Where'd the Heels Go?

[Hazardous]

I never ONCE said we NEEDED it and I never once said WWE has not put on good matches, unlike what you just ranted in your enitre post and managed to throw hogan vs goldberg a few times im staying on track with the topic which has talking about heels, and HEELS VS FACE THATS WHAT THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT.

Well since the whole OP was focused around Hogan/Goldberg, yes I did bring that up a few times. And you say I'M ranting, you're the one spazzing out here. Take a chill pill, relax a little. I mentioned that the Heel vs Face thing really isn't as important as it use to be. Can you not get the same shock value out of Heel vs Heel, or Face vs Face? Look at HBK vs 'Taker, as I said earlier. Was that not a defining moment in WWE history? I believe so yes. Almost everyone remembers HBK vs Cena on RAW a few years back. Another Face vs Face match, which was one of the best RAW matches IMO.
Why does a Heel need the shock value to be a mega Heel? You brought that up earlier. Well, yes it does help, but he also doesn't NEED it to be a mega heel either. Barrett and his Nexus cohorts had the shock value, now they've settled into their top heel on RAW role. Kane (not so surprising to most of us) had the "shock" of taking out Undertaker, and is now the top heel on Smackdown. When Undertaker eventually beats Kane, there is your huge crowd reaction. So you've seen it before, so what. Lots of people have not. So for THEM this is a defining moment.

Great you dont think there is a need you can settle for cena vs nexus,

Yes I can indeed.

Kane vs Taker its stale I have seen it done already TWICE

For you, yes, not for everyone else though. For some, this is their first time seeing it. So this is huge in their eyes. Just because you think it's over done, doesn't mean everyone does. I could just as easily say that the days of the Super Heel are over done.

"The game has evolved. Either evolve with it, or get left behind"

Glad you liked it enough to quote.

The whole point is WWE has not done anything of this nature in a while its not like they do this once a year it has not been done in over 5 years. Where the #1 and #2 guys in the company are face and heel, and has been dangled infront of your face for months.

Again, why does it matter? Just because you are not excited enough about it, does not mean everyone isn't. Summerslam was "dangled" in front of us for a while, had Raw's top guys against Nexus. Was great build up. Had the "Shock" of the mystery partner coming out, and the reaction when Cena won was pretty damn good, even if everyone didn't agree with it. Would you like me to pull up the video for you?

Wow they dont need it so we shouldn't talk about, or want it. You are knocking people for wanting to see something great on TV, yea that product is ok but you act like its a crime for wrestling to excite you not just entertain you.

No, not a crime to want it. But pretty annoying when you blame PG for not having good enough Heels that fit your criteria.

when the hell did me or the OP mention the Attitude era which is the first word in your 1st post response? Never

You said that:

The heel went with the PG era. Heels can't push the envelope, they can't run promos like they use to be able to,

Well I see a whole bunch of Heels still. They may not be what you are use to. Kane draws heat. "Dashing" Cody draws heat, Drew draws heat. Vickie draws almost Vince style heat. And that's just the Smackdown side of things. They may not be the style of Heel you are accustom to, but they are this generations Heel.

you try to put it out there like that so you can turn this into a PG era supporter post and go on a rant on how great WWE is doing and if you dont like it watch TNA or get stuck in the past. Put no one ever said their NEEDED to be anything thats what your whole rant revolves around and no one said a feud of that nature was NEEDED

Actually I do believe I did see the word "need" in the OP..

Wrestling needs to produce a new kind of heel that is not for turning.

it was about the lack of top heels, and how far the WWE is from a major top heel/face feud that generates a crowd reaction like that match did. maybe you should check it out on youtube if you even watched wcw or wrestling for that matter back then, you wont find that kind of reaction in WWE title matches if you looked now, and thats fine because WWE is building new stars, since everyone bitched about seeing orton/HHH/Cena toss around so its understandable that its not going to happen because those kinda matches that generate that much of a crowd reaction come around once or twice a decade.

How about the crowd reaction here?
[YOUTUBE]v/H4PWxBpvWb4?fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]
I'd say for those fans, that had the same effect as Hogan/Goldberg did for the WCW ones. And that was only 4 years ago. You want newer? okay, lets say..
[YOUTUBE]v/soH7mbzw1AA?fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]
If you take into account how many people were there, thats a damn good reaction for a Face beating a big time Heel I'd say.. Especially for a Cena win.

But thats why we are discussing it and some wishing for a match of that caliber, im sure you will somehow try and make this about standing up for the WWE again, and putting words in peoples mouth that were never said again! but I guess thats what you do when you cant discuss wrestlings past without getting to touchy on your love for the product now

I loved it in the 90's, the 2000's, and still do now. There's plenty to like as well. Jericho is a good heel, and has been for a few years now too. The only reason you hear so many Y2J chants, is because even when he wants you to hate him, people just love the guy. Is that the WWE's fault? I don't think so. He could come out on RAW tomorrow and punt a baby, still gong to have Y2J chants going on. I do understand what you are saying. Yes it would be cool to see things like that again. But the fact is, the game's changed now to the point that things like that are different.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

IMO, there's too many heels in the WWE, so nobody really stands out. Over the past year or so, the WWE has had an influx of young,cocky heels. Guys like the Miz, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Drew McIntyre, Ted Dibiase, Cody Rhodes, the rest of the guys in Nexus. Along with C.M. Punk turning heel last year.

They're pushing so many heels in the Upper-Midcard/Main Event that it's hard for a guy to be dominant or really all that entertaining.

I'm not really entertained by any of these guys with the exception of C.M. Punk. Their pushes are all starting to run together.

Instead of there being one Main Heel, there's 4 or 5. A decade ago, there was no doubt that Triple H was the top Heel in the WWE. If I asked who the top heel in the WWE is to 5 guys, I'd get 5 different answers.

Trying to figure out who the top face is isn't nearly that hard. Unfortunately, that's another problem the WWE is facing. While they've been building up their heels too much. They've been building up their faces too little.

They're not really building up that next big fan favorite.

Wrestlemania for the most part is built around the big bad guy finally losing at the end to the fan favorite everybody loves. There was Hogan beating Andre. Bret Hart vs Yokozuna. Steve Austin vs The Rock. Chris Benoit making Triple H tap. Cena beating JBL who had been WWE Champion for 10 months. Batista ending Evolution. Who's gonna be the dragon that gets slayed?

Nobody knows because there's too many dragons.

 

[FightOwensFight]

It has been said at least once in this thread, but I will echo the sentiment that the Attitude Era kind of messed up the whole face vs heel dynamic. That is when people like Austin started getting the biggest reactions and the idea of the tweener really came to the front. I do think the WWE is making an effort with new heels with the likes of Punk, Sheamus, Barrett, McIntyre, Swagger, and now Alberto Del Rio though.

I think these guys all have what it takes to be major heels if worked right (especially Punk and Del Rio). The key with heels is that they have to do things you don't like (like Punk telling us he is better, Del Rio picking on the smaller guys, etc) and also need to cheat to win (though not every time, as that gets old as well). The best heels were always the ones, that after they pulled on the tights to get the pin, or got DQ's on purpose, or had their valet do the distraction thing, made you legitimately mad that they still won. That just isn't happening right now. i still have hope though.

 

[mrbooker]

Well since the whole OP was focused around Hogan/Goldberg, yes I did bring that up a few times. And you say I'M ranting, you're the one spazzing out here. Take a chill pill, relax a little. I mentioned that the Heel vs Face thing really isn't as important as it use to be. Can you not get the same shock value out of Heel vs Heel, or Face vs Face? Look at HBK vs 'Taker, as I said earlier. Was that not a defining moment in WWE history? I believe so yes. Almost everyone remembers HBK vs Cena on RAW a few years back. Another Face vs Face match, which was one of the best RAW matches IMO.
Why does a Heel need the shock value to be a mega Heel? You brought that up earlier. Well, yes it does help, but he also doesn't NEED it to be a mega heel either. Barrett and his Nexus cohorts had the shock value, now they've settled into their top heel on RAW role. Kane (not so surprising to most of us) had the "shock" of taking out Undertaker, and is now the top heel on Smackdown. When Undertaker eventually beats Kane, there is your huge crowd reaction. So you've seen it before, so what. Lots of people have not. So for THEM this is a defining moment.


Yes I can indeed.

For you, yes, not for everyone else though. For some, this is their first time seeing it. So this is huge in their eyes. Just because you think it's over done, doesn't mean everyone does. I could just as easily say that the days of the Super Heel are over done.



Glad you liked it enough to quote.


Again, why does it matter? Just because you are not excited enough about it, does not mean everyone isn't. Summerslam was "dangled" in front of us for a while, had Raw's top guys against Nexus. Was great build up. Had the "Shock" of the mystery partner coming out, and the reaction when Cena won was pretty damn good, even if everyone didn't agree with it. Would you like me to pull up the video for you?


No, not a crime to want it. But pretty annoying when you blame PG for not having good enough Heels that fit your criteria.



You said that:

Well I see a whole bunch of Heels still. They may not be what you are use to. Kane draws heat. "Dashing" Cody draws heat, Drew draws heat. Vickie draws almost Vince style heat. And that's just the Smackdown side of things. They may not be the style of Heel you are accustom to, but they are this generations Heel.


Actually I do believe I did see the word "need" in the OP..




How about the crowd reaction here?
[YOUTUBE]v/H4PWxBpvWb4?fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]
I'd say for those fans, that had the same effect as Hogan/Goldberg did for the WCW ones. And that was only 4 years ago. You want newer? okay, lets say..
[YOUTUBE]v/soH7mbzw1AA?fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]
If you take into account how many people were there, thats a damn good reaction for a Face beating a big time Heel I'd say.. Especially for a Cena win.


I loved it in the 90's, the 2000's, and still do now. There's plenty to like as well. Jericho is a good heel, and has been for a few years now too. The only reason you hear so many Y2J chants, is because even when he wants you to hate him, people just love the guy. Is that the WWE's fault? I don't think so. He could come out on RAW tomorrow and punt a baby, still gong to have Y2J chants going on. I do understand what you are saying. Yes it would be cool to see things like that again. But the fact is, the game's changed now to the point that things like that are different.

1. The word Attitude was NEVER in my post stop lying to furthere your defense for current WWE
2. The OP never said NEED.
3. Your RVD video is at the Manhattan Center filled with die hard ECW fans give me a break and its a ECW based PPV.(ECW1NS)
4. Every smack down guy you named generates heat that is barely noticeable this whole post is based off of good/great heels, not heels that get heat for two seconds during the match, we are talking about people that get booed like crazy when their face is on the screen
5. Their is nothing wrong with wanting a heel that generates true heat and, hate.
6. I get it face/face works I went nuts for hbk/taker, cena/hbk on raw and mania.Im not saying WWE has a terrible product. We have not seen where the top 2 guys in the company are heel vs face , like the poster before said who is the top heel on raw you will get 5 different answers. And guess what maybe thats how WWE wants to run their show by have 5 or 6 heels on a level field and thats fine.... But if thats the case then yes im going to use the booking in this era, which happens to be PG, as the reason for the fans not seeing a match where their is a huge heel being dethroned by a face like the OP stated, because obviously WWE has no need for a Mega hell you said it yourself

"Well I see a whole bunch of Heels still. They may not be what you are use to. Kane draws heat. "Dashing" Cody draws heat, Drew draws heat. Vickie draws almost Vince style heat. And that's just the Smackdown side of things. They may not be the style of Heel you are accustom to, but they are this generations Heel."

If that is trully the case then I am fully correct for saying this era's booking is the reason we will not see a match with as much reaction and interest as a hogan vs goldberg. You have been proving my point for me non stop, you kept saying we dont need it, we dont need it. No one ever said we did the OP stated why we think we dont have anything of that nature. you stated it its this generations heel which obviously arent made to be hated and lead to a mega face off and thats fine because the WWE is going to do what they want but dont get your pants tight when people say its because of the booking in the eras because thats the exact reason and you admit through your posts

 

[The Viper Orton]

I thought CM punk would rise on par to The Evolution Triple H or NWO Hulk Hogan heels that dominate for a minimum of 6 months. But those writers (yeah I blame them), making CM punk look weak and silly loosing alot of handicap matches against Big Show made this uunthinkable. He need to step on Big Show, Go for another great feud and beat him and Build him up to defeat someone like Randy Orton at wrestle Mania to start the era of CM Punk, then it would be legit. But anyways, I can't see barret as big as the two mentioned above, I don't actually think he'll do more than his Pro Chris Jericho

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I glanced through this thread briefly, saw a lot of slap fights, and as a result just decided to read the OP and react / offer my opinion. I totally understand the concern about the lack of heels in the WWE right now, and it lends to my one massive concern:

I'm worried that the WWE is overvaluing the entire Nexus group as heels.

For right now, watching babyfaces like Cena and Orton - and even heels like Jericho, Edge, and Sheamus - work against the elements of Nexus has worked fine. The storyline damn sure makes sense. But of the remaining members of Nexus (now that Darren Young is a face I suppose and Skip Sheffield in hurt) have only 3 actual natural heels among them. Wade Barrett is a brilliant heel worker and will do fine. David Otunga and Michael Tarver are natural heels, but they're still green and need seasoning. I keep expecting WWE to make them a tag team to challenge the Harts.

But beyond that, Darren Young and Justin Gabriel are just not heels. They are working as heels as long as thr group makes sense, but when the Nexus angle starts to fizzle, both these guys are truly babyfaces - especially Gabriel. He has a fresh, clean face and a high flying finisher. Crowds WANT to pop for this guy. He would lack the heel tendencies to make him successful as a single heel.

Sheamus and Edge are solid heel characters, so I'm not overly worried - as long as the WWE doesn't think the 5 guys left in Nexus will ALL be top heels in a year.

On Smackdown, it's definitely an issue. The McIntyre push has stalled a touch, which is a damn shame. Kane is doing a nice job, but still his Undertaker feud is overshadowing the World Title.

I'm not worried about CM Punk. He has made a career in WWE out of "meaningless losses," and by that I mean he'll lose a match and rebound from the loss faster that ANYONE. When he loses, he doesn't lose heat. Three weeks before he cashed in his first MITB, he lost clean to The Miz on ECW - when the Miz was a virtual nobody. If I've seen one thing from CM Punk, it's that he's talented and crafty enough to be able to rebound from any loss and beat anyone on any night.

Top heels are missing, but it's tough when the usual heels - Orton and Edge, for example - are so over with the crowd and sell so much merch. When Triple H returns, it's one more in the hole. McIntyre, Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, and del Rio need to step up fast and grab the "brass ring" that the lack of heel depth has created. Do that, and your spot in WWE is safe.

 

[Hazardous]

1. The word Attitude was NEVER in my post stop lying to furthere your defense for current WWE

you complained about the PG era. What came before it?

2. The OP never said NEED.

He did, I even quoted it in my last post. Wasn't all in caps, but still said need.

3. Your RVD video is at the Manhattan Center filled with die hard ECW fans give me a break and its a ECW based PPV.(ECW1NS)

And Goldberg/Hogan took place in front of WCW diehards. Difference being?

4. Every smack down guy you named generates heat that is barely noticeable this whole post is based off of good/great heels, not heels that get heat for two seconds during the match, we are talking about people that get booed like crazy when their face is on the screen

Take a listen..
[YOUTUBE]v/dxpprs_CCVU?fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]
Are you saying that heat is not noticable? As I said, near Vince like heat.

5. Their is nothing wrong with wanting a heel that generates true heat and, hate.

You're right, there's not. But we do have a couple.

6. I get it face/face works I went nuts for hbk/taker, cena/hbk on raw and mania.Im not saying WWE has a terrible product. We have not seen where the top 2 guys in the company are heel vs face , like the poster before said who is the top heel on raw you will get 5 different answers. And guess what maybe thats how WWE wants to run their show by have 5 or 6 heels on a level field and thats fine.... But if thats the case then yes im going to use the booking in this era, which happens to be PG, as the reason for the fans not seeing a match where their is a huge heel being dethroned by a face like the OP stated, because obviously WWE has no need for a Mega hell you said it yourself

Well is that such a bad thing though? I mean, I know what you're saying.. But whats wrong with having 5 or 6 big heels? Does this not add a little more flavor to it? More match combination possible

If that is trully the case then I am fully correct for saying this era's booking is the reason we will not see a match with as much reaction and interest as a hogan vs goldberg. You have been proving my point for me non stop, you kept saying we dont need it, we dont need it. No one ever said we did the OP stated why we think we dont have anything of that nature. you stated it its this generations heel which obviously arent made to be hated and lead to a mega face off and thats fine because the WWE is going to do what they want but dont get your pants tight when people say its because of the booking in the eras because thats the exact reason and you admit through your posts

I did provide an example of a crowd reaction for the good guy winning, and you shot it down because it was ECW? Why? ECW was every bit as important to their fans, as WCW was to theirs. The Cena winning at 'Mania was another big time good guy, beating the bad guy of the show (could have been the top heel at the time as well) and that was only this year. Again, the fan's went nuts. A Batista promo would generate a shit ton of heat as well. You're saying this era ruined the Heel, and crowd reaction for a big win, well I've provided you with an example of each right there.

 

[papahut420]

the heels are still there. the crowds have changed. i have always been one who would cheer for the badguys at live events to tick off the crowd. i think that nowadays people still like to cheer for the heels but the heels arent as hated as before. i can remember heels being attacked by fans after beating some face and some needing police escorts out of town. heels today do not go to the extent as in the old days to really be hated.

 

[mrbooker]

you complained about the PG era. What came before it?

Yea I stated the PG era is to blame. What came before it????
idk maybe all the years years after wrestlemania 17 when the attitude era ended, WWE still had great TV in between then, the draft lottery was implemented, Eric bischoff came to raw, guys like Chris beniot, Eddie Guerrero, edge, and brock lesnar got pushes,Evolution was created, creating Batista and Randy Orton, Goldberg came to WWE, HBK came back won the elimination chamber for the title and stayed for another 8 years the list goes on !!!! Sorry im not someone who blames the booking of the PG era because I can't let the attitude era go, I blame it because its mediocre to the body of work the WWE use to represent.

Back to the topic at hand since you will continue to avoid the truth the point of the thread, and try and just stick up for PG as much as possible. I mean REALLY? You want to post a vicki Guerrero when everyone was been talking about heel wrestlers.

As was said by papahut420 heels don't go to that extent anymore, but how about some heel action WWE wants to have these heels who like drew, or cody rhodes, or ted d and they aren't doing anything to make me as a viewer believe wow this is one bad dude, they get on the mic make some smart remarks and then have a match.

Minus Shemus taking out triple H no heel on the WWE roster has gotten heat and kept it going. Sure Drew with his "Mcmahon's choosen one" could have been golden, what he had with the IC was good and it faded, Ted with his dad's money angle could have been golden then it falls to he is just another wrestler on the roster, Dashing cody rhodes, is like a second rate miz full of himself but hasn't proved anything that doesn't make him come across as a heel it makes him come across as a loser.

Ted, Cm Punk, Edge, even drew could be a goood heel instead all these guys are lost in a shuffle or jobbing to the big show, why in the hell Cm Punk is jobing to big show right now one has to wonder?

 

[HBKevin]

Vickie Guerrero gets an incredible amount of boos. I said excuse me! She's not a wrestler but still. CM Punk always gets heel heat. Jericho always does in his promos, but gets some cheers in his matches, because he's that good.

The crowd gets angry every time Nexus interrupts and beats someone down, even though some N shirts are appearing in the crowd. It's just not the same type of crowd as in the 80s with Hogan, or even the 90s with nWo Hogan. Stone Cold and tweeners, along with the Internet, changed things.