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What is a mark? I know its original meaning, but that's been heavily distorted. It seems to apply to anyone these days. Mat wrestling is boring, unless it's part of a bigger match. It's why nobody ever popped for a rest hold.
EDIT: By the way ... all the pro-Angle folks out there ... quit calling him a 12-time world champion ... it makes you look silly. Angle is an 8-time World Champion.
While you made some valid arguments, here's what I mean: A mark is someone who is a fan but also appreciates the business. In basketball, people can be absolute marks for Jordan or Shaq based solely on the fact that they are popular, when they might not even like the sport. In pro wrestling, marks for Hogan or Cena, which are mostly little kids I will admit, are people who like the characters rather than what they bring to the table. The mark calling was more of a little cheap shot since I love Angle, which I apologize for. But Cena and Hogan did not have consistently good matches. They do the same stuff in every single match and never change it up. People like Angle, HBK or Taker, while in essence it looks like they're doing the same stuff, are able to adapt to their opponents. Cena & Hogan have a few good matches because if I sat down for an hour I don't think I could come up with a top 20 Best Matches for both people, when I could do the same for Taker, Flair, Angle, HBK & Hart in minutes.
The difference between being entertained and enjoying wrestling, to me anyway, is when you see a match like Angle vs. Joe (btw, I was at Lockdown in Lowell, it was an okay match but not the greatest) and you can be entertained. While other people NEED to see high flying acrobatics, or big signatures, or people yelling their catchphrases in the ring for the crowd to chant along with. People can be entertained by watching wrestling, something like Flair vs. Steamboat 2/3 falls and not get bored. I feel sorry for people who don't like the mat wrestling style because that's what wrestling truly is.
1-time FILA World Freestyle Champion
1-time PPW Heavyweight Champion
1-time WCW World Champion
1-time WWE World Champion
4-time WWE Heavyweight Champion
1-time IWGP Third Belt Champion
1-time NWA-TNA Champion (before they had to strip him)
2-time TNA World Champion
If they count the FILA, they might count the Gold Medal, since he was the best in the world in his weight division in 1996. Flair is more then a 16 time champion but not all record books count it, like in Puerto Rico when he wasn't supposed to lose the belt but did it so he wouldn't incite a riot.
As for American pro wrestling goes, he is a 9 time World Champion.
I'd also like to end this, as far as the Cena thing goes since I'm new and can't make new threads, Cena cannot be a remarkable wrestler for this one reason alone: Why in anyone's right mind would you hook the leg and perform a fishermen suplex ala Mr. Perfect only to release it, when you're supposed to bridge with it. If any Cena fan can answer me that, I'd love to know.
Angle is great. Thank you.
I don't know where you are getting your numbers ... but they are off. First off ... when recognizing World Champions ... the standard is Pro Wrestling Illustrated. By their standard he has 8, not 12, not 9.
It really is simple:
He is a FOUR time WWE Champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_Champions
ONE time WCW World Heavyweight Champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WCW_World_Heavyweight_Champions
ONE time (WWE) World Heavyweight Champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heavyweight_Champions_(WWE)
TWO time TNA World Heavyweight Champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_TNA_World_Heavyweight_Champions
He has NEVER been recognized as a NWA World Champion (or champion of any sorts with that company) nor was he stripped of it ... as they lost rights to it on TNA before he even won it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NWA_World_Heavyweight_Champions
As for the PPW title ... it is not recognized by PWI ... or any real wrestling industry leader, nor is the IWGP Third Belt Championship ... though maybe it should be. Now it is obvious that TNA is counting all of these and counting the FILA and Gold Medals to get him to 12. But it is simple ... by the industry standard ... he has 8.
Just like we don't count Flair's All Japan NWA World Championship, his Central State World Championship, WCW International Heavyweight Championship, his St. Louis Club NWA World Title, or even his divided NWA World Titles. We don't run around calling Flair a 22-time World Champ because of these minor titles that happen to call themselves World Titles ... we should not be doing the same with Angle's.
My numbers are correct. The only thing that changed was you deleting the titles he won since "the industy standard" doesn't count them. Believe me, in WWE and TNA, I know what he has won.
By the industry standard. Hmm. Nobody asked "How many championships does PWI recognize." Someone said calling Kurt Angle a 12-time champion made people look silly. The fact that PWI is the standard is b.s. They publish some championships that are dead, and don't publish championships that are dead, so does that mean the people who won them aren't recognized? I'm not saying that Kurt joined a backyard fed that decided to call a piece of metal a world championship. I'm talking about legitimate world titles, and whether PWI counts them, or Flair's other titles, who cares? Do they have all the Olympic Gold Medal winners in their books? No, that's what an Olympic record book is for. PWI only counts a few promotions, and if I went in my car and retrieved my PWI book from this year, I may recall them recognizing some Japanese titles too.
There's wrestlers in the industry who couldn't give a damn if they make it on the PWI 500 or not, yet we have to go by their standards of championship wins?
May 13th, 2007: This was a Three Way match at TNA Sacrifice, also involving Sting and World Heavyweight Champion Christian Cage, for what was referred to as the World Heavyweight Championship. Following this, Angle was awarded the newly established TNA World Heavyweight Championship, thus, becoming the inaugural champion. After Slammiversary 2007, this is no longer recognized by TNA.
May 14th, 2007: Aired May 17, 2007. Angle was stripped of the title by Jim Cornette due to the controversial finish of the match at Sacrifice. A new undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion is set to be determined at Slammiversary 2007. After the event, this is no longer recognized by TNA.
June 17th, 2007: This was a King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, also involving Christian Cage, Chris Harris, Samoa Joe and A.J. Styles. This is recognized to be the start of the title's history after the event.
So what title did Kurt win there? It's a legitimate question, not a knock. Is it like a Jericho deal where his name is removed from the record books? Jericho wasn't stripped, the decision was reversed. Angle had to have won something to be stripped by it.
]I don't TBH he has Charisma but i don't like his wrestling style, he can't he does a few germans does some boring mat wrestling angle slams and the ankle lock *YAWN* seriously... the most exiting (spelling) he has ever done is a German to the outside
He has had a few good matches but really i'm judging him on his WWE performance, I don't watch TNA
Well, Kurt is a legit world class athelete, and has a gold medal (that I watched him win) to show for it. I am a fan of his dating back to the '96 Summer Games, so I might be skewed a little in his favor. His "boring" mat wrestling takes more talent than most of today's young stars have (trust me, I was an amateur freestyler, and it takes a great deal of talent and know-how). And, if the high spots are more your flavor, he can do that as well. He has a beautiful moonsault that almost rivals the best of them all Keiji Mutoh, and his 450's are a sight to behold as well. If you ask me, and you did, Kurt just may be the total package, as far as talent is concerned.(Not the Total Package Lex Luger, as that would be an insault.)