Attention IWC! Heels suck. Get over it.

[ckoneagain]

Just gota point something out here, Heels and Faces aren't as cut and dry as 'good' and 'bad' guys, i mean the undertaker...pretty big face right? but he's a bad guy, he takes people's souls and sends them to hell and what not, Stone Cold, pretty bad guy, he just beats people up who he doesn't like and drinks like a fish. Then look at CM Punk, he's a heel because he runs a group who don't drink, do drugs and have a moral code and stuff, the list could go on...and on! But the point is, i think a heel can be cheered and still be a heel and i think a face can be booed and still be a face.

 

[DownwardSpiral]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that Slyfox is making. Not to speak on his behalf, but I think his point is largely a case of semantics anyway. His point is not that you cannot cheer for whoever you want, because of course you can. I think his point is that if you are cheering for someone who is a heel, then technically they are not functioning as a heel, because the job of the heel is to get booed. In other words, you can be a fan of, say, the Miz if you want to (as I have become) and that's obviously your perogative, but if you do cheer for the Miz and hope he wins his matches, then technically speaking, he's no longer a true heel, he's a borderline face/tweener with an attitude.

The lines between heel and face are murkier now than they used to be anyway. Guys like SCSA had such heelish components to their characters, but were over with the fans to an unbelievable degree, which by default made them faces. Same goes for when Taker goes through his "heelish" phases, acting all evil and demonic, but being cheered and getting louder and larger pops than anyone.

Heels, by their strict definition, do suck. But the line between the two is blurrier than ever. Randy Orton was a heel who did such things as punt to the head, and was booed and villified for it. Now he does the exact same moves but as a face, and gets cheered for it. Was it wrong to cheer for Randy Orton when he was a heel and did such things, obviously no, you can cheer for whoever you want, no matter how ridiculous. Hell, you can even cheer for TNA if you want to, to each their own. But I think Sly's point is that once people started cheering FOR Orton, rather than AGAINST him, he was no longer a heel; he became a tweener first which has since transitioned into outright face.

I understand that somewhere in the OP, Slyfox had some point. But it went to shit the second he started throwing insults in there. Insulting people who have a different view of something than he does does not get his point across. It just makes him come off as a wrestling elitist prick who is stuck in the old era of professional wrestling.

Just my two cents anyway. Wrestling is a subjective topic. So many different ways to view it. There is no real wrong way. Even if its still real to me, damnit!

 

[Ultra Awesome]

I think his point is that if you are cheering for someone who is a heel, then technically they are not functioning as a heel, because the job of the heel is to get booed.

Really? Was that his point because then I must have gotten the wrong idea seeing as how he is giving somewhat of a "scolding" to people that enjoy watching heels.

And quit saying you like heels, because you sound like an idiot.

That tells me otherwise. But I agree with you on just about everything you said. It makes very clear sense. Heels are ment to suck while faces are ment to be cool, but that shouldn't stop you from liking them it only means that technically, they are not heels. But, in my opinion, I believe Slyfox is getting sick and tired of all the "change him heel" threads. In that part, I do agree with him...but its his reasons that I don't agree so much.

 

[Razael_Osirus]

You will like who we want you to like. You will cheer only for those who we say you can cheer for.
Who cares if you personally like a wrestler (i.e. Orton, MVP, Miz), its not what they want you to do. Your stupid if you don't hate your favorite wrestlers, simply because he isn't supposed to be "Dudley Do Right".
Conform everyone, throw away your personalities, and just sit down and do exactly as your told, like obviously your supposed to.
Or just cheer for who you like. Some wrestlers are much better at portraying a certain character, and when thrown on the opposing team, just really doesn't play out well.
Not every wrestler is the Rock, or Stone Cold.

 

[realdealasshole]

I don't even know where to begin with correcting the first statement on this thread. So I'm just going to state my case for heels:

Yes, the faces are what draw. But here's the thing, a heel would be nothing without the face. The Rock was great, but what made him winning the title over HHH as a face so great is that HHH, as the heel, won almost every time. People wanted to see the Rock overcome him. So that situation (and there's dozens more just like it) proves the power of heels winning and that, unlike what you said, faces most definitely should not win every time. In fact, they should win less so that they can become even greater faces.

 

[CyDeez]

What the fuck is wrong with so many of you? It seems like your answer for everything boring is "turn him heel". Or, and this one is popular, "if he'd turn heel, I'd like him a lot more". Why? Are you all so incompetent as to see that heels suck? Do you twits even understand what the term "heel" means? How can you like a heel? It doesn't make any sense.

What gets me is your complaining about other people’s thoughts or opinions. That sounds like more of a definition of a twit than someone expressing their own ideas. How can you determine if it is correct or intelligent for someone to like a Heel? It has nothing to do with what Heel means. A Heel in Pro Wrestling or LIFE is someone’s persona. So maybe someone likes that Persona better than that of a Face.

LOL @ your Heels suck comment. Just one opinion in a world full of opinions that mean nothing, sound stupid and will soon disappear from my thought process all together! Now because SlyFox says Heels suck, I guess I rank as a Twit because I like Chris Jericho and he sucks because he is a Heel. TSK TSK TSK!!

1) Faces are what draws. No one pays to see bad people, if they did, prison would be a fucking carny show.

Assume you are 100% right… Then why do people watch the shows? I can tell you this… I DO NOT watch the show for John Cena. So, what draws me to WATCH the show period? One of the Faces? Khali? Bourne? Truth? Nope, Nope, and umm… NOPE! Sure Orton is amidst a Face or Tweener run at this point, and he is a HUGE part of why I watch, with him being my favorite and what not. But he was my favorite when he was a Heel as well. So Orton as a Heel or Face makes no difference to me.

In all honesty, the guys I consider the BEST, also happen to be Heels at this point. Jericho, Edge, The Miz, Etc…

2) Heels are supposed to be disliked. If you don't dislike them, they're not really a heel, now are they? And for the ignorant people out there, "heel" is not just a wrestling term, it's an actual word. Look up the meaning, and then see why you sound like a moron when you say you like a heel.

I am well versed in the definition of words regarding the wrestling business, as well as “The Real World”. If I like them, they are not a Heel anymore? Once again, it goes back to their PERSONA! Maybe I like his actions as a Heel more than his actions as a Face. LOL @ YOU calling anyone’s opinions, ignorant!

3) Good guys always beat bad guys. This isn't just in wrestling, this is in all forms of popular media in America, and probably around the world. People always whine about how John Cena wins matches...well, no fucking duh, he's a good guy, and the good guy should always win at the end of the day.

John Cena is a different comparison… He is THE Face of the company. But I completely disagree that all Faces win in the end.

Quick example for you… Did Truth win in the end against The Miz? Hmm… NO! Who wins in the end is not determined by who is a “good guy” and who is a “bad guy”… It is determined by the push those particular guys are receiving. Who goes further is basically decided by who they expect to go further.

4) Heels win only so a bigger face can beat them. This is very important, and what so many of you don't understand. If a heel is made to look strong, it's ONLY so a face gets a bigger reaction when he beats him. This idea that a heel is getting buried is complete nonsense because THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT!

Talk about ignorant… So, Mr. Genius… The Miz is only receiving a push so he can ultimately get smashed in the end by a “bigger” Face? Oh ok… Thank you for enlightening me. I will just STOP cheering for him now since he will eventually lose to a bigger Face.

Jesus, I hope Orton never turns Heel again. Why? Because I wouldn’t want to look like an ignorant twit going for him to win, when a BIGGER Face beats him at the end of the feud he is in!

I'm sure there are other things I could admonish those in the IWC on, but this is a start. For those of you who actually thought heels matter for a reason other than to get a face over, post your shame here. And quit saying you like heels, because you sound like an idiot.

Speaking of sounding like an idiot… Your post is one of the most one-sided, biased, idiotic, nonsense based posts I have EVER fucking read!

I think most people just want a change for THAT certain guy they are talking about. Cena for example, is considered the stale of the stale to a lot of people. So what could change the guy's whole persona? A Heel turn.

I think it's truly funny you try to diagnose why people feel the way they do about anything... Who the fuck are you to lump everyone in the same boat, under your ideas?

Faces are not always the guy that wins in the end. Sure Cena is one example in your flawed post that could be correct. But actually, the one who is receiving the push or bigger push at the time is the one that wins in the end.

It is well known around the world in more than just Pro Wrestling, that people cheer for the bad guy. Why? Maybe they like the bad guy’s actions and/or attitude more. Rebellion is in the air son, and sometimes that is a driving force behind people’s ideas and opinions!

Good thing Ric Flair was never a Heel, he might have been fed to Sting and other… Oh wait… Ric Flair spent most of his career as a Heel.

That was a bad example, Hulk Hogan. Here we go… It’s a good thing he never turned Heel and like, joined The NWO or anything, because that would have ruined his career. He could never have drawn anyone as a Heel. He… Oh wait… Hogan turning Heel was one of the biggest moments ever.

So now, everyone that liked, cheered and wanted to see Steve Austin in 1996, was an ignorant twit and does not understand the meaning of words as sufficiently as SlyFox does. LOL… What a damn joke this thread is.

 

[Nikeo]

Just because the PG writing staff want everybody to hate the character doesn NOT mean that the UNRATED IWC can like who they want for whatever resons they want.

You're right! Those damn PG writers trying to make us boo the heels, the attitude writing staff surely didn't expect us to boo heels like Mr. McMahon or Triple H for their heelish antics.

The PG writing staff did not invent the "boo the heel, cheer the face" philosophy, that has been around for decades. For goodness sake, if you want to moan about PG at least blame it for something logical.

On the other argument, I would argue that people are entitled to cheer for who they want so long as they pay for their ticket. However, people who think it makes them cool and rebellious to cheer heels and do so "to be different" are complete and utter idiots. Of course, these are the same the same people who complain about people "who cheer for whoever Vince McMahon tells them to". I fear they don't see the irony in that. If you cheer a heel (as I have on occasion) because you enjoy their work, promos and persona then that is your right. It all depends on WHY you cheer an individual, if it's to be cool then you ARE an idiot, if it's because you like the individual it's fine in my book. A lot of people bring up Chris Jericho in this thread, a man who has often spoke about the dangers of "cool heels" and has stated that a heel should always be a coward at heart, not somebody who gains the admiration of the audience. Something to bear in mind.

I will concur that technically if a heel is being cheered they are not doing their job right. Steve Austin and to a lesser extent Orton are the exceptions that prove the rule, not something a mold promoters should aim to follow (imo). A heel should not aim to get massive cheers from the crowd and if that is what they're trying to do then they're failing at their job and the same thing applies to the faces.

The one thing that somebody in this thread said that cannot be disputed is a principle shared in movies, television shows and books. Any victory a bad guy gets should build them up in the reader/viewer's eyes, make them look evil and strong so that the good guy that eventually takes them down is made to look like a million bucks. JBL's reign of terror being ended by Cena is what propelled him to megastar status. That was the purpose of JBL's reign. A heel should never be built to make himself, it should always be so that he puts over a babyface down the line.

 

[Jaims]

I really liked Kane's promo last week. Am I an idiot?

I hate Khali. Do I sound like an idiot?

Chris Jericho is entertaining. Stupid comment?

Chris Masters is terribly boring in the ring. Blasphemy?

Saying that cheering for a heel is being stupid is missing some of the intricacies of why people actually enjoy some of these guys in a heel role. Yes, cheering for Jericho when he's calling you a parasite is pretty stupid. But I'll be damned if I don't get excited for a match involving him, because he just makes everyone around him look great. And if Khali or Masters comes out for a match, I'm going to roll my eyes. There is no reason for me to cheer for these guys. Similarly, I am not going to boo McIntyre since I find him qutie boring. Realistically, you cannot expect all viewers to follow the face/heel division so closely, some guys just straight up suck in their roles.

I do want Cena to turn heel. Why? Because I am not entertained by him in a face role anymore. I need a change of pace to be interested with him anymore. On the flipside, I want the Miz to turn face, as he is very entertaining and would be a great "underdog" style face to cheer for considering the path he took to get where he is in the company today. I don't think it is ridiculous to ask those things of the WWE. "But what about all the merchandise Cena sells, gasp!!!!!????" Orton will make up the difference, and so will every other superstar that gets placed in a top face role. Kids will always want merch of the guys who are on top at that moment.

Ultimately, heels are going to lose their feuds, sure. But ultimately, the face that won the feud is going to lose their title/pride/etc at the start of HIS next feud. It's all cyclical. Why can't I be entertained by a heel during the course of a story, even if I know he's going to lose in the end?

And what about Mr. Orton? This guy was a totally evil heel even in the months preceding his face turn. Then, he turns face and changes.....nothing about his character. He is still the Viper. He is still setting up the punt to the head. His character is still a heel, he's just now beating down guys that the viewers hate even more. Orton is a perfect example of how heels can draw crowds, as he would have fans at every event cheering for him. The WWE recognized that, turned him face (barely) and boom...instant success.

Overall, I think heels tend to be more entertaining because faces have so little to work with in terms of character development. There are not many variations on being "good" but a heck of a lot more on being "bad".

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I don't even know where to begin with correcting the first statement on this thread. So I'm just going to state my case for heels:

Yes, the faces are what draw. But here's the thing, a heel would be nothing without the face. The Rock was great, but what made him winning the title over HHH as a face so great is that HHH, as the heel, won almost every time. People wanted to see the Rock overcome him. So that situation (and there's dozens more just like it) proves the power of heels winning and that, unlike what you said, faces most definitely should not win every time. In fact, they should win less so that they can become even greater faces.

They do win less and less in the duration of a feud. A perfect example is the Cena/Batista feud where Batista beat him in the Elimination Chamber. Then it seemed like every week Batista got the best of Cena and John finally overcame that at Wrestlemania. Faces should come out on top no matter what. It's been that way for years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

I definitely think the WWE has been pushing too many heels lately. They've also been booking their faces like shit. They've got like 10 cocky heels they're pushing right now, but they really need to start developing their future Main Event Babyfaces.

There's only like 3 faces in the WWE they're really pushing besides Orton and Cena. Kofi, Daniel Bryan, and Kaval.

Look at who's holding the belts. With the exception of the Hart Dynasty, who don't really get much airtime and Melina who just won her title. Every title holder in the WWE is a heel.

 

[Justin Satiable]

No, it just didn't 'go' out in the 80's or even the 90's. It was sadly forced out by jackasses like you, thinking you know better than a man who globalized the WWE and turned it into a promotional juggernaut. Yeah he doesn't know what he is doing. So let's act like jackasses and boo faces and cheer heels, cause we know what's best for the WWE. I still enjoy the good guy vs. bad guy, I loved watching Orton lose to Cena, but I also loved watching him win because I knew it meant that the feud was still going, however in the end Cena needed to win because as Sly said in the end the good guy wins.



Explain further please. I don't know what you are trying to get at.



Face = good guy, heel = bad guy, so yes they still mean something, you just have to follow that and want to be entertained by it, to know what the meaning is. So 'God' stop being a smark and enjoy the fucking show.

I've never intended to be a smark, but this is just what the internet does. The internet changed the outlook I had on wrestling, and in a sense, it has infact ruined it for me. I also enjoy goodguy vs badguy, but to a lot of fans it really just doesn't come down to that anymore. Not everyone is gonna get booed just because they act like a "badguy." They can try, but even heels get cheers, without making a face turn. The system isn't that simple.

I cheer for the guys who entertain me, or appeal to me (in a wrestling sense ). Someone who can make me want to watch the next episode apart from out of simple obligation.

Also, sorry for the outburst, but why is it neccessary to kick up such a fuss just because someone feels differently opinionated, getting angry just because people enjoy to see the badguys more than the goodguys. People are allowed to have favourite characters in TV shows, so don't just go about calling them wrong.

 

[Karaoke Superstar]

1) Faces are what draws. No one pays to see bad people, if they did, prison would be a fucking carny show.

Wrong. People watch to see them get their asses kicked. Without a bad guy there would be no good guy and who would watch? Gorgeous George once told Ali "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth." and he was right.

2) Heels are supposed to be disliked. If you don't dislike them, they're not really a heel, now are they? And for the ignorant people out there, "heel" is not just a wrestling term, it's an actual word. Look up the meaning, and then see why you sound like a moron when you say you like a heel.

Yes your right, but we can still appreciate someone being good at their job now can't we?

3) Good guys always beat bad guys. This isn't just in wrestling, this is in all forms of popular media in America, and probably around the world. People always whine about how John Cena wins matches...well, no fucking duh, he's a good guy, and the good guy should always win at the end of the day.

But every match? That's exactly how they were booking him a while back, and it really just made for boring feuds. The bad guy needs to win every now and then.

4) Heels win only so a bigger face can beat them. This is very important, and what so many of you don't understand. If a heel is made to look strong, it's ONLY so a face gets a bigger reaction when he beats him. This idea that a heel is getting buried is complete nonsense because THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT!

Yes you are right, everyone gets that. Maybe some people just naturally like assholes so they like heels instead, maybe they pull for the Joker to beat batman in the movie theater, that is just their preference. I can appreciate a wrestler doing a good job as a heel and can be entertained by them in that role.

I'm sure there are other things I could admonish those in the IWC on, but this is a start. For those of you who actually thought heels matter for a reason other than to get a face over, post your shame here. And quit saying you like heels, because you sound like an idiot.

You could argue that heels only exist to get faces over, then you can argue that faces only exist to beat heels. The fact is that we need both.

 

[realdealasshole]

They do win less and less in the duration of a feud. A perfect example is the Cena/Batista feud where Batista beat him in the Elimination Chamber. Then it seemed like every week Batista got the best of Cena and John finally overcame that at Wrestlemania. Faces should come out on top no matter what. It's been that way for years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

You just restated exactly what I was trying to say. That may have been my fault though for not being clear that I was saying, that's the way it is and that it works.

However, Triple H came out on top against the Rock in 2000. They met at Wrestlemania and HHH took the victory even then. People were pissed. Threw crap into the ring. Some fans I know even stopped watching wrestling altogether after that. Yeah, Rock won at Backlash, but really, Wrestlemania is where he should have won and that's why HHH came out on top. But that's definitely an exception to the rule.

My point is, heels don't suck at all. Heels make faces. Faces don't exist without heels, at least not good drawing ones anyways.

 

[cawsnallthis]

To say that heels don't draw money is absolutely ludicrous!! Let's look at the biggest stars and the biggest angles of the last 30 years, shall we? Hogan knocked around the business for years before Hulkamania was fired by the heel heat of the Iron Sheik and was fanned through multiple Wrestlemanias by the quintessential heel, Roddy Piper. Ric Flair carried the NWA for decades, mostly as a heel. The Monday Night Wars were ignited behind the popularity of a heel faction, the NWO, which drew money for the company at unprecedented levels and nearly drove Vince out of business! He was saved from the trash heap by a maverick heel, whose character blossomed into Stone Cold success. Rocky Maivia as a face was harangued with chants of "Rocky sucks", which is because he did. A heel turn brought us the Rock and the biggest success story in the history of the business! Pro Wrestling as we know it today was molded, transformed and driven by heels, and to say they don't draw makes you sound ignorant and misinformed. But, I guess that was unavoidable, wasn't it?

 

[TheLegenD87]

What the fuck is wrong with so many of you? It seems like your answer for everything boring is "turn him heel". Or, and this one is popular, "if he'd turn heel, I'd like him a lot more". Why? Are you all so incompetent as to see that heels suck? Do you twits even understand what the term "heel" means? How can you like a heel? It doesn't make any sense.

1) Faces are what draws. No one pays to see bad people, if they did, prison would be a fucking carny show.

2) Heels are supposed to be disliked. If you don't dislike them, they're not really a heel, now are they? And for the ignorant people out there, "heel" is not just a wrestling term, it's an actual word. Look up the meaning, and then see why you sound like a moron when you say you like a heel.

3) Good guys always beat bad guys. This isn't just in wrestling, this is in all forms of popular media in America, and probably around the world. People always whine about how John Cena wins matches...well, no fucking duh, he's a good guy, and the good guy should always win at the end of the day.

4) Heels win only so a bigger face can beat them. This is very important, and what so many of you don't understand. If a heel is made to look strong, it's ONLY so a face gets a bigger reaction when he beats him. This idea that a heel is getting buried is complete nonsense because THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT!



I'm sure there are other things I could admonish those in the IWC on, but this is a start. For those of you who actually thought heels matter for a reason other than to get a face over, post your shame here. And quit saying you like heels, because you sound like an idiot.

Honestly, this thread is pointless. If I go to a WWE event, and I PAY for MY ticket, I cheer for who I WANT TO CHEER! This is not the 80s no more, as a matter a fact that's not even the point. The point is just one word and one word only, RESPECT. We have guys like Edge, Jericho, The Miz, Orton (before being face/tweener) etc, who have been going out there for years, putting on a great show. These guys have incredible wrestling abilities and have great mic skills. They risk their bodys everytime they step into that square circle , and you are telling me I look like an idiot if I cheer them? Are you kidding me? You have to respect and cheer these guys. Heel, Face Or Tweener, if you are good and you make me sit down for 2 or 3 hours and keep me glued on the tv, just to see you put on a show, you are getting cheered no matter what. There are no damn "fan rules" out here. Everybody is entitled to cheer who they want to cheer and THAT'S THE POINT! So if Triple H ends his career being a heel, and when he gets inducted to the Hall of Fame, everybody that is clapping when he comes out for his speech is an idiot?! You make no sense sly, we in 2010 not 1989. This thread is ridiculous.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Honestly, this thread is pointless. If I go to a WWE event, and I PAY for MY ticket, I cheer for who I WANT TO CHEER! This is not the 80s no more, as a matter a fact that's not even the point. The point is just one word and one word only, RESPECT. We have guys like Edge, Jericho, The Miz, Orton (before being face/tweener) etc, who have been going out there for years, putting on a great show. These guys have incredible wrestling abilities and have great mic skills. They risk their bodys everytime they step into that square circle , and you are telling me I look like an idiot if I cheer them? Are you kidding me? You have to respect and cheer these guys. Heel, Face Or Tweener, if you are good and you make me sit down for 2 or 3 hours and keep me glued on the tv, just to see you put on a show, you are getting cheered no matter what. There are no damn "fan rules" out here. Everybody is entitled to cheer who they want to cheer and THAT'S THE POINT! So if Triple H ends his career being a heel, and when he gets inducted to the Hall of Fame, everybody that is clapping when he comes out for his speech is an idiot?! You make no sense sly, we in 2010 not 1989. This thread is ridiculous.

If you think this thread is pointless, then you posting in it makes you pointless as well. You know how you can respect a heel? By booing them. People earn respect by doing the job they are supposed to do greatly and be recognized by their peers. When a heel gets booed, it shows that he is doing his job correctly and is respected by his fellow wrestlers.

For shame.

 

[D-Will316]

I cheer for the person that I relate to the most. And boo whomever I can't stand. So If I want to cheer for somebody like Jack Swagger for instance maybe it's because I can relate to him (not that I do I'm just making an example)

 

[TheLegenD87]

If you think this thread is pointless, then you posting in it makes you pointless as well. You know how you can respect a heel? By booing them. People earn respect by doing the job they are supposed to do greatly and be recognized by their peers. When a heel gets booed, it shows that he is doing his job correctly and is respected by his fellow wrestlers.

For shame.

First of all, if u think I'm pointless, why respond to me? Second of all, Idc what you say, nobody was even talking to you. I show respect in the way I wanna show respect, and that's cheering them. Who are you to even dare and try to tell ne how to show respect, you gotta be kidding me. If you wanna boo heels and say "you suck" and say that's respect, well go ahead. Pretty damn weird but go ahead. This is fucking hilarious, how people are trying to force other people how to cheer wrestlers. RIDICULOUS

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

First of all, if u think I'm pointless, why respond to me? Second of all, Idc what you say, nobody was even talking to you. I show respect in the way I wanna show respect, and that's cheering them. Who are you to even dare and try to tell ne how to show respect, you gotta be kidding me. If you wanna boo heels and say "you suck" and say that's respect, well go ahead. Pretty damn weird but go ahead. This is fucking hilarious, how people are trying to force other people how to cheer wrestlers. RIDICULOUS

How is it weird. Do I have to spell it out for you?

A heel's job is to get booed so that when the face beats them, the face will be cheered.

By booing a heel, it shows that the heel is doing his job correctly.

That is how you "cheer" a heel. By booing them.

Is any of this registering in your brain?

 

[Slyfox696]

I tend to prefer heels because I honestly think it's harder to play a heel.

1) You obviously don't know what the word "heel" means. Look it up.

2) Most wrestlers say it's far easier to play heel than face, since you have so much more creative freedom.


So basically, your post sucks. Try again Opie.

You're going to hate on people like me who are generally entertained more by heels than faces because the general belief is that "heels aren't supposed to be liked"? I'm sorry, but no one is going to tell me that there is a rule that tells me who I should and shouldn't like in wrestling.

How the fuck can you read my opening post, and then proceed to tell me you like a heel? Go look up the fucking word and see what it means. It has nothing to do with telling you who you should like, shut kindly shut the fuck up with that stuff. Learn the fucking definition of the word.

Don't be an idiot again.

Not neccesaraly true. Heels (in my opinion) can draw, because they want to see the face beat them down.

No, it's very true. Faces draw, not heels. It's why ALL of the biggest draws in wrestling history have been good guys.

The notion that a heel draws is a myth.

But why should that stop someone being entertained by a heel?

Look up the definition of the word and you'll have your answer.

Good fucking Lord, am I the only person with a dictionary at the ready?

Grrr....that darn IWC, that I'm sooo not a part of in anyway! I hate them! I hate the IWC soo much! It's a good thing I'M BETTER than the IWC! Because I KNOW wrestling waaay more than them....stupid IWC.

I was about to laugh, but then I realized your comment was neither funny nor original.

Try again Sparky.

I think people loving heels is more for the fact that they want to be bad ass cheering for the bad guy. I guess its gotta make them feel like more of a man.

Possibly the smartest thing any person other than me in this thread as said. I guess being "counter culture" makes you cooler or something.

Have to disagree.

Then I have to inform you that you are wrong.

At the end of the day, the faces are what draw money, not the heels. Heels get built up just so faces can go over. It's wrestling business 101.

This. Is. Rediculous.

So is your spelling of ridiculous.

Have you ever noticed when people like different music, foods, anything in this whole damn world?! We're allowed to like what our own personality attracts us to.

I refuse to read the rest of your post, because I already know what it will contain.

And also because you have NO fucking clue what the word "heel" actually means. Look it up, Junior.



Wow, I'm only to Post 13 and I'm tired of dealing with the idiocy.





Do yourself a favor. Take the advice I gave in my first post and actually look up the meaning of the word heel BEFORE you tell me you have a right to like a heel.

I think a lot of people are missing the point that Slyfox is making. Not to speak on his behalf, but I think his point is largely a case of semantics anyway. His point is not that you cannot cheer for whoever you want, because of course you can. I think his point is that if you are cheering for someone who is a heel, then technically they are not functioning as a heel, because the job of the heel is to get booed. In other words, you can be a fan of, say, the Miz if you want to (as I have become) and that's obviously your perogative, but if you do cheer for the Miz and hope he wins his matches, then technically speaking, he's no longer a true heel, he's a borderline face/tweener with an attitude.

EDIT: I've decided to add this into my post, because this is as close as I've seen to someone getting it right.


However, add in the fact that the very definition of the word heel is a person that you find to be despicable and contemptible, and then you can understand why you can't like a heel. If you like a heel, then they aren't really a heel.

I can't believe I actually just told people what they should have looked up for themselves. I'm a big softy in my own age.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

I've never intended to be a smark, but this is just what the internet does. The internet changed the outlook I had on wrestling, and in a sense, it has infact ruined it for me. I also enjoy goodguy vs badguy, but to a lot of fans it really just doesn't come down to that anymore. Not everyone is gonna get booed just because they act like a "badguy." They can try, but even heels get cheers, without making a face turn. The system isn't that simple.

I know not everyone is going to get booed because they are heel or cheered because they are a face, that's just the way it is, but it shouldn't be is what I am getting at. You don't have to like the faces, that's fine, but don't boo them, that doesn't make people look cool, or make them stand out, it makes them look stupid. Don't do anything if you don't like them. I can't stand Rey Mysterio, so I don't cheer him, but I also don't boo him. Also if the internet ruined wrestling for you, don't read the things that did. I don't read spoilers on the main site or the forum. I don't read storyline plans that often even. So to me there is still a mystery to it for me and I enjoy it.

I cheer for the guys who entertain me, or appeal to me (in a wrestling sense ). Someone who can make me want to watch the next episode apart from out of simple obligation.

I can understand why you cheer the guys who entertain you, I can, I love Randy Orton and when he was a heel it was hard not to cheer him, but I booed him, I literally loved to hate him. I didn't really hate him, but I booed him because I wanted him to know that he was doing job of making the fans not like him, but I also wouldn't turn down his autograph or not buy his shirt.

Also, sorry for the outburst, but why is it neccessary to kick up such a fuss just because someone feels differently opinionated, getting angry just because people enjoy to see the badguys more than the goodguys. People are allowed to have favourite characters in TV shows, so don't just go about calling them wrong.

You're right, I apologize too, there is definitely a good way to debate this and I didn't start it off that way, I attacked instead of just making my valid points. Again sorry. I'm not angry people enjoy seeing the bad guys more than the good guys sometimes, I'm like that, but I'll still boo the bad guys even if I like them and cheer the good guys, if I don't like them though, I'll just be quiet. That's just me though.

 

[Clark Kent]

However, add in the fact that the very definition of the word heel is a person that you find to be despicable and contemptible, and then you can understand why you can't like a heel. If you like a heel, then they aren't really a heel.

The definition of "heel" is someone who is despicable and contemptible. If it was "a person that you find despicable and contemptible," then Randy Orton wouldn't be a face right now. Meaning, it's all opinion. He was getting cheered and was thus forced by the WWE to turn, even though he's even stated he didn't want to. Now, I completely understand this argument, as I don't even cheer for heels. However, you have to take into consideration that someone might actually like the antics of a heel or the persons character.

I agree with most of what's been said, but to tell someone they're an idiot for liking someone they should hate is kind of ridiculous. It's totally possbile to like a heels character, in ring ability, and promo skills just as much as a face. I do agree with the fact that faces draw more, without question, but people pay to see who that face is gonna beat as well. I honestly could not stand JBL when he was around. The reason I wacthed every pay per view during his lengthly title run was to see him lose. I couldn't care less who beat him. Another thing you gotta look at is, yes, some people love heels, but some also just love to boo them. In my opinion there isn't much difference because it shows that person is doing a great job at what they're doing.

That last point might be slightly off topic, but I'm just saying why, IMO, it's ok to like a heel if you want.

 

[Dave]

Over the last 6 months, I have tried to be a better WWE fan and try not to be an example of the typical WWE fan. You hear it all the time from TNA marks who say that “whatever Vince McMahon puts out, you will love it”. Now, whilst I think that is utter bullshit, I have been trying to be more of an “innocent” fan. “Innocent” in regards to being a fan who will boo heels and cheer for the faces. Overall, I have been greatly successful in this endeavour and I honestly think that it makes the product all the more enjoyable. I am not so wrapped up in analysing the product that everything is lost on me and this thread falls under the criteria of meeting those targets I have set myself.

I relentlessly cheer John Cena, Randy Orton and Triple H and hate The Miz and Sheamus. The Miz and Sheamus are not the people that I will consistently tune into see. No! It is quite the opposite actually. I love watching the WWE to see Triple H and John Cena. I have faith in the WWE to notice when someone needs to change alignment and I will stand by that view. Sly is correct, a lot of people will suggest a change of alignment as a get out clause for someone who is struggling. Perhaps it is because their current alignment is not working but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a new one will either.

Smarks are the end of the wrestling industry, I honestly believe that. If you just watch the product and for the 2 hours that you watch Raw on Monday, try not to be such a relentless smark. Cheer for the faces and resent the heels. I promise you that you will be reminded of a time that was a lot more innocent and you will have a better time of things.

 

[Remix]

No, it's very true. Faces draw, not heels. It's why ALL of the biggest draws in wrestling history have been good guys.

Not going to deny that Sly. In fact I acknowledged it. But I wasn't talking about the biggest face/draw of the era. I was talking about a big heel and Kofi Kingstone. The heel makes the crowd care more about Kofi. Sure they'll be tuning in to see Kofi win, but that is partially due to the heel making them care about him.

The notion that a heel draws is a myth.

It DOES take two to tango though Sly. Andre vs Hogan II being the most watched Pro wrestling match wasn't soley due to Hogan, otherwise all of his matches would have been watched by that many people.

Look up the definition of the word and you'll have your answer.

Sly, Was Hulk Hogan less entertaining in the nWo? You have said he's the best pro wrestler ever. Did he stop being such when he was a heel? Did he start (as you so unelequently put it) sucking after he joined the outsiders?

 

[raidenfighter]

Do me a favor, Slyfox, and realize that the definition of a word (the informal definition, no less) has nothing to do with what it has come to mean inside of the WWE. Stop leaning on that crutch in your arguments, it doesn't support your case.

I would argue against you, point by point, and tell you why you're actually just wrong, on a whole host of levels, but there's no need to. Everyone has opinions, and most aren't shared. I will say this though: do you think the WWE dislikes people tuning in to watch the heels? Clearly, at least some members of the IWC do tune in to watch heels, so (and I'm working inside of your argument here) they do draw at least a little right? Even if it's just a drop in the bucket? Do you think Vince McMahon would prefer those people fuck off? Honest question.

Funny, I've been reading this forum for a couple of years now, and have never been tempted to post before. I guess Mr. Big Shot Forum Warrior making blanket statements and fallacious arguments finally bothered me a bit.