ESPN Posts List of 100 Greatest NBA Players: Lebron is 3rd!!!!

[SSJPhenom]

As my title says, ESPN.com has just recently posted it's list of the 100 greatest NBA players of all time. Their top 5 is Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LeBron James, Wilt Chamberlain, and Magic Johnson. Larry Bird was 6th and Tim Duncan was 8th. I know that LeBron is great and when his career is over, he might be one of the true greatest of all time, but has ESPN lost it's fucking mind?!?!?

As far as I'm concerned, LeBron doesn't even deserve to be in the top ten. The fact that they have him at 3rd above people like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, and even Kobe is beyond ridiculous. LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals and he only has 2 rings. Against guys like Russell with 11, Magic with 5, Kobe with 5, Duncan with 5, Bird with 3, and so on. I don't know what the people at ESPN are thinking, but he doesn't even deserve to be in the top ten yet, let alone the top 3.

What do you guys think? Does LeBron deserve to be that high on the list right now? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Nope, that's an easy one. He shouldn't be ranked number 3 at this point at all actually, he shouldn't be in the top 5 and if he's in the top 10 he should be at the tail end of it. It's not a knock against the guy, he's a great player but I can't in good conscience put him over someone like Kobe who won 5 rings and from a straight talent perspective can hang with LeBron just fine. I can't put him over someone like Tim Duncan either who also won 5 rings and has beaten LeBron twice in the finals and lastly I don't think I can put him over Larry Bird either given the clutch shots and performances that guy has put on.

I think LeBron is the best player in the NBA currently, he's easily one of the most complete players I've ever seen and he can get it done in damn near every statistical category. What he did in last years playoffs without Irving and Love was great, his game 6 against the Spurs in 2013 was remarkable so he definitely plenty of leverage to be on that list and by the time he retires I would be shocked if he wasn't on damn near everyone's top 5 list, but that's not today and there are plenty of players that in my mind deserve it more than LeBron at this point.

My biggest knock against LeBron is he's 2-6 in the finals and if Ray Allen didn't make a miraculous 3 in that same game 6 LeBron had a triple double then he would be 1-5 right now. I understand a lot of people hate using stats like that against players but it's such a monster statistic that in my mind really helps determine the true greatest. At the end of the day sports isn't about individual stats, it's about winning titles and for a list to be accurate you have to go with guys that lead their teams to titles which is why you have to have someone like Bill Russell on the top 10 list even if his individual stats aren't that great in many categories. LeBron is great because he's a player who can put a team on his back and hang with pretty much any team when he's on (which is all the time at this point) but the difference between a guy like LeBron and Michael is while LeBron will put your team in a position to win it all, Michael will just go out there and actually win it all.

When it's all said and done LeBron could overtake Michael, he was a top 5 NBA player by his 3rd season and he's upped his game significantly even since then but at this point there are better options for the top 5 or even the top 10.

 

[Slyfox696]

I think it's hilarious how stupid people seem incapable at looking at anything other than championship rings, as if team accomplishments are the only thing that matter when evaluating the quality of a player. The fact of the matter is LeBron is easily Top 5 and his position at 3rd is the lowest I would put him.

No one has carried a team like LeBron has proven he can do (that includes Jordan). LeBron has been to five straight NBA Finals, winning two of them. He's a 4 time MVP, multiple time Olympic gold medalist, and his abilities are literally one of a kind. People who say LeBron doesn't deserve his current position because his TEAM didn't perform well in the Finals (while conveniently ignoring that there has never been a superstar player who has won the NBA Finals every year he's played) are some of the dumbest sports fans in existence.

LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals and he only has 2 rings. Against guys like Russell with 11, Magic with 5, Kobe with 5, Duncan with 5, Bird with 3, and so on.

Using that logic, obviously Robert Horry and his 7 championships is a much better player than Larry Bird and his 3. I mean, that's just your logic.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Titles don't necessarily show who is the greatest player, I don't think anyone is saying that but when you're in a position to actually win an NBA title there are better options than LeBron James throughout history, there are players that could've (and probably would've) won 4 straight on that Miami Heat team LeBron was apart of, you put someone like Jordan or Magic Johnson on that team and they are going to win that title every year and I think their careers have proven that.

Take 2011 for example, his first year with the Heat. LeBron did not bring his A game to the NBA finals that year, he wasn't even the best player on his team as Dwayne Wade actually had a better series and there's no question Dirk played better. In 2014 Kawhi Leonard outplayed LeBron James in the NBA finals, not that his team did anything to help him that year, they didn't but Kawhi was clearly the better player that series.

You can't use just rings because how many great players have simply not had a team around them to even challenge for a title? More than I can count. Barry Sanders is one of the best RB's ever but never came close to a Superbowl because he was on a shit team, that's not Sanders fault and you can't expect him to do it all on his own just like you can't expect LeBron to do it all on his own.

When I think of who is truly the greatest player I ask myself 1 question. If I'm a head coach and I have a team in the NBA finals which player would I want to lead my team to victory and in my eyes there are better options than LeBron James. Guys like Jordan, Jabbar, Johnson, and Duncan are guys I would pick over LeBron in that situation.

You can't just use titles but on the same token that is the reason why people play professional sports and LeBron would be the 1st person to tell you that. The ultimate goal in professional sports is to win titles and that's why people put so much emphasis on it. Trent Dilfer will never be a better QB than Dan Marino but Marino would happily give all his records to have the ring that is on Dilfer's finger.

 

[Slyfox696]

Titles don't necessarily show who is the greatest player, I don't think anyone is saying that

Umm, sure they are. That was the crux of Phenom's position.

but when you're in a position to actually win an NBA title there are better options than LeBron James throughout history

You put Michael Jordan on either of the Cavaliers teams James took to the NBA Finals, and do you really think the Cavs do any better? Of course not.

there are players that could've (and probably would've) won 4 straight on that Miami Heat team LeBron was apart of, you put someone like Jordan or Magic Johnson on that team and they are going to win that title every year and I think their careers have proven that.

No, their careers didn't prove that (especially Johnson, who lost 4 NBA Finals). Their careers proved they could win the teammates they had and with the coaches they had against the competition available at the time. Ignoring for a second the Heat's first year saw them still trying to learn to play with each other and their last year featured the walking wounded, you still have to remember that Jordan still had Pippen, Grant, Rodman and Phil Jackson and Magic had Kareem, Worthy and Riley. LeBron had Wade (when he wasn't injured), Bosh and Spoelstra. Surely I'm not the only one who sees the disparity.

Take 2011 for example, his first year with the Heat. LeBron did not bring his A game to the NBA finals that year, he wasn't even the best player on his team as Dwayne Wade actually had a better series and there's no question Dirk played better. In 2014 Kawhi Leonard outplayed LeBron James in the NBA finals, not that his team did anything to help him that year, they didn't but Kawhi was clearly the better player that series.

LeBron James: 28 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 4.0 Ast, 2.0 Steals, .4 Blk
Kawhi Leonard: 17.8 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.0 Ast, 1.6 Steal, 1.2 Blk


How exactly was Leonard the better player in that series? And before you answer with something related to defense, remember LeBron shot 57% from the field and 52% from 3.

Once more, the argument rarely matches the facts.

You can't use just rings because how many great players have simply not had a team around them to even challenge for a title? More than I can count. Barry Sanders is one of the best RB's ever but never came close to a Superbowl because he was on a shit team, that's not Sanders fault and you can't expect him to do it all on his own just like you can't expect LeBron to do it all on his own.

Exactly. Even everyone's favorite, Michael Jordan, couldn't do what LeBron did, which was take a poorly coached team with a lack of talent around him to the NBA Finals.

If I'm a head coach and I have a team in the NBA finals which player would I want to lead my team to victory and in my eyes there are better options than LeBron James. Guys like Jordan, Jabbar, Johnson, and Duncan are guys I would pick over LeBron in that situation.

And when I read that, I think to myself "You really haven't put that much thought into it".

I'll start by eliminating Jabbar and Duncan. Not because they weren't great players, but the NBA simply doesn't revolve around big men any more. Like it or not, big men simply are out of place in today's game. So we're left with LeBron, Jordan and Johnson. We can agree both LeBron and Jordan are/were better defensive players than Johnson and that both LeBron and Johnson are more accomplished passers and more versatile in positions they can play. We also know other players would MUCH rather play with LeBron than Jordan.

So LeBron is a better defensive player than Johnson, a more accomplished passer than Jordan and other players literally flock to play with him. So all that's really left is the intangible quality of "leadership" and what it means to you. We can all agree the three guys lead in completely different ways, and I've yet to see it proven one way is better than another.

If I were starting a team tomorrow, to play for only one season, I'd have to decide between Jordan and LeBron. And, regardless of who I took, I think it's obvious LeBron is deserving of at least a Top 5 placement in this list.

You can't just use titles but on the same token that is the reason why people play professional sports and LeBron would be the 1st person to tell you that.

He'd also likely tell you he's only one part of a team and that no player is great enough to overcome deficiencies in other positions and coaching.

The ultimate goal in professional sports is to win titles and that's why people put so much emphasis on it. Trent Dilfer will never be a better QB than Dan Marino but Marino would happily give all his records to have the ring that is on Dilfer's finger.

It doesn't matter if Marino would give all his records for a ring, it will never change the fact Marino will always be a better QB than Dilfer was.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

It's hard to argue against. If it was greatest career I wouldn't put him top five but since we are talking greatest player (I see it to mean the same as best player) it is pretty safe to say LeBron is a lock in the top five, maybe as high as two. He has been pretty much the best player in the league for most of his career. Durant has pushed him and Curry may be knocking him off but his body of work has been awesome. He can do so many things so well and has done then both in the regular and post seasons.

He hasn't unseated Jordan, not as the greatest player and certainly not greatest career but as a player LeBron is still a beast who would wipe the floor with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

OK, maybe not wipe the floor but he is still better than those guys. But then again it is hard not to deduct points from LeBron for advances in technology, diet, and science.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Umm, sure they are. That was the crux of Phenom's position.

I really don't think that's what Phenom was getting at but since he really didn't say anything else to support any other claim I'll give you that one.

You put Michael Jordan on either of the Cavaliers teams James took to the NBA Finals, and do you really think the Cavs do any better? Of course not.

Not the Cavs teams but I have no problem saying the Miami Heat teams would have.

No, their careers didn't prove that. Their careers proved they could win the teammates they had and with the coaches they had against the competition available at the time. Ignoring for a second the Heat's first year saw them still trying to learn to play with each other and their last year featured the walking wounded, you still have to remember that Jordan still had Pippen, Grant, Rodman and Phil Jackson and Magic had Kareem, Worthy and Riley. LeBron had Wade (when he wasn't injured), Bosh and Spoelstra. Surely I'm not the only one who sees the disparity.

Magic and Jordan had arguably better teams but then again the Celtics of the 80's are better than any team LeBron has ever played (except for last year, you can't hold that against LeBron at all), same thing could be said about those Jazz teams Jordan beat, hell you could even say that about when the Bulls beat the Lakers in '91. When he beat the Spurs though I was incredibly impressed by LeBron's play, his play definitely bested a better overall team but you can say that about more players than LeBron. Kareem in the 70's took a Bucks team that was worst in the league and almost singlehandedly made them a championship team, Chamberlain's championship with the 76er's did something similar granted it took Wilt many years to get to that point. Not saying what LeBron did wasn't impressive, it was but there have been players who have won titles with teams a lot worse than the teams LeBron's had the last 5 seasons.

LeBron James: 28 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 4.0 Ast, 2.0 Steals, .4 Blk
Kawhi Leonard: 17.8 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.0 Ast, 1.6 Steal, 1.2 Blk


How exactly was Leonard the better player in that series? And before you answer with something related to defense, remember LeBron shot 57% from the field and 52% from 3.

Once more, the argument rarely matches the facts.

After game 2 the series was tied and both games were pretty tight from what I remembered. Once Leonard turned it on and started playing to the best of his ability the Spurs outright steamrolled the Heat, it wasn't even a contest after that point. It's not always about numbers. In '05-'06 Kobe had an 81 point game, averaged 38 points a game (I think that's what it was, might be a bit lower) and still wasn't MVP and rightfully so. He may have had the best numbers that year but it didn't change the fact Nash was clearly the most valuable player that season. Leonard was clearly more valuable than LeBron was in that series, he made his team much better than they were without him and that says more about a player than any stat ever could.

Exactly. Even everyone's favorite, Michael Jordan, couldn't do what LeBron did, which was take a poorly coached team with a lack of talent around him to the NBA Finals.

If Jordan wasn't playing one of the best teams in NBA history he would've done just that in 86-87. If he was playing any other team other than that Celtic team he would've done it no question that year considering the level he was playing at.

And when I read that, I think to myself "You really haven't put that much thought into it".

I'll start by eliminating Jabbar and Duncan. Not because they weren't great players, but the NBA simply doesn't revolve around big men any more. Like it or not, big men simply are out of place in today's game. So we're left with LeBron, Jordan and Johnson. We can agree both LeBron and Jordan are/were better defensive players than Johnson and that both LeBron and Johnson are more accomplished passers and more versatile in positions they can play. We also know other players would MUCH rather play with LeBron than Jordan.

It may not revolve around big men anymore but Duncan still amassed 5 titles, 2 regular season MVP awards and 3 Finals MVP awards and it wasn't too long ago he did that. Besides, you can't just say LeBron is greater because he grew up in an era that didn't revolve around big men, that doesn't somehow make him greater than guys like Jabbar and Duncan. Chances are Jabbar wouldn't be as dominant in this era but at the same time chances are James wouldn't be as dominant in Jabbar's era either. It's a different game and you can't use that against great big men.

So LeBron is a better defensive player than Johnson, a more accomplished passer than Jordan and other players literally flock to play with him. So all that's really left is the intangible quality of "leadership" and what it means to you. We can all agree the three guys lead in completely different ways, and I've yet to see it proven one way is better than another.

The way that's better is always going to be the way that's most successful and as a career you can't argue Johnson and Jordan had more success. Sure they had great teams and great coaches to get those better careers but they still had them.

If I were starting a team tomorrow, to play for only one season, I'd have to decide between Jordan and LeBron. And, regardless of who I took, I think it's obvious LeBron is deserving of at least a Top 5 placement in this list.

He'd also likely tell you he's only one part of a team and that no player is great enough to overcome deficiencies in other positions and coaching.

Fair enough in you'd choose between Jordan or LeBron, there are other guys I would take over LeBron though just as there are other guys besides Brady I'd take over Manning in such a situation. I have no problem saying I'd take a Tim Duncan, a Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a Michael Jordan or a Magic Johnson over LeBron if I'm going for a title.

LeBron has said no player is good enough to overcome certain deficiencies in a team, that's why he went to Miami in the 1st place. That's a fair statement, like I said in an earlier post you can't expect a great player to make a shit team great.

It doesn't matter if Marino would give all his records for a ring, it will never change the fact Marino will always be a better QB than Dilfer was.

No question about that. I'm just saying that individual stats really don't mean as much as titles do when it comes to true greatness. I know if I'm a coach or a player I could give 2 shits about any stat outside of how many rings I have gotten.


Understand at the end of the day I'm not saying LeBron isn't worthy of a top 5 spot, it would be insane to even argue against that given what he can do and has done as a player, I just know for my taste I can think of players that I would rather take if I was going for a title.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Slyfox, I really don't feel like arguing this topic. IIt's a subjective topic anyways.

Also, you were wrong about a player not winning every Finals that they've played in. Michael Jordan never lost after making it to the Finals and there are several others that never lost in the Finals. Unless you meant every year they've played in the league. Which I assume you did.

I think it's easy to hold some of those playoff and Finals losses against him especially when he's the best player on the floor. And I'm sure that everyone's favorite, Jordan, could've taken a poorly coached team with little talent to the Finals. Hell, even Iverson did that. I'm sorry, I just think that until his career is over he can't be fairly placed on a list like this. He might very well over take Jordan when it's all said and done. If we can't use accomplishments to judge one's success, then what do we use? If it's individual stats then Abdul-Jabbar should be first on the list easy.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Sly and I have disagreed on this topic multiple times. He's more of a by the numbers guy while I like to factor in other intangibles. I mean, if we're going off strictly stats, the fact that Oscar Robertson hasn't even been mentioned is a crime.

James ran off to go play with a top 5 guy in the league at the time and a top 20 guy because he couldn't hack it in Cleveland. That will always knock him down a peg for me. He showed he has absolutely no heart to me. He'd rather run to a team where he can let others do the heavy lifting for him. Sly has used the point that of course he went where he had a better team. I can't argue that it made logical sense. I can argue that he lost a lot of respect from a lot of people because as a person who labeled himself The King, The Chosen One, etc he basically admitted he wasn't enough.

I also hate the argument Jordan had Pippen, etc. He didn't run off to play with better players. They were either drafted or brought in.

But really, this era is hard to judge a lot of players. Too many super teams have been formed and it will drag down everyone's stats and abilities for the good of the team. The ironic part being that the best teams have been built the old fashioned way.

 

[Slyfox696]

Not the Cavs teams but I have no problem saying the Miami Heat teams would have.

I disagree with that as well.

Magic and Jordan had arguably better teams but then again the Celtics of the 80's are better than any team LeBron has ever played (except for last year, you can't hold that against LeBron at all),

And the Spurs from two years ago. That Spurs team was very very good and they really got hot in the Finals.

same thing could be said about those Jazz teams Jordan beat

Nah, those Jazz teams weren't that great. Obviously they were good, but for every team LeBron has lost to (Spurs, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors), I'd have the Jazz as the underdog in every one of those matchups.

hell you could even say that about when the Bulls beat the Lakers in '91.

A Lakers team with an aging Johnson and no Kareem.

When he beat the Spurs though I was incredibly impressed by LeBron's play, his play definitely bested a better overall team but you can say that about more players than LeBron. Kareem in the 70's took a Bucks team that was worst in the league and almost singlehandedly made them a championship team

Almost? You mean he couldn't do it until he teamed up with Oscar or Magic?

Chamberlain's championship with the 76er's did something similar granted it took Wilt many years to get to that point. Not saying what LeBron did wasn't impressive, it was but there have been players who have won titles with teams a lot worse than the teams LeBron's had the last 5 seasons.

Dwayne Wade could barely walk in 2014 and do I really need to remind you of the injuries to Irving and Love last year?

After game 2 the series was tied and both games were pretty tight from what I remembered. Once Leonard turned it on and started playing to the best of his ability the Spurs outright steamrolled the Heat, it wasn't even a contest after that point. It's not always about numbers.

Yes, it's also about the quality of the team around the player. But for you to say Leonard outplayed LeBron simply cannot be supported with facts, other than bringing back what I've been talking about when it comes to attributing team success to an individual.

Leonard was clearly more valuable than LeBron was in that series, he made his team much better than they were without him and that says more about a player than any stat ever could.

Just because the Spurs won, that did not mean he was more valuable. Are you really telling me that taking LeBron off the Heat wouldn't have made the shellacking much worse?

If Jordan wasn't playing one of the best teams in NBA history he would've done just that in 86-87. If he was playing any other team other than that Celtic team he would've done it no question that year considering the level he was playing at.

But he didn't...

So why do we excuse Jordan for not winning with an inferior team around him but not LeBron? Why is it Jordan losing year after year after year in the playoffs is somehow better than losing in the NBA Finals?

It may not revolve around big men anymore but Duncan still amassed 5 titles, 2 regular season MVP awards and 3 Finals MVP awards and it wasn't too long ago he did that.

He also was a rookie for one of those titles and nearly the age of 40 for another and wasn't the best player on the team for either.

Don't get me wrong, Tim Duncan is/was a great player. But today's game simply does not revolve around big men.

Besides, you can't just say LeBron is greater because he grew up in an era that didn't revolve around big men

Please go back and remember what YOU said and realize I'm not saying LeBron is greater because of when he played, but rather responding to whom one should start a team around for a championship.

The way that's better is always going to be the way that's most successful and as a career you can't argue Johnson and Jordan had more success. Sure they had great teams and great coaches to get those better careers but they still had them.

So Robert Horry is greater than Larry Bird because he had a far more successful career?

Because that's all you're really saying right now. LeBron's numbers are every bit as good as anyone in history, so basically you're using championships as your metric. So Robert Horry > Larry Bird, right?

No question about that. I'm just saying that individual stats really don't mean as much as titles do when it comes to true greatness.

Nonsense. That's the mentality which has so corrupted sports.

Greatness as an individual should never be considered hamstrung by greatness of the team around him. Dan Marino will always be considered one of the greatest of all time, despite the fact the team around him wasn't.

You need to stop comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing individuals, not teams. You're trying to judge individuals on the quality of their team and that makes as much sense as judging the quality of a car based on the second set of tires your mechanic put on it.

I know if I'm a coach or a player I could give 2 shits about any stat outside of how many rings I have gotten.

Then it sounds like Robert Horry is your man. I'll take Larry Bird.

Slyfox, I really don't feel like arguing this topic.

Smart move.

Also, you were wrong about a player not winning every Finals...Unless you meant every year they've played in the league. Which I assume you did.

I did. Even the great Celtic teams with Russel lost a couple of times. In the 15 seasons Jordan played, he didn't even make the Finals 9 of them.

I think it's easy to hold some of those playoff and Finals losses against him especially when he's the best player on the floor.

No offense intended, but do you realize how mind-numbingly stupid that comment is?

"Sure LeBron is the best player in the world, but we certainly can't blame any of his inferior teammates for the failings of the team."

And I'm sure that everyone's favorite, Jordan, could've taken a poorly coached team with little talent to the Finals.

He didn't.

9 seasons out of 15 Jordan didn't make the Finals.

If we can't use accomplishments to judge one's success

I never said you can't use accomplishments. I'm saying it's asinine to ONLY consider team accomplishments.

James ran off to go play with a top 5 guy in the league at the time and a top 20 guy because he couldn't hack it in Cleveland.

He took a team to the NBA Finals that two years later set a record for futility.

He could "hack it" just fine. It was his terrible teammates and terrible coach who could not.

He showed he has absolutely no heart to me. He'd rather run to a team where he can let others do the heavy lifting for him. Sly has used the point that of course he went where he had a better team. I can't argue that it made logical sense. I can argue that he lost a lot of respect from a lot of people because as a person who labeled himself The King, The Chosen One, etc he basically admitted he wasn't enough.

Only stupid people think an NBA player can win a championship 1 on 5. I know you're not stupid, so why would you think LeBron could win a championship on his own?

I also hate the argument Jordan had Pippen, etc. He didn't run off to play with better players. They were either drafted or brought in.

So Michael Jordan has more heart than LeBron James because the Chicago Bulls had better front office management?

 

[smizzy]

I don't think it's egregious at all to include LeBron James amongst the top 5 of all time. What's is egregious to me about ESPNs list is placing Curry in the top 25 of all time considering the small sample size.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't think it's egregious at all to include LeBron James amongst the top 5 of all time. What's is egregious to me about ESPNs list is placing Curry in the top 25 of all time considering the small sample size.

I completely agree. Obviously if Curry keeps playing the way he has the last two years, he'll skyrocket up the list. But, at the end of the day, we're talking about only a few years which put Curry in the Top 25, and for him to be ahead of guys like Elgin Baylor and Isiah Thomas, at this point, is a joke.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Sly I've mentioned many times that a guy like Robert Horry isn't going over a guy like Jordan, LeBron or Bird and I've said you can't say someone like Barry Sanders isn't one of the greatest RB's because he's on a shit Lions team so don't even go there with me. I've said plenty of times what LeBron did last year was amazing considering he didn't have Irving or Love so once again don't go down that road with me when I've flat out never held that against LeBron. With that said I will hold the 2011 finals against LeBron because he played half as good as he normally does and Dirk flat outplayed and outclassed him, do you ever remember that happening with Jordan? Or Johnson? Or Wilt? Their teams didn't always win (well Jordans did when he got to the finals) but they always brought their A game.

We're talking about individuals but we are also talking about individuals in a team sport, the individual accomplishments will never matter as much as the team accomplishments, it may not be fair but it's just true.

I'm not arguing LeBron isn't a great player or even a top 10 player GOAT because he is, there's no denying that but at this point I'm not putting him over guys like Jabbar, Duncan, Johnson or even Kobe, I'll happily take any of those guys over LeBron and I'm not wrong in thinking they could best LeBron if they were playing each other with similar teams because they most certainly can. LeBron would be a guy I'd pick if I wanted a contender but there are better options if you want a title.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly I've mentioned many times that a guy like Robert Horry isn't going over a guy like Jordan, LeBron or Bird

And you've also said:

I'm just saying that individual stats really don't mean as much as titles do when it comes to true greatness. I know if I'm a coach or a player I could give 2 shits about any stat outside of how many rings I have gotten.

We're talking about individuals but we are also talking about individuals in a team sport, the individual accomplishments will never matter as much as the team accomplishments, it may not be fair but it's just true.

But we're not comparing teams, we're comparing the greatness of players. If Michael Jordan had played for the Mavericks in the 80s and 90s and never sniffed the championship, he still would have been one of the greatest players of all time.

When comparing individuals, it's silly to compare team accomplishments. Or, at the very least, it's silly to use team accomplishments as a more important metric than their individual abilities.

I'm not arguing LeBron isn't a great player or even a top 10 player GOAT because he is, there's no denying that but at this point I'm not putting him over guys like Jabbar, Duncan, Johnson or even Kobe, I'll happily take any of those guys over LeBron and I'm not wrong in thinking they could best LeBron if they were playing each other with similar teams because they most certainly can. LeBron would be a guy I'd pick if I wanted a contender but there are better options if you want a title.

Wait...you would take Kobe over LeBron? Are you serious right now? The same Kobe who all but ran off Shaq, who took a massive contract knowing it would lead to the type of season they've had the last few years? You call that a winner?

This is what so frustrates me about LeBron conversations. It makes me look like a total LeBron homer because people say such blinded things. For whatever reason, people simply view LeBron differently than they view others, holding against LeBron things they never hold against others. Tim Duncan has played 18 seasons and has done so with some of the best players in the game and one of the greatest coaches of all time, yet he hasn't won the championship in 13 of those seasons. Why do we say he isn't a winner? Kobe Bryant had arguably the greatest coach of all time, and still ran off Shaq just so he could be the main player on an above average team. Why do we say he isn't a winner?

The fact is people just LeBron for things they don't judge others for. I have never figured out why.

 

[SSJPhenom]

It's probably because before he ever even picked up a ball in the NBA he was being called great and the next Jordan and the like. I guess NBA fans do hold LeBron to stricter standards, but honestly he brought it on himself. Wearing number 23, being called the next Jordan or Magic and stuff. So yea, he is unfairly judged at this point.

You've done a great job of advocating for LeBron, but in your last post I took issue with one statement. You said that if Jordan had have played for the Mavericks and never sniffed a title, he would still be one of the greatest of all time. That may be true, but I guarantee that if he never did win a title he wouldn't be in the top ten. He would probably be remembered as a great scorer along the lines of an Allen Iverson or something. Whether you like it or not, team accomplishments do matter an awful lot when judging the greatness of individual players. If they didn't, then again I say that Abdul-Jabbar should've been first on the list no questions asked. Highest total points, most all star selections, 6 MVPs, 6 titles, etc. Also, if we're supposed to hold individual accomplishments higher than team accomplishments then where the hell is Oscar Robertson in this discussion? The only man to ever average a triple double for an entire season.

Active players just can't be fairly put on a list like this, unless of course they're in the last legs of their careers.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Jordan may be high on the list but if be doesn't get the 6 rings I guarantee he isn't #1 or even in the top 5. Why? Because whether you want to admit it or not team accomplishments coupled with individual accomplishments is what makes a great player, team success matiers alot. I dont hold that against guys like Sanders because no one could overcome that mess but if you got a decent team you better have team accomplishments to make your case as a great player. If a random a player is averaging 35 points his whole career but only had 30 win seasons he is never going to be in the top 10, that's just the facts of sports. This ain't 1 on 1 street ball afterall.

Say what you want about Kobe and him running Shaq off but he still had back to back titles without him, he still was an integral part of the Laker dynasty, he's still one of the best players of the last 25 years. Christian Laettner drove numerous players off Duke, frankly he pissed off anyone but he's still easily a top 5 player when it comes to college basketball. So what if Kobe stayed on the Lakers to get a payday? It doesn't take away from his greatness and the fact at this point he's had a greater career than LeBron.

Besides, I've never said LeBron ain't a winner, I just said he's 2-4 in the playoffs and there has been instances when he didn't bring his A game with him to the playoffs, those are facts that can't be argued. Honestly all my doubts against LeBron went away in 2013 when he played on an insane level against the Spurs (so much I made a song about it because I was that impressed).

Even though I've said things that point to me doin that truth be told I really don't feel that way, the fans touted him as the next Jordan before his 1st game, that ain't LeBrons fault and if anything he should be praised for living up to that expectation in many ways. He had so much more to live up to than any player in the last 25 years and he's done amazing considering. At the end of the day I don't have an issue with LeBron ranked 3, he just wouldn't be 3 on my list, that's all.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Sly and I have disagreed on this topic multiple times. He's more of a by the numbers guy while I like to factor in other intangibles. I mean, if we're going off strictly stats, the fact that Oscar Robertson hasn't even been mentioned is a crime.

James ran off to go play with a top 5 guy in the league at the time and a top 20 guy because he couldn't hack it in Cleveland. That will always knock him down a peg for me. He showed he has absolutely no heart to me. He'd rather run to a team where he can let others do the heavy lifting for him. Sly has used the point that of course he went where he had a better team. I can't argue that it made logical sense. I can argue that he lost a lot of respect from a lot of people because as a person who labeled himself The King, The Chosen One, etc he basically admitted he wasn't enough.

I also hate the argument Jordan had Pippen, etc. He didn't run off to play with better players. They were either drafted or brought in.

But really, this era is hard to judge a lot of players. Too many super teams have been formed and it will drag down everyone's stats and abilities for the good of the team. The ironic part being that the best teams have been built the old fashioned way.

Anyone who says Lebron James couldn't hack it in Cleveland before he ran off to Miami clearly doesn't have a clue. Lebron wanted a championship. It was clear the owner at the time had no intention of doing that. Now back on topic. I would put Lebron in the top 5 any day of the week. The things he can do are up there with Kobe and Jordan and it clearly shows each and every day he plays. To say otherwise does King James a disservice.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

While maybe my wording was poor when I said James "couldn't hack it in Cleveland", I would've hoped you guys would understand that I wasn't saying he was bad. We're discussing whether he should be considered top 5 all time. Clearly he has something going for him in basketball skills.

And I would never compare him to Jordan or Kobe. He's got Magic's skills in spades.