Week 5: Little Jerry Lawler -versus- ztwhite

[Mr. TM]

Has Kenta Kobashi's legacy surpassed Misawa's?

ztwhite is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[ztwhite]

Yo L-Double-J... I've been in an important work meeting all morning and probably won't be out until late this evening, but I will post my opening statement tonight before Raw starts.

Just giving a heads up so I don't violate the 24 hour rule.

Peace my man.

 

[ztwhite]

Simply put - no... and it never will.

Mitsuharu Misawa's death was the most significant in-ring wrestling related death in history. I don’t count Owen Hart's death, because it really wasn’t caused by any wrestling related injury, but rather a freak accident during his ring entrance.

Although many American wrestling fans may never have heard of Misawa – or maybe only come upon the name in the occasional Pro Wrestling Illustrated story – there's no disputing that Misawa was one of... if not thee biggest name to come out of Japan in the last 20 years. He was also one of the very best workers, in Japan or anywhere.

Over the years, I've sought out some of his matches on DVD and on Youtube, just so I could see for myself what all the hype was about. The passion, intensity and excitement that I witnessed in his matches – especially his classic series against Kobashi – was almost unparalleled.

I was struck by how much the fans absolutely revered Misawa, despite not having anything close to a flashy look. He wore pretty bland green and white trunks and had an unremarkable physique. But, trust me, there was nothing lacking in the excitement department. American promoters could learn something from that.

I've never claimed to be a "puroresu" aficionado, but Misawa's death immediately resonated with me when I read the news, and it should have with any fan of pro wrestling. This was a tragedy that transcended cultural boundaries, and it highlighted the very real dangers of our so-called fake sport. It wasn't a high-risk move, steel chair shot, or crazy stunt bump - it was a basic back suplex. And when you think about it, it's pretty amazing this sort of thing doesn't happen a lot more often.

Many wrestling fans and wrestling know-it-alls will say that championship reigns are based on reputation. Whether it's with a promoter, your peers behind the curtain or with the fans. Misawa had all three of these reputations and he earned every one of them the hard way - with his work inside the ropes.

I would imagine Little Jerry Lawler will say that I'm using Misawa's death to glorify his life, and in some ways, he may be right. But usually I'm not the type of wrestling fan who takes too much stock in a guy holding a strap or winning "fill in the blank" award. Then I looked at the career title reigns and awards for Misawa.

Thanks to Wikipedia

All Japan Pro Wrestling

AJPW All Asia Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Kenta Kobashi (1) and Yoshinari Ogawa (1)
AJPW Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship (5 times)
AJPW Unified World Tag Team Championship (6 times) – with Toshiaki Kawada (2), Kenta Kobashi (2), Jun Akiyama (1) and Yoshinari Ogawa (1)
NWA International Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
PWF World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Jumbo Tsuruta
Champion's Carnival (1995, 1998)
World's Strongest Tag Team League (1992) – with Toshiaki Kawada
World's Strongest Tag Team League (1993, 1994, 1995) – with Kenta Kobashi

Pro Wrestling Noah

GHC Heavyweight Championship (3 times)
GHC Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Yoshinari Ogawa
Global Tag League (2009) – with Go Shiozaki

Pro Wrestling Illustrated

PWI ranked him #2 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the PWI 500 in 1997

Wrestling Observer Newsletter Awards

5 Star Match (1985) vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi on March 9
5 Star Match (1990) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta on June 8
5 Star Match (1990) with Toshiaki Kawada and Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue and Masanobu Fuchi on October 19
5 Star Match (1991) with Toshiaki Kawada and Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue and Masanobu Fuchi on April 20
5 Star Match (1992) with Kenta Kobashi and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue and Masanobu Fuchi on May 22
5 Star Match (1993) with Kenta Kobashi and Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue and Yoshinari Ogawa on July 2
5 Star Match (1993) with Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada on December 3
5 Star Match (1994) with Kenta Kobashi and Giant Baba vs. Masanobu Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue on February 13
5 Star Match (1994) with Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada on May 21
5 Star Match (1994) vs. Toshiaki Kawada on June 3
5 Star Match (1995) with Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada on January 21
5 Star Match (1995) with Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on March 4
5 Star Match (1995) vs. Akira Taue on April 15
5 Star Match (1995) with Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada on June 9
5 Star Match (1995) with Kenta Kobashi and Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue and Tamon Honda on June 30
5 Star Match (1996) with Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue on May 23
5 Star Match (1996) with Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on June 7
5 Star Match (1996) with Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue on December 6
5 Star Match (1997) vs. Toshiaki Kawada on June 6
5 Star Match (1997) with Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue on December 5
5 Star Match (1998) vs. Kenta Kobashi on October 31
5 Star Match (1999) vs. Kenta Kobashi on June 11
5 Star Match (1999) with Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi and Jun Akiyama on October 23
5 Star Match (2003) vs. Kenta Kobashi on March 1
Best Flying Wrestler (1985, 1986)
Best Wrestling Maneuver (1985) Topé con Giro
Feud of the Year (1990, 1991) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta
Match of the Year (1985) vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi on June 12, Tokyo, Japan
Match of the Year (1996) with Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on June 7, Tokyo, Japan
Match of the Year (1998) vs. Kenta Kobashi on October 31, Tokyo, Japan
Match of the Year (1999) vs. Kenta Kobashi on June 11, Tokyo, Japan
Match of the Year (2003) vs. Kenta Kobashi on March 1, Tokyo, Japan
Most Outstanding Wrestler (1997, 1999)
Most Underrated Wrestler (1988)
Tag Team of the Year (1995) with Kenta Kobashi
Tag Team of the Year (1996, 1997) with Jun Akiyama
Wrestler of the Year (1995, 1997, 1999)
Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 1996)

Holy crap !!!!!!! Misawa won the Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship 5 times !!!!!!

Unfortunately for Misawa, his wrestling death may overshadow his wrestling life in the long run, but for a true fan of professional wrestling, his wrestling life is undoubtedly complete and he died doing what he did best... wrestling. His death in the ring simply solidifies his legacy as the greatest wrestler ever from Japan and one of the greatest wrestlers in the world.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Barely 20 years old, Kenta Kobashi was trained for greatness by legends such as Giant Baba and Dory Funk Jr. in the All Japan Pro Wrestling's dojo. Making his debut in February 1988 he was booked to lose his first 63 matches which was part of Baba's plan. Through all this, Kobashi was elected Rookie of the Year award from the Japanese press. With the help of the Road Warriors, Kobashi gained prominence by becoming a member of Misawa's faction and he would play dual roles as either the underdog or the big brother. Less than a year later he would win his first title which was the AJPW All Asia Tag Team Championship with Misawa. His 1992 match with Tsuyoshi Kikuchi against Dan Kroffat and Doug Furnas was voted Match of the Year by the Wrestling News Observer.

The good times would keep on rolling in 1993 when he became Misawa's main rival. His first singles victory was over a Triple Crown Champion in Terry Gordy and later that year won his first Real World Tag League and AJPW World Tag Team Championship. His matches with Stan Hansen, Misawa, and Kawada were highly regarded and his 60 minute time limit draw with Kawada was claimed to be the best 60 minute match ever. He captured his first Triple Crown in 1996 by defeating Akira Taue and in 1998 won his second Triple Crown by defeating Kawada. However, I believe one of his greatest victories was capturing his third Triple Crown in 2000 against none other than Vader. Japanese magazines began calling him the perfect wrestler because he was a great combination of agility and strength.

Kobashi was the first to establish Pro Wrestling Noah as a viable promotion by being given a marquee position in its first two shows. Though multiple knee surgeries slowed him down, he was still the best at what he did. He defeated Misawa for the GHC Heavyweight Championship in March 2003 and held the title for over two years. He holds the distinction of having the best three matches in Noah history against Misawa, Jun Akiyama, and Kensuke Sasaki. He made his first North American appearance in 2005 as part of Harley Race's World League Wrestling promotion by defeating Wild Wade Chism who was the WLW champion at that time. He made apperances in Ring of Honor against Samoa Joe in which their match in 2005 would win Match of the Year for 2005.

His accomplishments speak for themselves. 3 Triple Crown Heavyweight Championships, 23 five-star match awards, and 6 Match of the Year awards among others. He took what Misawa did for Japanese wrestling and surpassed it. Kobashi was picked as one of Pro Wrestling Noah's crown jewels and he did everything for them and more. He was a success in three different continues and he will leave with a bigger legacy than Mitsuharu Misawa.

 

[ztwhite]

Wrestling is comprised of a series of defining moments that have become ingrained in the very fabric of the sport. Like the assassination of President John F. Kennedy or Mark David Chapman gunning down John Lennon outside his New York apartment, wrestling fans remember where they were and what they were doing when something big happened.

The tragic death of Owen Hart. Ric Flair's debut in the WWF. The first WrestleMania. We all have our own, personal moments.

In June of 2000, I heard that All Japan Pro Wrestling President, booker and top star Mitsuharu Misawa tendered his resignation with the company to start his own promotion.

At the time, I'm sure that the majority of North American fans had no clue who Misawa is or what he meant to wrestling in Japan.

And that was a pity, because since 1990, Mitsuharu Misawa was the best wrestler on the planet before his death.

Such a bold proclamation will no doubt infuriate North American fans weened on each McMahon family run RAW or Smackdown and those who think the sun sets and rises over HHH's head.

But the simple fact of the matter is Misawa was the best wrestler on the planet for the past 19 years - bar none.

Since 1990, nobody, (repeat NOBODY), had more five-star matches, had been a better in-ring performer and had achieved a consistent, higher match quality standard than Misawa.

Misawa was not a performer. He was not a sports entertainer. He was not an action adventure series hero.

He was a wrestler.

Not only that, he was a wrestler in the most physically demanding wrestling promotion on earth, competing before the most knowledgeable and critical wrestling fans in the world.

That last part will likely enrage a lot of you out there as well. It wasn't meant as an insult. It's just that Japanese fans have a reputation for being the most discerning fans anywhere. They follow the sport from all parts of the globe, have a greater knowledge of foreign wrestling cultures and styles and have a better understanding of how this business works. And they love their wrestling.

And with guys like Misawa, it wasn't or isn't hard to see why.

From his days as a mid-carder competing as Tiger Mask II to his ground-breaking feud with Jumbo Tsuruta in 1990, word of his brilliance spread to our shores where hardcore fans sought out tapes of his matches to see for themselves. Soon after, he won the hearts of the readers of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. Five times, Observer readers named Misawa wrestler of the year and three times they voted one of his matches as match of the year. Dave Meltzer himself, considered the leading authority on pro wrestling, picked him as the wrestler of the '90s.

Not Bret Hart. Not Shawn Michaels. Not Ric Flair. Not Hulk Hogan.

Misawa's proficiency in the ring can not be understated. Neither can his influence.

If Jumbo Tsuruta can be credited with pioneering Japanese wrestling by introducing a more advanced and athletic style, then it can be said that Misawa took it to another level. He set a new standard for athletic excellence, pushing his body each night to the point of exhaustion. He used the rings of All Japan Pro Wrestling as his personal stage to put on one memorable performance after another against the best in wrestling: Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaka Kawada, Jun Akiyama, Stan Hansen, Akira Taue and Jumbo Tsuruta.

He was a master storyteller in the squared circle. His ring psychology was the best, (repeat BEST) in the world. There were no wasted movements or meaningless moments in a Misawa match.

None.

Each one of his matches was different, unique from the previous one. Each move, each glance and each gesture in a Mitsuharu Misawa match meant something.

His departure changed the entire face of wrestling in Japan. A third major group in Japan, featuring the best heavyweight wrestlers in the world, took business away from both All Japan and New Japan Pro Wrestling. Because Misawa had expressed interest in working an inter-promotional program in the past, a dream feud with New Japan's top wrestlers was now within the realm of possibilities. We saw a possible take-off on the influential Choshu's Army vs All Japan feud that set the promotion on fire in the mid-'80s and was the inspiration that Eric Bischoff's NWO was modeled after. The possibilities were endless.

His leaving All Japan Pro Wrestling was the equivalent of Hulk Hogan signing with WCW in 1994; of Ric Flair going to the WWF in 1991; of Konnan leaving Mexico's EMLL office in 1992 with booker Antonio Pena to form AAA. That's how big this was. This was huge.

What Ric Flair meant to Jim Crockett Promotions, what Hulk Hogan meant to Vince McMahon and what Jerry Lawler meant to the city of Memphis, Mitsuharu Misawa meant to All Japan. No other wrestler in their tenure with a company had been more closely identified with his promotion than Misawa.

Mitsuharu Misawa WAS All Japan.

At least until Jine of 2000. He had been at odds with owner Motoko Baba. When her husband and All Japan founder Giant Baba died, Misawa, as booker, had wanted to take the promotion in a new direction. He wanted to change the face of the promotion and break with All Japan's isolationist policy and conservative booking philosophy. Mrs. Baba wouldn't let him.

So one of the most important poker games in wrestling began. Misawa, the backbone of the promotion, said either things would have to change or he would walk. Mrs. Baba called him on it. Turns out Misawa wasn't bluffing.

He walked out on the promotion that he helped build into the archetypal wrestling promotion, taking Kobashi, Akiyama and most of the roster with him to start his own promotion. One where he was able to do things his way, without the second guessing and interference of Mrs. Baba.

That's how much Mitsuharu Misawa meant. I doubt we could honestly say that about any other wrestler.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

By my recollection, Misawa has had 24 5-Star matches to Kobashi's 23. That's similar but I guess close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Kobashi lost his first 63 matches but still was awarded Rookie of the Year. You can't say that about any wrestler or any athlete to lose that much and still be considered one of the best.

He was a great singles and tag team competitor which not many have accomplished in Japan or America. All the 60-minute matches Flair wrestled and Kobashi's was nominated one of the best ever by the Wrestling News Observer. That is a huge achievement in my book and something Misawa cannot claim.

In Pro Wrestling Noah he won Wrestler of the Year twice in 2003 and 2004. He was arguably their top wrestler and he went to North America where he competed against Samoa Joe and Low Ki and was a success in Germany and was a huge draw.

Misawa may have been the founder of Noah but Kobashi took that company to new heights and without him, who knows how long Noah would have been around. Kobashi was the best for a near twenty-year period and is considered a legend in the Japan wrestling scene. His legacy has surpassed Misawa's and there is no doubt about it.

 

[ztwhite]

By my recollection, Misawa has had 24 5-Star matches to Kobashi's 23. That's similar but I guess close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Kobashi lost his first 63 matches but still was awarded Rookie of the Year. You can't say that about any wrestler or any athlete to lose that much and still be considered one of the best.

Sure you could - it's called a storyline. Every promotion, whether here or across the pond uses them.

Plus, no other promotion really has a "Rookie of the Year".

He was a great singles and tag team competitor which not many have accomplished in Japan or America. All the 60-minute matches Flair wrestled and Kobashi's was nominated one of the best ever by the Wrestling News Observer. That is a huge achievement in my book and something Misawa cannot claim.

Because as I mentioned in an earlier post - wrestling in Japan is nothing like wrestling in America. It's believeable, it's unscripted often times, it's lengthy, it's fast paced at all times and it's high flying.

As much as Ric Flair is revered here in the states, he wouldn't even make a blip on a Japanese wrestling radar. Just not the right style.

In Pro Wrestling Noah he won Wrestler of the Year twice in 2003 and 2004. He was arguably their top wrestler and he went to North America where he competed against Samoa Joe and Low Ki and was a success in Germany and was a huge draw.

And the reason he was a huge draw was because a guy named Misawa formed a company where he allowed Kobashi to shine... Noah.

Misawa may have been the founder of Noah but Kobashi took that company to new heights and without him, who knows how long Noah would have been around. Kobashi was the best for a near twenty-year period and is considered a legend in the Japan wrestling scene. His legacy has surpassed Misawa's and there is no doubt about it.

Noah would have thrived with or without Kobashi. Misawa had a following long before Kobashi arrived on the scene and the main reason Noah soared, not simply flourished was because the two biggest names in Japanese wrestling history worked together.

It really is hard to choose which one of these guys has the bigger legacy, but I believe Misawa has to top the list. He paved the way for a guy like Kobashi and the teacher always has to rank higher than the student when both are on equal footing.

 

[Mr. TM]

Tough debate here. You have two of the most important men ever in professional wrestling in Japan, and in the world. ZTWhite showed his knowledge here.

Clarity Of Debate: Both presented a great flow to your debates. But LJL's failure to attack his opponents posts made him lose this point. Otherwise he was rock solid.

Punctuality: ZTWhite was late here, he should have given LJL the ball to go first.

Informative: Easy to give this point. ZT brought forth a ton of information and it was backed up.

Emotionality: ZTWhite debated like he was a player who caught the ball on his own 0 yard line, with his team down by 6, and no time left on the clock. He ran forth with the ability to see every pocket, and made it all 110 yards (Yeah, I am Canadian) and scored the run.

Persuasion: And it was because of this that ZTWhite won this debate. I fear LJL's knowledge on puro is a lot more limited than ztwhite.

TM rates this ztwhite 4 points to Little Jerry Lawler 1.
__________________

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Argument - Little Jerry Lawler, something tells me you weren't completely comfortable with this topic. ztwhite, for the most part, your arguments were straightforward and to the point.

Point: ztwhite

Punctuality: Little Jerry Lawler gets the point here.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative: Both of you brought in a good amount of information. You were able to do a lot more with it though, ztwhite, so I'll give you the point here.

Point: ztwhite

Emotionality: ztwhite, your posts expressed your sentiments perfectly. You aren't a puro aficionado, but you are familiar with Misawa's work, and you are able to see why he is considered one of the greats. So, props to you on that.

Point: ztwhite

Persuasion: You really brought your A-game, ztwhite, and you will also get the point here. Little Jerry Lawler, I'll chalk this up to you stepping out of your comfort zone. I look forward to a stellar performance from you next week.

Point: ztwhite

tdigle's Score

ztwhite: 4
Little Jerry Lawler: 1

 

[BooCocky]

Clarity- I think both were out of there comfort zone but ZTwhites points were straightforward he did not beat around the bush.

Point- ZTWhite

Punctuality- ZTwhite was late so by default LJL receives the point

Point - Keenan

Informative - Both had some information but Ztwhite had more and used it to his advantage so Ztwhite gets the point.

Point - Ztwhite

Persuasion - this was really tough because I was on the fence on this topic but I believe ZTwhite was a little more persuasive.

Point - Ztwhite

Emotionality- I think both brought forth there A game so no one gets the point,

Final

Ztwhite 3 points
LJL 1 point.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: I liked how ztwhite kept it spot on, and even though it was maybe out of his comfort zone, he still knew his stuff.

Point: ztwhite

Punctuality: What TM said.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative: ztwhite used his information more thoroughly.

Point: ztwhite

Emotionality: while both seemed out of their normal realm of comfort, ztwhite appeared knowledgable and into his posts.

Point: ztwhite

Persuasion: ztwhite did a great job. His final post against LJL is what sealed the win. The topic seemed to hinder LJL, and ztwhite took advantage.

Point: ztwhite

CH David scores this ztwhite 4, Little Jerry Lawler 1.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: I'll give ztwhite the point for this one, nice setup etc. . .

Point: ztwhite

Punctuality: LJL

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative: ztwhite bought up some good info with each post.

Point: ztwhite

Emotionality: I'll give this one to LJL, I like his style, or lack thereof

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Persuasion: ztwhite convinced me of his side of the argument, so he gets the point.

Point: ztwhite

The lord scores this one as;
Little Jerry Lawler: - 2
ztwhite: - 3