Week 7: General Disarray -versus- fromthesouth

[Mr. TM]

Ultimate Warrior vs Randy Savage: Who would make the WWE Hall of Fame first?

fromthesouth is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[FromTheSouth]

I choose Savage and invite GD to make the opening post.

 

[gd]

Before we start this debate, I want to make a few statements that I'm sure FTS will agree with.

1. The biggest criteria for getting into the WWE HOF is to be on good terms with the WWE, not neccesarily being the best or most popular wrestler.

2. Both the Warrior and Savage have had problems with the WWE and Vince, this debate is about whose problems will be solved first.

In my opinion, the Ultimate Warrior's problems are much easier to resolve than Savage's. The main problem between the WWE and Warrior was over the copyright of his name and some money issues. If the WWE is in the need of a big name to be inducted into the HOF, which they will be pretty soon, considering who got into the HOF this year, (Koko B. Ware) I'm sure the WWE would be willing to give Warrior a decent pay day in exchange for a HOF appearance.

Vince and Warrior may not have seen eye to eye all of the time, but they do have some things in common. They both think the same way, in terms of money and things, and they are both pretty right winged guys. I'm sure if they really wanted to work things out between them, it could be done quite easily.

On the other hand, Savage's problems are much worse. Whether it happened or not, Vince believes that Savage slept with his daughter, possilby when she was underage no less. The fact that Savage may have done something like that to his young daughter means more to Vince that a few bucks, which is all his feud with Warrior is really about.

Savage was one of the greatest and most important wrestlers of all time, but his problems with Vince are just too much for him to get into the HOF anytime soon, if even at all. I reckon the best chance he has is if Vince dies within the next few years.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I don't agree with your points. First of all, they narrow the debate to backstage issues. Secondly, both of these guys would have to be at the top of their class, meaning they can't go in when there's another big name, and more importantly, they get the longest speech.

On your second point, there is more to it than solving your problems with Vince.

Even if Warrior brought Vince roses and ****es every day, there is still the matter of letting Warrior speak in front of people. The man has been known to go off of the deep end.



Furthermore, using your logic, if it's all about money, then look at the Macho Madness DVD. That is a venture where both McMahon and Savage get paid. They already work together, showing that there is mending in the relationship. It may not be perfect, but it makes more financial sense to put Savage out front, as he is the bigger star. Warrior will get in, but not before Savage, and with Warrior public comments, I would imagine that Vince would need assurances that he won't say "Queering don't make the world work" in front of a live audience.

Stephanie McMahon has been run through by enough of the locker room now for Vince to have softened on that view. She is married, she denies it, and that should be enough for Vince.

Finally, Vince hasn't escaped the steroids scandals yet. Warrior's very public admissions of use, and rationalizations of his use, make him more controversial. I know Vince loves press, but he has always hated the steroid press, and Warrior would bring more of that upon him.

 

[gd]

I don't agree with your points. First of all, they narrow the debate to backstage issues.

I don't follow you.

Secondly, both of these guys would have to be at the top of their class, meaning they can't go in when there's another big name, and more importantly, they get the longest speech

Never said they wouldn't.

On your second point, there is more to it than solving your problems with Vince.

Not really, both of these guys are obviously accomplished and popular enough to get into the HOF, just a matter of who solves their problems with the WWE (Vince) first.

Even if Warrior brought Vince roses and ****es every day, there is still the matter of letting Warrior speak in front of people. The man has been known to go off of the deep end.

I'm sure Warrior wouldn't say such crazy things if he was being inducted to the HOF. Those speeches are generally fluffly as a pillow factory.

Furthermore, using your logic, if it's all about money, then look at the Macho Madness DVD. That is a venture where both McMahon and Savage get paid. They already work together, showing that there is mending in the relationship. It may not be perfect, but it makes more financial sense to put Savage out front, as he is the bigger star. Warrior will get in, but not before Savage, and with Warrior public comments, I would imagine that Vince would need assurances that he won't say "Queering don't make the world work" in front of a live audience.

Warrior had a DVD too, you know. The WWE has made so many DVDs, which account for a lot of their revenue, that they have been struggling on finding wrestlers/topics to do them one. Vince went with the Savage DVD because their were really no other options. This doesn't show that their relationship is mended though, if it was, Savage would've been in the HOF long ago.

Stephanie McMahon has been run through by enough of the locker room now for Vince to have softened on that view. She is married, she denies it, and that should be enough for Vince.

Obviously, it isn't. The fact that Savage has been blackballed for so long shows that he really does care about this issue a whhole lot.

Finally, Vince hasn't escaped the steroids scandals yet. Warrior's very public admissions of use, and rationalizations of his use, make him more controversial. I know Vince loves press, but he has always hated the steroid press, and Warrior would bring more of that upon him.

Just because Warrior used roids, it doesn't mean that he won't get in the HOF. Hogan was one of the biggest roid users in wrestling, and he was still welcome by the WWE, until he went nuts and started acting like an asshole, of course.

Like I said, Vince will be able to get past his problems with Warrior and will probably induct him into the HOF shortly. I'm sure WWE has a pretty good speech writer that will make everything seem just rosy.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I don't follow you.

It's about more than who Vince likes more.

Never said they wouldn't.

I don't think Vince trusts Warrior to stay on topic.

Not really, both of these guys are obviously accomplished and popular enough to get into the HOF, just a matter of who solves their problems with the WWE (Vince) first.

You're wrong here. You failed to understand the steroids argument from the last go round, so I'll try again. Since Chris Benoit died and murdered, the steroids issue is closer to the surface. Both men may have used Steroids, but Warrior is the poster child for steroid abuse. Putting Savage in is a bit safer of a choice at this point.

I'm sure Warrior wouldn't say such crazy things if he was being inducted to the HOF. Those speeches are generally fluffly as a pillow factory.

How are you sure? The man is fucking crazy. If Vince trusted him to not talk about the dangers of "queering", I think he would be in already.

Warrior had a DVD too, you know. The WWE has made so many DVDs, which account for a lot of their revenue, that they have been struggling on finding wrestlers/topics to do them one. Vince went with the Savage DVD because their were really no other options. This doesn't show that their relationship is mended though, if it was, Savage would've been in the HOF long ago.

No other options? Is there a Bret Hart DVD? He could do a Rock DVD, a Mick Foley DVD, a Ric Flair DVD, a Sting DVD, a Four Horsemen DVD, a ladder match DVD, a DVD on the Corporate ministry, a Kurt Angle DVD, there are so many DVD's he could do, easily. The fact that he did the Savage DVD means that that relationship is thawing.

Obviously, it isn't. The fact that Savage has been blackballed for so long shows that he really does care about this issue a whhole lot.

There is so much more to it.

Just because Warrior used roids, it doesn't mean that he won't get in the HOF. Hogan was one of the biggest roid users in wrestling, and he was still welcome by the WWE, until he went nuts and started acting like an asshole, of course.

1. Hogan isn't the poster boy for roid abuse.
2. Hogan doesn't go on TV talking about using roids.
3. Hogan was in the HoF before Chris Benoit went batshit crazy.
4. Hogan is a national icon, who is remembered for far more than roids.

Like I said, Vince will be able to get past his problems with Warrior and will probably induct him into the HOF shortly. I'm sure WWE has a pretty good speech writer that will make everything seem just rosy.

So, you're saying that if Warrior is given a script, he will stick to it? Did it ever sound like he was sticking to the script in his WWF days? Does it sound like he sticks to the script at his speaking engagements? On TV? Of course not. But, you expect him to stay on script when he's given a venue to speak on that will get international TV coverage? That's ridiculous.


The Macho Man is a WWE icon, and at some point, Vince has to soften and let him in to the Hall. Warrior, on the other hand, is crazy as a loon, can't be trusted, and gives the WWE bad steroid press upon his admittance. Vince can't be sure he won't launch into a homophobic, xenophobic, racist rant.

 

[gd]

It's about more than who Vince likes more.

Pretty much what I said.

I don't think Vince trusts Warrior to stay on topic.

I'm sure Warrior will stay on topic if he is threatened will losing his payday.

You're wrong here. You failed to understand the steroids argument from the last go round, so I'll try again. Since Chris Benoit died and murdered, the steroids issue is closer to the surface. Both men may have used Steroids, but Warrior is the poster child for steroid abuse. Putting Savage in is a bit safer of a choice at this point.

Most non smark fans don't know who used steroids and when they used them or any of that stuff. The WWE would be able to put Warrior over as a great guy, regardless of his history.

How are you sure? The man is fucking crazy. If Vince trusted him to not talk about the dangers of "queering", I think he would be in already.

Everyone has a price, Warrior would shut his mouth for enough green.

No other options?

Yep, that's what I read on the internetz.

Is there a Bret Hart DVD?

Yes

He could do a Rock DVD,

Already is one.

a Mick Foley DVD,

He's in the rival company.

a Ric Flair DVD,

The man retired recently.

a Sting DVD,

Rival company.

a Four Horsemen DVD,

Who cares about stables?

a ladder match DVD,

Already is one.

a DVD on the Corporate ministry,

You're really pulling at straws now.

a Kurt Angle DVD,

TNA World Champion.

there are so many DVD's he could do, easily.

No, there aren't.

The fact that he did the Savage DVD means that that relationship is thawing.

It shows that Vince was desparate for money.

There is so much more to it.



1. Hogan isn't the poster boy for roid abuse.
2. Hogan doesn't go on TV talking about using roids.
3. Hogan was in the HoF before Chris Benoit went batshit crazy.
4. Hogan is a national icon, who is remembered for far more than roids.

Still took steroids.

So, you're saying that if Warrior is given a script, he will stick to it? Did it ever sound like he was sticking to the script in his WWF days? Does it sound like he sticks to the script at his speaking engagements? On TV? Of course not. But, you expect him to stay on script when he's given a venue to speak on that will get international TV coverage? That's ridiculous.

He will if he is getting paid a ton of money.

The Macho Man is a WWE icon, and at some point, Vince has to soften and let him in to the Hall. Warrior, on the other hand, is crazy as a loon, can't be trusted, and gives the WWE bad steroid press upon his admittance. Vince can't be sure he won't launch into a homophobic, xenophobic, racist rant.

Vince would much rather trust Warrior, despite some of the things he's done in the past, then give the man who he thinks deflowered his underage daugther the gratification of getting into the HOF.

The fact is, Vince holds grudges, and since he has held this grudge against Macho Man for such a long time, it's very unlikely he's going to break now.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Pretty much what I said.

No, you said it was about who Vince likes more. I said there is more to it.

I'm sure Warrior will stay on topic if he is threatened will losing his payday.

I'm not so sure.

Most non smark fans don't know who used steroids and when they used them or any of that stuff. The WWE would be able to put Warrior over as a great guy, regardless of his history.

How could you not know that he used steroids? The guys looks like steroids.

Everyone has a price, Warrior would shut his mouth for enough green.

You seem so sure of this. I show video evidence to the contrary. Non Fox News contributors (i.e. people who they bring on that don't get a Fox paycheck) get an appearance fee. Look at how off the topic he gets.

Yep, that's what I read on the internetz.

Then it must be true.

Yes

Awesome

Already is one.

Awesome

He's in the rival company.

For, like a week, and as a shell of his former self. Vince has all the WCW footage.

The man retired recently.

There is an HBK and a DX DVD. Last I checked.....

Rival company.

But Vince owns all the good footage.

Who cares about stables?

DX DVD.

Already is one.

Awesome.

You're really pulling at straws now.

Still, plenty of footage on one of the best angles ever.

TNA World Champion.

Yeah, that was grasping at straws.

No, there aren't.

Yeah, there are.

It shows that Vince was desparate for money.

Vince has more money than God. He isn't desperate for anything. Your idea that the McMahon needs money is ludicrous. They own 2/3 of the stock of a company valued near a billion dollars, and his wife draws the top salary besides talent in the whole company. Shane and Stephanie draw huge salaries too. That family is doing fine.

Still took steroids.

That's funny. At the top of this post Warrior's steroid history wasn't an issue, and now Savage's is? A little double standard....

Which is it? You pick one and I win either way. If it matters, then Savage's discretion makes him a better candidate. If it doesn't, then Vince has to worry about Warrior's speech. The hall of fame is pretty much every wrestler's last pay day, so if Warrior wants to be a douche, he can, and there is nothing Vince can do.

He will if he is getting paid a ton of money.

See above.

Vince would much rather trust Warrior, despite some of the things he's done in the past, then give the man who he thinks deflowered his underage daugther the gratification of getting into the HOF.

So, he'll give him a DVD and a payday for nothing, but not use him to pop ratings. Savage is a bigger draw than Warrior. If he'll give him a DVD, he'll put him the hall.

The fact is, Vince holds grudges, and since he has held this grudge against Macho Man for such a long time, it's very unlikely he's going to break now.

Vince forgets grudges when there is a chance to pop ratings.

 

[gd]

No, you said it was about who Vince likes more. I said there is more to it.

There obviously isn't more to it.

I'm not so sure.

I am sure though. However, it's speculation on both parts, so no point in arguing either way any more.

How could you not know that he used steroids? The guys looks like steroids.

9 year old kids don't know what steroids even are.

You seem so sure of this. I show video evidence to the contrary. Non Fox News contributors (i.e. people who they bring on that don't get a Fox paycheck) get an appearance fee. Look at how off the topic he gets.

Yes, and I'm sure he gets to keep that fee no matter what. However, Vince would offer him a bunch of money and threaten to take it all away if he doesn't stick to the script and drop a big lawsuit on him. I think that may keep him in a line a little better.

Also, here's a video where he talks sensibly, so I guess that proves he's not crazy.

[youtube]398V7smLbaQ[/youtube]​

Then it must be true.

Yep

Awesome

How is it awesome for you that I proved you wrong because you didn't bother doing any research?

Awesome

O, I get it, you must me awesome for me, since I was right.

For, like a week, and as a shell of his former self. Vince has all the WCW footage.

Why would he make a DVD of a guy that is working for the competitor right now? It doesn't make any sense.

There is an HBK and a DX DVD. Last I checked.....

Indeed, but it appears there is a Flair DVD already, I just didn't look hard enough the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/WWE-Ultimate-Ric-Flair-Collection/dp/B0000DIJOW

But Vince owns all the good footage.

Once again, he'd never make a DVD featuring a guy who works for a rival company, unless he is slandering them of course.

DX DVD.

DX are cool and hip, 4 Horseman are a bunch of old guys a lot of fans have never heard of.

Awesome.

Once again, quite awesome for me indeed. Starting to feel sorry for you actually.

Still, plenty of footage on one of the best angles ever.

One of the best angles ever? I wouldn't agree, and I don't think a lot of others would either.

Yeah, that was grasping at straws.

Who, me or you? Obviously not me, why would Vince make a DVD promoting the guy who is the face of TNA? That is just ludicrous.

Yeah, there are.

No, there aren't. Excluding all of the existing DVDs and the DVDs of guys who are in TNA, which Vince wouldn't ever make while they were still employed there, all you gave me were The Four Horsemen and The Corporate Ministry, DVDs that wouldn't see nearly as well as a Savage DVD. MAking the Savage DVD wasn't about mending the realtionship, it was all about necessity.

Vince has more money than God. He isn't desperate for anything. Your idea that the McMahon needs money is ludicrous. They own 2/3 of the stock of a company valued near a billion dollars, and his wife draws the top salary besides talent in the whole company. Shane and Stephanie draw huge salaries too. That family is doing fine.

Just so you know, WWE stock has been dropping over the last year or two. Financial guys are actually concerned with it. Here is Jim Cramer, who is a respected finiancial guy.

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/WWE_News_3/article_28677.shtml

You know what was produced shortly after this? Randy Savage DVD. Furthermore, Savage didn't even really participate in the DVD, it was just a compalation of his matches. If his relationship with Vince really was being mended, he would've been more involved with the DVD.

That's funny. At the top of this post Warrior's steroid history wasn't an issue, and now Savage's is? A little double standard....

Actually, that comment was about Hogan. It was also about how steroids aren't really an issue, unless Warrior comes out and says during his speech that he loves steroids, which he won't do.

Which is it? You pick one and I win either way. If it matters, then Savage's discretion makes him a better candidate. If it doesn't, then Vince has to worry about Warrior's speech. The hall of fame is pretty much every wrestler's last pay day, so if Warrior wants to be a douche, he can, and there is nothing Vince can do.

I'm saying that Vince would threaten to completely destroy Warrior's financial life if he misbehaved. That would keep him in line.

Vince forgets grudges when there is a chance to pop ratings.

Not when it's a big of a grudge that he's had with Savage and not when he can get similar ratings with Warrior.

In summation, I believe this debate comes down to whether Vince would rather have someone who has said a few somewhat crazy things in the past get into the HOF, or a guy that he obviously deeply despises get into the HOF.

It's obvious that Vince's relationship with Savage hasn't been mended at all, as proven above. Vince would much rather take a slight risk with the Warrior than give someone who he obviously doesn't care for the gratification of getting into the HOF.

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity of debate- 1 point
GD made some spelling errors, but had a good format. I'll give it to him.

Punctuality- 1 point
GD served a tour of duty in between the debate, so I hate having to take off points for him, but FTS stayed ashore, working the factories.

Informative- 1 point
i was looking for certain points in this debate. You guys answered some of them, but FTS brought up strange information. DVD's about people that should be made.

Bret Hart DVD? He could do a Rock DVD, a Mick Foley DVD, a Ric Flair DVD, a Sting DVD, a Four Horsemen DVD, a ladder match DVD, a DVD on the Corporate ministry, a Kurt Angle DVD, there are so many DVD's he could do, easily. The fact that he did the Savage DVD means that that relationship is thawing.

There is two Rock DVDs, I think there is a Mick Foley one or two, There just was a Ric one, Sting has one in the works, There just was a four horsemen DVD, and a ladder match one, and Vince has a DVD that covers most of the Corporate matter, No Angle one that I know of.

Strange tactics. Surprised the comparison of the DVD was not brought up. Randy's was quite positive on him, Warriors was not. I'll give the point to GD here though.

Emotionality- 1 point
I think GD brought a little more emotion into the debate, FTS seemed defeated in his approach. I am not sure why.

Persuasion- 1 point
GD persuaded me from a point I was against. I thought with that DVD, it was going the other way. But FTS did not get that big point. I recommend a watch of the DVD.

TM rates this 4 points GD to 1 points FTS.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: GD had a good opening argument, and FTS just went into his rebuttal.

Point: General Disarray

Punctuality: FTS was here when called upon.

Point: fromthesouth

Information: The information was good, I think FTS' videos were more to how Warrior is outside of wrestling, whereas GD's was when he was supposed to be in character.

Point: fromthesouth

Emotionality: GD had his usual cocky attitude. FTS appeared pretty calm from my view.

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: This is a hard decision. This could have gone either way, but I think the biggest thing is can Warrior keep his mouth shut. After those videos, where he isn't "in character", I'm not so sure even a big payday can keep his trap shut.

Point: fromthesouth

CH David scores this fromthesouth 3, General Disarray 2.

 

[Miko]

A debate about Warrior and Savage, I'll judge this when I finish *********ing. . .

. . . Right then.

Clarity: GD, like most the other judges I am a sucker for opening posts

Point: General Disarray

Punctuality: fromthesouth

Point: fromthesouth

Information: fromthesouth used alot more relevant information

Point: fromthesouth

Emotionality: For once this point doesnt go to fromthesouth, GD had the right attitude

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: A real hard choice, but after reading this I think that should either of them ever make it in to the HOF Savage is likely to be first.

Point: fromthesouth

I score this bad boy

General Disarray - 2
fromthesouth - 3

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - Read what CH David wrote.

Point: GD

Punctuality - Read what TM wrote.

Point: fromthesouth

Informative - fromthesouth attacked The Ultimate Warrior out of character. If this was relevant, he would win this point. But, the information did nothing to dissuade me from GD's side.

Point: GD

Emotionality - I'm going to split the point here.

Point: Split

Persuasion - I will split the point here as well.

Point: Split

tdigle's Score

fromthesouth - 2
GD - 3