Week 4: Lee -versus- General Disarray

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
"In Canada, it's a Tradition... in Mexico, it's a Religion.... in Japan, it's a Sport... in America.... It's a Joke." Is Wrestling really a joke in America?

General Disarray is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends +2 hours after Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
Wahey lets give the none American the debate on opinions in America, Fucking awesome.

So let us begin, I shall be taking the side that wrestling is in fact a joke in the USA. So shall we have a gander?

Talking about it

Lets start with talking about a thing that will happen to a lot of people this Monday when they go to work

Average guy1; Sup bish, you do much at the weekend?
Wrestling Fan; Nothing much, I watched the Summerfest last night
Average guy1; Summerfest WTF dawg?!
WF: It's SummerSlam
AG1: Oh Summer Slam, like WWF? You Still watch wrestling? HAHAHAHA What a joke :lmao:

So most of us will keep quiet that we're in our 20s and still watch WWE, there may be a few people who will remember when they watched WWF with Austin/Rock/Hogan but the vast majority will think you're a loser.

2) The Media portrayal


Lets ignore the steroid scandal, lets ignore the Benoit incident, the deaths of many young competitors what you got?

So what do you have?

It's a sport that is fake, trying to persuade people it's real. Once the real factor of wrestling has gone, the mythos, what is it? It's a joke.

3 The stereotypes


Wrestling_Fans.jpg


Its-Still-Real-to-Me-Dammit.jpg


Need I go in depth about the sterotypical wrestling fan....they're kids, they're grannies, they're fucking losers. Society holds that a wrestling fan is a loser and thus a joke!
 
Wrestling in America is far from a joke, unless you consider a multi-billion dollar industry that is featured on prime time television a joke. Sure pro wrestling may not be the coolest thing in America, but it is far from a joke.

Money, Money, yeah, yeah- Despite the fact that pro wrestling is fake and stupid, it makes a ton of money each year and the WWE is trading on the stock market. I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't consider the stock market a joke at all.

Celebs- This has been going on for years, famous people have been appearing at wrestling events to have fun/gain exposure. Just look at Raw for the past few months. We constantly see celebrities in the stands as well, just look at Summerslam. If celebrities, who we idolize, are willing to get involve with wrestling and admit their fandom, why should it be a joke if others do?

The Past- Just look at the history of wrestling, guys like Hogan and Flair are some of the most famous on the planet. Hulk has had several reality shows dedicated to him, and they have been popular. Ric Flair's signature WOOOOOOOOO is played at New Orleans Hornets games. There are many references to wrestlings glorious past in pop culture today.

The Present- Some of wrestlings biggest stars are popular in the outside world today. John Cena is a movie star that has been featured on numerous TV shows and adds. Triple H has been on the tonight show. Someone like The Miz, a reality TV star, chose pro wrestling as his career, when he could'v made money a million other ways based on his popularity. Wrestling in America is extremely significant and popular today.

It's Entertainment- Just because wrestling in America isn't like wrestling in other countries, that doesn't make it a joke. In the end, it's a male soap opera with a huge viewing audience. Millions upon millions watch this "joke" every week and enjoy it. I think that wrestling is just as much legitimate and respectable as any other source of entertainment out there.
 
Money, Money, yeah, yeah- Despite the fact that pro wrestling is fake and stupid, it makes a ton of money each year and the WWE is trading on the stock market. I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't consider the stock market a joke at all.

Ignoring the stock market thing, which incidentally is just WWE and not the rest of pro wrestling, does money wise come into it? I don't think it does, look at televangelists they make millions a year too, yet most of the world think they're a joke. Money makes no end to it.

Celebs- This has been going on for years, famous people have been appearing at wrestling events to have fun/gain exposure. Just look at Raw for the past few months. We constantly see celebrities in the stands as well, just look at Summerslam. If celebrities, who we idolize, are willing to get involve with wrestling and admit their fandom, why should it be a joke if others do?

Lets look at some of the big celebrities in WWE...how about the Rosie O Donald/Trump match? How about the one where the presidential candidates took the ring? Yeh I think you get the point.

The Past- Just look at the history of wrestling, guys like Hogan and Flair are some of the most famous on the planet. Hulk has had several reality shows dedicated to him, and they have been popular. Ric Flair's signature WOOOOOOOOO is played at New Orleans Hornets games. There are many references to wrestlings glorious past in pop culture today.

Yeh that may have been the case that he has had TV shows about him, but he is now seen as a joke. Here's a man in his mid 50s who just looks like a joke. He's as orange as the sun, and has a weird relationship with his daughter. The media like to mock Hogan.

The Present- Some of wrestlings biggest stars are popular in the outside world today. John Cena is a movie star that has been featured on numerous TV shows and adds. Triple H has been on the tonight show. Someone like The Miz, a reality TV star, chose pro wrestling as his career, when he could'v made money a million other ways based on his popularity. Wrestling in America is extremely significant and popular today.

OK take away Triple H who has been built up over a long time, and then Cena who only appears to kids you have the Miz. Do you realise how much reality stars are seen as a joke? To use the Miz as an example is pretty silly, and I think most Americans don't know who cena is...why else did twelve rounds flop?
It's Entertainment- Just because wrestling in America isn't like wrestling in other countries, that doesn't make it a joke. In the end, it's a male soap opera with a huge viewing audience. Millions upon millions watch this "joke" every week and enjoy it. I think that wrestling is just as much legitimate and respectable as any other source of entertainment out there.

See Big Brother.
 
Talking about it

Lets start with talking about a thing that will happen to a lot of people this Monday when they go to work

Average guy1; Sup bish, you do much at the weekend?
Wrestling Fan; Nothing much, I watched the Summerfest last night
Average guy1; Summerfest WTF dawg?!
WF: It's SummerSlam
AG1: Oh Summer Slam, like WWF? You Still watch wrestling? HAHAHAHA What a joke :lmao:

Cool Guy 1: Yo man, did you watch Summerslam yesterday?
Cool Guy 2: Ya man, did you see Jeff jump of that ladder. It was AWESOME!!!
CG1: I know, and the Undertaker! I'm so glad me and my buddies watched it.
CG2: Same here, that was a great night!

I can make up conversations, too.

So most of us will keep quiet that we're in our 20s and still watch WWE, there may be a few people who will remember when they watched WWF with Austin/Rock/Hogan but the vast majority will think you're a loser.




2) The Media portrayal


Lets ignore the steroid scandal, lets ignore the Benoit incident, the deaths of many young competitors what you got?

You could say the same things about steroids and deaths/injuries when talking about professional football, and it certainly isn't a joke.

So what do you have?

It's a sport that is fake, trying to persuade people it's real. Once the real factor of wrestling has gone, the mythos, what is it? It's a joke.

The majority of wrestling fans know it is fake and still watch the product. Of course wrestling isn't a real sport, it isn't trying to be. It is a form of entertainment different from any other.



3 The stereotypes


Wrestling_Fans.jpg


Its-Still-Real-to-Me-Dammit.jpg

Wow, you can post pictures of 2 wresting fans and determine the entire business is a joke? I don't think so.

Need I go in depth about the sterotypical wrestling fan....they're kids, they're grannies, they're fucking losers. Society holds that a wrestling fan is a loser and thus a joke!

Stereotypes aren't always true, I'd think you'd know that. Sure, a lot of wrestlings fans aren't exactly the cool kids, but that doesn't mean all of the are. Even if the majority of wrestling fans aren't that high on the social ladder, so what? How does that make pro wrestling a joke?

BTW, I don't think of grannies when I think of pro wrestling.

Ignoring the stock market thing, which incidentally is just WWE and not the rest of pro wrestling, does money wise come into it? I don't think it does, look at televangelists they make millions a year too, yet most of the world think they're a joke. Money makes no end to it.

Televangelists are just glorified beggars, they are nothing like the wrestling business. The WWE is a Fortune 500 company that people buy stocks in. Tell me how that's not a joke.

Lets look at some of the big celebrities in WWE...how about the Rosie O Donald/Trump match? How about the one where the presidential candidates took the ring? Yeh I think you get the point.

Of course there are stupid things done to make fun of celebrities once and awhile, but the point is that many high profile people have been involved with wrestling over the years.

Yeh that may have been the case that he has had TV shows about him, but he is now seen as a joke. Here's a man in his mid 50s who just looks like a joke. He's as orange as the sun, and has a weird relationship with his daughter. The media like to mock Hogan.

But he does get so much media attention, and why? Because he became a celebrity and sensation by being a pro wrestler. If pro wrestling was such a stupid joke, no one would even know who Hulk Hogan was.


OK take away Triple H who has been built up over a long time, and then Cena who only appears to kids you have the Miz. Do you realise how much reality stars are seen as a joke? To use the Miz as an example is pretty silly, and I think most Americans don't know who cena is...why else did twelve rounds flop?

The Miz could've done anything after being a reality star, who are pretty highly regarded in America, but he chose to pursue pro wrestling. Someone who could've done anything else to become famous decided to go the route of pro wrestling, that sends the message that pro wresting=fame and respect.


See Big Brother.

Umm, what? How is wrestling like Big Brother at all?
 
Clarity of Argument - Kind of a strange set up by the debaters here, but It was much easier to follow Lee's posts here.


Punctuality: Lee disappeared, GD gets the point.


Informative: There was a lot of information that was not brought up that should have been. I wished Lee had used more proofs here to help his argument. You get the points GD for backing up points better.


Emotionality: Maybe it was just the debate topic, but I think GD played heavily off of Lee's negativity here. I am still chuckling over some of his comments here, which really helped cut the points Lee brought up without information.


Persuasion: As a Canadian, this is an interesting set up for me. We are a nation that is heavily influenced by America, but we have usually held onto professional wrestling as something special. But in the new age, Wrestling has died in Canada, as it has in America, and it leads me to think that wrestling is a bit of a joke now, I know I have to fight for my right to be a fan. But GD brought up its points as being a successful product, though he stuck to the WWE. It was enough however.


TM rates this 4 points GD, 1 points Lee.
 
Clarity: As TM said, it was a weird setup, but I liked the way Lee started out, and it helped him get this point.

Point: Lee

Punctuality: Lee seemed to have bailed a bit.

Point: General Disarray

Informative: As there wasn't much of a debate here, which left much to be desired, I'm going to give the point to GD, as he was able to complete and back his arguments better.

Point: General Disarray

Emotionality: Lee was more negative on the subject, which is understandable as he doesn't come from America, but GD was more sarcastic with some of his rebuttal points, and laughter goes a longer way with me.

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: I have to go with Lee on this one. While the company is still very successful in the United States, and does have a whole bunch of fans, it is still a joke throughout the country. I can't even talk about it with any of my friends, as they will start to give me shit about it. It may be successful in the US, but that doesn't mean that more people don't laugh at it.

Point: Lee

CH David scores this General Disarray 3, Lee 2.
 
Clarity: Lee. He kept his posts short and sweet, and they were quite clever. Gets the point here.

Punctuality: GD, as stated above.

Informative: GD. There wasn't much useful information used. But any useful information that was used in the debate pretty much all came from GD.

Persuasion: I was really torn with this one. Lee's point were clever, yet obvious. GD had some really good counter-arguments. Buuuut... I think I have to go with Lee here. Mmmm, you can just smell the cynicism.

GD 3 Lee 2
 
Clarity: Going with Lee here, short and simple and raising some valid points

Point: Lee

Punctuality: Lee, where were ya? GD gets the point

Point: General Disarray

Informative: More information contained in GD's posts, at least more factual stuff anyway, I assume that means he gets the point

Point: General Disarray

Emotionality: Not much to be seen really, the General seemed more determined to make his point.

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: There just wasnt arguing with some of the things Lee said, fact is, whenever I've heard people talk about wrestling everyone else laughs at them. I am the only person I know that can get away with it, and frankly thats because I am awesome.

Point: Lee

I score this round:
Lee - 2
General Dissaray - 3
 
Clarity Of Debate: Lee gets the point here.

Point: Lee

Punctuality: Read what everyone else already said.

Point: GD

Informative: Lee brought in some good information, and some funny pictures as well. I like funny pictures, especially for a debate that requires a great sense of humor.

Point: Lee

Emotionality: Good job in your rebuttals, GD.

Point: GD

Persuasion: Lee's opening argument was absolutely hilarious. GD, as I already mentioned, you did a great job in your rebuttals. But, Lee brought the awesomeness and the funnies to this debate.

Point: Lee

tdigle's Score

Lee - 3
GD - 2
 

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