Week 9: Phoenix -versus- General Disarray

[Mr. TM]

Santino Marella: Better heel or face?

General Disarray is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[gd]

What in the hell kind of a topic is this? I guess I'll go with Santino as a heel, Phoenix can go first.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm rather bemused by this topic given Santino has only been a face for 3 months of his whole career...

But I suppose I have to roll with it. Will post my starter abit later unless there's a topic change

 

[Phoenix]

Looking forward to debating with you GD!

Ladies and Gentleman, we have one of the all time greats* in Santino Marella, but what is it about him as a face that makes him more popular than a heel? Well this is what we're here to find out.

Debut

When Santino debuted, he was a planted fan in his "native" country of Italy where Mr. McMahon called out a random fan to face Umaga for the Intercontinental Title. Santino debuted on this night, but despite the interference and him being a minor involvement in the Lashley/McMahon feud, Santino got over because of it. He was Intercontinental Champion on his debut and fans were already chanting his name before the match even started.

[youtube]/v/tkHpvMptEDo&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]

Fact is he already got a huge rub from McMahon, the current Intercontinental Champion Umaga and Bobby Lashley who was hugely over with the crowd, this set up one of the biggest upsets in WWE history but also gave us a new hero in Santina Marella.

He wasn't made to job

One of the important matters with Santino was the fact that when he was a face, he didn't job for anyone, he held the IC Title for a good 3 months before losing it to Umaga (which led to his heel turn). But the fact is that he booked to be a credible wrestler as well as a credible IC Champion, he didn't disgrace it, he made it work. In comparison to his heel turn, he became a comedy jobber for life. We even have that as our lowest rank for posting on the forums, it shows he's a joke to us when he was a heel.

While he may have some funny moments, he was made to look bad, is there anyone on the roster who has hasn't faced Santino yet and squashed him when he was a heel? Even the Divas were beating him which takes his wrestling credibility as a face downwards, he was better as a face because he career wasn't hurt by the fact he was booked to lose against Divas. His heel run has become the equivelent of Funaki or Chavo Guerrero, booked for comedy purposes at the sake of his credibility and this has hurt his character when he had a good strong run as a face.

During his heel run these have occured:
- Won the IC Title because Beth Phoenix won the pin at Summerslam
- Jobbed to Ron Simmons, a retired wrestler
- Jobbed to the Divas roster
- Eliminated in 1.9 seconds in the Royal Rumble
- Jobbed to most of the locker room, even during his second IC title run
- Took a sucker punch from Snoop Dogg

It's proven that ever since he turned heel, it's made his career more laughable than anything, we even felt the IC title was being disgraced because they couldn't book much with him, no rivalry just standard jobbing to beat the Honky Tonk Man's run and they ended it because it wasn't going successfully.

Santino as a face gave just a credible wrestler and the heel turn has made us strongly forget he can wrestle when he spends most of his time in hog pens and jobbing to Divas who have very limiting wrestling ability at the time he faced them (Maria).

Currently WWE has no programming for him except for backstage segments but he's being slowly regaining a face turn and we might see hope and an actual career as a wrestler. But has the heel run affect it too much for us to remember what credibility he has a wrestler? Only time will tell. But it shows why Santino Marella is better as a face as opposed to a comedy heel jobber for life!





* For comedy purposes

 

[gd]

So, this week I get the privlege to talk about one of the best wrestlers of all the times,
Santino Marella. It is clear that throughout his run in the WWE, Santino has been better as a heel than a face, here are a few reasons why.

He has hardly ever been a face. - Santino was a face for 3 months when he debuted and has been a face for about 4 or 5 months since his break up with the Glamazon, but other than that, his entire WWE career has been as a heel. That has to tell you something. Creative, Vince, and the fans all prefer Santino as a heel opposed to a face.

The Quest to Beat the Honky Donkey Man - The Glamazon Story - When Santino teamed with Beth last summer and won the IC Title at Summerslam, it was the biggest and most relevant period of his career. Santino was the highlight of Raw each and every week during that time and we all couldn't get enough of him. Just look at the SFAC. He may not have been wrestling 20 minute matches every time out, but the IC Title had never been more entertaining and interesting than the time he held it. He also made Beth and Rosa Mendes relevant during this time, something that they aren't now.

Stone Cold - Besides his run with the Glamazon, Santino had other great experiences as a heel. His tag team with Carlito, his relationship with Maria which really got her over, and of coure his rivalry with Stone Cold. Santino must've been doing something right as a heel to be involved with one of the biggest names in wrestling history. Stomping mudpies is something we'll all remember.

Insignificant Face Run - Santino's first run as a face consisted of an IC Title run that wan't anywhere near the level of his latter, heel title run. Ever since his latest face turn, he has done nothing of consequence. He has been reduced to doing stupid segments with the guest hosts and jobbing to pretty much everyone on the roster.

Santino was entertaining, fun, successful, and relevant as a heel. As a face, he is hardly ever on TV, and when he is, it is rather pointless.

 

[Phoenix]

He has hardly ever been a face. - Santino was a face for 3 months when he debuted and has been a face for about 4 or 5 months since his break up with the Glamazon, but other than that, his entire WWE career has been as a heel. That has to tell you something. Creative, Vince, and the fans all prefer Santino as a heel opposed to a face.

While it's easier to be a heel in wrestling, Santino got over with the crowd instantly as a face, he had the support and popularity behind him when he won the IC Title in that night in Milan. Despite him being a planted "hometown boy", he was having chants for him being done and he was unknown to the world by then. He was better and more credible as a face, the fans supported him.

We can only say we prefer Santino as a comical piss take which is what we enjoy about him week in and week out, it wasn't about his heel factor that put him over, it's the comedy he puts in. If anything his promos made him more of a tweener, he had the fans behind him as opposed to booing him, a face factor of his character which unfortunately gets overshadowed by his heel based 30 second jobbing to someone like Charlie Haas or Maria.

As a face, we got Santino the wrestler, someone with a credible match history, feuding with solid workers like Umaga and Chris Masters, which got him over because of it.

The Quest to Beat the Honky Donkey Man - The Glamazon Story - When Santino teamed with Beth last summer and won the IC Title at Summerslam, it was the biggest and most relevant period of his career. Santino was the highlight of Raw each and every week during that time and we all couldn't get enough of him. Just look at the SFAC. He may not have been wrestling 20 minute matches every time out, but the IC Title had never been more entertaining and interesting than the time he held it. He also made Beth and Rosa Mendes relevant during this time, something that they aren't now.

Given the fact he only won the IC title because of a woman pinning another diva got him the belt, he had no credibility to hold the belt compared to his first title run. He didn't need the belt because Kofi was getting over as a champion, it got the fans annoyed because we had to see a title change to get over Beth Phoenix being a demasculating diva, aka Chyna version 2.

As for the IC Title not being more entertaining and interesting, I could easily refer to the Jericho/Benoit feud over that belt, or Edge and Christian. What Santino did was really irrelevant

Stone Cold - Besides his run with the Glamazon, Santino had other great experiences as a heel. His tag team with Carlito, his relationship with Maria which really got her over, and of coure his rivalry with Stone Cold. Santino must've been doing something right as a heel to be involved with one of the biggest names in wrestling history. Stomping mudpies is something we'll all remember.

Maria was already over because she was a nice piece of eye candy and her Playboy feature got her over more significantly. All it did was to give Santino something to do, which if I recall correctly was accept a fist from Snoop Dogg, jobbing to him.

As for Stone Cold, it was to promote the DVD release of The Condemned, a film which they accepted was a flop. While Santino was the best way to show they messed up (and greatly mock) that film, it more for plugging than putting Santino there with Austin. It was rather more of a convenience of timing than "Oh Santino is doing great, lets put him with Austin". I mean Austin has had segments with Carlito and we don't put that as Carlito being great, just rather someone Austin just stun and drink a few beers to the cheers of the crowd.

Insignificant Face Run - Santino's first run as a face consisted of an IC Title run that wan't anywhere near the level of his latter, heel title run. Ever since his latest face turn, he has done nothing of consequence. He has been reduced to doing stupid segments with the guest hosts and jobbing to pretty much everyone on the roster.

Santino was entertaining, fun, successful, and relevant as a heel. As a face, he is hardly ever on TV, and when he is, it is rather pointless.

You mean when he was heel right? Because Santino's matches had a tendency to last 30 seconds, I think the only thing surely than that was his appearance in the Royal Rumble (1.9 seconds). His Second Intercontinental run didn't benefit the title at all, it was going nowhere and was a complete joke, a jobbing heel the IC Champion? They pulled the idea after a number of weeks and Regal beat Santino in 10 Seconds to win the title off of him, is that really bringing up the prestige of the belt? If he really did benefit the belt during his second run, then why wasn't he added to the Tournament for the IC Title's Number One Contendership to face Regal? Snitsky got in but Santino didn't, it just shows that it Santino as IC Champion during his heel run was a joke, otherwise he would be still doing that programme right now. Furthermore to the joke, if it did work, how come he never featured on a PPV match when he won the belt until Cyber Sunday? That was more about the legend he would face rather than the IC belt.

Since his face turn with the "Santina" angle, he was featured on 3 PPVs in the space of 3 months (Wrestlemania, Backlash and Extreme Rules), he got to have a Wrestlemania moment but he also got over by abusing Vickie Guerrero, who was the company's most hated character by the fan, even more than Vinnie Mac at this time. Despite knowing that Vickie Guerrero was on her way out, Santino still got over because of the humiliation he was providing in her direction.

While has hasn't featured in as many matches, his match lengths have increased by far since he was a heel. While he might be messing with Guest Hosts, he's assisting in making them have a big role on the show. While the Guest Host situation isn't going as swimmingly well, Santino's comic relief assists with the GHs to give them a chance to entertaining to the fans.

Santino plays the role of "Entertainment" extremely well in the WWE but his heel promos get more cheers than jeers, which shows they have a face value, if he was legit heel, he would be getting Jericho style boos. His matches were short run but he gets more better time when he's a face and is comic relief for the fans. Only a face can provide comic relief for the fans and Santino does that. How many times have you laughed at his jokes? If he was a heel you're booked to hate him but he was loved by the fans because he was funny, that's how he makes it better as a tweener/face

 

[gd]

Looking forward to debating with you GD!

Don't blame you.

Ladies and Gentleman, we have one of the all time greats* in Santino Marella, but what is it about him as a face that makes him more popular than a heel? Well this is what we're here to find out.

Can't wait.

Debut

When Santino debuted, he was a planted fan in his "native" country of Italy where Mr. McMahon called out a random fan to face Umaga for the Intercontinental Title. Santino debuted on this night, but despite the interference and him being a minor involvement in the Lashley/McMahon feud, Santino got over because of it. He was Intercontinental Champion on his debut and fans were already chanting his name before the match even started.

Being an Italian in Italy will do that for you.

[youtube]/v/tkHpvMptEDo&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]

Indeed, good stuff.

Fact is he already got a huge rub from McMahon, the current Intercontinental Champion Umaga and Bobby Lashley who was hugely over with the crowd, this set up one of the biggest upsets in WWE history but also gave us a new hero in Santina Marella.

Biggest upset in WWE history? I think you're exaggerating just a bit there.

He wasn't made to job

One of the important matters with Santino was the fact that when he was a face, he didn't job for anyone, he held the IC Title for a good 3 months before losing it to Umaga (which led to his heel turn).

Holding the IC or US Title for a long period of time isn't that hard and just because you hold it for a long time, that doesn't make it significant. Santino's second run was much better.

But the fact is that he booked to be a credible wrestler as well as a credible IC Champion, he didn't disgrace it, he made it work.

Santino wasn't exactly the strongest booked wrestler, even when he was the champ. You know that. His win over Umaga was a fluke and he never really dominated as IC Champ. Don't try to make is seem as if Santino was a credible wrestler, because he never really has been.

In comparison to his heel turn, he became a comedy jobber for life. We even have that as our lowest rank for posting on the forums, it shows he's a joke to us when he was a heel.

First of all, it doesn't say "heel" comedy jobber for life, now does it? He is much less signifcant and jobberish now than he was as a heel, when he was actually winning matches. Secondly, you can't trust everything that is said on these forums.

While he may have some funny moments, he was made to look bad, is there anyone on the roster who has hasn't faced Santino yet and squashed him when he was a heel?

Probably, but I do know Big Show, The Miz, and Chris Masters have all dominated him as a face recently.

Even the Divas were beating him which takes his wrestling credibility as a face downwards, he was better as a face because he career wasn't hurt by the fact he was booked to lose against Divas. His heel run has become the equivelent of Funaki or Chavo Guerrero, booked for comedy purposes at the sake of his credibility and this has hurt his character when he had a good strong run as a face.

He lost against Mickie James, one of the greatest Diva's ever, with a hand tied behind his back. Plus, it was one of the most entertaining matches in recent memory, how is that bad? It is much better and more entertaining than his stupid rivalry with Vickie, in which he was a face.

During his heel run these have occured:

Let's see.

- Won the IC Title because Beth Phoenix won the pin at Summerslam

I know, he won a title at the second biggest PPV of the year, how awful.

- Jobbed to Ron Simmons, a retired wrestler

DAMN! He was a former world champ as well.

- Jobbed to the Divas roster

If by the Diva's roster you mean Mickie James, then I guess. Regardless, he was entertaining while doing it, which is what really counts.

- Eliminated in 1.9 seconds in the Royal Rumble

The greatest 1.9 seconds of the entire match.

- Jobbed to most of the locker room, even during his second IC title run

Like who? Batista and John Cena? Certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

- Took a sucker punch from Snoop Dogg

Chris Jericho and Big Show have also took sucker punces from celebs, what's your point.

It's proven that ever since he turned heel, it's made his career more laughable than anything,

In a good way. Any wrestler who can make me laugh is doing a great job.

we even felt the IC title was being disgraced because they couldn't book much with him

Who is "we"? I certainly didn't feel the IC Title was being disgraced, if anything, it was made to be more relevant than ever. When Santino held it, the midcard title on Raw meant something. Now, the midcard title on Raw is an afterthought.

no rivalry just standard jobbing to beat the Honky Tonk Man's run and they ended it because it wasn't going successfully.

How was he jobbing if he was winning? Anyway, it ended because there is no way the WWE could handle a 64 week title reign. If Santino would've actually broken HTM's record, he would've just been selfish.

Santino as a face gave just a credible wrestler and the heel turn has made us strongly forget he can wrestle

SANTINO NEVER WAS A CREDIBLE WRESTLER! Regardless of his alignment, Santino has never been comparable in the ring to others, at least kayfabe wise.

when he spends most of his time in hog pens

When he was a face.

and jobbing to Divas who have very limiting wrestling ability at the time he faced them (Maria).

Great match, one of the most entertaining I've ever seen. Just because Santino doesn't win a ton of matches (as a face or a heel) he is fun to watch, especially when he's a heel.

Currently WWE has no programming for him except for backstage segments but he's being slowly regaining a face turn and we might see hope and an actual career as a wrestler.

He's been a face ever since the whole Vickie/Santina fiasco. Have you been watching? Where has this face turn led him? Apperaing infrequently on Raw (he was on ever single week during his heel run) and when he does appear, its only during stupid skits with the guest hosts or jobbing to further other wrestlers storylines, not his own. (his match against Miz, bodyslam challenge against Big Show)

But has the heel run affect it too much for us to remember what credibility he has a wrestler? Only time will tell. But it shows why Santino Marella is better as a face as opposed to a comedy heel jobber for life!

How has his heel run affected him negatively at all? It put him in the spotlight and made him one of the most talked about and popular wrestlers in all of the WWE. However, when the WWE foolishly decided to turn him face, his career and entertainment value have went down the tank.

* For comedy purposes

He's not even that funny as a face, he's just pathetic. As a heel, he is one of the most intriguing wrestlers of all the times.

While it's easier to be a heel in wrestling,

This is true, why Santino is much better as a heel. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a face.

Santino got over with the crowd instantly as a face, he had the support and popularity behind him when he won the IC Title in that night in Milan.

When a new, interesting person comes out of the crowd and wins the title from a monster right away, the crowd will love it. However, that success if fleeting. Just look at Taylor Wilde. She beat Kong while coming out of the crowd, but her Title run proved to be lackluster overall.

Despite him being a planted "hometown boy",

What do you mean "despite"? It was because of him being planted that he was so over.

he was having chants for him being done and he was unknown to the world by then. He was better and more credible as a face, the fans supported him.

He obviously wasn't credible, we've been through this already. He relied on fluke wins.

We can only say we prefer Santino as a comical piss take which is what we enjoy about him week in and week out, it wasn't about his heel factor that put him over, it's the comedy he puts in.

Indeed, and his comedy was great, especially as a heel. It's much easier to use his comedy against faces. Not only does it allow him to be entertaining, but it puts over the faces as well. If you took a piss break during one second of Santino's latest IC Title run then I truly feel sorry for you.

If anything his promos made him more of a tweener, he had the fans behind him as opposed to booing him, a face factor of his character which unfortunately gets overshadowed by his heel

Just because Santino wasn't a "traditional" heel, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. He was still feuding against faces and acting like a heel in many ways, he just threw in comedy as well to entertain the fans. He was like John Morrison in this way.

based 30 second jobbing to someone like Charlie Haas or Maria.

When did he job to Haas? If it was during the costume phase, that doesn't really count. Legit wrestlers like MVP and JBL lost to Haas during this period as well.

As a face, we got Santino the wrestler, someone with a credible match history, feuding with solid workers like Umaga and Chris Masters, which got him over because of it.

We've already established Santino wasn't and never will be credible, especially not as a face. Did you see Raw this week? Masters (who has been MIA for awhile) destroyed Santino.

Given the fact he only won the IC title because of a woman pinning another diva got him the belt, he had no credibility to hold the belt compared to his first title run. He didn't need the belt because Kofi was getting over as a champion, it got the fans annoyed because we had to see a title change to get over Beth Phoenix being a demasculating diva, aka Chyna version 2.

You can't honestly say that Santino's IC run was a bad thing. Kofi wasn't doing much with the belt, and Glamerella was a much better and more intriguing storyline. Not only was it the highlight on Santino's career, it was also the highlight of Beth's. I was genuinely excited about watching Raw and Santino every week during this period, he's a mere afterthought now, and so is Beth.

As for the IC Title not being more entertaining and interesting, I could easily refer to the Jericho/Benoit feud over that belt, or Edge and Christian. What Santino did was really irrelevant

Compared to the reigns directly before and after Santino's (Kofi and Regal) his was by far the best. Jericho/Benoit was in a completely different era where PPVs were brand exclusive and every title mattered.

Maria was already over because she was a nice piece of eye candy and her Playboy feature got her over more significantly. All it did was to give Santino something to do, which if I recall correctly was accept a fist from Snoop Dogg, jobbing to him.

Maria would've been just another pretty face without Santino. Because of there realtionship, she was given an actual character and there was reason for us to care about her.

As for Stone Cold, it was to promote the DVD release of The Condemned, a film which they accepted was a flop. While Santino was the best way to show they messed up (and greatly mock) that film, it more for plugging than putting Santino there with Austin. It was rather more of a convenience of timing than "Oh Santino is doing great, lets put him with Austin". I mean Austin has had segments with Carlito and we don't put that as Carlito being great, just rather someone Austin just stun and drink a few beers to the cheers of the crowd.

Regardless of the circumstances, anytime you work with a legend it is an honor. Santino did everything he could to make Austin look good and entertain us while doing so. It was Austin's fault the movie flopped, not Santino's.

You mean when he was heel right? Because Santino's matches had a tendency to last 30 seconds, I think the only thing surely than that was his appearance in the Royal Rumble (1.9 seconds).

Santino has never had long matches, as a face or a heel. I don't want to keep repeating this.

His Second Intercontinental run didn't benefit the title at all, it was going nowhere and was a complete joke, a jobbing heel the IC Champion?

It was the most memorable IC Title reign of the last few years by far. How is that hurting the title?

They pulled the idea after a number of weeks and Regal beat Santino in 10 Seconds to win the title off of him, is that really bringing up the prestige of the belt?

The WWE thought it would, but obviously they were wrong as Regal's run was a flop.

If he really did benefit the belt during his second run, then why wasn't he added to the Tournament for the IC Title's Number One Contendership to face Regal? Snitsky got in but Santino didn't, it just shows that it Santino as IC Champion during his heel run was a joke, otherwise he would be still doing that programme right now.

Because it was made clear that he had already gotten his shot and wouldn't be getting another one. It can all be made clear in this aweome rap, which Santino did as a heel.

[YOUTUBE]vdSr-2yHhmI[/YOUTUBE]

Furthermore to the joke, if it did work, how come he never featured on a PPV match when he won the belt until Cyber Sunday? That was more about the legend he would face rather than the IC belt.

Like I said, PPVs are really crowded nowadays. It is really tough to get on the card, especially with a midcard title. Kofi hasn't been able to do it until HIAC and Morrison/Ziggler didn't make the last PPV. At least Santino was in a PPV match, something that he isn't going to do anytime soon with his current face run.

Since his face turn with the "Santina" angle, he was featured on 3 PPVs in the space of 3 months (Wrestlemania, Backlash and Extreme Rules), he got to have a Wrestlemania moment but he also got over by abusing Vickie Guerrero, who was the company's most hated character by the fan, even more than Vinnie Mac at this time. Despite knowing that Vickie Guerrero was on her way out, Santino still got over because of the humiliation he was providing in her direction.

The Santina angle was horrible and the start of Santino's downfall. The segments with Vickie weren't funny, especially not compared to his previous work. The Hog Pen match was awful and the whole thing led nowhere, it was just a way for Vince to embarass someone who was leaving. If you preferred that over Santino's heel work, you are crazy.

While has hasn't featured in as many matches, his match lengths have increased by far since he was a heel.

Who cares how long his matches are? I'd rather see a 1 minute Santino title defense as a heel followed by some crazy aftermath than a 2 and a half minute match against he Miz where Santino is just there to make Miz look good.

While he might be messing with Guest Hosts, he's assisting in making them have a big role on the show. While the Guest Host situation isn't going as swimmingly well, Santino's comic relief assists with the GHs to give them a chance to entertaining to the fans.

Santino plays the role of "Entertainment" extremely well in the WWE but his heel promos get more cheers than jeers, which shows they have a face value, if he was legit heel, he would be getting Jericho style boos.

Santino is a comedy heel, his goal was never to get booed like Chris Jericho. It was to entertain the fans, but at the same time, throw in some comments that cause the fans to boo him. It's not the typical heel role, but it is great nonetheless.

His matches were short run but he gets more better time when he's a face and is comic relief for the fans.

His matches are always short, but at least they had a point when he was a heel.

Only a face can provide comic relief for the fans and Santino does that.

This statement is entriely false. Just because Santino is a heel, that doesn't mean that he has to be a boring stick in the mud. There are plenty of things he can do to entertain the fans while still maintaining his heel persona. Here's an example.

[YOUTUBE]BaNpTh1lhls[/YOUTUBE]

Ahh, I missed those days. Back when Santino was relevant and actually fun to watch.

How many times have you laughed at his jokes?

Quite often, especially last summer.

If he was a heel you're booked to hate him but he was loved by the fans because he was funny, that's how he makes it better as a tweener/face

Like I said, just because you're a heel, doesn't mean you have to be boring.

The proverbial ball is now in your proverbial court sir.

 

[Mr. TM]

Phoenix raised a question about this form of editing a post after. I ask GD to finish his post in a new post, giving Phoenix a chance to start opposing your previous post.

 

[Phoenix]

Holding the IC or US Title for a long period of time isn't that hard and just because you hold it for a long time, that doesn't make it significant. Santino's second run was much better.

All it did was show how insignificant and annoying it is to focus on a track record of a run of wins/holding a belt week after week. I was just re-watching some of the honk-a-meter moments I got really annoyed from him constantly saying "The Honky Donk Man was Intercontinental Champion for 64 weeks!" While it's a nice plug for the history of the belt, it just got so damn annoying, it's like going on about Vladamir Koslov's unbeaten streak or Ricky Ortiz being 2-0 in ECW! I think the only thing it did was make William Regal beating him for it so much better to get rid of it because it simply did not work. We didn't focus on each week that John Cena is WWE Champion now do we? We'd get annoyed if he started bring out the Champ-a-Meter and reminding us that how long he's held it.

Santino wasn't exactly the strongest booked wrestler, even when he was the champ. You know that. His win over Umaga was a fluke and he never really dominated as IC Champ. Don't try to make is seem as if Santino was a credible wrestler, because he never really has been.

Because he's been always stuck with having doing promos and jobbing in 30 seconds during his heel run, he hasn't been able to live out to his full potential expect during his first appearance as a face.

Actually here's an example of a recent match on Superstars where he is a credible wrestler, he has a Hogan like effect in this match and it lasts a good 6 minutes compared to his regular matches, not an actual job here and listen to the ovation. Try and find a heel Santino match like this:

[youtube]/v/-Sm3F9VI2j4&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]

First of all, it doesn't say "heel" comedy jobber for life, now does it? He is much less signifcant and jobberish now than he was as a heel, when he was actually winning matches.

Less significant? When the most significant matter on Raw is the Guest Host right now, Santino has been right at the heart of it. He's always appeared with them to give them a good segment for the fans and to add more to what the guest host can do, he gives those with less of a wrestling experience/knowledge something to work with like so:

[YOUTUBE]/v/U-NqYXUmWAU&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]/v/hRTd2Snuva0&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

Oh yeah, the second one was from one of Raw's best rated shows of the year was it not?

[YOUTUBE]/v/tdYNaxOamMA&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

I'm pretty sure you marked out in the LD for this part of Raw which featured none other than a FACE Santino Marella.

He lost against Mickie James, one of the greatest Diva's ever, with a hand tied behind his back. Plus, it was one of the most entertaining matches in recent memory, how is that bad? It is much better and more entertaining than his stupid rivalry with Vickie, in which he was a face.

Despite the hand being tied behind his back for his match with Mickie, he's lost to Beth Phoenix and Maria without any hands tied behind his back and lost to them, while I can easily overlook Beth because she is the strongest of all the current Divas, but losing to Maria who has less credentials than Mickie James? I mean seriously, he needs one hand tied behind his back to lose to a 5 time Women's Champion but to lose without a handicap to a diva who's spent more time backstage and hosting kiss cams is more of a joke.

I think the hogpen match with Vickie is much more entertaining than the Mickie loss because simply put, if it's more entertaining, it goes on the pay per view rather than on free tv and guess what match featured on the pay per view? You've guess right his feud with Vickie Guerrero, showing it to be more significant than facing Mickie James with just one arm handy.

I know, he won a title at the second biggest PPV of the year, how awful.

It was more of win for Beth Phoenix than Santino, he just benefitted from the situation. If his heel run was more significant and his character was more important than Beth Phoenix, he would have got the pin.

The greatest 1.9 seconds of the entire match.

Undertaker's Wrestlemania entrances contain better 1.9 seconds than that did.

Like who? Batista and John Cena? Certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Jerry Lawler for two weeks in a row, a former wrestler turned commentator
Ron Simmons who retired

Both of those were having the focus being on Maria rather than Santino

Maria
Mickie James (don't care about the arm stipulation)
Beth Phoenix

In a good way. Any wrestler who can make me laugh is doing a great job.

And his face run has been doing that as I've witnessed in some of your LD posts.

Who is "we"? I certainly didn't feel the IC Title was being disgraced, if anything, it was made to be more relevant than ever. When Santino held it, the midcard title on Raw meant something. Now, the midcard title on Raw is an afterthought.

Errr...Jericho and Mysterio, Ziggler and Morrison feuding over it? Swagger/Miz/Kofi on Raw? Are you switching off your TV during these segments or forgetting that there are some more credible programmes with the midcard belt than ever? Even more so than what Santino's run did, which didn't benefit the belt one bit!

How was he jobbing if he was winning? Anyway, it ended because there is no way the WWE could handle a 64 week title reign. If Santino would've actually broken HTM's record, he would've just been selfish.

We probably would have stopped watching Raw more likely, or more switched off during his segments. True he may have been winning, but against guys who had nothing on and were awaiting future endeavours like Deuce.

Great match, one of the most entertaining I've ever seen. Just because Santino doesn't win a ton of matches (as a face or a heel) he is fun to watch, especially when he's a heel.

He's been a face ever since the whole Vickie/Santina fiasco. Have you been watching? Where has this face turn led him? Apperaing infrequently on Raw (he was on ever single week during his heel run) and when he does appear, its only during stupid skits with the guest hosts or jobbing to further other wrestlers storylines, not his own. (his match against Miz, bodyslam challenge against Big Show)

His current face run has been more entertaining, especially with the segments he does with Guest Hosts like Bob Barker, Cedric the Entertainer, whilst some have been awful hosts, Santino has made them more bearable than anything! He doesn't appear infrequently, he's actually been appearing each week to put over the Guest Hosts and has been successfully, whilst some of them suck, he makes up for what they lack in entertainment. He's also been featured on Raw and Superstars in

He's not even that funny as a face, he's just pathetic. As a heel, he is one of the most intriguing wrestlers of all the times.

He's been getting alot of cheers and screen time, while his matches may appear on Raw or Superstars, he's getting on the air alot more than some of the other guys on the Raw roster. He's still being used to great needs and remains intriguing, if anything this current face run could give more than what his heel run could never do, have proper matches and work even higher up the card where the midcard belts have more respect and use than when he was the IC Champion.

He obviously wasn't credible, we've been through this already. He relied on fluke wins.

His heel run did indeed rely greatly on them and going over guys that aren't even around or had anything going for them, not even in OCW/FCW.

Indeed, and his comedy was great, especially as a heel. It's much easier to use his comedy against faces. Not only does it allow him to be entertaining, but it puts over the faces as well. If you took a piss break during one second of Santino's latest IC Title run then I truly feel sorry for you.

I can't recall as much because it really wasn't that memorable, mostly it was him saying how boring this angle of trying to last 64 weeks as IC Champ is going to be and it eventually ended so I didn't need to take the piss break.

You'll actually find that comedy works alot better for faces than as heels, I mean Jericho got better with his jokes as a face, as did Cena, Rock, Austin, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, I can go on. But simply put, he had some comedy moments to start with as a face, they tried it as a heel, it got annoying and now it's being worked effectively, especially in his matches as he seems to reflect the charisma in the ring that matches his mic work.

When did he job to Haas? If it was during the costume phase, that doesn't really count. Legit wrestlers like MVP and JBL lost to Haas during this period as well.

A loss is a loss on the records, so any match that has happened will count.

We've already established Santino wasn't and never will be credible, especially not as a face. Did you see Raw this week? Masters (who has been MIA for awhile) destroyed Santino.

Well given the size and stature of Masters, it's not difficult to be set up as dominating, he had the likes of the Masterlock Challenge which put him over as the super strong bulky heel that is tough to beat, the likes of which Vince prefers. He hasn't been MIA as much since he's been wrestling for a good two months now.

You can't honestly say that Santino's IC run was a bad thing. Kofi wasn't doing much with the belt, and Glamerella was a much better and more intriguing storyline. Not only was it the highlight on Santino's career, it was also the highlight of Beth's. I was genuinely excited about watching Raw and Santino every week during this period, he's a mere afterthought now, and so is Beth.

Yet Santino is up and coming once again during this current face run and Beth is only slowly regaining momentum, but you have rightly shown that Santino's heel run with Glamerella had effective messed up the momentum of the two featured in the angle. It started off great but they became an afterthought because of the angle, now they're getting their momentum back because Beth is being booked right and Santino is getting over big time as face, listen to that cheer again in the video I posted at the beginning of this post.

Compared to the reigns directly before and after Santino's (Kofi and Regal) his was by far the best. Jericho/Benoit was in a completely different era where PPVs were brand exclusive and every title mattered.

True and yet it's taken someone like Jericho to put an even better reign and feud out there with Mysterio and Morrison on hand to putting the belt back with some credibility. It's getting alot more PPV coverage than Santino's run and certainly we're getting more memorable reigns that put Santino's to shame. Regal's reign was just the beginning of everything starting to go right with Punk, JBL and Mysterio getting it shortly after and now the belt is alot more credible than it was a year ago. All it did was make Santino's waist look pretty.

Maria would've been just another pretty face without Santino. Because of there realtionship, she was given an actual character and there was reason for us to care about her.

She was already doing fine without Santino, she had a character we all cared about, she worked the crowd great and she was still used fine prior to Santino.

It was Austin's fault the movie flopped, not Santino's.

Actually it was WWE's.

Santino has never had long matches, as a face or a heel. I don't want to keep repeating this.

His face matches have last longer than a heels as I have proven just earlier.

Like I said, PPVs are really crowded nowadays. It is really tough to get on the card, especially with a midcard title. Kofi hasn't been able to do it until HIAC and Morrison/Ziggler didn't make the last PPV. At least Santino was in a PPV match, something that he isn't going to do anytime soon with his current face run.

Actually Kofi and Miz had a match at Breaking Point, the IC belt has featured more on PPV this year than with Santino's reign. Santino only featured in two PPV matches that hand him barely doing anything. This year the IC belt has been in featured in 6 (soon to be 7) pay per view matches, so you can't excuse that it's getting overlooked on pay per view when it clearly hasn't been. Even the tag titles have been featured more than Santino's IC matches on PPV.

Santino is a comedy heel, his goal was never to get booed like Chris Jericho. It was to entertain the fans, but at the same time, throw in some comments that cause the fans to boo him. It's not the typical heel role, but it is great nonetheless.

You're right, which is why it works more effectively as a face and has proven to be successful, I'm glad WWE made the right choice to turn him face to get the best out of him, otherwise he would just be repeatable and dull by now had he remained a heel.

Ahh, I missed those days. Back when Santino was relevant and actually fun to watch.

Just continue to watch Raw and you can see him continue to be relevant as I'm repeating myself again. He puts over the Guest Hosts and is getting booked in better matches than he was as a heel.

Santino is proving to work as a face and it's showing from the way he's getting big ovations from the crowd and getting booked in minor but more decent matches. His current face run is regaining the momentum that he lost at the end of heel days and he looks to be the fresh material each week that Raw needed, given that extra bit where the Guest Hosts lack in.

While his heel run is more memorable he got over first time as a face and he's getting over once again as a face, it shows his entertainment in the ring and backstage is being booked effectively, but more importantly his charisma is being reflected in his match a whole lot better than when he was a heel.

 

[gd]

All it did was show how insignificant and annoying it is to focus on a track record of a run of wins/holding a belt week after week. I was just re-watching some of the honk-a-meter moments I got really annoyed from him constantly saying "The Honky Donk Man was Intercontinental Champion for 64 weeks!" While it's a nice plug for the history of the belt, it just got so damn annoying, it's like going on about Vladamir Koslov's unbeaten streak or Ricky Ortiz being 2-0 in ECW! I think the only thing it did was make William Regal beating him for it so much better to get rid of it because it simply did not work. We didn't focus on each week that John Cena is WWE Champion now do we? We'd get annoyed if he started bring out the Champ-a-Meter and reminding us that how long he's held it.

You can't compare Cena to Santino. Cena will be on TV every week in a major role because he is the top dawg. However, the midcard champ doesn't always get on TV. The Honk-A-Meter and Santino's antics gave us a reason to care about him and the midcard belt.

Because he's been always stuck with having doing promos and jobbing in 30 seconds during his heel run, he hasn't been able to live out to his full potential expect during his first appearance as a face.

Obviously since he was new he's going to made to look strong, but that obviously didn't last. Like I've said time and time againg, its not about how long his matches are. I'd rather see a short match with talking/goofing around after than a long and uneventful match.

Actually here's an example of a recent match on Superstars where he is a credible wrestler, he has a Hogan like effect in this match and it lasts a good 6 minutes compared to his regular matches, not an actual job here and listen to the ovation. Try and find a heel Santino match like this:

[youtube]/v/-Sm3F9VI2j4&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]

lol, you're comparing him to Hogan. Superstars in a show that is all wrestling, of course his match was going to be a little longer. He still lost and it didn't lead anywhere. Show me a match from his recent face run on RAW that makes him look somewhat credible.

Less significant? When the most significant matter on Raw is the Guest Host right now, Santino has been right at the heart of it. He's always appeared with them to give them a good segment for the fans and to add more to what the guest host can do, he gives those with less of a wrestling experience/knowledge something to work with like so:

Being the IC Champ and having actual storylines and feuds is much more significant that having some stupid segments with the guest hosts. You know who else hangs out with the guest hosts? Hornswoggle, Chavo, and Primo. That's who Santino is comparable to at the moment.

[YOUTUBE]/v/U-NqYXUmWAU&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]/v/hRTd2Snuva0&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

Oh yeah, the second one was from one of Raw's best rated shows of the year was it not?

I think that had a lot to do with Shaq and nothing to do with Santino.

[YOUTUBE]/v/tdYNaxOamMA&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

I'm pretty sure you marked out in the LD for this part of Raw which featured none other than a FACE Santino Marella.

Prove it.

Despite the hand being tied behind his back for his match with Mickie, he's lost to Beth Phoenix and Maria without any hands tied behind his back and lost to them, while I can easily overlook Beth because she is the strongest of all the current Divas, but losing to Maria who has less credentials than Mickie James? I mean seriously, he needs one hand tied behind his back to lose to a 5 time Women's Champion but to lose without a handicap to a diva who's spent more time backstage and hosting kiss cams is more of a joke.

If you're a comedy character, better doesn't exactly mean winning matches. It's about how much you entertain the fans. His matches with the Diva's have never failed to produce laughs.

I think the hogpen match with Vickie is much more entertaining than the Mickie loss because simply put, if it's more entertaining, it goes on the pay per view rather than on free tv and guess what match featured on the pay per view? You've guess right his feud with Vickie Guerrero, showing it to be more significant than facing Mickie James with just one arm handy.

The whole Vickie thing and hog pen garbage was awful. Just becaue it is featured more by the WWE, it doesn't mean it's better. We've seen Kane v. Khali on recent PPVs while John Morrison has been nowhere to be found, does that mean a Kane/Khali is better than a Morrison match, I don't think so.

It was more of win for Beth Phoenix than Santino, he just benefitted from the situation. If his heel run was more significant and his character was more important than Beth Phoenix, he would have got the pin.

The whole point of Glamerella was for Beth to be the muscle and Santino to be the funny, it wouldn't have made sense for him to get the pin.

Undertaker's Wrestlemania entrances contain better 1.9 seconds than that did.

Undertaker's entrance is quite awful.

Jerry Lawler for two weeks in a row, a former wrestler turned commentator
Ron Simmons who retired

Lawler is built up as a legit wrestler, he's been competitive against the like of King Booker and Legacy in recent years.

Both of those were having the focus being on Maria rather than Santino

Focus on Maria with the comedic genius of Santino.

Maria

Awesome.

Mickie James (don't care about the arm stipulation)

If your arms tied behind your back, she'd kick your ass.

Beth Phoenix

Awesome make out session after.

And his face run has been doing that as I've witnessed in some of your LD posts.

What LD posts? I'm not usually in there. I still like Santino, don't get me wrong, but I thought he was much more entertaining as a heel than as a face.

Errr...Jericho and Mysterio, Ziggler and Morrison feuding over it?

I said on RAW.

Swagger/Miz/Kofi on Raw? Are you switching off your TV during these segments or forgetting that there are some more credible programmes with the midcard belt than ever?

This is literally Kofi's first feud since he won the belt. Usually, he just has a random title defense or isn't on TV at all.

Even more so than what Santino's run did, which didn't benefit the belt one bit!

Santino was a focal point of the show each and every week during his title run. Before every Raw, the #1 question on everyone's mind was "What will Santino do next?"

We probably would have stopped watching Raw more likely, or more switched off during his segments. True he may have been winning, but against guys who had nothing on and were awaiting future endeavours like Deuce.

I would've watched, the possiblities for such a program would have been limitless. And at least his was actually winning matches, unlike nowadays. Has he even won a singles match since Santina disappered?

His current face run has been more entertaining, especially with the segments he does with Guest Hosts like Bob Barker,

I did like this one.

Cedric the Entertainer,

Awful.

whilst some have been awful hosts, Santino has made them more bearable than anything!

Actually, he's compounded the problem by encouraging them.

He doesn't appear infrequently, he's actually been appearing each week to put over the Guest Hosts and has been successfully, whilst some of them suck, he makes up for what they lack in entertainment.

He does appear infrequently. I remember at least 2 or 3 Raws that were Santino-less, which is a sad thing, but that kind of stuff happens when you don't have any real storylines and only have 2 minutes backstage segments with Guest Hosts instead of actual promo/match segments.

He's also been featured on Raw and Superstars in

In what? Anyway, Superstars doesn't count. No one sees it, it is just for the people who aren't important enough for the main shows.

He's been getting alot of cheers and screen time, while his matches may appear on Raw or Superstars, he's getting on the air alot more than some of the other guys on the Raw roster.

Like who? The Colons? Jamie Noble? Festus? Big accomplishment there.

He's still being used to great needs and remains intriguing, if anything this current face run could give more than what his heel run could never do, have proper matches and work even higher up the card where the midcard belts have more respect and use than when he was the IC Champion.

Could is the operative word there. Has he actual done anything significant as a face, like have proper matches? No. He did have wildly entertaining matches and promos as a heel though. You are speculating that he'd be used well and be successful as a face, while it is already proven that he has been successful as a heel.

His heel run did indeed rely greatly on them and going over guys that aren't even around or had anything going for them, not even in OCW/FCW.

Jimminy Christmas, I never said that he didn't have fluke wins as a heel, but he had them as a face as well. He wasn't credible either way, how many times must I say this?

I can't recall as much because it really wasn't that memorable, mostly it was him saying how boring this angle of trying to last 64 weeks as IC Champ is going to be and it eventually ended so I didn't need to take the piss break.

If you didn't watch it, that's your problem.

You'll actually find that comedy works alot better for faces than as heels, I mean Jericho got better with his jokes as a face, as did Cena, Rock, Austin, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, I can go on. But simply put, he had some comedy moments to start with as a face, they tried it as a heel, it got annoying and now it's being worked effectively, especially in his matches as he seems to reflect the charisma in the ring that matches his mic work.

Obviously it's easier to crack jokes as a face because the crowd is going to like you. You can just say something like "Mr. Ziggles" and the crowd is going to be cracking up. As a heel, it's much harder to use comedy, but when you are able to do it effectively, like Santino or Abe Washington, it is much better and more entertaining, for me anyways.

A loss is a loss on the records, so any match that has happened will count.

FIrst of all, records don't matter at all in wrestling, it's all about how you lose. As a heel, Santino lost in a comedic fashion or in some other strange way that was at least entertaining to watch and led somewhere.

As a face, he's strictly a jobber. What matches has he had in his most recent face run to further any storyline for himself? None would be the answer.

Well given the size and stature of Masters, it's not difficult to be set up as dominating, he had the likes of the Masterlock Challenge which put him over as the super strong bulky heel that is tough to beat, the likes of which Vince prefers. He hasn't been MIA as much since he's been wrestling for a good two months now.

Masters has done a good bit of nothing since returning. He was in the main event once to job to DX, but other than that, he hasn't done anything worth mentioning or caring about, and he destroyed Santino. It wasn't even funny either.

Yet Santino is up and coming once again during this current face run and Beth is only slowly regaining momentum, but you have rightly shown that Santino's heel run with Glamerella had effective messed up the momentum of the two featured in the angle. It started off great but they became an afterthought because of the angle, now they're getting their momentum back because Beth is being booked right and Santino is getting over big time as face, listen to that cheer again in the video I posted at the beginning of this post.

O boy, what are you talking about? Santino isn't a "big time face", are you crazy? He has been involved in 0 angles, storylines, or significant matches since his return. He is getting cheers because of his great work in the past during his second IC Title reign, but that doesn't mean he isn't still a complete and utter jobber.

True and yet it's taken someone like Jericho to put an even better reign and feud out there with Mysterio and Morrison on hand to putting the belt back with some credibility. It's getting alot more PPV coverage than Santino's run and certainly we're getting more memorable reigns that put Santino's to shame. Regal's reign was just the beginning of everything starting to go right with Punk, JBL and Mysterio getting it shortly after and now the belt is alot more credible than it was a year ago. All it did was make Santino's waist look pretty.

I'd prefer Santino's run to most of those other ones. Punk didn't do anything with it really, JBL's reign was abysmal, Mysterio's was pretty good, but he got the benefit with defending it against guys like Jericho and Morrison while Santino was stuck with the likes of guys like an over the hill D'lo Brown and a retired Honky Tonk Man.

She was already doing fine without Santino, she had a character we all cared about, she worked the crowd great and she was still used fine prior to Santino.

She was good without Santino, he propelled her to superstar levels. She isn't with Santino now, how's she doing.

Actually it was WWE's.

If Santino was in it, it would've made a trillion dollars. Not really relevant to the debate, I'm just sayin'.

His face matches have last longer than a heels as I have proven just earlier.

And I have proven that match length doesn't mean shit. Paul Burchill and Shelton Benjamin had a decently long match on ECW yesterday, does that mean they are amazing now? No.

Actually Kofi and Miz had a match at Breaking Point,

Added at the last minute as a filler.

the IC belt has featured more on PPV this year than with Santino's reign. Santino only featured in two PPV matches that hand him barely doing anything. This year the IC belt has been in featured in 6 (soon to be 7) pay per view matches, so you can't excuse that it's getting overlooked on pay per view when it clearly hasn't been. Even the tag titles have been featured more than Santino's IC matches on PPV.

Obviously it's going to be featured more if guys like Mysterio and Jericho are holding it, they are better than Santino (heel or face.) This isn't about how Mysterio is a bigger draw than Santino, it's about how Santino was much more entertaining and relevant as a heel. (edited from face, typo on my part.)

You're right, which is why it works more effectively as a face and has proven to be successful, I'm glad WWE made the right choice to turn him face to get the best out of him, otherwise he would just be repeatable and dull by now had he remained a heel.

The best out of him as a face?!?!? How can you possibly say that. Santino was one of the biggest stars on Raw as a heel, despite not being exactly proficiant in the ring. He was even in a main event match against John Cena on Raw in Toronto. Right now, as a face, he is just there to provide a couple of minutes of generic face comedy, which isn't as funny as his other stuff.

Just continue to watch Raw and you can see him continue to be relevant as I'm repeating myself again. He puts over the Guest Hosts and is getting booked in better matches than he was as a heel.

Already proven this all wrong.

Santino is proving to work as a face and it's showing from the way he's getting big ovations from the crowd and getting booked in minor but more decent matches. His current face run is regaining the momentum that he lost at the end of heel days and he looks to be the fresh material each week that Raw needed, given that extra bit where the Guest Hosts lack in.

Obviously he's getting cheered more if he's a face. His Guest Host stuff is crap, not even comparable to the Honk-A-Meter, and you know it.

While his heel run is more memorable he got over first time as a face

Exactly, his heel run is more memorable, thus better. We may as well end the debate now, you've admitted defeat.

and he's getting over once again as a face,

Not really.

it shows his entertainment in the ring and backstage is being booked effectively,

How is not being involved in one angle being booked effectively?

but more importantly his charisma is being reflected in his match a whole lot better than when he was a heel.

Santino shows charisma all the time, that he does it in match form as a face slightly longer than as a heel means absolutely nothing.

 

[Phoenix]

You can't compare Cena to Santino. Cena will be on TV every week in a major role because he is the top dawg. However, the midcard champ doesn't always get on TV. The Honk-A-Meter and Santino's antics gave us a reason to care about him and the midcard belt.

Actually I can compare Cena to Santino, because much like Santino, his heel run (as a rapper) had some face value, just watch

[YOUTUBE]/v/g62tyVx5csw&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

Cena wasn't always a main feature when he was on the midcard, he had an element of himself that got him popular with his raps. He may have been playing a heel but the fans cheered as you heard with the exception of when he slated Kurt Angle. Compare that to something Santino did when he was a heel:

[YOUTUBE]/v/U_OUtAb8xt8&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

Sorry for posting this video twice but it demonstrates that Santino's face value when he provided the same front as Cena has proven to be more popular because of the humour having a better face value than John Cena who's rapper gimmick provided a more tweener based role for current WWE Champ, an earlier version of what Santino's heel run really was, a tweener, heelish in the ring but face value on the mic...sounds like someone who was big in the WWE, who was he now...

[YOUTUBE]/v/-SH7bnElWyY&hl=en&fs=1&"[/YOUTUBE]

Now this one of his very early promo days and what do you hear? That's right the crowd cheering. Despite him being in a heel, his promo was having a face value. He's the most famous Tweener on the grounds of Austin and these were the guys who made and break the mode for the tweener role. This is what Santino's heel run is, it is actually a tweener role, he relied on promos that were funny because they had the makings of a face, this is why they turned him into a face again because they know Santino wasn't credible as a heel if he's making people laugh.

The Miz, a guy who's playing the midcard is known for being entertaining, but what makes him different to Santino?

[YOUTUBE]/v/Tr71K7lRbg0&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

In a way, The Miz slated Cena much like Santino slated Austin/The Condemned and look at what got more heat out of the two? Oh that's the right The Miz (and he's awesome!) Santino got laughs and yet these two are charismatic as each other. So why isn't Santino drawing the heat like a heel is supposed to? Because they couldn't make him a heel to be funny, he had to be a tweener to be accepted as funny more than anything. Santino is a proven tweener compared to the Miz who is full heel who is entertaining, need anymore proof? Here is Santino in a confrontation with Jericho:

[YOUTUBE]/v/PN61nRaaHHE&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

Now the only other people who can be equally entertaining on the mike at the same time when they're foes would be say The Rock, Austin, Jericho, Edge, HBK, Cena, Christian, Mick Foley, to name a few. Any other time and it's about who can get the most reaction out of the crowd from the cheers and boos, which proves once again that Santino was a tweener because he was not able to draw enough heat as Edge, even in his midcard days and he was an entertaining heel as well!

Obviously since he was new he's going to made to look strong, but that obviously didn't last. Like I've said time and time againg, its not about how long his matches are. I'd rather see a short match with talking/goofing around after than a long and uneventful match.

Then what is the point of watching wrestling? You could get more goofing around from watching Robot Chicken that is more entertaining for short and sweet humour. Wrestling is about the matches first and everything else second.

lol, you're comparing him to Hogan. Superstars in a show that is all wrestling, of course his match was going to be a little longer. He still lost and it didn't lead anywhere. Show me a match from his recent face run on RAW that makes him look somewhat credible.

Well given the tag match, albeit it short and despite being on the losing end, he made a great effort when it was really a handicap match given his partner was Hornswoggle

[YOUTUBE]/v/sUOiiN0P0TU&hl=en&fs=1&[/YOUTUBE]

If you can even find a match of him as a heel where his match work was credible, you won't be able to you, if you enjoyed your quick amount of goofing around, you won't be able to find anything of credible noting for Santino's matches as a heel.

Being the IC Champ and having actual storylines and feuds is much more significant that having some stupid segments with the guest hosts. You know who else hangs out with the guest hosts? Hornswoggle, Chavo, and Primo. That's who Santino is comparable to at the moment.

Actually you have Cena, Triple H, Jericho, Big Show, HBK, Orton, Legacy, out of others who end up hanging around with the Guest Hosts, there's always some form of interaction with the Main Event stars and Santino even works in scenes for entertainment with them too. Has your comparisons of Hornswoggle, Chavo or Primo even shared the same scene with the Guest Host and a Main Event member? Nope, only Santino has out your list there.

Prove it. What LD posts? I'm not usually in there.

I did checked back, my apologies there, I thought you actively took part in the LD. But nonetheless marking out still did happen on a large scale in them.

If you're a comedy character, better doesn't exactly mean winning matches. It's about how much you entertain the fans. His matches with the Diva's have never failed to produce laughs.

It was more the segments outside the matches that provided laughs and as proven in the Tag Match in this post and the match with Masters on Superstars, he managed to get great laughs and cheers from the crowd. Somewhat a better reaction from the stuff he did with the Divas, at least they laughed rather than people question why he's booked this way.

The whole Vickie thing and hog pen garbage was awful. Just becaue it is featured more by the WWE, it doesn't mean it's better. We've seen Kane v. Khali on recent PPVs while John Morrison has been nowhere to be found, does that mean a Kane/Khali is better than a Morrison match, I don't think so.

Even so, if it's on the PPV, it means it has Vince McMahon's seal of approval that it's worth watching. With the Morrison issue, that was Mysterio's fault and at the same time they didn't have a programme for him until now, it's better to put something on with a background rather than what was put together at the last minute because the original plan got messed up because of a suspension. But as I said, if it's on the PPV, it's because Vince knows it's working on the tv screens, which clearly shows support for Santino's IC Title run, oh wait!

The whole point of Glamerella was for Beth to be the muscle and Santino to be the funny, it wouldn't have made sense for him to get the pin.

Then clearly he didn't need the IC Belt for it to happen then!

Undertaker's entrance is quite awful.

I don't know, it's entertaining at some part but do I put that to the nostalgia or because it really gets me hyped up for a match like an entrance should.

Lawler is built up as a legit wrestler, he's been competitive against the like of King Booker and Legacy in recent years.

And still got squashed by them, unlike the tweener Santino.

Awesome make out session after.

Actually that happened after Santino lost to D'Lo Brown not the match he and Beth had.

I still like Santino, don't get me wrong, but I thought he was much more entertaining as a heel than as a face.

Did you not watch the last two matches he had? They were rather entertaining to watch.

I said on RAW. This is literally Kofi's first feud since he won the belt. Usually, he just has a random title defense or isn't on TV at all.

Well the IC Belt was getting some momentum when it landed around the waists of Punk, JBL and Mysterio before it switched to Smackdown, the Jericho and Mysterio feud was picking up from the momentum it was getting from the feuds that were building over it.

Santino was a focal point of the show each and every week during his title run. Before every Raw, the #1 question on everyone's mind was "What will Santino do next?"

They still do today. With the different guest hosts and even in his matches, they don't know what to expect from him, it's part of him no matter which alignment he has.

I would've watched, the possiblities for such a program would have been limitless. And at least his was actually winning matches, unlike nowadays. Has he even won a singles match since Santina disappered?

Outside of the Santina role, Santino has beaten Chavo Guerrero twice (singles match and an intergender tag match with Mickie James on his team). Before you even think of bringing in Hornswoggle when relating to Chavo, this was a match that didn't involve Cow dressings, water pistols or lame methods to put Santino over like they do with Hornie.

He does appear infrequently. I remember at least 2 or 3 Raws that were Santino-less, which is a sad thing, but that kind of stuff happens when you don't have any real storylines and only have 2 minutes backstage segments with Guest Hosts instead of actual promo/match segments.

He still gets more screen time than half the roster. Regardless of having a major angle at this time, his programme has been to put over the Guest Hosts and hasn't failed to do so since the concept kicked in. We've seen similar with DX when they didn't wrestle for a whole month before finally getting into the ring at Summerslam.

In what? Anyway, Superstars doesn't count. No one sees it, it is just for the people who aren't important enough for the main shows.

Sorry, missed out the important words matches and segments

Like who? The Colons? Jamie Noble? Festus? Big accomplishment there.

Any accomplishment is better than none in the WWE, if you're on the WWE screens you're doing something right. Much like Santino is at the moment.

Could is the operative word there. Has he actual done anything significant as a face, like have proper matches? No. He did have wildly entertaining matches and promos as a heel though. You are speculating that he'd be used well and be successful as a face, while it is already proven that he has been successful as a heel.

You're having your cake and eating it here with the wildly entertaining matches as a heel when his face matches have actually been more entertaining and thorough than his heel matches. As I said, his match lengths have improved as a face meaning he has more of a proper match than what his heel run provided, no matter how long or short they are of if he won or lost. He still provides better entertainment and actually has matches rather than a 30 second squash which is easier to call his heel matches.

Jimminy Christmas, I never said that he didn't have fluke wins as a heel, but he had them as a face as well. He wasn't credible either way, how many times must I say this?

As many times as I keep showing them.

If you didn't watch it, that's your problem.

Much like what you say about his matches as a face not being as entertaining as his heel matches or saying if matches on Superstars count or not.

Obviously it's easier to crack jokes as a face because the crowd is going to like you. You can just say something like "Mr. Ziggles" and the crowd is going to be cracking up. As a heel, it's much harder to use comedy, but when you are able to do it effectively, like Santino or Abe Washington, it is much better and more entertaining, for me anyways.

Abe's comedy is hit and miss really, he actually gets booed more from the stuff he says and does than cheered of late. And as said and proven earlier, Santino's never really been a heel, he's been a tweener.

FIrst of all, records don't matter at all in wrestling, it's all about how you lose. As a heel, Santino lost in a comedic fashion or in some other strange way that was at least entertaining to watch and led somewhere.

As a face, he's strictly a jobber. What matches has he had in his most recent face run to further any storyline for himself? None would be the answer.

Actually if you look closely he has been slowly building a feud with Chavo and Masters, he's been facing them for a while so there is purpose behind his current matches, otherwise he simply would not be put in a match. Even so he's playing his current role as backstage comedian well, everyone has to go through it sometimes, even DX. He's far more of a jobber as a heel than as a face, he's certainly had more wins than when he did as IC Champ for the second time or even in the whole of 2008.

O boy, what are you talking about? Santino isn't a "big time face", are you crazy? He has been involved in 0 angles, storylines, or significant matches since his return. He is getting cheers because of his great work in the past during his second IC Title reign.

Actually it's because he did something right. The only reason his Second IC run got some success was because of his original face run had a nice run of build up with his promo work, he was getting support within a month of his arrival because of the way he was on the mic prior to turning heel, or correction again, tweener!

I'd prefer Santino's run to most of those other ones. Punk didn't do anything with it really, JBL's reign was abysmal, Mysterio's was pretty good, but he got the benefit with defending it against guys like Jericho and Morrison while Santino was stuck with the likes of guys like an over the hill D'lo Brown and a retired Honky Tonk Man.

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there now. You basically said Santino's run was more preferable than the ones that followed since? What have you been watching? Some of the most recent IC Title programmes this year have involved great chemistry and a lot of praise where most have been called MOTW and some staking claims for MOTY.

If Santino was stuck with D'Lo and Honky Tonk, then clearly he's not a credible champion because it brings the belt down another level from what it should be, might as well have put it on Hardcore 24/7 rules because that's how much of a joke that run was, regardless of whether he was stuck with over the hill guys. At least the IC Title is now seeing much better days than Santino's second run, it got better the moment Regal won it in 30 seconds and Santino never got a second chance for it, best day for that belt and it's been on the up ever since!

She was good without Santino, he propelled her to superstar levels. She isn't with Santino now, how's she doing.

She's still maintaining her level with Dolph Ziggler. She was more popular prior to Santino, but even more so, her Playboy feature got her more over than what Santino did. Hell that got Ashley on a high rolling status but yet Maria has gone on to become an actually wrestler as well!

And I have proven that match length doesn't mean shit. Paul Burchill and Shelton Benjamin had a decently long match on ECW yesterday, does that mean they are amazing now? No.

If the match was entertaining and decent as you said, then they did their jobs otherwise they wouldn't have had the length on their side.

Obviously it's going to be featured more if guys like Mysterio and Jericho are holding it, they are better than Santino (heel or face.) This isn't about how Mysterio is a bigger draw than Santino, it's about how Santino was much more entertaining and relevant as a face.

Glad you agree with me.

The best out of him as a face?!?!? How can you possibly say that. Santino was one of the biggest stars on Raw as a heel, despite not being exactly proficiant in the ring. He was even in a main event match against John Cena on Raw in Toronto.

It was more about Trish Stratus against Beth Phoenix more than anything, he was just tagging along as he always did with Beth. Did he actually even do anything in that match?

Right now, as a face, he is just there to provide a couple of minutes of generic face comedy, which isn't as funny as his other stuff.

Sounds like his run as a tweener and a face are on par then, his current work has been much more appealing to myself and crowd. At least the IC Title isn't being brought down by Santino holding onto it while guys over the hill are getting a small past when he should be feuding with the actual midcard!

Obviously he's getting cheered more if he's a face. His Guest Host stuff is crap, not even comparable to the Honk-A-Meter, and you know it.

You're right, because the current work is original and better. He's able to adapt to each Guest Host week in week out which is a lot more entertaining than repeating his speech of how many weeks he has to go, it makes Sesame Street look more entertaining than his promos during that IC Belt run. Like you said earlier, because of the different GHs, people ask "What will Santino do next?" It provides a lot more than "Santino is up to Week 3, joy!" His Honk-a-meter was a bad joke that kept getting tiresome as each week went by, it's why they pulled the plug on it. At least Santino keeps variety with each Guest Host, and you know that!

Exactly, his heel run is more memorable, thus better. We may as well end the debate now, you've admitted defeat.

I haven't admitted defeat, you've made mention of his face run being affective earlier. While it is easier to be more mindful of what Santino has done as a heel (tweener) it doesn't change the fact that his face run has made him who he is and is rebuilding from the side effect. He never was a heel to begin with, it's only memorable because he was giving face style promos ergo a tweener!

Santino shows charisma all the time, that he does it in match form as a face slightly longer than as a heel means absolutely nothing.

Actually it does because the more you see entertainment and reaction from the crowd from both your promos and matches, you get more screen time and as said, he's got more from being a face and he's getting more matches again than job squashings he received as a heel. Santino has had to rebuild momentum from the brick wall his tweener run did to him, his promo work saved him and now he's fixing it over into his matches so we can take him more seriously as a wrestler and competitor. His embarrassment of the IC belt is long gone and now Santino is on the rise again, this is why he got up on the roster and rose up the ranks the first time because his face appeal was a lot better than his heel work, which is why Santino never became a heel, he was a tweener and they decided it wasn't working so they gave him full face control which is getting his credibility back and I look forward to seeing what more he gives us in the upcoming weeks. At least I don't have to be reminded of what "streak" he's going to beat next week in week out.

 

[Phoenix]

In Summary

In the history of Santino Marella, we have seen him portray himself in the light of a face, the alignment and backing that got him up and running, but also more importantly, got him over. In comparison, his role as a "heel" was more of a tweener role if anything, the best he did that was heelish was spill Cola over Jerry Lawler and throw insults at anyone that is face or heel wherever it's possible.

The reason Santino is over is because of his promo and backstage work which makes the fans laugh, that is not the purpose of a wrestling heel unless they are actually a tweener because they don't interact with the fans as much, they're meant to spoil the party, not make it. In the many examples that myself and my counterpart have shown, Santino is a proven comedian that provides entertainment which gives him his face value throughout his career. We've seen it from guys like Cena, The Rock, Edge, Eddie Guerrero, HBK and even Triple H and we see it in Santino.

Furthermore, his momentum was lost as a result of his "heel" run but he's been getting more programming (since turning face) and is starting to show his wrestling credentials a lot better than we saw in the 30 seconds he had to be squashed by D'Lo Brown on a regular basis. Santino as a face gives you a more complete wrestler with charisma in and out of the ring, Santino as a "heel" gave you a joke of a competitor with nothing but jobbing to offer and also brought down the prestige of the Intercontinental Title which is only getting back from that dark period thanks to Jericho, Mysterio and those that have followed. With the way Raw is, in comparison to last year, the ratings are better because of the Guest Hosts that Santino is actively involved with them, putting them over, compared to the low ratings they had when he was IC Champion.

In the end, the best we have seen Santino is as a face or giving his face valued promos in his tweener role, he got over because of these and is getting over and more momentum again of late because his latest run. This is why Santino Marella as a face is so much better than a heel, if we could even call him that!

 

[gd]

I'm not going to respond to your whole post, don't have the time and a lot of it is just irrelevant tangents that we've veered off on. Here are 10 points I want to make about this debate and why Santino is better as a heel.

1. Santino credible as a face or a heel. You have shown some videos where Santino loses 5 minute matches against an undercarder in Chris Masters trying to prove that he is a more credible wrestler as a face and than he is as a heel. The truth of the matter is, Santino has never been and never will be a credible wrestler. He is always entertaining in the ring, but never especially good. This is true for both faces and heels.

Here's a match where Santino is merely squashed.

[YOUTUBE]6lghbKF9ioA[/YOUTUBE]

2. Santino is better when he is more entertaining. Building off the last point. Even if Santino may have had matches that were a few minutes longer as a face, that doesn't really matter. It isn't helping his crediblity and likely hurt his entertainment value. This debate is about when Santino is better, which is as a heel because he is much more entertaining.

Here's some Honk-A-Meter for you, tell me he isn't great.

[YOUTUBE]ZcPyzfD2hLY[/YOUTUBE]

3. Santino's only been a face for a few months of his career. You mentioned something about Vince's approval earlier, which doesn't really matter. But if you want to use that argument, its obvious that Vince approves of Santino much more as a heel than as a face considering the time he's spent under each allignment.

4. Santino's guest host segments have sucked. They don't get the guest hosts over, they already are or they aren't. They are just stupid, a waste of time, and bad comedy. They are awful compared to all of the other great things we saw during Santino's heel run.

What guest host segment is anywhere near as good as this one?

[YOUTUBE]tOmyCkTFA4A[/YOUTUBE]

5. The Santino-Fan-A-Club One of the most popular threads in the history of this forum. Everyone was involved in it and I mean everyone. It was just another example and how excited everyone was over Santino's IC Title run and how entertaining and incredible he was. What has happened to it now? Ever since Santino's face turn, it has died, just as Santino's career is.

6. He helped Beth's be interesting. Before her relationship with Santino, Beth Phoenix was just another generic, monster heel diva. We'd seen many like her before and would likely see many again. However, once Glamerella was formed, her career took off. Beth showed some decent skill on the mic and her in ring skills were highlighted as well. She is now Santino-less, and virtually irrelevant.

Don't you miss the good ole' days?

[YOUTUBE]9bJ6klSRy6I[/YOUTUBE]

7. He isn't in any storylines Ever since the Santina stuff ended, Santino hasn't really done anything. Apart from a few stupid guest host things, he's been pretty much a jobber for other peoples purposes. You mentioned him being in a program with Master/Chavo/Swoggle. First of all, that is still way up in the air, we only saw what may be an inkling of that last week. Secondly, if it took him this long to get a storyline, that is a problem. Thridly, it's a storyline with Chris Masters, Chavo Guerrero, and Hornswoggle, a far fall from his run as IC Champ, when he was actually exciting and relevant.

8. He's infrequently on TV Santino in his current form has been MIA for Raw every once and awhile. He may have appeared on Superstars a few times when he missed Raw, but that can hardly be considered a show. When Santino was a heel and IC Champ, it was a given that he'd be on Raw in some sort of capacity that week, usually a major way. He played an integral part in the show. Now, he's merely an accessory.

9. Heels don't have to get heat to be good. Above you infered that since Santino didn't get major, Jericho-like heat, he wasn't good as a heel. That is entirely not true. Ther are many different versions of heels, narcissitic, monster, cowardly, comedy, foreign. Santino happened to be a comedy heel, and a damn good one at that. His goal was never to get major heat, it was to entertain while still being the bad guy. Why would not getting major heat make him a failure if it wasn't his goal?

Santino is awesome. Just watch this video and bask in Santino's glory. Also, notice how many of these moments happened with him as a heel opposed to as a face.

[YOUTUBE]rnlPNMt8uHk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Mr. TM]

So this is all you guys had for this? Come on, it is Santino Marella! I would have expected more.

Punctuality: Neither of you guys were late, This point is null and void.

Clarity: I feel as though Phoenix had the better writing skills in this. His posts were clean and easy to read. He gets the points.

Emotionality: GD. It was by far.

Information: Really close here, I feel as though you did not capture the TRUE greatness of Santino, you both did alright. But this isn't Hulk Hogan or some shit, this is the greatest wrestler ever, so none of you get any points. Well that is a lie, GD does.

Persuasion: But he was not able to persuade me at all. I feel as though Phoenix thinks he had the harder side, but that is debatable, and look at that, you did debate it. I do think however that Phoenix was able to line up his posts better, and if he would have responded he would have persuaded me even more. I feel as though GD's breaking down of Phoenix point by point hurt him more than anything.

Tm rates this Phoenix 2, GD 2

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Both had some very clear posts. They went head to head the entire way, and neither was clearer than the other.

Point: Split

Punctuality: What TM said.

Point: Split

Informative: Both brought a lot of good points, and both backed their points up well. I feel Phoenix used his points better though.

Point: Phoenix

Emotionality: GD I think usually gets this point. Not difficult to see why.

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: This was a tough one to decide. Phoenix had a little bit more of a challenge, only due to Santino being a heel for more time than he has a face. But both argued well. However, I think that Phoenix gets this one. He utilized his points well, and backed them up. GD just kind of attacked each of Phoenix's points, instead of adding to his argument while refuting his points.

Point: Phoenix

CH David scores this Phoenix 3, General Disarray 2.

 

[Miko]

What the fuck? The Generals been banned?

Clarity: Pheonix's posts were better organised and easier to read through

Point: Pheonix

Punctuality: Banana split

Point: Split

Informative: I feel that you both researched alot here and it wouldnt be fair to give just one of you the points

Point: Split

Emotionality: Yeah this point to the General

Point: General Disarray

Persuasion: I couldnt see a clear victor here, so I am splitting the point again

Point: Split

I score this fucker

General Disarray - 2.5
Phoenix - 2.5

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - GD's opening argument was short and sweet. Your opening argument was good as well, Phoenix, but you lose this point at the margin.

Point: GD

Punctuality - Read TM's post. I split points, however.

Point: Split

Informative - Phoenix brought in a ton of information. I don't know how anybody could compete with all of that.

Point: Phoenix

Emotionality - I think GD may be in love with Santino Marella.

Point: GD

Persuasion - This is a tough one here, man. Phoenix had the harder task, but he really convinced me that Santino Marella has some merit as a face. On the other hand, if a university offered PhDs in Santino Marella Studies, then GD should be awarded one on the spot.

Point: Split

tdigle's Score

Phoenix - 2
GD - 3