So you believe Hulk Hogan is "known" for his in ring ability ? You believe The Rock has flourished in Hollywood because of his in ring ability ? You think John Cena will be remembered for his great mat work ?
No, but they are all capable of very good and memorable matches. Without those, they would never have become superstars.
Above average equates to a C+ or B- on a grading scale. Someone who receives that grade can't be "known" for their wrestling ability.
They can be known for being above average in the ring and giving us a pleasant experience when watching their matches. Just because they aren't the best their ever was in the ring, it doesn't mean that their in ring work isn't still important.
I agree they were more than capable, but their mic work was flawless. More than capable < flawless = what they're known for !
First of all, their mic work wasn't "flawless", no one's is. It may be very good, but you can't say Hogan and Flair are flawless.
Secondly, I can use the same debate when talking about guys like Angle and Benoit. Their mic work is capable, but their in ring work is "flawless", so in ring work is more important. It's a never ending cycle, neither of us are going to win on this point.
Seriously ?? Try using spell check...
Just one example from a previous post of yours...
At least people will know what I'm saying and not be tricked into thinking that CM Punk spontaniously combusted.
CM Puck became the champ, then the very next week on Smackdown he was talking on the mic at length to convince people he didn't want to upset Jeff - it was all about an opportunity. Ever since, the guy has recieved more mic time each and every week. He's even cutting lengthy promos on PPV's.
So? Where are you going with this? This has nothing to do with why he got over and won the title, that was mostly due to his in ring work. The mic time that followed was just the icing on the cake.
After looking at your next response, you are thinking of the wrong tilte win. So...
As for Kofi "Jumping Bean" Kingston... he hasn't held the IC title since August of '08 when Santino Marella beat him.
I think you mean the US Title - WATCH THE FACTS YOU TRY TO USE !
Nope, I'm am talking about last year when Kofi won the IC Title at NOC and Punk won the World Title on Raw the next day. You are the one that's mistaken, my friend.
And then we'll look at MVP's opponent the past two weeks, Chris Jericho. As I stated before, in ring ability is great and for a wrestling purist, it's fantastic. But Jericho was a straight midcard talent in WCW. Once he came to the WWE and started cutting promos on people like Stephanie McMahon, he started winning major titles. You helped prove my point by mentioning one of the best mic workers in the business right now - thanks
Mic work is what makes or breaks a WWE career righ now thanks to Vince's model of how his business should operate. It doesn't mean it's right, but it's what the boss wants and if the boss isn't happy, you're either unemployed or headlining Superstars on WGN.
If mic work makes or breaks it, then why is MVP, who is great on the mic, just as good as Jericho even, still floundering in the mid card? It's because he doesn't have the same in ring skill as Chris Jericho, who is an upper midcarder.
Furthermore, you are being far to single minded with this debate. Just because Vince thinks highly of mic work, it doesn't mean he doesn't value in ring work. Even more, who the hell cares what Vince thinks? Sure, he may be the leader of the WWE, but that doesn't mean that one mans thought determines whether mic work or ring work is more important.
If the best example you can conjure is a female wrestler on TNA, this conversation is over.
Why, because "tnaz is teh suxz and girlz suxz at wrassling"? There is no reason why this isn't a relevant argument.
The TNA fans chant for everything and everyone. t's akin to ECW in a bingo hall - small environment, small company, small studio. That's part of what makes TNA special right now in the wrestling competition world.
No, they don't chant for shit in the ring like recent newcomers Jethro Holliday, Deaner, or Sojo Bolt. In fact, I that is the first time in quite awhile I heard them chanting at all on an episode of Impact, and Hamada didn't say one word.
Also, you may want to use spell check. I think you meant "It's." Luckily, I was smart enough to figure it out.
I'm not trying to say that wrestling fans don't appreciate in ring work or don't recognize it when they see great in ring work, but an individual's ability to cut a great promo is what keeps them appearing on TV and in main events... or even in the midcard bouts.
No, there are plenty of midcarders who get hardly any mic time because their just isn't enough time on the show. The only thing that they can do to stay employed is demonstarte their in ring ability. (See, Evan Bourne.)
Do you consider the upper midcard a success ?
Yes, considering that will put you among to top ten wrestlers in the WWE, I'd say that is successful.
I'm sure there are several guys who do - guys who resign themselves to earn a paycheck and make a decent living.
You wish you could have their job.
But then there are guys who have a true passion and desire to be great in the industry. Guys like HHH, Cena, Austin, Hogan, Flair, Edge and Orton. These guys are superstars or legends because the went above and beyond what a midcard wrestler does - they honed their craft and perfected it with in ring work and MIC WORK.
I do agree that mic work is very important to becoming a main eventer, but so is in ring work. Unless you are very good at both, you probably aren't going to be a main eventer. However, if you great in the ring with less that average mic work, you can still be an upper midcarder. However, if you flip it around, great mic work and bad in ring skill, you end up like the Miz.
Of course, there are some exceptions for main eventer who aren't great on the mic and in the ring. Guys like Jeff Hardy, Batista (one of the worst promo cutters in wrestling today), and AJ Styles. If you'll notice all of these guys have one thing in common, their in ring ability is greater than their mic work.
In 14 years with the WWF / WWE, Kane has been the heavyweight champ twice - and one of those reigns was for one day !! Hardly demonstrates a success IMO when it comes to being legendary.
I never said he was legendary, but he has been around for a long time in the WWE and won many titles and had many high profile feuds, none of them because of his mic work.
If Kane was outstanding on the mic, I believe he would have been elevated several times over based on his gimmick and potential title feuds.
Probably, but I could say the same thing about a guy like Jake Roberts. If he was outstanding in the ring, he'd be elevated into a legendary main eventer.
Once agian, we're back to that vicious cycle, no one's going to win on this point.
The age old debate about The Big Show being under-utilized as a wrestler. A man that big and that talented in the ring (for his size) should have held the heavyweight strap for a lengthy amount of time and on multiple occasions.
Honestly, Big Show isn't that great in the ring, but he isn't very good on the mic either. Not sure where to categorize him.
You say he was in the main event at WM 25, but he was only there to job to Cena and Edge. He has also been featured in a sumo match against Akibono at Mania and a really pathetic boxing match against Floyd Mayweather at Mania.
So you're saying he sucks in the ring? Why should I bother arguing for him then?
As for his tag team title reign right now, who's he teamed with ? One of the best mic workers in the business - hmmmm ??
So, his partner is good on the mic? What the hell does that prove?
You're right - different debate, different thread. But Benjamin is a much better ring worker than Jeff Hardy IMO, but he really does make me cringe when he's handed a mic.
No, Jeff Hardy is much better and more exciting in the ring than Shelton, no question. I can't believe you'd even argue that. You can't compare Hardy and Benjamin in any way, shape, or for.
BTW, fun fact. Shelton Benjamin would be a 15 time world champion by now, but Vince hates black people.
I could always come up with ficticious facts like Funaki held the IC title around the same time as Punk winning the heavyweight title without ever talking ever.
Once again, I showed that you were wrong. You were thinking of 2009. I went back in the time capsule to 2008, when the silent Kofi Kingston and Punk were champs at the same time.
It was not Jeff's in ring work, it was his spot mokey in ring work which endeared him to the fans. That's wrestling 101 that any semi knowledgeable wrestling fan would acknowledge.
Umm, isn't being a spot monkey still in ring work? It sure isn't mic work, that's for sure. There are many different types of in ring workers, all of them are important and relevant. It just depends on the wrestler.
BTW, Jeff was becoming a more complete wrestler, that's why he got lifted to main event status with piss poor mic work.
Wow -that may be the most absurd comment I've seen on these forums in quite some time. Jeff's in ring was "so good" that he had to give him the title ? I'll agree with "entertaining", but "so good" ?
However you want to word it, because of what Jeff Hardy did during wrestling matches, however you want to describe it, he became World Champion. Not because of his mic work.
He gave him the title much like Mysterio was given the title a few years back - great storyline that Vince used to capitalize on merchandise sales and kids becoming fans. Brilliant really.
This has nothing to do with mic work at all then. Both Mysterio and Hardy are great in the ring and not so much on the mic. Yet, still world champions. Even if it was partly for the kids and the Mexicans.
No, it was because he was willing to jump off a 40-foot ladder and risk death. Mick Foley ring a bell ? But I bet you say Foley was / is a great wrestler too.
Foley is very good in the ring, but for different reasons than guys like Hart, Benoit, or Angle. He knows how to tell a story in the ring and give the fans something entertaining to watch, even if it is mostly Foley talking punishment, he does is so well that it makes him a very good in ring worker. Like I said before, there are many different ways to be great in the ring, but it doesn't change to fact that you're great.
Also, that had nothing at all to do with mic work. Not sure what you were trying to prove.
Because a great gimmick is also a way to elevate yourself without being superb in the ring or on the mic. But very few gimmicks stick around longer than a year or two. Undertaker's gimmick had staying power.
I get it, but it's not really relevant to the debate. It's a category all it's own, pertaining to neither in ring work or mic work. So, I'll just throw that out.
Give the man some time. Morrison is great in the ring and he's still stuck in the midcard.
Morrison and Miz's current singles runs started at the exact same time. Morrison is the IC Champ. He won it from Rey Mysterio is what all the people are talking about as one of the best matches of the year. The Miz ain't doing shit right now.
It takes a few years to reach main event status and actually stay there. Orton, Lashley and Lesnar grabbed the golden prize early on, but two of them left before we could see what happened and the other didn't hold the strap for several more years.
Who cares about those guys?
And of the three you mentioned, only one was in the main event - Hardy.
Yep, but who was in the main event that sucked in the ring? That's right, no one.
I'm not trying to make the argument that ring work isn't important - I'm making the argument that mic work is more important.
But your argument is failing.
Stay on topic and pick your arguments and counterpoints carefully.
Umm, what? What was wrong with that counter point aside from nothing?
Alternate Response: No, you.
Professional wrestling in Japan and Mexico isn't key anywhere except Japan and Mexico. The WWE is relevant around the world - that's the difference and the argument I'm making.
What about hardcore wrestling fans all over the world who love wreslting around the world? Some of them are even judging this debate. Just because you don't know anything about foreign wrestling that doesn't mean you can completely ignore it in this debate.
The question was, which is more valuable to being a pro wrestler, in ring work or mic work? In Japan and Mexico, where many of the worlds pro wrestlers are, the answer is no question ring work. You can't even debate that. I could have wrote one paragraph about that and I would've won. However, I'll still prove that ring work is more important in America for the sake of the debate.
But Jeff didn't win the srap until he started cutting promos on a regular basis.
Promos that sucked. Despite being awful on the mic, he was the #1 guy on Smackdown. There is nothing you can do to argue this. I suggest you stop before you fall more behind.
Styles is great in the ring - no question. But his promo from a few weeks back about walking away thrust him right back into the main event scene on TNA - hence mic work elevates a guy much faster than ring work.
Styles has been in the main event scene for years. The promo itself wasn't actually that great, it was the storyline that put him back in the main event scene. He was going to be in the upcoming title match regardless of the quality of his promo, that was already planned out.
It's because of his outstanding in ring work that Styles is the face of TNA, not his mediocre mic work.
The 3rd largest wrestling company in the US should tell you all you need to know. That 3rd place ranking is 150 games back of the WWE in the standings. Again, time will tell so it's tough to include Danielson in this argument, but since you brought him up, I had to counter.
Are you going to call me an ROHbot now? Your single mindedness is incredible.
But there is my friend... lots of doubt, which is why this debate was a good one to have.
Not on my side. But I agree, great debate and such.
