Week 6: Mantaur Rodeo Clown -versus- Littler Jerry Lawler

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
More matches or more promos on a weekly show for the WWE in 2009: What is more important?

Little Jerry Lawler is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
Hello and welcome to 2009. How are you today? Whats’ that? You want to watch some wrestling? You haven’t watched it in a while and want to see the best show? Ok, I’ll show you (Mantaur Rodeo Clown switches on Smackdown!) Whats that? When you watched 10 years ago, RAW was better? Well let me tell you why it’s different.

Smackdown, and sometimes ECW are often considered the “wrestling shows”. You see the best matches and a lot more wrestling than on most other shows. When there are only a few matches, they are long and interesting to watch, not squashes, not boring. Most of the candidates for TV match of the year would be coming from Smackdown no doubt. But the question raised wasn’t “Which show has better wrestling?” but rather “Why are these matches more important than promos?”

Fans don’t want to tune in and just watch promos. Promos are an integral part of the show and a build, for sure, but in now way should they make up a larger percentage of the show. The Miz’s promos on John Cena were hilarious, and made that feud. But if Vince McMahon wants ratings, he knows that not every superstar on the show can just cut a promo. They need guys like Kofi Kingston out there to wrestle, because at the end of the day, that’s what I personally tune in for, and what most fans would. They tune in for a stellar main event. If it were mainly promos then what is the differentiator between RAW and a TV Drama?

Why are these matches more important? Why aren’t promos allowed to make up a larger portion of the show? Because things have changed since the attitude era. Unless you have two absolutely stellar talkers with charisma to spare in the ring, most people will get tired of a segment after about 10 minutes. Why? I hate to paraphrase Lord Sidious here, but the business is becoming more “ROH like”. But it is true, with the rise of UFC, and MMA in general, as well as ROH with amazing in-ring performances that seemingly needed no extensive mic work to back them up, the audience changed. They wanted to see some good matches, wanted to be the critic themselves, their own Dave Meltzer and watch those matches. They want to decide whether John Morrison was going to be the next superstar. Evidently, it is through his matches and not his promos that have gotten him to that level.

Because not everyone is The Rock. Not everyone can command a crowd like Chris Jericho, and garner the rage like CM Punk. Morrison is a prime example, right here in 2009. In 2009, it seems that we can judge a person on their in ring work rather than their promo work. If more angles and promos took up time on Smackdown, and that was all Morrison was given to work with, we’d hate him. He is clunky on the mic, and hasn’t quite felt it out yet. But is he a terrible wrestler? No. And how do we know this? Via seeing him in more matches, where matches have taken up most of Smackdown programming. Thus we can see what he can do.

I could chart off more than a few guys in the same boat. Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler. All guys who are being considered the future of the company, and all without being given much mic time at all. They proved their metal in a couple years in the ring and that’s it. And what about someone who has based their career more on promos time than ring work? MVP. Has his own show to cut promos on for god sakes, and I guarantee he isn’t as popular as Kofi Kingston, who uses his matches as a selling point.

Now I know I’m going to hear the argument “Well ya know, TV is supposed to build up the PPV, so you can’t give away the matches”. Yeah yeah, but wait a second, when CM Punk wrestled on Smackdown prior to Summerslam, was he fighting in a TLC match? Is John Cena facing Legacy in I Quit Matches? No. People buy the PPV for those matches, but they still expect to see regular matches and tag matches on TV. In no way is Jeff Hardy up against John Morrison spoiling his match with upcoming match CM Punk. I tell you what it did do though. It not only boosted Jeff Hardy’s credibility as a champion, but also John Morrison’s credibility as challenger. Morrison doesn’t always make it to pay per view. But should that limit him? If he wasn’t getting matches on PPV cards, and promos were more important, then it might be a problem. But since the matches are more integral on Smackdown, he is uber-over simply on match work.

I have been ranting and raving so I will end with this. In this day and age, with a smarter audience, and less emphasis on the build and more on the match itself, matches have become more important on a weekly show.
 
I've heard from countless people on this forums that the wrestlers of today lack a character. It seems like they are blandless drones wandering around the ring for our amusement. We complain about how RAW is all about entertainment and features no wrestling while we praise Smackdown and ECW for the opposite. There have been great matches in 2009 but the problem is that there haven't been many great promos and that is what we need more of.

Sure there have been wrestlers such as Chris Benoit and Brock Lesnar who were over mainly because of their matches and not necessarily their mic or promo skills. However, they are on the short list of those who can achieve that. What is the main problem people have with Shelton Benjamin? He is bland and uncharismatic and can't cut a promo to save his life. He can have all the great matches he wants to, but if he can captivate the audience with his words then he cannot captivate the audience with his in-ring work.

I will hear that it's what you do in the ring that counts and then you can make all the promos you want. When a new superstar debuts, you usually get a debut promo from him or her lasting a couple of weeks before their first match. I remember tuning in to Smackdown one night and I saw a promo about this new superstar Kizarny. It was strange and weird but it made me want to see what he is all about. When it came time to wrestle, he was awful and was released shortly thereafter. That goes to show that you can have great promos, but you are screwed if you can't have a good match.

Nowadays, matches are being thrown together with no storyline or feud behind them. You look on a PPV card and say, "Where in the hell did this match come from?" I would like to refer to the so-called rivalry between MVP and Jack Swagger. I remember one of their first promos during MVP's VIP Lounge. Swagger and MVP were great on the mic and I was looking forward to a possible feud. Then it seem to fizzle because they didn't cut much promos after that. Then they just announced their match for Summerslam out of nowhere and I believe it would have been a better match if they were allowed to cut more promos in the weeks leading up to the match.

When wrestlers cut promos, what you want to see is the passion in their voice that makes you believe what they are saying is true and you either cheer them or hate them. What made HHH one of the best heels this decades was not only his matches, but his promos before said matches. Let me give you an example of one of his promos in 2005.

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That was one of the best heel promos I've seen from HHH and it led to a great match between him and Randy Orton at the Royal Rumble. There need to be more heel or face promos like these to sell to the crowd so great matches can build from it. Jericho and Punk cut great promos each and every week and the crowd buys into what they are saying and boo the hell out of them. If you can't do a good promo, then they are not going to care much about your matches.
 
I've heard from countless people on this forums that the wrestlers of today lack a character. It seems like they are blandless drones wandering around the ring for our amusement. We complain about how RAW is all about entertainment and features no wrestling while we praise Smackdown and ECW for the opposite. There have been great matches in 2009 but the problem is that there haven't been many great promos and that is what we need more of.

But why do we particularly connote being able to cut a great promo as having a character? Why have they been tied together in such a way? Bret Hart is one of the all time greats, yet I wouldn’t say he was particularly good on the microphone. He was immensely popular simply due to the fact that people loved to watch him wrestle. Which is sort of what the wrestling business is all about entertaining people in a 4 (or 6 as the case may be) sided ring by offering yourself and all that you can do to the audience. But I’m sure you’ll address this now.

Sure there have been wrestlers such as Chris Benoit and Brock Lesnar who were over mainly because of their matches and not necessarily their mic or promo skills. However, they are on the short list of those who can achieve that.

I wouldn’t necessarily say they are on the shortlist. In ECW, CM Punk was mainly over because he was an entertaining wrestler, and hardly cut any promos at all, even during his title run. However it was still an immensely popular period for him. If you have the talent to achieve it, a wrestler can get over in this way, without being Ricky Steamboat in the ring. Speaking of which, he was another great non-promo reliant wrestler.

What is the main problem people have with Shelton Benjamin? He is bland and uncharismatic and can't cut a promo to save his life. He can have all the great matches he wants to, but if he can captivate the audience with his words then he cannot captivate the audience with his in-ring work.

But heres the thing. In the 2004 to 2006 period, he WAS loved by the fans. He hardly did any talking at all, but everyone was calling him a future world champion. He captivated people with his insane dives in Money in The Bank matches, or just on regular TV, after he was drafted to RAW in 2004. Every wrestling fan was swooning that he wasn’t being utilised properly and he was so underrated when he stole the show every night such as the Gold Rush Tournament in 2005. The fact of the matter is, he COULD get over being uncharismatic and bored. The fact of the matter is that when given the ball he couldn’t run with it. We might say had he been more confident he could have gone further.

But by the same token, would Bret Hart have gone further if he had charisma like Dwayne Johnson? I don’t think so, which is why I don’t necessarily think that skills on the stick would have helped Benjamin, as he could excel and could have succeeded without them, if not for other factors.


I will hear that it's what you do in the ring that counts and then you can make all the promos you want. When a new superstar debuts, you usually get a debut promo from him or her lasting a couple of weeks before their first match. I remember tuning in to Smackdown one night and I saw a promo about this new superstar Kizarny. It was strange and weird but it made me want to see what he is all about. When it came time to wrestle, he was awful and was released shortly thereafter. That goes to show that you can have great promos, but you are screwed if you can't have a good match.

This is pretty much another point in my pocket. All the great promos can’t save a boring in ring worker. Everyone credits The Rock for the catchphrases and rants, but he was just as able in the ring as anyone. He could really go, which is why people cared about him, because he WASN’T a failure in the ring, he wasn’t just a one trick pony.

That was one of the best heel promos I've seen from HHH and it led to a great match between him and Randy Orton at the Royal Rumble. There need to be more heel or face promos like these to sell to the crowd so great matches can build from it.

But would the crowd have really been looking forward to it, had HHH and Orton not been good in the ring? If they had not seen them wrestle great matches on TV, would they have been as keen to purchase the PPV? Methinks not. Because although The Miz is very entertaining, and can create a brilliant feud out of nothing, the problem is that I would not look forward to a PPV match with him in it at all. The only reason people wanted to see The Miz vs Cena was to see him get thrashed.

Morrison (my poster child for this particular debate it seems) on the other hand is the reverse. He could cut no promos at all, and maybe even have sparing appearances on Smackdown!, but I know that at the PPV, I am going to be dazzled by his wrestling, and I will really enjoy the match. And that it seems is the main point I’m arguing. If you are gearing all your TV time to building a PPV, don’t you want to entice your audience to watch something brilliant, instead of another squash they may not be interested in, albeit a well built up one?
And if you are aiming to get TV ratings up, and sell more advertising space, wouldn’t you be more enticed to put better matches on your show rather than promos, as they will almost always have better potential of being memorable and enjoyable?

Jericho and Punk cut great promos each and every week and the crowd buys into what they are saying and boo the hell out of them. If you can't do a good promo, then they are not going to care much about your matches.

But here is the flaw in your logic. This would be a great point, if only CM Punk and Jericho were awful in the ring. If they were boring and sluggish, but still managed to get over solely on promo skills, then you would have a point. But they aren’t. They have had great matches all year, not only on pay per view but also on TV. This only accentuates what they’re saying, proving they have every right to be obnoxious. They are not only two of the best promo cutters in the WWE right now, but also some of the finest in ring workers.
 
1. As I've said before, Bret Hart was one of the few who can get over on his wrestling ability more than his promo skills. I would contribute that to him being in a different era. Most of the superstars in the 80's and early 90's could entertain the crowd just on the way they wrestled. Nowadays, crowds get turned off by a great match because they deem it boring if it gets too technical. Kozlov/HHH was a good match but it barely got a reaction because the crowd thought it too boring. You have to have promos to further storylines and feuds. Shelton Benjamin can have the best in-ring skills in the world but in this day and age, if you can't cut a good promo once in a while then chances are you are not going to advance.

2. We've heard and said many great things about the Rock from the way he gets a crowd entertained to all his catchprase that he used. The one thing that gets overlooked is his wrestling ability. He has some damn good matches in his career but we tend to focus on his promos and backstage interviews which were classic. The Rock had both of those attributes but the promos are what everybody remembers the most.

3. Putting more matches on TV can have a negative effect though when it comes to PPV's. TNA has some great weekly shows but their PPV's don't come up to snuff because they show all the great matches on free TV which gives buyers no incentive to buy the PPV. The WWE has had some good great PPV matches which never happened on free TV. I don't believe Jericho/Mysterio has happened before they feuded so that was a great way to start on a PPV. Same goes for the Jeff Hardy/CM Punk feud. More matches may be good for RAW, ECW, and Smackdown but they can severely impact PPV buyrates and that is what Vince probably cares about the most.
 
Clarity Of Debate: LJL was close to losing this, as I really feel he has to directly attack his opponents points better. But he does get this point for his posts having great flow.

Punctuality: LJL def gets this, and I give him a hand.

Informative: LJL brought up a lot better information here, and although deep, Ill get to its failure.

Emotionality: MRC is similar to Gelgarin, and I will give that point to him as well as Gelgarin in their debates.

Persuasion: LJL had all the points in the world, but I feel he did not back them up enough. Because of this, MRC persuaded me a lot better than his opponent, and thus, gets the point.

TM rates this LJL 3 points to MRC 2.
 
Clarity - Little Jerry Lawler, your argument was packed with information and to the point.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Punctuality - Little Jerry Lawler again gets the point.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative - I'm inclined to split the point here. In fact, I'm going to, as I've seen TM do it himself on a few occasions. You brought in a lot of great information, Little Jerry Lawler, but you need to demonstrate not only how it strengthens your argument, but also how it weakens your opponent's argument.

Point: Split

Emotionality - Point definitely goes to Mantaur Rodeo Clown. Little Jerry Lawler, be more aggressive in your argumentation!

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Persuasion - Like TM, I was ultimately swayed by what Mantaur Rodeo Clown had to offer. While your argument wasn't as solid as Littler Jerry Lawler's argument, Mantaur Rodeo Clown, it was still good, as was your rebuttal; unfortunately, there was no direct rebuttal on Little Jerry Lawler's part.

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

tdigle's Score

Mantaur Rodeo Clown - 2.5
Little Jerry Lawler - 2.5
 
Clarity: Like TM said, LJL had some great flow in his posts, and it was very clear to read.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Punctuality: LJL gets this point.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative: Both brought up information, but neither one of you really were able to discredit the other that much.

Point: Split

Emotionality: MRC gets the point.

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Persuasion: Neither persuaded me that much. Both were like salesmen, they had a good selling point, but just didn't have that little extra something to persuade me to buy it.

Point: Split

CH David scores this Little Jerry Lawler 3, Mantaur Rodeo Clown 2.
 
Clarity: Little Jerry Lawler was a lot easier to read through

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Punctuality: Little Jerry Lawler

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Informative: I'd say Little Jerry Lawler had the most information, maybe the clowns was more relevant though, I'll split the point

Point: Split

Emotionality: MRC showed some soul, I am not sure how thats relevant but it sounded cool

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Persuasion: Sailor Jerry's did a better job of convincing me on this one

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

My pointing for this match is

Little Jerry Lawler - 3.5
Mantaur Rodeo Clown - 1.5
 

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