Why is Stone Cold given so much credit, when Rock should get it?

[KillBill]

The titles kind of confusing, I know. But I've been thinking ever since Austins hof induction, and all the talk of how he revolutionized the sport with the attitude era and all that stuff, which is true, but does Rock deserve it more?

-Its true that Austin winning the title shifted the tide of the Monday night Wars, but WCW was still getting high ratings, and they were going back and forth, with each winning the battle. The night Goldberg won his first title vs Hogan in summer of '98, that was the highest rating for that match that either show had ever seen at up to that time. During this time, Rock was becoming bigger.

-The tide turned permanent in late fall of '98. Raw began winning every week, and this was after Austin lost his title, and when Rock won his first.

-Another thread was brought up about the fingerpoke of doom, and someone mentioned Foley winning the title against...The Rock. Hell, maybe Foley should get the credit, because....

-in Sept of '99, Raw scored an unpresidented 8.4, for the segment, "This is Your Life", starring who? The Rock and Mick Foley.

I mean, I dont need a ton of details, we are familiar with these events. I'm not saying Austin wasn't amazing. He was great. I still dont feel he was Hogan, but whatever. But it seems like he is praised so much for this period, when I feel The Rock deserves as much, or more credit, and even Foley to a small extent, not more credit, but some. Thoughts?

 

[klunderbunker]

No.

To begin with, if there was a second MVP of the Attitude Era it was Foley, but that's another story. There's one flaw with the Rock theory: Austin was big without Rock, Rock wasn't big until he got the rub from Austin. Rock and Foley had great chemistry with each other, that's true, but even the two of them together are nothign compared to Austin. Austin was out there literally carrying the company. His merchandise numbers were beating Hogan's. That's simply not something that's done, period. It didn't matter who Austin was out there with, he was getting the mega pops. Rock didn't really hit the big time until just before Mania 15. Now I know he was champion before then, but if you watch it, you can see he's in WAY over his head with Austin. he holds his own with Foley, but Austin carried those feuds. Rock is indeed great, but he was never as big as Austin and he never really was close, at least not until Austin was getting dated. Without Austin there would be no Rock, because there would be no WWE for Rock to be big in. Austin > Rock by a big distrance.

 

[KillBill]

Your are correct and give a valid arguement. My point is, is that the ratings for the shows kinda show that Raw got Big when Rock became champ. Sure he got a rub from Austin, but he had that natural charisma, and could have been big without Austin.

 

[klunderbunker]

Sure he would have been big, but not as big as he was. Austin and Rock had such a natural chemistry together that it was natural that their stuff would be great. However, when you look back at the old WWF days, Rock was floundering completely until he got the IC belt. he was ok there but when he got with Austin, who was already the hottest thing in the world, Rock got lifted up too. he would have found his rhythm eventually, but he would have reached a far lower level without Austin. Think about it: Rock's glory days were late 99-most of 2000, the years Austin was out after neck surgery. Rock couldn't overcome Austin, and that would have kept him from being great.

 

[KillBill]

Good stuff man, you give a great arguement. I just feel the point is, is that Rock should get more than he got at least. I'm not arguing who the bigger star was, but Austin couldn't beat WCW or Goldberg by himself, until Rock got big. I just want The Rock to get his due for his part in helping turn the company around, and I feel he should get just as much for that, not being better than Austin. Hopefully thats not superconfusing.

 

[klunderbunker]

Actually, Austin did beat WCW and the NWO (which was far bigger than Goldberg) more or less by himself. WWF broke their losing streak on April 13, 1998 with Austin vs. Vince in the main event which didn't happen. Austin had just won the belt and didn't even have a first opponent at the time as Austin vs. Vince was just starting to heat up. Around that time Rock was just kind of hanging around the midcard as he was in between his feuds with Shamrock and DX. Rock was far from meaning anything significant until that fall when he and HHH dominated the midcard while Austin was the undisputed biggest star in the world. If anyone was the catalyst for Austin's mega run it was Vince, but even that's stretching it. Rock didn't come into the picture until WWF was in control of the ratings wars.

 

[mckeebr]

I have been thinking. Why should it be called the attitude era? I feel that it is a part off wwe's on going arrogance, which is why it is called that. The business was bigger than ever back than. There were 3 companies to thank for that. WCW was still big at the very hight of that time and many people enjoyed ECW (that could see it).

My thing is wouldn't the "hardcore" era be a better name? Hardcore matches were appearing on wwe and wcw at the time. Not to mention that both added a title just for these types of matches. They got the concept largely from ECW. Also, if you look back. Many small promotions came about at this time mimicking ecw and being profoundly hardcore in their matches.

So do you think we should call it the attitude era or the hardcore era?

 

[shafe_41]

Agreed. KB pretty much covered all the basics right there. Austin was big because of Austin and everything he brought to the table. If the Austin character wouldn't have taken the world (the wrestling world) by storm, I really doubt they would have given The Rock the chance and the freedom they did with his character either. If it wasn't for the success of Austin, the Rock would have never been the Rock. We could very well be seeing an emotionless colorless character of "Dwayne Miavia or Dwayne Johnson" leading the totally overrated garbage stable of Legacy today. I strongly believe that if it weren't for the success of Austin, the Rock would not be in Hollywood today. Because again... through the success of Austin, freedom was given to Rock to be loud, charismatic, cocky, and well... basically... to be the Rock. Emphasis though on the basic idea of if Austin would not have been a success, there would be no Rock.

A lot of credit is also given to Austin because injuries forced him out of the business. The Rock left willingly for more money and more fame after his big speech on Raw about how the WWE was in his blood and if the guys in the back don't have the WWE in their blood that they should "get the F out." Obviously this was around the time the company changed to the WWE. How ironic huh? Austin would still be in the ring today if he wouldn't have had all those injuries to his neck and knees. In a sense, the Rock copped out on us. But that's a debate for one of the other 221 threads about loving the Rock and hanging onto his change purse or do we really have a reason to be mad at the Rock. Not here.

However... there were so many stars at that time, the Rock's spot would have easily gone to somebody else. Foley was also a big reason the WWE got over huge. You have to remember the momentum shift of the Monday Night Wars happened when FOLEY... NOT THE ROCK, won the WWF title from Triple H. And yes This is Your Life... the highest rated segment in Raw history was with the Rock... but it also involved... FOLEY. It was also Foley's epic spots (accident or not) in matches that elevated the popularity of the WWE. So to say Austin couldn't get over WCW and Nitro himself is partially true... I think any other superstar such as Foley, Triple H, etc... could have assisted in elevating the WWE above WCW. I just personally believe the Rock was just really in the right place at the right time.

 

[KillBill]

Austin beat the watered down version of the NWO, and he did not beat Goldberg, not right away. There was an 8 week stretch from late Aug. 1998, starting the nite Goldberg won his title, that went into early fall where WCW won the ratings war, and Austin was hot. The last night WCW won the ratings was in OCT. of 98, almost 7 months after Austin won the title. They were in control, for those months, but did not maintain it, until late oct, early Nov, and thats around the time Rock won his first title. The ratings were all WWE after this point, and Rock was champ. Austin started it, but he needed the Rock to finish it.

We could probably go on forever, but hopefully more opinions will come.

However... there were so many stars at that time, the Rock's spot would have easily gone to somebody else. Foley was also a big reason the WWE got over huge. You have to remember the momentum shift of the Monday Night Wars happened when FOLEY... NOT THE ROCK, won the WWF title from Triple H. And yes This is Your Life... the highest rated segment in Raw history was with the Rock... but it also involved... FOLEY. It was also Foley's epic spots (accident or not) in matches that elevated the popularity of the WWE. So to say Austin couldn't get over WCW and Nitro himself is partially true... I think any other superstar such as Foley, Triple H, etc... could have assisted in elevating the WWE above WCW. I just personally believe the Rock was just really in the right place at the right time.

Please give me a name that could have taken The Rock's spot. And dont say HHH lol. Nobody had the chrarisma of the Rock at that point. And yes, Foley was pivital, but WWE had already been winning for a couple months, they had momentum. Foley was the nail in the coffin.

 

[ThaRaph]

It started once Austin shed his Ringmaster gimmick, winning KOTR and coining the "Austin 3:16" phrase. From there, it was his submission match with Bret Hart which surprisingly (at least in my opinion) made him a face with the fans. Then it was the fued with McMahon, everybody's "I wanna kick my boss's ass" fantasies started being played out on TV. Then the rise of DX as a half-and-half heel/face thingy kicked in. Basically, the Attitude Era was already well underway before Dwayne Johnson was the ever-annoying Rocky Miavia. The Rock/Austin chemistry didnt come until after Austin tore the house down @ Mania-14

 

[shafe_41]

haha no worries Bill. You will NEVER hear me say Triple H did anything that was pivotal to the Monday Night Wars. I still don't believe Triple H has done anything all that memorable but that's for another thread.

With that said... it is a very tough argument to say the Rock wasn't a huge boost to the WWE because there's no doubt that he was. I just can't think of many more ways to say that I think the WWE still would have gotten over without the Rock. It's tough to judge how something would have turned out without something else (in this case... the Rock). So it's near impossible to say how the WWE would have turned out without the Rock, but I believe they would be in the same position they are in today.

To further comment on KB's point about Vince being the catalyst and how that's stretching it... I don't belieive that's a stretch at all. Austin/McMahon is arguably the greatest rivalry in wrestling history. Both characters were built PERFECTLY at exactly the same time. You had Austin... the "f^ck authority" character that the crowd was totally behind. You had McMahon, the ultimate control freak and the guy who tried to make Austin's life (in the product of course) a living hell and the crowd totally despised. These two characters just developed so perfectly, that even though you knew everything in wrestling was written and staged... Austin and McMahon did it so well that there were times even the most educated wrestling fan would think "wait... is this real this time?" That line between Austin and McMahon was so blurred and that was because those two played those characters to absolute perfection. You can't say much more than that.

Austin however... pretty much did beat WCW by himself. Sure WCW took the ratings wins when Goldberg had Hogan fed to him on a silver platter for the WCW title, but that was only because that was the LAST CARD that WCW could play. That match on Nitro was a desperation move by Bischoff 3 days before Nitro even aired. Goldberg found out he was taking on Hogan for the title... by an ad on TV advertising the match...the Friday before it happened. WCW had no fire left. In a sense... WCW's fire was burning out and the Hogan Goldberg title match was just a giant can of gasoline on WCW's fading fire where the fire got really big and really hot... but that gasoline burns fast and the better product still prevailed.

Foley would have been that guy that replaced the Rock. It's hard to say how things would have gone and what role Foley would have really played... but Foley would have been the guy. Having Austin and the Rock to be the 2 big guys and then Foley being in a sense... the 3rd guy does make Foley just the nail in the coffin. Without the Rock, Foley would have been the number 2 guy and I think you would have then had some collective nails in the coffin in Triple H, the eventual arrival of Jericho, and just basically WCW driving themselves into the ground.

Does the Rock deserve some credit? Of course he does. But it's tough to make the argument that the Rock would have been the Rock...without Austin.

 

[Ezekyo]

I always felt that Rock was kind of riding Austin's coattails; whenever Austin started something, Rock would try and mimic it. Here's a couple examples I can remember: Rock used to always say "sum'bitch", but only after Austin began using it in promos. Then of course, Austin's "cup of shut the hell up" line... not long after that, The Rock told Kevin Kelly to go drink a nice, tall glass of shut up juice. It's reasons like that I feel The Rock was second-rate compared to Austin.

 

[shafe_41]

I always felt that Rock was kind of riding Austin's coattails; whenever Austin started something, Rock would try and mimic it. Here's a couple examples I can remember: Rock used to always say "sum'bitch", but only after Austin began using it in promos. Then of course, Austin's "cup of shut the hell up" line... not long after that, The Rock told Kevin Kelly to go drink a nice, tall glass of shut up juice. It's reasons like that I feel The Rock was second-rate compared to Austin.

Rock never rode Austin's coattails because fans of the product and of the business pick out fakers and copycats very easily and we let them know about it. The bottom line is the success of the Austin character paved the way for other characters like it. One or two phrases once in awhile doesn't constitute Rock riding Austin's coattails. If there was no Austin, there would be no Rock and arguably there wouldn't be any Cena, and Kennedy, or any of the greats on the mic. Sure some guys were good on the stick before Austin, but Austin made the art of the promo memorable and cut some of the best ever. As did the Rock. Hogan put promos on the map, but Austin and the Rock made sure people knew how to get to them. If the Rock would have come first, then we would be having this conversation in reverse. However... we aren't. Austin and the Rock were both great, and both original in their own way... but you can't look past the fact that Austin and the success of the Austin character came first. The Rock stemmed from that.

 

[bulldog76]

Austin beat the watered down version of the NWO, and he did not beat Goldberg, not right away. There was an 8 week stretch from late Aug. 1998, starting the nite Goldberg won his title, that went into early fall where WCW won the ratings war, and Austin was hot. The last night WCW won the ratings was in OCT. of 98, almost 7 months after Austin won the title. They were in control, for those months, but did not maintain it, until late oct, early Nov, and thats around the time Rock won his first title. The ratings were all WWE after this point, and Rock was champ. Austin started it, but he needed the Rock to finish it.

Well, lets look at what WCW was producing at that time. Goldberg was still running on the streak. No real character development; just the continued focus on the streak. After a while, people tired of it. They needed to see a "next step" in either Goldberg's character or story. The next major development of his story would be the loss. The only signifcant events during his title reign from July until December was his match with Sting and Jackhammering the Giant. So while people waited for him to lose (I don't think anyone really believed he would lose to DDP or Bam Bam), fans suffered through an undeveloping storyline. When Goldberg finally did lose in December, it was huge. Too bad WCW decided to kill all the momentum Nash had by having him lay down and drop the title to Hogan. (In my opinion, this was as bad if not worse than David Arquette winning the title. Why lay down when you did what no one else could? No logic.) So Raven's flock had no steam after it was fed to Goldberg. Goldberg had no steam as he had no depth to his character and the streak was dead. Nash had no steam when he layed down for Hogan. And Hogan was a returning heel to a "re-united" nWo that still sported two seperate armies (again logic escapes the storyline). What was WCW trying to build on?

So you could argue that the Rock was the benefit of WCW running into a creative brick-wall. You could argue that the Rock's success just happened to coincide with the WCW's falling. But, I think Rock was right place, right time. But who wasn't? (I doubt "Stone Cold" would have worked 3-5 years earlier and I doubt Hulk Hogan could debut today and be huge like he was in the 80's. Right place, right time is an element to success in every aspect of life.) WCW didn't seem to be building steam with anyone. Just trying to re-ignite a fire with used kindling. WWE was trying to build steam. They established Austin. They had Undertaker and Kane. In late 98 to early 99, they were building and establishing the Rock and Mankind (or at least elevating Foley into a championship contender).

Credit to the Rock for excelling in his role. He deserves a tremendous amount of credit. He added to the product. The more established talent, the better. But Austin is the rock the WWE decided to build its next era on. That is why he gets the credit. That is why Eddie Guererro was hard on himself for SmackDown's poor ratings during his reign. That is why Shawn Michaels was upset with himself during his reign in the mid-90's. When you are the rock of the company, you are the one that is judged by the company's overall success or failure. Just like a QB is judged by his team's success and pitchers and coaches are judged by their win-loss record. There may be other factors that aren't necessarily fair, but the end results are what they are judged by.

 

[IronGiant09]

WCW was getting the ratings because more fans were watching it. WCW had every old WWE star that made it what it is today (Like what TNA is doing with Angle, Nash, Sting, Victoria, Booker T, etc...) and it gave people the chance to see their old favorites (Hogan, Sting, the Steiners, Bret Hart, the Outsiders, Flair for a short time, and even Larry Zbyszko).

Austin brought a new "attitude" to the WWE. Before him, it was still more glam than what is is today...Austin's way of business changed all that. Triple H had not formed D-X, the Rock was still Rocky Maivia, but when Austin changed the landscape, all that changed...DX was formed, Maivia became the Rock, everything changed because of how Austin carried himself. Mick Foley would have never changed from Mankind if the new attitude hadn't started. This changed boosted WWE ratings. Even the Undertaker changed because of it.

The Rock will be inducted soon now that Austin has gone in, Foley will to once he leaves TNA. Now that Austin is in...Triple H will get in soon, The Rock will, Foley, and all the major players of that era except for maybe Michaels and Undertaker, they will go in before the others.

 

[njchaingang]

the big thing IMO is that the rock left the company and wants nothing to do with it. yes he inducted his grandfather and father but that was a small thing he did. austin was so over with the fans that even when he was heel during the invasion storyline people still cheered him. look at the WHAT chant that is still said to this day.

 

[RicSpade]

I will be the first to admit I was watching WCW more than WWF at the time of the attitude era, but at the time it was because of Bret Hart going to WCW and then things got kind of stale on that side of the coin. This actually got me thinking about this thread...

Pre-attitude era it was obvious the WWF was going into a different direction they were trying to get away from the cartoonish style of wrestling and trying to do new things this was the formation of DX, Bret Hart going off on Vince, and Austin becoming Austin.
I will admit at first Austin was interesting to watch, and so is the Rock (I realized even more so watching some of his past work on the WWE DVD, watch it), but here is the thing that makes this whole thread make you wonder.

Austin wouldn't have gotten over as well as he did if he hadn't gotten the boost from Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13 with how tough Bret made him look in that match and the rest of the feud afterwards, and The Rock wouldn't have been a true main eventer if he hadn't main evented with Austin at Wrestlemania.

So while we can sit here and say Austin beat the NWO and The Rock beat Goldberg and Al Snow beat himself up with head. The credit really needs to go to the guys who propelled them to beat out Goldberg, Hogan, Sting, meaning the real credit goes to Bret Hart, HBK, Owen Hart, Undertaker, yes even HHH (the ladder match at summerslam prepared him and the Rock for the main events)

 

[Brent.Elsley]

Whoever started this thread said that Austin was great but Rock deserved more. I must point out that the Rock is now far more successful than anyone that was in the wrestling business and left it or is still in the wrestling business is. He has far more than he deserves and he should feel incredibly lucky. Here's a guy that said on many occasions that the WWE was his home and he loved it. Said wrestling was in his blood. etc etc etc. Then after not a very lengthy term with the company he books it for Hollywood. Now, I don't blame the guy. Anyone would take the success of a few million dollars per movie over a few million dollars a year. And yes, most of his promos and videos where he said he loved the business were probably pre-written for him but if he agreed to say it, he should at least come back once in a while and give the fans an exciting moment or two. However, he snubbed the fans and ignores the fact he was even in the business. Which is why I agree with John Cena that he sold out.

So in conclusion, to say the Rock deserves more is just crazy. Steve Austin should be where the Rock is right now. He gave far more to the business and to the fans and forever will always be greater than the Rock. Dedicated thing about Austin is, if he were where Rock is today..... I believe he'd still return now and again to show his respect to the fans and the people that got him where he is today. But that's just my theory.

 

[The Andy]

I could be wrong but I think it was Mick Foley winning the title on Raw that shifted the tide of the Monday Night Wars. When it was announced on Nitro earlier in the night, viewers switched to Raw and some never switched back

 

[tbp82]

The Rock left wrestling nothing more or nothing less here. These kind of conversation turn into more popularity contest than they do conversations. Despite what people/fans tell you when Austin was being pushed as the main player and was having his feuds with Foley, Taker etc..........they were getting smashed by WCW. When Rock and Foley had the title swith on Raw that is when the things turned. Austin was huge in improving the WWE fan base but The Rock was the one who took them to the next level. I know he left and will never be given the credit because of it. At the height of the monday night war if Austin, Foley, Rock, Taker, and HHH were the main players only two guys on that list leaving would have killed the WWE and I'll give you a hint neither of two were named Austin, Foley, or Taker.

 

[bobbem1988]

the rock was a great entertainer funny as hell...but he was no stone cold steve austin who feuded with every big name given to him single handedly took on the corporation/corparate ministry and kicked vince's ass every week much to the delight of every fan who watched back then...the rock came to promise wen he joined the corprate ministry before this he was the leader of the nation who where midcard faction at best and were caught in a feud with DX who where better in every aspect....i like the rock he was a great performer but as i mentioned before he wasnt as big as austin at the time and until the austin/rock feuds wasnt really thats great...let us not forget rocky maivia which was pure crap

 

[Tastycles]

I'm not so sure that anybody has got it right here. Foley, Rock, Austin and the good version of DX were all huge in the attitude era, the merchandise and ratings scores etc prove it and there are a range of reasons for it. The most attributable to them is that HHH, Rock, Austin and Foley probably have the best chemistry between four main eventers in the history of professional wrestling, all four of them have had classic feuds with the other three, that's important.

However, the most important reason for the success at the time wasn't any of them it was Mr McMahon. I do not mean Vince McMahon, master of the storylines, I mean the character. Without him, Austin would remain the guy he was at the start of 1998, Foley would have just been the guy who fell off the cell, DX would have been quite irrelevant, and The Rock would have remained the guy he was after the Nation fell apart.

Not that that is a bad thing, but McMahon turned Austin into the guy everyone wanted to be, beating his good for nothing boss, Foley became the tourtured soul of old and DX became the comic uprising to Austin's dramatic one. The Rock was galvanised into being a champion of superb proportions.

All of them would have been stars without McMahon, but none of them would have been able to put WWF over the top without him, Mr. McMahon is without a doubt the number one reason for the success of the attitude era, and his ultimate downfall brought about by DX, Rock, Mankind and Austin is what everyone wanted to see, and it worked superbly.

 

[King Patrick Star]

The titles kind of confusing, I know. But I've been thinking ever since Austins hof induction, and all the talk of how he revolutionized the sport with the attitude era and all that stuff, which is true, but does Rock deserve it more?

-Its true that Austin winning the title shifted the tide of the Monday night Wars, but WCW was still getting high ratings, and they were going back and forth, with each winning the battle. The night Goldberg won his first title vs Hogan in summer of '98, that was the highest rating for that match that either show had ever seen at up to that time. During this time, Rock was becoming bigger.

-The tide turned permanent in late fall of '98. Raw began winning every week, and this was after Austin lost his title, and when Rock won his first.

-Another thread was brought up about the fingerpoke of doom, and someone mentioned Foley winning the title against...The Rock. Hell, maybe Foley should get the credit, because....

-in Sept of '99, Raw scored an unpresidented 8.4, for the segment, "This is Your Life", starring who? The Rock and Mick Foley.

I mean, I dont need a ton of details, we are familiar with these events. I'm not saying Austin wasn't amazing. He was great. I still dont feel he was Hogan, but whatever. But it seems like he is praised so much for this period, when I feel The Rock deserves as much, or more credit, and even Foley to a small extent, not more credit, but some. Thoughts?

I think the simple answer to this is because of how things ended for both men. Austin ended his in – ring career and transitioned into making special appearance with the WWE, while the Rock became Dwayne Johnson. I think if Stone Cold became Steve Williams and the Rock made special appearances, things may be different. Another reason could be the fact that Austin was World Champ first and was basically the Face of the Attitude Era. There’s a customized WWE World Title for Austin. WM XIV was Austin’s coming out party. The Rock was Intercontinental Champion when Austin and Mike Tyson celebrated in the ring. Jim Ross said, "The Austin Era has begun", not "The Rock Era has begun". I think it’s all a matter of timing.

 

[Mark0820]

To the people saying "Well Rock wouldn't be Rock without Austin" Austin wouldn't have been Austin if Hart hadn't made Austin look like a god in the ring and pushed him over the top at WM13. The Attitude Era also wouldn't have happened as quickly without Hart. It all started when Hart spit in the face of McMahon.

 

[supersayian]

both of these guys are given plenty of credit for that era both changed wrestling forever and made characters so great that we would pay to see them only. throw in Mcmahon and Foley among others and it was huge. not just anyone guy is given credit for the whole era. because there were to many guys who played a big vitale key role in the company. guys played there parts well and made wrestling stick around as long as it has. each decade seems to have new guys who step up and change the era. this era has to be Cena and Batista along with Orton and Y2J these guys are the new era and are passing it down to the next group for the next decade.