Wrestlezone Tournament Discussion

[Mighty NorCal]

hm, so how does that work would there be some sort of vote/point bonus, wereas becuase Vader won by so much in the prior round that he has an actual numerical advantage in voting?? I mean I know this is supposed to be about people voting thru who they think is the best, but it would be kinda cool influence the KOR style tourney could have. A big win bonus, I think, would represent the extra fatigue/lack there of, in comparison of a big win to a tough win.

 

[Shocky]

Well in theory you would hope that someone would take into consideration that (example) Vader dominates RVD and Savage and Triple H had a long drawn out afair. You would take into consideration that, depending on percentage of victory, that Vader is going to be relatively fresh when facing the winner of a closely contested matchup like Savage vs. Triple H.

However, you must also take into consideration people with past experience in tournament atmospheres.

I give you a hypothetical Elite 8 based on the current standings. HBK vs. Benoit, The Big Show vs. the Undertaker, Randy Savage vs. Triple H, and RVD vs. Big Van Vader. Out of those 8, you would assume that based upon physical conditioning, a guy like Big Show or Vader is going to have to get two fairly convincing victories to be a legit threat in the end of the tournament. It's the nature of teh "last Night" status that the tournament comes to.

Guys like Michaels, Benoit, Savage and Triple H are conditioned well enough to go far. But then you can break it down even further, who has thrived in tournament situations before. Benoit made it to the finals of a tournament to decide the champion of the vacated wCw title. Triple H was a former king of the ring, and you have Randy Savage who won a Title Tournament at Wrestlemania 4 and a King of the Ring.

There are a ton of factors to factor into the last few rounds. I could make a certain, "this person must makeup a percentage to win this match". I trust that people are smart enough to factor in everything.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Toy give people too much credit shocky LOL. Remember the vast majority of votes casted arent even accompanied by people giving their reasoning. Kane beat Bret Hart for goodness sakes. I think Fanboyism is very strong, and a makeup this percentage clause could help iron some of that out I think, becuase I just dont belive that everyone will fairly take the KOR style matches into account. Myabe just something to think about in the future, we will see how this one goes.

 

[Shocky]

We're about to get started with the Regional Finals, just a quick note, due to what appears to be overwhelming support, at least from teh most active participants, I will be implementing the discussion then voting procedure. So the polls will be closed for 48 hours to inspire discussion instead of "blind" voting. We'll give it a test run.

 

[Dan1708]

IMO there should not be tactical voting as it is unfair and not democratic.

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

IMO there should not be tactical voting as it is unfair and not democratic.

I am guessing that this is directed towards me in my previous RVD vs Vader post. I never read anything in the rules that said strategic votes are not allowed so I assume there is no problem with it. Different people vote differently, that is how it has always been in this tournament, some people base their vote on who they like more, some base it on who is the better wrestler overall and etc. This situation is no different IMO, if it is going to cause a huge commotion then I will never bring up the idea again if that is what Shockmaster wants, we need his opinion on the subject first to make it official.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I thought the entire point of the tournament was to vote for who you think should win and so the results would be realistic. What you suggest completely goes against that, it's voting to give other wrestlers an advantage, instead of voting for who think would be the winner. As you've already said, you believe Vader would destroy RVD. By voting differently, you'd take away the entire point of the tourney.

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

I thought the entire point of the tournament was to vote for who you think should win and so the results would be realistic. What you suggest completely goes against that, it's voting to give other wrestlers an advantage, instead of voting for who think would be the winner. As you've already said, you believe Vader would destroy RVD. By voting differently, you'd take away the entire point of the tourney.

Well, of course you're going to say that, you are a supporter of Vader, obviously making you biased. He is going to win by a large margin of votes anyway, so that makes my vote feel worthless if I side with him, my vote will mean more if I side with RVD and give him the benefit of a doubt, he already beat The Rock and Kurt Angle, so he deserves some votes to help wear down Vader. I just want a less predictable outcome in the next round when he takes on Savage or HHH, so that they stand a chance against him and people can't say "Vader took out RVD easily without breaking a sweat, so he will pulverize HHH/Savage in under two minutes!"

Yes, I did say that Vader will destroy RVD, but I also said that Rob will get his spots in as well, that has to count as something towards wearing down Vader. Also, you know damn well that everybody didn't base their votes on who is actually the better wrestler(or who has the advantage), most people based it on who they like more, so that also takes away the entire point of the tournament as well, doesn't it?

 

[Shocky]

Well, unfortunately we see this going on in real primaries. Republicans voting on Democratic ballots for Hillary Clinton because they Feel McCain can beat Hilary, but not Obama. It's not right, but it is done.

I think the tactical voting shouldn't happen, but it's the individuals rights as a voter. Hell, only 25% of the people that vote in this thing vote silently without giving reasons, Skullz just gave a reason, even though people don't like it. In my opinion, it's his vote, he can do what he likes with it. I imagine that there will be a fair amount of votes not voting for Benoit due to the Murders, it happens.

As far as Vader squashing RVD and facing Triple H or Savage, I wouldn't necessarily call it a walk in the park the next round either. Savage and Trips can hang with Vader, even with them wrestling a helluva match. There both going to get their votes in that match as well. The whole point is, convince me why you're voting that way. Skullz can come up with a scenario as to why RVD beats Vader.

 

[Dan1708]

Just look at what Kane did to vader, everything Kane could to, im sure The undertaker can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftSGs5MpsZo

The undertaker > Vader by far.

 

[Dan1708]

oh Skullz, i just saw your post now, i was't directing anything against anyone personally. I was just making an over all point.

I think a way to may tournaments in the future better, is to Make people give reasons why they think their voted wrestler should win, and anyone who doesn't, their votes will not count, and to add effiency if they keep doing it, they deserve a red rep. This will not only (possibly) bring an end to tactical voting but the most important part is, it will improve the quality by tons.
Like that 48 hour rule was a good idea.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Just look at what Kane did to vader, everything Kane could to, im sure The undertaker can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftSGs5MpsZo

The undertaker > Vader by far.

I am not exactly concerned about this match. I am actually shocked it wasn't brought up before now. The fact is, later in his WWF career, Vader was made to job to main eventers, much the way Umaga does now and to a lesser extent Khali. Vader became a victim of Vince McMahon's booking philosophy, where if he doesn't discover you, he wants little part of you. Vader also jobbed to Bradshaw on a Raw. That's a big reason why Vader left WWF and went back to Japan, where he remains a legend to this day.

Another reason why this video that you bring up is 100% pure unadulterated CRAP is because we are taking these men in their PRIMES. Vader didn't lose to Kane in a mask vs mask match in Vader's prime.

In his prime, Vader dropped the great Antonio Inoki, CLEANLY, in less than 5 minutes at the Sumo Hall. He annihilated Sting in a strap match, took out Cactus Jack twice, and kicked out of the vaunted Hulk Hogan leg drop at a count of one - the only man ever to do so.

Undertaker, in his prime was either a) too slow, or b) a mid-carded feuding with marginal superheavyweights such as Kamala or Giant Gonzales. I love and respect the man, but I really feel Vader is a notch higher, and for Taker to even get to Vader, he has to go through Big Show and either HBK or Benoit.

 

[Dan1708]

I don't understand, you contradict yourself heavily

You say we are taking these men in their primes right?

Then why are you trying to picture an early Undertaker in the early 90's when he certainly wasn’t in his PRIME at that time.

And the word PRIME means, when they were the BEST in their career.

1995 – 1999 was the Undertaker’s Prime, if you look at what he accomplished and did, Vader can’t hold a candle to it.

What people don’t understand is people like the Undertaker were the catalysts of the attitude era, which is probably the best period of wrestling in history.

Even after the year 2000 you can still argue and say ‘No the Undertaker is in his PRIME now’ and it’s damn plausible!

Everyone Knows that the first 5-6 years of The undertakers career was crap, however you contradict yourself again!!!! By using this against the undertaker, when you tried to defend Vader with McMahon’s horrible booking, which I agree with by the way. Taker in his early career was booked that very way, not to mention wrestling then was slow as hell anyway.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Nothing contradictory at all here, we just look at The Undertaker in terms of two different primes. If you feel his prime came around Wrestlemania 13 and after, into his Hell in a Cell feud with Michaels and Foley, ok cool. Make that case then. A lot of Taker fans I talk to see his prime as either his first few years as a walking choke hold because he was essentially dominant and couldn't be hurt, or wen he started coming into his own as a face. If you have a case to state, well, go ahead and state it. But don't accuse me of being contradictory - I know when Vader's prime was and I am approaching this as such.

 

[Dan1708]

Well arguing about this ‘particular’ isn’t going to go anywhere, and im not going to able to change your mine and nether will you do the same to me.
However, how do you think the match Undertaker vs. Vader will play out?
Personally I would think Vader would dominate early on, however The undertaker would keep getting up and not tire and eventually put him down in the end with 3 Tombstones like he did Kane at Wrestlemania, or possibly with his new submission move.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Shocky do you SEE what is going on right now?? I told ya we needed a vote bonus to emphasize the KOR element, becuase people are ignoring and voting for their favorites. An atrocity.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm completely disgusted by the fact that people are apparently too ignorant to listen to the setting of the entire match. Seriously, how the hell is Undertaker that f*cking far ahead in the polls?

Furthermore, is there even a reason why people haven't factored in that Vader would be literally trying to suck air through a straw by now? The man had a match against Rob Van Dam to advance. You fully realize that while even under normal rules, Vader could've pulled out the upset, R.V.D. is no push over.

That being said I agree that Savage after going through Triple H. in the first round would be almost on "E" as well. However Savage has always had a ton of stamina and has always had the ability to take a tremendous beating, yet still fight through it. You also can't forget the crowd setting. Come on, why would anyone in Savage's home state cheer AGAINST him?

As far as the Shawn Michaels/Undertaker match goes. Its completely outrageous. Noone stated whether or not this was the Undertaker from yesteryear, or if it was the Undertaker of today. And believe me, there is a HUGE f*cking difference. The Undertaker of yesteryear may very easily destroy Shawn Michaels, because that Taker never showed signs of weakness or tiredness.

However the Undertaker of today, is definately NOT what he was then. The Taker of today tires easily, and after going through a brutual brawl with the Big Show, would be very easily winded.

Granted, Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit would've likely went toe to toe, with the ending (as I think Jake mentioned) being something as quickly as a roll-up. However, H.B.K. has always carried the same effects of a Randy Savage in knowing he doesn't back down from bigger men. He tires, but always finds numerous winds within him, and the most important factor of all. Shawn Michaels simply doesn't know when to quit.

And as I've said, short of it being on a Wrestlemania sized scale, the Undertaker would easily be defeated because he merely doesn't try, nor does he seem to care outside of that one event.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'm completely disgusted by the fact that people are apparently too ignorant to listen to the setting of the entire match. Seriously, how the hell is Undertaker that f*cking far ahead in the polls?

Read through the threads, Will. I know if you read through the Undertaker one, you'd have found many reasons why the Undertaker is so dominant.

Furthermore, is there even a reason why people haven't factored in that Vader would be literally trying to suck air through a straw by now? The man had a match against Rob Van Dam to advance. You fully realize that while even under normal rules, Vader could've pulled out the upset, R.V.D. is no push over.

Because Vader would not be that winded or worn out, have you read IC25's posts either?

That being said I agree that Savage after going through Triple H. in the first round would be almost on "E" as well. However Savage has always had a ton of stamina and has always had the ability to take a tremendous beating, yet still fight through it. You also can't forget the crowd setting. Come on, why would anyone in Savage's home state cheer AGAINST him?

It's a fair point, but I don't think the crowd would factor in enough for Savage to overcome the obvious disadvantages he's facing against.

As far as the Shawn Michaels/Undertaker match goes. Its completely outrageous. Noone stated whether or not this was the Undertaker from yesteryear, or if it was the Undertaker of today. And believe me, there is a HUGE f*cking difference. The Undertaker of yesteryear may very easily destroy Shawn Michaels, because that Taker never showed signs of weakness or tiredness.

It's already been mentioned multiple times this is The Undertaker in his prime, and as such in all probability is the Taker of yesteryear, although I for one feel that is mildly debatable.

However the Undertaker of today, is definately NOT what he was then. The Taker of today tires easily, and after going through a brutual brawl with the Big Show, would be very easily winded.

I disagree with that, although it's irrelevant.

Granted, Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit would've likely went toe to toe, with the ending (as I think Jake mentioned) being something as quickly as a roll-up. However, H.B.K. has always carried the same effects of a Randy Savage in knowing he doesn't back down from bigger men. He tires, but always finds numerous winds within him, and the most important factor of all. Shawn Michaels simply doesn't know when to quit.

I just follow the numbers. The numbers show what happened, and the numbers show Undertaker had a far easier match if nothing else does.

And as I've said, short of it being on a Wrestlemania sized scale, the Undertaker would easily be defeated because he merely doesn't try, nor does he seem to care outside of that one event.

The emotionless guy that rarely does anything but grimace? Have you ever seen an Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels match? The HIAC one hasn't been described vividly enough - The Undertaker sat up roughly... two seconds after being hit with a Sweet Chin music, dominated 80% of the match, threw Michaels through an announce table and had just undoubtedly finished Michaels off with a stiff, stiff steal chair shot when Kane rudely interrupted. He was lucky he had the energy to roll his arm onto Undertaker after Kane had done his dirty work for him. God knows he could barely move and had to be carried from the ring.

 

[Slim Pickns]

One thing the HBK supporters have to realize is that the way Shocky set up the Elite Eight was King of the Ring style. All of these matches are in the same night. Now, another thing that was discussed is that the polls determine how hard the match was. Taker had a pretty easy time with Show, while HBK had a hard match with Benoit. Sam has already said it 20 times, but Taker has a 25% advantage. The HBK supporters are simply disregarding this fact.

it also seems that the HBK supporters a greatly discrediting one of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time, The Undertaker. No one hardly ever says anything bad about the guy, then he goes against your golden boy and is all the sudden slow and boring. Can you honestly not see why any of us think the Taker can beat Michaels, especially with a 25% advantage?

Finally we are taking these two in there primes. This means that the argument of HBK still putting on great matches today is void. It is also completely untrue. If we were taking today, Taker would squash HBK. The fact that so many people think Michaels' matches in 2007 were amazing shows how much people blindly think everything he does is golden.

Taker beats Michaels here, deal with it.

 

[Shocky]

After a nearly four month process, 256 wrestlers, 255 matches, and a helluva lot of posting, we have now, our official winner of the 2nd Annual Wrestlezone Tournament.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Undertaker has won this years Wrestlezone Tournament.

I would like to thank everyone that voted, everyone that participated in any ways. I'm glad to see this thing get a life of his own. Thanks to all of the people that turned the LD into a Campaign headquarters for various wrestlers.

As I said in the first post of this thread, Thanks to RVD Gurl, IrishCanadian25, Mr. Sam, Y2Jake, Death is a Right, Theonebigwill, Skullzcrackem, Shadowmancer, Justinsayne, HBK&Triple H (Teddy Harted) , and Colamania (Prisoner), plus the Shockmaster, that no good bastard. Green Rep these guys, because without them, this tournament wouldn't get done. These are the people that took the time to nominate wrestlers for this years tournament, so a lot of the props go to them.

Now to thank the countless list of people that posted, and I'm sure I'm going to miss plenty, so if I did, sorry in advance. First of all, the tournament MVP is no other then IrishCanadian25. This guy took it to heart, got Big Van Vader, for better or for worse, within 4 votes of making it into the finals. Without his campaigning, this tournament could have become very dull very quickly.

Of course Mr. Sam, Mighty Norcal, Skullz, XFear, Jake, Sly, Justin, Wes, Tarp, Will, HBKaholic contributed a ton as well. I know I missed some, but I'm thinking off the top of my head.

So anyways, thank you guys, without the discussion and debates, this wouldn't be worth it and I probably wouldn't do anymore. As the same for last year, there is always room for improvement, so the official suggestions thread needs your input. Thanx again, and see you again next year for the Wrestlezone Tournament 3.

Also, keep an eye out for the Official Wrestlezone Women's Tournament, brought to you by the person who used to be known as Echelon. Also, the Wrestlezone Battle of the Bands Tournament is being formed now in the Music subsection.

 

[tarp]

Thanks once again Shockey. This was truly fun particiapating in. It's hard to find the time to come in here reguarly but I find the time during the touranment. While I liked the outcome of last years better (Natich) in the finals I do think the discussion was better this year. Take care and see you all next year. Be sure to root the tarheels on for the championship! Please dont give me an infraction I just needed to say that.