Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Dowdsy McDowds]

I always thought that Doran was a bit girthier than the dude they've cast.

High Sparrow casting is brilliant though. I'm glad they're keeping the kindly man casting under-wraps for now and, while unlikely, if they never reveal him until the show starts then I wouldn't be upset.

 

[Барбоса]

I always thought that Doran was a bit girthier than the dude they've cast.

It is a simple bit of make up to make Doctor Bashir look like the wheelchair bound, gouty Prince Doran.

For me, it was more important to get an actor who could portray a seeming invalid, overtaken by events and looked down on by his family but in reality, an arch schemer who has Dorne completely under his sway, has his family largely controlled and masterminding revenge and regime change that stretches across continents.

I actually think that Doran has been underused in the books.

 

[Miko]

Yeah, he's boring. I admire his thinking, putting personal revenge to one side for the sake of his people (you hear that Robb Stark? You silly douche) but it doesn't make for good reading, and seeing how all the other Martells have failed epically (looking at you Arrianne (cut) Quentyn (cut) and Oberyn) I don't hold out high hopes.

"I've been plotting the downfall of Tywin Lannister ever since they bought me news of Ellia and her children." Except that now Tywin is dead and his legacy in tatters, and Doran played no part in that. Basically, he needs to do some serious work in the next book or he's a bust.

No Arrianne or Quentyn is daunting though, and no Ironborn confirmation either, though we still have plenty of time. On the plus side, Jonathon Price is going to rock that role, and more Stannis confirmed for next season, they said he's fascinating. Whatever, at least unlike Doran Stannis fucking gets shit done, even if he can be a tremendous douche about it.

 

[Барбоса]

The amount of butthurt I have seen about the lack of Greyjoys and other Martells etc. has been astounding, like that video has given ALL of the new characters for season 5 rather than just some.

As for Doran, GRRM really could have done so much more with him (he might yet). He could have been the real power behind Illyrio and Varys. He could have been a secret ally to Olenna in the poisoning of Joffery or having secretly answered Stannis' call to arms or funding the Greyjoys to destablise Westeros for a Targaryen/Martell invasion; maybe he could have been giving the orders to Varys to help Tyrion escape.

Actually have him doing something to bring down Tywin rather than just say it.

Something.

Anything.

Right now in the books, he has been all talk aside from his doomed plans for Arianne and Quentyn and the arrival of the Golden Company.

I would level a similar accusation at the Sand Snakes - they have been completely useless, while Arianne might as well be a younger, less powerful version of Cersei - cunning and bold but ultimately lacking in taking in the big picture (I still want a scene in the book/show when Cersei finally realises - likely just before her death - that rather than being the female version of her father, she is in fact the female version of the man she hated most - Robert Baratheon).

Lena Heady vs Jonathan Pryce could be sensational though.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Doran is a limp dick motherfucker.

 

[Miko]

The amount of butthurt I have seen about the lack of Greyjoys and other Martells etc. has been astounding, like that video has given ALL of the new characters for season 5 rather than just some.

Trystane is heir to Dorne apparently, that completely removes the need for Quentyn and Arrianne, they've gone the way of Willas and Garlan Tyrell I reckon. Aeron Greyjoy is fucking boring, but I do hope the Greyjoy storyline does actually get cast, Victarion is stupid and dull, like Areo Hotah but again, actually fucking entertaining because he's so unintentionally funny. But Daario has captured all those ships in the show, so I reckon that might play the role of the Iron Fleet in later Dance.

As for Doran, GRRM really could have done so much more with him (he might yet). He could have been the real power behind Illyrio and Varys. He could have been a secret ally to Olenna in the poisoning of Joffery or having secretly answered Stannis' call to arms or funding the Greyjoys to destablise Westeros for a Targaryen/Martell invasion; maybe he could have been giving the orders to Varys to help Tyrion escape.

Actually have him doing something to bring down Tywin rather than just say it.

Something.

Anything.

Right now in the books, he has been all talk aside from his doomed plans for Arianne and Quentyn and the arrival of the Golden Company.

Doran, too busy looking at naked children to get up and do anything useful, takes him 15 years to get around and do what Tyrion did in 5 minutes. As one of the supposed supreme plotters, he's fucking shit at plotting. Not to mention half his family is getting themselves killed because they're so bored waiting, waiting and waiting for him to get his shit together.

I would level a similar accusation at the Sand Snakes - they have been completely useless, while Arianne might as well be a younger, less powerful version of Cersei - cunning and bold but ultimately lacking in taking in the big picture (I still want a scene in the book/show when Cersei finally realises - likely just before her death - that rather than being the female version of her father, she is in fact the female version of the man she hated most - Robert Baratheon).

Lena Heady vs Jonathan Pryce could be sensational though.

Cersei is hilarious, she is Daenerys level of incompetent except that unlike Daenerys she is entertaining. But yeah, drinking, fucking and getting fat, she is definitely Robert.

Doran is a limp dick motherfucker.

Ch'yeah.

 

[Alastor]

When I first read about the character I thought Doran was one that avoided conflict to protect his people until the reveal that he planned on taking revenge for his sister. That just killed the character for me. Useless plotting for 15 years only to have a dwarf kill his own father robbing him of taking revenge for his sister. Unless of course his whole aim is to win the game of thrones and using the death of his sister to keep Oberyn and later on the sandsnakes in check. That is the only way I see that can redeem him as a ruthless scheming character.

The potential cutting of Arianne to be replaced by her brother is a minus for me as it remove a great female character. But her role in the grand scheme of things in the books so far can basically be replaced by Trystane who although still unseen is already established in the show. Make Myrecella Queen to win the Dornish to his claim to rule. Almost get her killed. Repent. Make her lie to hide the truth. All can be done by Trystane. Of course I hope I am wrong because I like the Arianne character but I can see a reason why she might be cut.

As for the GreyJoys, fuck them. They are just pirates so far in the books to get Loras Tyrell hurt and make Cercei look like a fool. Replace them with some other band of bandits and the story moves along just fine.

 

[Барбоса]

While the Greyjoy threat to the Arbor and the Reach is involved in the bloodbath at Dragonstone and Aurane Waters' absconding with the fleet, I would not say that that was their only involvement.

While the Kingsmoot might be left out, the Ironborn are still in control of large sections of the western regions of the North - Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square and probably other sections of the Rills and Stony Shore - so it is quite possible that we could see them fighting Boltons or even Stannis.

And as already mentioned, it is unlikely that that video included all of the new characters for Season 5.

Personally, I am still waiting for the only man who can approach Stannis Baratheon in character - Randyll Tarly - "the finest soldier in the realm."

 

[Alastor]

The thing is almost everything that are interesting involving the Ironborn are mere speculations. Their interaction with the established characters and regions in the show are near zero to be worth all the fuss from the book fandom. I think waiting for the next book to see more of their stories before casting them would be better than whatever they have from feast and dance at the moment.

Them fighting the Boltons and Stannis would divert even more from the main story no? IIRC only Asha had any contact with them.

Arianne I can understand the fuss since her story provide another point of view of gender politics in Westeros. Maybe the writers will make Trystane gay and mindfuck us all if they want him to take up ALL of Arianne's part in the story.

 

[Miko]

Personally, I am still waiting for the only man who can approach Stannis Baratheon in character - Randyll Tarly - "the finest soldier in the realm."

Don't see any Randyll the Mandyll memes about.

 

[Барбоса]

He doesn't stand still long enough to get a photo taken.

Too busy soldiering.

 

[Miko]

Does anyone actually call Randyll that? I always though he was just a standard good soldier, "detract the amount of our casualties from their casualties and if the number stays positive, no matter how messy the bloodbath, then we've won!" I suppose he did beat an over-reach(Har!)ing Robert Baratheon once. Little evidence that he has any of the war winning brilliance of Tywin, Robert or Stannis Baratheon, though, or maybe even the Young Wolf, who I always think was lucky he was martyred when he was, for the sake of his reputation, at least.

I mean, Renly had Randyll on side, and even then Tywin considers Stannis the greatest threat of all.

 

[Барбоса]

Kevan Lannister proclaims Tarly "the finest soldier in the realm" in AFFC after the death of Tywin.

But then you could argue that soldiers do not win wars; their leaders do. And that is the main difference between Stannis and Randyll - although essentially the same person at the start of the series, Stannis has gradually learned how to be a leader, while Randyll is stuck being a follower of orders.

Having said that, Tarly's rise to prominence in ADWD could change things, although he still remains Mace Tyrell's man and much like Stannis seems to have too much loyalty to the accepted way of things to challenge that. Indeed, he will likely fall in some ill-advised strike on Aegon's positions in Griffin's Roost or Storm's End (orchestraed by Cersei to get rid of him), even though he knows that it is suicide.

 

[Miko]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Kevan notes that Randyll is by far the more dangerous as well, out of he and Mace, good memory.

Randyll is what you get when you take Stannis and remove his winning personality and nice points. On the other hand, Randyll does seem more dutiful, happy to let Mace take all the credit for his dirty work and losing his own claim to Brightwater in favour of Garlan, while Stannis on the other hand whines about every slight. I suppose it all depends on whether you think Stannis was a cynical bastard waiting for Robert to die on Dragonstone so he could finally have his moment or if he was simply a nicer, more accomplished Randyll thrust into the limelight.

Show Stannis simplifies things a bit, since he has no idea of the incest. Somehow though, I can't see Randyll keeping info like that quiet for that long. I dunno, because of the show I tend to forgive book Stannis a bit, but it does throw that whole "dutiful Robot" thing into question, and is coincidentally why Stannis has grown and Randyll hasn't.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

Kevan Lannister proclaims Tarly "the finest soldier in the realm" in AFFC after the death of Tywin.

But then you could argue that soldiers do not win wars; their leaders do. And that is the main difference between Stannis and Randyll - although essentially the same person at the start of the series, Stannis has gradually learned how to be a leader, while Randyll is stuck being a follower of orders.

I think it's a balancing act really isn't it? I mean Robb and Daenerys effectively became cults of personality as leaders (with such monikers as the Young Wolf and Mother of Dragons, that's intimidating shit) but their inexperience at the actual Game has cost them big time.

Tarly is a tough bastard but I don't see him as much more than that. A soldier is the sword; the leader is the wielder.

I'm quite a Stannis fan. I think he'd be actually good as king provided Mel's influence doesn't piss off other lords to the point of rebellion.

 

[Miko]

I'm quite a Stannis fan.

You are most welcome

 

[Барбоса]

I think we need to start keeping track of the predictions we have made...

"Tarly to die on a needless attack on Aegon, ordered by Mace but instigated by Cersei" must be #129

Kevan notes that Randyll is by far the more dangerous as well, out of he and Mace

I think it is almost a given that Mace is by far the most useless of his entire family.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

I think we need to start keeping track of the predictions we have made...

Have you heard the popular fandom guesstimate of how basically the Norse Apocalypse, Ragnarok, might happen to Westeros? I can't find it atm ... it's on TV Tropes somewhere.

Another thing I've been thinking about is the title of the series. "A Song of Ice and Fire". Now there's that line in I think the first book about how Daenerys' son is the Prince That Was Promised, and his shall be the song of ice and fire" (or maybe that was Azor Ahai, can't remember). I think this is a red herring.

I think the Song of Ice and Fire is the song of death. Spoilers if you haven't read as far as A Dance With Dragons:

Spoiler

Undeath, or a semi-return from death, seems to be the main form of magic we are starting to see. But notice how people are returned to walking once more.

It is either by the Red God's magic (fire: see Beric Dondarrion/Lady Stoneheart) or by the cold (Drowned God's drowned men, the wights raised by the Others)

So I think it's possibly building to a confrontation between two powerful, morally neutral beings who are more powerful than humans and the easiest way to gain humans' trust and power is by posing as a god.

Another thing I want to know from you guys, would you be interested in a prequel series once GoT is over, about Robert's Rebellion? It'd be less political and mostly just battles unless there was some more material to flesh it out with though.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Another thing I want to know from you guys, would you be interested in a prequel series once GoT is over, about Robert's Rebellion? It'd be less political and mostly just battles unless there was some more material to flesh it out with though.

In some ways, yes. However on the season 2 blu-ray there was a really cool set of short animations based around certain events but told by different characters so it felt a lot more like the book than the show.

There's pros and cons either way.

 

[Miko]

I think we need to start keeping track of the predictions we have made...

"Tarly to die on a needless attack on Aegon, ordered by Mace but instigated by Cersei" must be #129



I think it is almost a given that Mace is by far the most useless of his entire family.

I would love too, but I'd have to try and delete most of my early ones. Shocking, some of them.

I reckon Mace is a smart cookie, laying siege to Storms End was brilliant, and without a shadow demon, he'd be in a great position. As it stands, out of all the great Houses during and since Roberts Rebellion, House Tyrell has gained the most, only House Tully could really rival the gains made, but well, they're fucked now.

 

[Барбоса]

House Tyrell has certainly been on the up and up for a large part of the story (and before).

I just think that Mace has almost nothing to do with it aside from being rich, greedy and the luck of being the liege lord of a series of skilled practitioners of war and clever individuals - his mother, his sons, Randyll Tarly, Paxter Redwyne, Mathis Rowan etc.

Without Olenna or Kevan show him good sense, he will be manipulated by Cersei into doing something stupid, such as the aforementioned Tarly-led attack on an Aegon-held Storm's End. She could easily jest about how Mace needs to go finish the job he failed to during Robert's Rebellion.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

House Tyrell has certainly been on the up and up for a large part of the story (and before).

I just think that Mace has almost nothing to do with it aside from being rich, greedy and the luck of being the liege lord of a series of skilled practitioners of war and clever individuals - his mother, his sons, Randyll Tarly, Paxter Redwyne, Mathis Rowan etc.

Without Olenna or Kevan show him good sense, he will be manipulated by Cersei into doing something stupid, such as the aforementioned Tarly-led attack on an Aegon-held Storm's End. She could easily jest about how Mace needs to go finish the job he failed to during Robert's Rebellion.

Speaking of Cersei, what do we all think of her? She's brilliantly complex. Although re-reading, I realised that she was actually pretty stupid when playing The Game, assuming she can just open her legs to everyone bar Varys, and relying on the clout of the Lannister name.

But I find a lot of her motivation quite understandable - she wants to protect her children (good), she wants to keep hold of her power (fair enough). She also sees herself as the only one out of Tywin's three kids who is working hard to protect the "Legacy" he keeping banging on about.

Her feminism is also interesting as it's double-edged. Basically I think she resents being born a woman (She outright thinks as much at one point) which is understandable in the horribly misogynistic world of Westeros. She is after all technically the eldest of Tywin's children, and if she'd been male she would inherit everything.

However, she also slips into "Queen Bee" syndrome - as soon as other women start to appear with sufficient status and charisma (namely Margaery Tyrell), she immediately decides they are enemies that threaten her when she could easily have had them as allies. Another interesting thing is how she's definitely in charge between her and Jaime. She "wears the pants" and I think this may tie in to trying to relieve some of the resentment at women's status in Seven Kingdoms society.

She also goes out of her way to be a dick when being nice to ppl could have saved a lot of trouble.

I don't like her at all really, but there are rare occasions when I can "see where she's coming from", so to speak, and find her to be one of the most in-depth characters in the series (as with the other main Lannisters).

Any thoughts on the valonqar's identity?

 

[Барбоса]

Cersei is a cunning idiot. As has been stated in this thread a couple of times, she is effective in achieving power but awful at wielding it. She is not the female version of her father. She is the female version of Robert Baratheon.

The Valonqar is surely to be Jaime.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Robert was a laissez faire king; Cersei actively fucks things up.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

“I’ve wrestled with [the issue of fan speculation online], because I do want to surprise my readers,” the author admitted to the Edinburgh audience. I hate predictable fiction as a reader, I don’t want to write predictable fiction. I want to surprise and delight my reader and take them in directions they didn’t see coming.”

Honestly, it was very nearly inevitable that something like this would happen. After all, the man does take years between novels (to his credit, they’re super freakin’ huge, though), and his fans are of an obsessive nature (an understatement), taking pleasure in scrutinizing the details for their own amusement and knowledge base. “At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I’d planted in the books and came to the right solution.”

As for what that theory could be? Many fans believe it may be in reference to a big, spoiler-y fan theory — stop reading now if you want to avoid it, we’re serious! — about the parentage of a certain know-nothing bastard.

[YOUTUBE]7DWa-JQnB20[/YOUTUBE]

“So what do I do then? Do I change it?” the author pondered. “I wrestled with that issue, and I came to the conclusion that changing it would be a disaster, because the clues were there. You can’t do that, so I’m just going to go ahead. Some of my readers who don’t read the boards, which thankfully there are hundreds of thousands of them, will still be surprised and other readers will say: ‘see, I said that four years ago, I’m smarter than you guys.’”

http://www.nerdist.com/2014/08/so-george-r-r-martin-all-but-confirmed-a-big-ol-spoiler-y-fan-theory/