Why Jeff Hardy, and not Randy Orton?

[LSN80]

I was reading PWTorch on Tuesday, where they have a daily "Ask The Editor" feature. The following question regarding Randy Orton was asked:

"Can you envision him(Randy Orton) ever being propelled back to the main event status he had in '07-'11, when he was arguably even higher on the pecking order than John Cena for a short while?"

PWTorch contributor Greg Parks gave the following response:

What's holding Orton back, and has been for some time, is the two strikes he has in the Wellness Policy. It would be difficult for WWE to invest significant main event time in him at this point given he's one strike away from termination. He could get a cup of coffee as a title challenger if the roster depth on top gets too weak, but I don't know that he'll ever get a sustained, multi-year main event push again.

I want to take this one step further, and look at the case of Jeff Hardy. Hardy, like Randy Orton, had two strikes against him on the Wellness policy. Yet when he returned from his second violation, he won the IC Title fairly quickly, then won the WWE Title a year later, and two World Heavyweight Championships shortly after. Granted, none of the reigns were long, but Jeff Hardy was consistently in a championship, then main event picture from the time he returned to the time he departed the company.

I then look at Randy Orton, who was suspended approximately a year ago, and he hasn't had a sniff of the championship picture since. He's been in some decent feuds, but he's essentially been used to elevate talent, such as the Shield at Wrestlemania, or in grudge matches, such as with Dolph Ziggler at Night of Champions, Alberto Del Rio at Hell In A Cell, and Big Show at Extreme Rules.

So it seems Parks is right. And it's not as if Orton isn't popular, the reactions he receives from the crowd currently seem third only to Daniel Bryan and John Cena. His only "shot" at getting a championship match was a 6 man Elimination Chamber, where he was pinned by Jack Swagger. I don't know what the future holds for Randy Orton, and he does have a Tag Titles match Sunday, but other then that? He seems far away from a World or WWE Title picture, where he was firmly entrenched for 5 years from 2007-2011.

Jeff Hardy and Randy Orton had alot in common. Both had two strikes on the Wellness Policy, and both were/are insanely over. Yet Jeff Hardy, once re-instated, was given chance after chance, and even won a title and main-evented Summerslam when it was known he was on his way out the door. I don't know what Orton's attitude has been like since he returned, but his push has been stalled entirely in the mid-card, often wrestling matches on Raw or PPV with no implications or long-term storyline ramifications.

So my questions are this:

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Any other thoughts or discussion on this are welcome.

 

[The Butcher]

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

Jeff sold merch, would be my best guess. I remember going to a SmackDown show a month or so after Hardy left WWE, and there were still a ton of young people wearing those arm things.

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Yes and yes. If they screw up you have them drop the title and wave bye bye. Didn't cause too many ripples when it happened with RVD.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Maybe WWE is just being more careful.

Then again, I'm not sure if everything we think we know about Orton is necessarily true. Beyond the two strikes there may be other things holding him back that didn't exist with Jeff Hardy. A few thoughts:

- maybe regardless of his pops WWE doesn't see much money in him
- maybe WWE needs to limit his world title wins since they have gotten so high at such a young age (he's pushin Flair country)
- maybe it's his attitude
- maybe it is partially because he can not face Cena for the title per a past storyline
- maybe he doesn't feel comfortable with the main event responsibility
- maybe they have bigger plans for him
- maybe it's partially because they have been focused on longer title reigns
- maybe Dolph Ziggler is just that amazing of a champion (sorry, I'll try to be more serious)

I don't know. Dirt sheet reports and reporters like to sum things up in simple answers to what could be complex problems. Maybe the parsimonious answer is the best but I think there is more to it in this case.

It's too late but knowing what we know now, elevating Hardy to that level was a mistake. He wasn't well. I still cringe seeing him take bumps and massive bumps thinking about how he is going deal with the hurt.

I see excitement for Orton in the future. He can entertain. I would still like to see him feud with Cena again some day. But if he isn't well he should be no where near this industry (in all honesty I don't what type of drugs got him suspended or how far it went).

 

[HBsam31]

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

I don't know for sure , but I think Hardy was a mega merchandise seller. Those forearm covers alone had to be huge. Every kid in the arena had them on. I also think that Vince was trying to entice Hardy to stay with the company when he got some of those runs. Orton is popular, but I think Hardy was even more popular than Orton is now. Orton, I believe has a really long term contract so I don't think he is going anywhere. Hardy was always taking time off and leaving so I think trying to keep Hardy in the WWE was a big part of it. Again this is all speculation on my part.

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Honestly I probably wouldn't have with Hardy as he even went to TNA and messed up. It seems like now Hardy is finally doing the right thing and staying clean, but back when he was still in WWE I would have hesitated to push him again. Orton I think deserves one more chance at the top. It seems the fans want him there, and I would give him one more heel run at the top to see if he can keep himself together. I will be honest. Orton has grown boring to me, and I think a heel turn is what he needs. He is great in the ring though and can still be very valuable. I think they should go ahead and let him be in the main event one more to to see if he can prove himself.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

In all honesty, I think it was a progression of their Wellness policy, and continued fallout from Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit. I don't think it's because Hardy sold better than Orton. If anything, I think losing Hardy was another straw that could've broken that broke the camel's back. They've been burned.

I think you have to look at the WWE alongside other entertainment businesses as well as sports businesses (I know...not a sport, but they are still going to be judged by the expectations they place on their performers). The stakes for both substance abuse as well as concussions has been raised all around. Consider the number of players in the NFL, for instance, who've been nailed for substance abuse violations. It's escalated in the last 2 to 3 years. Always remember that the WWE is a publicly traded company that has to be wary of bad press.

I think Orton is just a risk/reward case, and if Hardy were still around, he'd be in the exact same position as Orton. They'll work with him, they'll keep him relevant, but they will not put him in a position where he's going to derail their future plans.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Part of Randy Orton's problem, at least in my opinion, isn't so much that he has a couple of strikes against him on the WWE Wellness Policy. Don't get me wrong, it's undoubtedly affected his career in WWE as, allegedly, there were several top WWE officials who wanted to see Orton fired. From a business perspective and considering all the effort WWE put into Orton, including numerous main event pushes, it's understandable.

At the same time, however, Orton's continued popularity is undeniable. As usual, when it comes to just about anyone who has ever been a main eventer in WWE over the past 15 years, unless you happen to be Austin, The Rock, Taker or HBK, is considered "overrated" by a significant number of the IWC. However, when you look at the response Orton continuously gets from crowds whenever he comes out to do his thing, it's obvious that most WWE fans don't agree. All Orton has to do is make the slightest gesture, facial twitch or say something as simple as "my name....is Randy Orton" and the crowds pop for him. Males of all ages tend to like Orton's aggressive, not so nice guy mentality while females of all ages scream & hoot over him like 12 year olds at a Justin Bieber concert. To one degree or another, everybody has a soft spot for a "bad boy", especially women.

For me personally, I think another major problem that a lot of people simply don't talk about all that much is the fact that there's simply nothing fresh for Orton to do, generally speaking. On December 14, 2003; 23 year old Randy Orton win the Intercontinental Championship and held it for 210 days. Less than a year later, on August 15, 2004 to be more presice, 24 year old Orton won his first World Heavyweight Championship in WWE. Between August 15, 2004 and August 14, 2011; Randy Orton won 9 World Championships in WWE with 3 World Heavyweight & 6 WWE Championship wins and was one half of the tag champs with Edge. During this same period of time, Orton feuded with the top names on the roster including Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H, Edge, Mick Foley, Batista, Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Big Show and Chris Jericho. All of this would be accomplished before Randy Orton was even 30 years of age. Now, at merely 33 years of age, Randy Orton is someone who has ultimately done everything there is to do in WWE. He's too young to be a "legend" and too old to be a promising "up & comer".

Generally speaking, what WWE has used Orton for primarily since his second failure of the Wellness Policy is to use him to help put over other stars while, simultaneously, keeping him strong because of his enduring popularity. It's really the best use for him, in my opinion. His feuds with The Shield and now what could be a potential feud against Daniel Bryan at some point in the near future are some of the most refreshing programs we've seen Orton involved with in quite some time. With so many wrestlers on the WWE roster with a ton of potential, and others waiting in the wings down in NXT, I think Orton's days of being a truly dominant main event force are pretty much over. I do believe he'll be right back in the main event picture eventually, maybe at least one more title reign to bring his total to an even 10, but the desire to see Orton carrying a World Championship just simply isn't there among a lot of people. For instance, when Orton had his WHC feud against Christian, it resulted in some spectacular matches between the two over the course of the summer. However, SD! did lose several hundred thousand viewers when Orton had the title, and the IWC panned Orton getting it back over Christian. When Orton dropped the title to Mark Henry in 2011, Orton's last by the way, viewership increased to well over 3 million on a weekly basis for the blue brand and stayed that high all through Daniel Bryan's run with the strap.

Orton is a man who can still make money for WWE, that's plainly obvious whether you're a fan of him or not. I'm of the opinion, however, that WWE pushed Randy Orton much too hard and much too frequently during his 20s and the result is, as I mentioned, that there are simply no more mountains for him to climb and it makes him far less interesting to see in in a main event setting.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton?

From a character perspective, Jeff is someone, who appeals to the masses. The outcasts, the rejects, kids, men, and women, and of course, this played a BIG role in Jeff's status as one of WWE's hottest sellers for merchandise. I can still remember going to a Smackdown/ECW taping a few years ago, and when Jeff's music hit, a group of twenty-somethng women sitting in my section started screaming to the top of their lungs.

It's been mentioned already, but Randy Orton is a bad boy and psychopath. During his huge push in the build up to and after Wrestlemania 25, Orton really came into his own as the evil, heartless, and cold-blooded Viper. Of course, as a face, he's not as vicious and brutal as a face, using a more lighthearted approach to the character.

Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

As far as Jeff Hardy's mega-push towards the end goes, WWE knew he was leaving, so I have to believe WWE wanted to get as much out of him as possible. The WWE Championship win at Armageddon provided the long-awaited feel-good moment of Hardy finally grabbing the proverbial brass ring. The fans were DYING to see Hardy "win the big one," so WWE took the opportunity to cash-in on the underdog title win and short title run afterwards.

Yeah, wellness policy wise, Hardy was a walking disaster, but popularity wise, he was white-hot. Every time Hardy's music hit, he would blow the roof off of any arena. WWE knew they were running on borrowed time with Hardy, so that's why he main evented Summerslam, had two runs with the WHC, and main evented his final Smackdown in the loser leaves town steel cage match with CM Punk.

If I had to guess with Orton, I'd say his long term status has something to do with being stuck in the safe zone. WWE has put a lot of money into Orton, and if I'm not mistaken, he has a fairly long term contract. Orton has proven to be a dangerous liability, so WWE can use him to put over talent, without putting him in the WHC picture, or damaging his momentum. It's frustrating to see Orton stuck in the land of nowhere, because when it comes to talent, we all know Orton is capable of so much more. But he has no one to blame but himself.

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Knowing what I know now and using the gift of hindsight, I'd have to say no to both Orton and Hardy. It wouldn't be a wise business decision at all.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Orton is a man who can still make money for WWE, that's plainly obvious whether you're a fan of him or not. I'm of the opinion, however, that WWE pushed Randy Orton much too hard and much too frequently during his 20s and the result is, as I mentioned, that there are simply no more mountains for him to climb and it makes him far less interesting to see in in a main event setting.

I think those are good points, but I think the one point against your argument is John Cena. Granted, Cena's about 3 years older than Orton, and started his big push about a year later than Orton, but realistically, they should be at the exact same point in their careers. The WWE "should" have 2 major main event/WrestleMania headlining guys right now: Cena and Orton. There's a thread asking who is the next face after Cena? If Orton had kept his nose clean, I have no doubts it we'd be saying well, at least Orton is still pretty young, and he'll carry the banner for the foreseeable future. Obviously, none of this is the case though. I still think it comes down to the fact that the WWE knows they can't trust Orton...those two strikes loom large.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

Well, Mitch said it good, Jeff was at the leaving and they wanted to get as much as possible from him. Orton is a guy with steady contract and he agreed to pay his dues before he can be as big as before. He needs to show that he can be trusted, then he can continue to be as big as before. But mark my words, it would be soon as that happens.

As for Jeff, people see that 3 championships but forget that evenhough he was maybe hottest thing in WWE in that time, he couldn't gain that oportunity in long time. Still remember that Swanton bomb on Orton, awesome match on RAW he had with Cena for no1 conteder spot, but he couldnt gain anything before that tripple threat and he lost that one on next PPV. Other two were when he traded victories with Punk in an era when all the other big stars where either on RAW or injured. What I am trying to say is that you cant just compare them in that way(championship way) because Orton was always bigger in the eyes of WWE (eventhough now he pays his dues) and WWE always looked at Hardy as transitional thing. But comparasing is good in terms of welness policy.

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Yes I would with both. They were both(and still are) very over and make money to the companys they are with so dont see the problem. But apparently with Orton somebody sees the problem. Cant say that I blame them, the guy had a lot of incidents so its not an easy process eventhough he tries and he is maybe one of best technical wrestlers they got....

 

[LoudClearVoice]

Nice thread, interesting questions. I think, and I could be wrong, that Jeff Hardy simply sold more merchandise and was more popular than Randy Orton, even at Orton's peak. WWE is all about making the most money possible. They looked at it as, hey we'll cash in on this guy while he's so far over and keeps selling T-shirts and if he fails a test again, bye bye. With Orton, I think they always liked him but one thing that worked against him I believe is his attitude. I have heard that he's hard to work with and get along with and that may have played into why he hasn't gotten a significant push after the "second strike"

To answer your second question, I absolutely would give Orton another championship run or runs. There was a time when people were saying he'd be bigger than John Cena and win more titles than Rick Flair. Sure, we've seen Cena-Orton and Punk-Orton but honestly right now, I'd rather see heel Orton vs. Cena for the belt over Ryback.
Orton is still a valuable asset and the second strike shouldn't be that big of an issue. If he fails again, there are ways to write him off TV without being too embarrassing. He can get "injured" by someone and be forced to "retire." He can get "fired" on screen by Vince for losing a career ending match or something. I honestly don't know why they're so scared of giving him the belt again. Orton still draws and I don't know when his contract is up but if I were him I would not stay in WWE given the way they're making him into a nobody and a glorified tag team jobber.

Would I have taken another chance on Jeff Hardy?

Me, no. But from Vince McMahon's position, yes I probably would have. Again, money talks and I would have milked Hardy for as much as I could.

 

[Mustang Sally]

maybe it's his attitude

Maybe that's all it is. There's no real way to tell since we don't know the real-life personalities involved and how they approached their dealings with management, but maybe Jeff was the perennial drug chaser, properly contrite every time he screwed up, promising to straighten up and never do it again. He did great business and the company might have been willing to accept his apologies and promises as long as his presence kept bringing in business and selling t-shirts.

At the same time, we read how Randy was an arrogant bastard once he made it big, tossing his status in the company's face by tearing up hotel rooms and putting into his body whatever the hell he wanted. In meetings with the brass, maybe he was brash and condescending, daring them to take away the push of a guy who was so valuable to them; figuring they wouldn't.

Do I know all this to be true? Of course not...... but this topic is asking us to speculate why the company chose to invest in Junkie Jeff while cooling the push behind Rambunctious Randy.

Maybe it was just attitude. Sometimes an apology goes a long way.....and sometimes it takes a guy a little too long to learn that.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

The other thing that didnt cross our minds is that they maybe learned from what happened to Jeff so they dont want to make same mistake. Could be just that...

 

[Alex]

Maybe that's all it is. There's no real way to tell since we don't know the real-life personalities involved and how they approached their dealings with management, but maybe Jeff was the perennial drug chaser, properly contrite every time he screwed up, promising to straighten up and never do it again. He did great business and the company might have been willing to accept his apologies and promises as long as his presence kept bringing in business and selling t-shirts.

At the same time, we read how Randy was an arrogant bastard once he made it big, tossing his status in the company's face by tearing up hotel rooms and putting into his body whatever the hell he wanted. In meetings with the brass, maybe he was brash and condescending, daring them to take away the push of a guy who was so valuable to them; figuring they wouldn't.

Do I know all this to be true? Of course not...... but this topic is asking us to speculate why the company chose to invest in Junkie Jeff while cooling the push behind Rambunctious Randy.

Maybe it was just attitude. Sometimes an apology goes a long way.....and sometimes it takes a guy a little too long to learn that.

The other thing that didnt cross our minds is that they maybe learned from what happened to Jeff so they dont want to make same mistake. Could be just that...

I think its a combination of these things. Jeff Hardy for all intents and purposes is a nice guy. Sure he's struggled with personal problems and the like but he's still apparently a nice guy (he does a lot of fan interactions and genuinely enjoys them) Orton it seems is a dick. I mean I still find it funny that he shit in someone's bag. If I was going to give someone who worked for me another chance I'd be more inclined to go for the guy who's not an asshole.

On the other hand with what happened to Jeff after he left WWE (his arrest and the Victory Road incident) any company would probably be very hesitant to give anyone with previous issues another shot.

Personally I feel WWE is waiting for Orton to show that he's on the straight and narrow for a while before they attempt to push him to the main event scene again.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

Generally speaking, what WWE has used Orton for primarily since his second failure of the Wellness Policy is to use him to help put over other stars while, simultaneously, keeping him strong because of his enduring popularity. It's really the best use for him, in my opinion. His feuds with The Shield and now what could be a potential feud against Daniel Bryan at some point in the near future are some of the most refreshing programs we've seen Orton involved with in quite some time. With so many wrestlers on the WWE roster with a ton of potential, and others waiting in the wings down in NXT, I think Orton's days of being a truly dominant main event force are pretty much over. I do believe he'll be right back in the main event picture eventually, maybe at least one more title reign to bring his total to an even 10, but the desire to see Orton carrying a World Championship just simply isn't there among a lot of people. For instance, when Orton had his WHC feud against Christian, it resulted in some spectacular matches between the two over the course of the summer. However, SD! did lose several hundred thousand viewers when Orton had the title, and the IWC panned Orton getting it back over Christian. When Orton dropped the title to Mark Henry in 2011, Orton's last by the way, viewership increased to well over 3 million on a weekly basis for the blue brand and stayed that high all through Daniel Bryan's run with the strap.

I just want to say that you are wrong on that, Orton did made the ratings go up in SmackDown, it was Daniel Bryan and Mark Henry who made SmackDown lose a lot of viewers (they made the average rating go lower than 2.0) - Randy Orton was hot when he went to the blue brand, and he did had the second best program of the Summer'11. I also don't believe that Randy Orton's position is primarily to push younger talent, just because he did it all in the past - just see, John Cena already did everything he had to do, and somehow, someway creative find new feuds and new storylines for him and they are all entertaining - even though people believe that Cena's character is stale - when in reality it isn't even a character anymore - it's 90% person and 10% hero.

The only thing that I think Orton can't do, is sell t-shirts, just because it's not his thing, it's not coherent with Orton's personality on TV - he isn't flashy, fun, it's just different. I mean he sold DVD's, he probably outsold a lot of great DVD's with his latest one about his career. And specially, Randy Orton brings fans to either house-shows or TV tapings - I mean, I'm from Europe, we don't really get WWE here, but when they do come here I can tell you that one of the things people want to see is Randy Orton delivering a RKO - and that is more important than tshirts.

 

[Cena's #1 In My Heart]

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

One must remember that fans were beginning to resent Randy Orton in the same way they do John Cena when it was the Randy Orton and John Cena superhero show. The boo birds had come out for Orton. Orton has won a lot of the fans back though probably by staying away from the World Title for one. Much like Cena during Punk's reign. Orton also until his recent feuds with The Shield and Daniel Bryan looked bored, and unenthused, and I'm sure it carried over. It wasn't until he got into the ring with the wrestlers that made him step his game up in order to put on competitive matches that he started getting more and more over again.

Jeff Hardy always seemed to have his loyal following, though boo birds are present for him as well. Whenever a company pushes a top "STAR" instead of knockdown drag out competitive wrestler in this day and age, a small portion of the fans know it and resent it. Hardy perhaps had come back to a more receptive crowd. Surely creative was different. And Hardy had not had many runs with the Title before, so maybe they felt it was something that was a long time coming anyways. Orton's already had like 9 so just stop....

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

I wouldn't take a chance on him as the top guy, not the number one guy who carries the company. He doesn't even deserve it. Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, and others are a lot more deserving and better fitted to carry the companies brass ring. Orton's role is defiantly top guy, can't deny the fans response to him... but that's also because they spent years putting Orton over everybody and their mothers similar to Cena. Orton should be the guy, being the heel, the bad guy, the despicable one.. putting over the superheroes we really want to see... Daniel Bryan.

Anyone who is throwing a fit over me saying Daniel Bryan should be higher than Orton needs to think back to when Daniel Bryan was fired and the WWE crowds were chanting his name during PPV Main Events. I believe there was a 4 way between Cena, Sheamus, Orton, and who knows who else... and yup.. crowd just chanting for Daniel Bryan. Hopefully WWE doesn't forget the past and goes through with the teases they are currently presenting.