LJL, thanks for the quick response. I've got some catching up to do.
Submissions get the crowd more involved than a finisher. Let's say Randy Orton and Batista are fighting. The match goes back and forth and the crowd is entertained with every punch and every kick. Then suddenly, Orton hits the RKO out of nowhere and pins Batista for the victory. Suddenly the crowd seems deflated and a dejected feeling comes like it's over just like that.
There's just SO much I could say about this paragraph... First of all, LJL's example of a high-impact finisher between Orton and Batista is an extreme circumstance that will most likely never happen during an actual matchup. Superstars' high-impact finishers are normally hit out of nowhere in a few different circumstances in a cookie-cutter type of matchup and gain HUGE crowd pops in the process:
a) A setup move used mostly after a barage of comeback moves that were following a heel's assault on the babyface that took up the majority of the match. (i.e. John Cena's Attitude Adjustment, Batista-Bomb, Pedigree)
b) A quick move used as a shocking surprise to an opponent when it appears that a match is out of reach for the underdog at the time. (i.e. Sweet Chin Music, Trouble in Paradise)
c) During in-ring promo segments. Submissions never work during these angles. When competitors' promos come to blows, it's always a high-impact finisher that becomes the equalizer to gain momentum and end a segment.
Submissions are unable to do this.
And make no mistake about it, even though this is a debate, you can't downplay the crowd reaction that a high-impact move gives to a pro-wrestler. To actually say that a crowd feels "deflated and dejected" is a complete exaggeration. If that were the case, high-impact finishers would be ruled out of pro-wrestling completely. However, the greatest wrestlers of all time chose to use high-impact moves as their finishers because of the responses they get from the crowds. Like I mentioned in my previous posts, you think that Hulk Hogan "deflated" a crowd with his Atomic Leg Drop? Or the Rock with his "Rock Bottom"? Or Austin with the "Stone Cold Stunner"? Highly doubtful.
On the other hand, when a superstar tries to use a submission out of nowhere during a match, they have to stop all of the action, set up the move, hold the opponent there for a sufficient amount of time (without downplaying their character's strength in a non-kayfabe sense), and leave a crowd wondering how long it will take them to tap out, even when it's obvious who the winner of the match is going to be. The wrestler will still get a pop for using the move, but that pop doesn't compare to what they'd get if they used a high-impact move. John Cena's Attitude Adjustment gets a larger pop than his STF on most occasions, and this cannot be denied. (Only lately have his submission pops been growing because we just finished a PPV dedicated to submission matchups. This required weeks of building up the mtch with submission scenerios.) Not to mention that submissions are RARELY used in promo segments... as a matter of fact, they have no place in a promo segment. That's because if these segments become physical, the crowd needs to see a superstar use a QUICK move that will debilitate their opponent as a closer to the segment. A submission would just drag out (what is considered most of the time as) an already dragged-out segment of television.
John Cena and Edge are in a long and grueling match. Edge goes for the spear and is countered by John Cena's STF. The crowd is going wild as they wonder whether good will prevail and Cena will make Edge submit or will evil reign supreme and Edge will find some way to break the hold and eventually get the win. Edge strains to get to the ropes and the crowd is on the edge of their seats. The pain is too much to bear and Edge finally submits. The crowd goes wild as good has overcome evil for one day and the fans leave the arena with a smile on their face.
I think we've seen this before, haven't we? Let's face it... only on rare occasions will you see a submission finish to a match that is considered "unique." Your scenerio is absolutely typical of a submission wrestler. And while it may gain some excitement from time to time, that doesn't mean that it should be used as the staple-ending to a match. Since the beginning of the wrestling boom of the 1980's, matches needed endings that left the competitors both looking strong, yet giving them a definitive ending to the matchup. At times and in certain situations, a submission finisher tells the story that is required during a match. However, history shows that the
majority of superstars' matches from the past and present have used high-impact moves. That is simply because those moves provide more excitment to a crowd.
Case in point, look at the finish of the HBK vs. Undertaker match from Wrestlemania. Do you REALLY think that match could have been NEARLY as exciting if you substituted submissions instead of high-impact finishers in that match? I think not. And it's now considered one of the greatest Wrestlemania matches of all time.
I challenge you to name me submission finishes that provide more excitement than high-flying finishers such as Evan Bourne's Shooting Star Press, Jeff Hardy's Swanton Bomb, or Randy Savage's Flying Elbowdrop, crowd-pleasing finishers like Kofi's Trouble in Paradise or Hulk Hogan's Atromic Leg Drop, or unique finishers such as Petey Williams's Canadian Destroyer. Not even the top submissions of today's market such as the STF, Hell's Gate, or Ankle Lock can even
touch those moves. Therefore, even though they work in some situations, the majority of submission-finishers are expendable.
You can say submissions take too long to set up but it captivates the crowd much longer than a non-submission finisher does. Two of the best wrestlers in WWE history are Chris Benoit and Bret Hart and basically their only finisher was a submission. The Sharpshooter and Crippler Crossface were two of the best finishers in history because of the intensity the wrestlers displayed while applying the hold and of its effectiveness. Others have tried to replicate these as finishers but it just doesn't feel the same.
First of all, Benoit also had his Diving Headbutt as a finishing maneuver. And Bret won many, many classic matches by his use of small packages or slick reversals requiring technical mat wrestling instead of his Sharpshooter (Bret vs Piper, Bret vs Perfect) This cannot be denied and it shows that submission finishers arent as effective as you make them out to be.
Secondly, once a wrestler puts their staple on a move, it's rarely viewed with the same effectiveness when used by someone else. But that goes for ALL moves... not just submissions.
When Kurt Angle first debuted in the WWE, he started using the Olympic Slam or Angle Slam as it was later called. Then we he started going to the Ankle Lock, he became one of the most feared competitors to step foot in the squared circle.
You're saying he wasn't feared before starting to use the ankle lock? If I recall correctly, he won the Intercontinental Championship, European Champion, and the WWE Championship (twice) before he even began using the ankle lock as a finisher. Once again, this proves that his ankle lock is totally expendable in his arsenal.
You rarely saw him use the Angle Slam to win matches in the WWE after that, but in TNA it's a different story but that's another discussion entirely.
Another complete farce. Angle used the Angle Slam almost weekly on episodes of Raw and Smackdown to win his matches. Granted, in many of his more
memorable PPV situations he used the ankle lock. However, he was known to be such a dangerous opponent because he had BOTH moves to finish opponents with. This is similar to John Cena, Chris Jericho, the Undertaker, CM Punk, etc. and that is the subject of this debate... whether submissions should be a wrestler's ONLY finisher (at least that's what
I got out of it). You chose that a submission should be their only finish. Kurt Angle is a complete contradiction to this because of the facts I just stated.
Submissions have been the intrical part in the biggest screwjobs ever but if the same screwjob happened with a spear or a DDT, would it have had the same effect? It won't and that's why submissions are better overall.
Not true at all. In the case of Bret vs HBK, Hebner rang the bell and ended the match suddenly because he claimed that Bret gave a verbal submission. The same goes for when Mankind submitted to the Rock and when the Undertaker submitted to CM Punk. That's the problem with submission finishers. When applied, there are two ways for the opponent to quit the match... verbally or by tapping out. On the other hand, when it comes to high-impact finishers, you need to execute your move and follow it with a 3-count pinfall. It is the most undeniable and decisive way to gain a victory. A referee can easily lie about an opponent's verbal submission, but after a high-impact finisher, a ref MUST provide a full three-count to prove a victory.
The issue I have about submissions making the opponent weak is that it can make the wrestler applying the hold weak more often that not. Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels at WM 21 is regarded as one of the best Wrestlemania matches of all time. What lessened the impact of the match in some people's eyes is that Michaels was in the Ankle Lock for five minutes before finally tapping out. It made Angle look like he couldn't put away Michaels quickly and it could hurt the credibility of his submission hold because the fans will think he can't win with it and he will have to go to something else.
You're proving my point here. Wrestlers have egos and they never want to appear weak in a matchup. It hurts their credibility. When they tap out to a submission finisher, they look weak. If they apply a submission finisher that someone won't tap out to, it makes THEM look weak.
Now if a wrestler kicks out of a high-impact finisher, it makes that receipient look stronger. But the attacking wrestler would still look strong in this situation because if the receipient kicked out (making them look strong), it makes us believe that it would be shocking if the recipient is able to kick out after that move becuase the high-impact finisher is so strong. For some reason, the same formula doesn't seem to work with submissions. If someone kicks out of a submission finisher, the attacker becomes weak and the recipient stays the same.
With all of this being said, in a nut shell, submissions are a lose-lose situation for a wrestler. However, high-impact moves always provide excitement.
