasional Pre-Show

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    In your last post you said he never faced any good teams though, and thats just false. And I would consider those Blazers, Suns, and Jazz teams championship caliber. The Blazers made it to WCF in 90 and 91 and to the Finals before facing Jordan the very next year, the Suns made it to the WCF twice in 88 and 89 they just couldn't get over the hump because they were lacking that one MVP caliber superstar, Charles Barkley was literally the missing piece to that team that season. Utah also made it to the WCF 3 times between 92-96 before finally making it to their first one. As I said in one of my post I can sort of agree with the Lakers even though Magic and Worthy were still relatively young and still playing great basketball, but that wasn't Showtime. And those Sonic teams were good and even made it to the WCF in 93, but they were inconsistent and had a tendency to shrink in the playoffs.

    And as far as Jordan having to wait for the Celtics and Lakers to get old before he started winning, that same argument can pretty much be made for LeBron to a degree. That Spurs team that he beat wasn't as good as the 05 or 07 Spurs. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili were all past 30 and their primes (with the exception of maybe Parker) and Kahwi was far from the player that he is today and was just in his second season. And those Celtic teams were just as old if not older than that Piston team that Jordan beat.
     
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  23. DaBadGuy

    DaBadGuy Occasional Pre-Show

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    Agreed though the Spurs already had 2 titles before LeBron even came into the league. And to be fair to LeBron there's a good chance he may have beaten Golden State in 2015 if he had Kyrie and Love for that series. That being said I guess it's only fair to acknowledge if not for the Draymond Green suspension and injuries to Bogut and Iggy the Warriors probably win it all last year. Anyway it goes. Anyway it goes if you take away all of the injuries and that suspension I still feel it would be 1-1 with a potential tiebreaker in the Finals.

    I digress though, I have to agree with you about the Knicks and Jazz. As a Rockets fan I can tell you that New York probably wins it all in 94 if Olajuwon doesn't block Starks shot at the end of Game 6 and Starks didn't lay an egg in Game 7, and don't even get me started on the battles we had with Utah and that shot Stockton hit against us in Game 6 of the WCF to eliminate us
     
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  24. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    I mean, Lebron came into the league 3-4 years younger than Jordan. He's going to play longer, and therefore he will pass him in some categories and accomplishments. He already has in some categories.

    As great as he is, that doesn't make him the better player. He's nowhere near the scorer that Mike was. He doesn't have nearly he late game offensive heroics that Mike had. To me it comes down to him not being nearly as good of a shooter off the dribble as Jordan. Mike could bang that pull-up jumper at any time. Lebron doesn't have that.
     
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  25. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    You're ignoring that Jordan didn't "wait out" the Lakers....he beat them for his first chip. Also beat two time champion Detroit along the way.

    So yeah, none of them had a "Spurs like" comeback where they retooled around 2-3 players with the same coach and won more championships 7 years later. I don't think that's a strike to hold against MJ. It's also not a strike against MJ that the Rockets never got back to the finals after winning 2 while MJ was playing baseball. It's not MJs fault those teams got old.

    Other than that, the Bulls were winning it every year so how could they even get the chance to play another champion in the playoffs? There WERENT other champions left in the league.

    It's not like they were beating bums. Those Portland and Phoenix teams were really, really good in the first 3 peat. Seattle too. Those teams were all better than 2011 Dallas that Lebron took an L too, and probably 2012 OKC too.
     
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