Week 4: ztwhite -versus- fromthesouth

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

    Mar 16, 2007
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    Would Chris Benoit be in the Hall of Fame before the murders?

    fromthesouth is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

    This round ends +2 hours after Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
  2. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

    Mar 18, 2008
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    Chris Benoit is a very popular wrestler with the IWC. His talents in the ring are unquestionable. His history is indisputable. He was a great in ring talent. He could even be viewed as a revolutionary in the way that he helped bring out today's more "realistic" wrestling. His accomplishment merit consideration, and induction, into the Hall of Fame.

    I just want to start by stating the Hall of Fame is for the all time greats, and unlike sports, wrestling doesn't have stats to quantify greatness. All we have to look at are title reigns, which are a product of drawing power and performance. Benoit held 16 titles in WCW and WWE. Chris Benoit, while great in the ring, and not the best in promos, was still able to get quite a following. His intensity was endearing, and allowed for character flexibility. He was either the underdog face who wouldn't quit, or the sadistic heel who loved to punish his opponents.

    Chris Benoit has some memorable wins in his career. He won the WCW Title in both WCW and WWE, joining only Booker T and Goldberg in doing so. Even Ric Flair, who is the most famous, and in fact the personification of "The Big Gold Belt" did not accomplish this feat in his 16 world title reigns. The most notable of these reigns was in 2004, when he sumbitted HHH for the world title. HHH, who on this forum is notorious for holding people down, not only did the job, but tapped for Benoit. I think this is a ringing endorsement for Benoit's induction. HHH (with Austin) also jobbed for Benoit (and Jericho) to exchange the tag titles. HHH was injured in this match, and still did everything he could to make Benoit and Jericho look good. With all of HHH's history of not putting people over, wouldn't his two times of doing so for Benoit be an announcement of his greatness?

    Secondly, we will revisit his revolutionary status. His mat based, submission style of wrestling is the norm today. MMA styles have taken over wrestling. There is the CM Punk school of kicks, and the Benoit school of jujitsu. His crossface is still used today as an homage to his skill by HBK and HHH. He had enough showman in him to get the crowd behind him. He used leverage and quickness instead of strikes to get the work done as well. His style was never more evident than on an episode of Smackdown! when he put Austin in ten consecutive German suplexes. While he lost that match, it was hailed as the free TV match of the year, and was truly a thirty minute classic. His ability to work with anyone was also revolutionary. After years of bad style clashes, the WWE found some guys, in Jericho, Benoit, Milenko, Eddie, and Saturn, who could work with anyone. For years, we had to speculate on what matchups would be like if competitors styles could put on a good match. Arn Anderson and Hulk Hogan could never fight because Hogan would look bad. Warrior could never face someone like Flair because it would be ugly. However, these Radicalz brought something new to the table, adaptability.

    Benoit bridged the gap between generations of stars. With wrestling in transition, Benoit played a major role in keeping the business together. He won his first world title from Sid, and lost his last to Randy Orton. His career was based on overcoming the odds, and time and again, as he rose the ranks, the crowd got behind him and pushed him higher and higher. This was all pretty good for a guy with limited promo skills. He could show his intensity well, but that was it. Everything he did to get over was based on wrestling skill. Hogan couldn't have done that. His abilities manifested themselves biggest in the biggest matches.
  3. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

    Jan 9, 2009
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    For the record, this is the most ludicrous question that could have been asked in our debator's league. It's like asking a juror to try a murder case after allowing them to watch tv and read every newspaper in the country for a month. There's no possible way you can argue Benoit's exclusion from the Hall of Fame without acknowledging the tragedy, because it did happen and any wrestling fan (and most non-wrestling fans) know about it. With that being said, I obviously drew the short straw on this one, so I'll try my best :)

    There are several other more deserving names who should be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame before Chris Benoit. Names like The Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man Randy Savage, Jake The Snake Roberts, Lex Luger and Arn Anderson.

    For all technical accounts, Benoit only held the heavyweight championship once, and he only received the title because of the story both he and Eddie Guerrero generated by winning the straps in the same night at Wrestlemania XX. The other time he won a heavyweight championship, while in WCW, he relinquished the belt the very next night so he could jump ship to the WWF / WWE.

    Sure, he held the US Championship 5 times, but guys like Steve McMichael, Gen. Rection, David Flair and Orlando Jordan also held the belt at one time or another. In the 1990's, it was vacated more times than wrestling fans were able to keep track of, and until recently, the belt really had no credibilty (if it even has any now).

    Benoit was known more for his friendship with guys like Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio. While is in ring was outstanding, wrestling fans really don't take much notice in a guys technical abilities anymore, it's all about the high spots and the shock and awe factor these days. Benoit didn't really provide too many of those moments. He was a great in ring competitor when it comes to technical wrestling, but he wasn't on the same level with guys like Brett Hart, Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero or Kurt Angle.

    As for his finisher, lets be honest, it's a stupid move. Seriously, can't the guy who finds himself in the Crippler Crossface simply remove his arm from in between the guys legs and fight out of it ??It's nothing more than a poor mans Camel Clutch in my opinion. As for his flying headbutt - he often times did more damage to himself than he did to his opponent.

    Benoit was better known as a tag team wrestler, combining with guys like Edge, Chris Jericho and Perry Saturn to win tag titles in boh WCW and WWF / WWE. But even combining with two of the all time greats in Edge and Jericho doesn't help make a claim for Benoit inclusion into wrestling's hallowed halls.

    Benoit was a marginal personality in an entertainment business. He was terrible on the mic and hardly ever tried to further his status in the industry with promo work. Today's product and even the product of yesteryears is largely supported by a superstars benefit to the industry with his mic skills. Without mic work, legends like Hogan, Flair, Austin and The Rock would not have been built.

    As someone who truly appreciates mat wrestling and actual wrestling skill, Chris Benoit IS a Hall of Famer in my book. But based on the overall consensus of all wrestling fans around the world, and more importantly the wrestling fans who have made the WW/F / WWE what it is today, Chris Benoit IS NOT a Hall of Famer.
    FromTheSouth likes this.
  4. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

    Mar 18, 2008
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    I disagree. It's the same question people can ask of Pete Rose. The Pete Rose debate has been raging for 20 years. People argue that OJ Simpson should be removed from the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

    Yes, there are. The question, however, wasn't, "Should Chris Benoit be the next person inducted into the Hall of Fame." We are simply trying to determine if he is deserving. Let's compare him to the people on your list.

    2IC Title runs, and one WWF Championship. I know that title runs are watered down now, but Benoit more than doubles him in both categories. Plus, Warrior never won a tag title. Furthermore, Warrior has a two year run as a high profile competitor. Benoit was at the top of the business for seven years. He held titles and was in the mix for more his entire career.

    This is a travesty, and it is over a personal vendetta. I would think that most wrestling fans just assume he is in already.

    Jake was a shit wrestler. His matches were terrible, and he was memorable for his snake like Koko B. Ware was for his bird. Speaking of Ware....he's in. Do you still not think Benoit belongs? Jake is more famous today for his addictions and substance abuse than his wrestling. I don't think Jake deserves to be in, but Benoit does. And, later, you say Benoit shouldn't be inducted because he has a weak finisher. What about Jake? You're going to let him in with a DDT?

    Seriously? No one is more overrated that Luger.

    I am shocked that he isn't in already. Once again though, similar style, and Benoit had a higher profile. Arn was a Horseman in their prime, but he was a lackey. Benoit was a star, with a higher profile.

    Man, I hated saying something bad about Arn.

    He is recognized by all publications as a two time world champ.

    That's not true. He and Eddie winning together made the story better, but Benoit won the title because he was the best perfomer in the business for a two year period leading up to that. He put on match of the night at PPV after PPV and built up a following based solely on his in ring ability. He is the mat wrestling equivalent of Jeff Hardy. Speaking of Jeff Hardy, Benoit was just as exciting as he or Edge was in the first TLC match. People forget that the Chrises were in that match, but Benoit and Jericho were the champs going in, and Benoit had an amazing night that night as well.

    And he started the Radicalz, which, as I have already stated, had enough versatility for any one of them to fit into any spot on the card. All four of those men changed wrestling, by bringing it back down to the mat. All of the realistic MMA styles that we see today can be brought back to Chris Benoit.

    David Arquette held the Big Gold Belt. Does this make Ric Flair not worthy of his Hall of Fame Status. The belt has as much prestige on it as the guy that holds it. Some guys bring instant prestige to a belt, others build it through great matches. Benoit did both during his career.

    But is attacking the credibility of the belt really attacking the credibility of Benoit? If this belt had no credibility for part of a decade, it certainly did when Benoit held it. Benoit brought instant credibility to any belt he held.

    Known more for that than what? His wrestling? I disagree.

    Which makes Benoit all the more remarkable. Get on Youtube and listen to the pops he drew. That was all for ability. He wasn't playing DX pranks or giving Rock promos to get over. He did it by rolling German suplexes and diving for headbutts, and locking in submissions, and being intense.

    Not really. Jeff Hardy has done less of that since he became a main eventer. CM Punk is a mat wrestler with one springboard move. Cena has one guillotine leg drop that he pulls out once a month. HHH can't find the top rope. The Undertaker has been doing his Old School move for 20 years, and that's it. Kurt Angle moonsaults once a year. Mick Foley can't jump over a business card. Sting doesn't fly. Randy Orton doesn't hit high spots. John Morrison has some flashy offense, but is he even a main eventer yet?
    These are the main eventers in wrestling today. Jeff Hardy flies a little, but beyond that, the American main event scene is full of strikers and mat technicians. Benoit would fit right in today.

    The diving headbutt was always cool looking. And as far as shock, I remember his giving Stone Cold ten straight German suplexes. That was a shocking and awesome moment.

    Besides Angle, he was a better mat technician than all of those guys. He was as good as Angle. Did you see their matches? Benoit kept up with an Olympic gold medalist on the mat. Everyone from Stampede Wrestling could go on the mat, because if you couldn't, you never got mat time. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Benoit is largely held in esteem for his mat skills, and questioning them seems to be a lone wold crusade.

    But Jake should be in for his DDT? And if that move was so shitty, I doubt HBK and HHH would use it today to pay homage to Benoit's talent.

    Medically? Kayfabe wise, that isn't true.

    Not true. He was better know as a singles wrestler who fit well in thrown together tag teams.
    No, but Benoit's performance does merit his inclusion. Have you seen the Jericho/Benoit vs. HHH/SCSA tag title match? I promise you it is one of the top ten matches in the history of Raw. Thirty minutes with countless false finishes, the right team going over, and a title change as they went off the air. In that match, SCSA and HHH put two guys into the main event scene, where one still is and the other would be. The SCSA/Benoit match would also make most top 10's in SD! history. I have seen at least 90% of the episodes of each one of those shows, and there has to be a reason that those two matches from 2000 and 2001 stick in my head so vividly. Benoit was capable of making anyone look good. He got the seal of approval from HHH and Austin. He main evented WM XX vs. HHH and got the win. Five years later, HHH stood over Orton to finish the show. Remember the images. At the landmark events, HHH jobbed at the peak of his career for Benoit and didn't in the twilight of his career for Orton. Without homeruns and batting average to quantify his talents, these are the moments we use to judge someone's "inductability."

    Marginal personalities don't win the main event at Wrestlemania, especially a landmark number like twenty.

    Once again, this is what makes him hall of fame worthy. Who else is good enough in the ring to get that following without the mic? And he did the job with the stick. He didn't hurt himself.

    True. See above.

    This is a case where we cannot ask wrestling fans. There is too much extra curricular. Within the bounds of the question posed, Benoit is a Hall of Famer. His title history, following, and ability are all top flight. His performance was always best on the biggest stage.
  5. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

    Jan 9, 2009
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    True. And the people that argue those topics have been exposed to prejudice, bias and the media for 20 years. It's kind of hard to form an unbiased opinion when all that criticism is invloved.

    I wasn't trying to make a point about Benoit being "the next" guy inducted. It was simply to show that there are a lot more past superstars who I feel should be considered well before Benoit's name comes up.

    I won't address your positive or negative feelings towards my aforementioned names because that's not what this debate is intended to be about.

    I didn't say that he wasn't - but his first "reign" was for one day. Can you really call that a title reign regardless of his reason for vacating the title ?

    Says who ? Were you in creative meetings or in on backstage discussions ? My theory is certainly plausible, but to blatantly say "that's not true" is absurd without definitive proof.

    The reason why people forget that the Chris' were in those TLC matches is because the other guys' stars shined much brighter. That helps to emphasize my point that Benoit was always in the storyline mix, but he never put on the match of night at PPV after PPV.

    He contributed to the Radicalz, he didn't start them. The majority of wrestling fans recognize Eddie Guerrero as the founder of the Radicalz considering he was the mouthpiece for the group. Benoit was simply a tool in the group, much the same as Perry Saturn or Dean Malenko.

    And every semi knowledgable wrestling fans knows how big of a joke Arquette holding the World Championship was. WCW was on its last leg and was being run by a bunch of bumbling morons - Bischoff's words, not mine.

    Absolutely. You claim Benoit should be a Hall of Famer based on his title reigns and I claim his title reigns play no role in his HOF eligibility. By the time Benoit was being given the US Championship, titles had become hot potatos in wrestling. They were / are used to instantly boost the wrestler in the eyes of the fans, but holding a title means absolutely nothing.

    I don't. When he passed, the Raw tribute show was used to exemplify what kind of person and what kind of friend he was backstage. While there was obviously some mention of his in ring work, his life and off screen character was heavily discussed.

    I agree. As I said before, I appreciate mat wrestling and the technical side, but a lot of wrestling fans would much rather see the high flying, spot monkey types. In this day and age of wrestling, I would say that the high flyers are more inclined to be inducted into the HOF then mat wrestlers, which is why I believe that Benoit should not be included in that class of future enshrinees.

    Didn't Hardy and Punk just have a TLC match ? I guess the found a way to mat wrestle between the steel and wood. Cena is fast paced and a power wrestler - definitely no mat technician. HHH and Taker formed their styles back when mat wrestling was still appreciated, plus those two are definitely where they are based on their tremendous mic and promo work (Taker for his vignettes and persona).

    I remember it too, because Wikipedia says it happened. Stop reading the online encyclopedia and form an argument that isn't based solely on the internet's version of Encyclopedia Brittanica.

    To say that Benoit is / was beter than Bret Hart is sacriligious. Hart was without a doubt the greatest technical wrestler of my time.

    I agree that everyone from Stampede Wrestling was able to perform at a high level on the mat, which makes me beg the question - what makes Benoit so special if everyone could do it ?

    They pay homage because Benoit is no longer with us, not because it's such a spectacular wrestling hold. If it was so great, why weren't all the guys doing it when he was alive ? Everyone used a DDT or a Powerbomb, they just came up with a different gimmick name for the move.

    Opinions are like the holes in our backsides - we all have one. I say he was a much better tag wrestler, you say he was a better singles competitor. Neither of us could logically prove our opinion and convince the other, so I agre to disagree on this one.

    That's funny - you just claimed Benoit was a better singles competitor, but then use a tag match to demonstrate his greatness.

    Agreed - which is why I say that without the Eddie Guerrero title win at the same Wrestlemania XX, Benoit's would never have happened.

    I agree he had a great following, but so do a lot of guys who will never sniff the HOF. Just because you're a fan favorite doesn't make you a future HOF'er.

    I believe wrestling fans should be allowed to vote on who gets inducted. There is a ballot process in every major sport, where writers, alumni, veterans and prior inductees decide who joins their elite class. Wrestling flourishes based on the fans and a wrestler's ultimate legacy should be decided by the fans - by that, I mean his ultimate legacy in the HOF.

    Benoit was no better or no worse than fifty other wrestlers I have seen in my time and the period before my time. He didn't have a dominating gimmick, he didn't generate excitement with the mic, he wasn't flashy in the ring and he didn't exactly make other wrestlers money by selling t-shirts, tickets or PPV's.

    Benoit was simply a good wrestler in a locker room full of good wrestlers.
  6. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

    Mar 18, 2008
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    Why would I want an unbiased opinion in a debate? That's dumb.

    Great, so then that whole section was just your bitching about who isn't in already and had nothing to do with the debate? Awesome.

    You won't address it because you mentioned guys that you think belong in, I showed how Benoit deserves it more than they do, and you can't argue the point, and I win. Cool. I finish with the post for fun and practice.

    Yes, I do. He won the title. Jeff Hardy is recognized as a three time world champ, and one of his reigns was eight minutes, so yes, I do.

    But for you to state that opinion as fact the first time isn't absurd? Hypocrite. Either way, he won the title, he was over, the place went nuts. Can you argue that? What the fuck does the storyline part of his title win matter? The WWE decided that he and Eddie had both given enough and gotten enough over to win it on the same night, and that somehow diminishes his win? Or, you said he only won it because Eddie did.

    Here's my response.

    Fucking sound familiar?

    The reason you forget is because, while those matches are Edge, and Jeff, and Christian and Matt's best matches, they don't even register in the top fifty of Jericho and Benoit's matches.

    So, Eddie started it because he talked the most? I say all four of them started it because they came all together.

    So, when it's convenient for you, the title holder is a joke, but when it's not, the title holder delegitimizes the belt? Which is it?

    That was just one of the reasons. But Edge is most certainly going in. He is going in on the same merits...title reigns.

    Ummm, So? Imagine that! A tribute show breaking kayfabe? What an idea. I know all about that show. I had tickets for that show.

    I'm guessing your argument here is that Chris Benoit doesn't belong in the hall of fame because his friends chose to talk about his friendship at his tribute show? That's not a very good argument.

    The high fliers aren't at the top of the business. Evan Bourne isn't in the main event. The WWE doesn't even have high fliers anymore, beyond a couple of guys who serve as nothing more than a way to pop the kids.

    It was a gimmick match. Should we base our arguments on one match or on the last few months of the feud? Do you watch wrestling?

    No, you don't watch wrestling. He submits people. He works body parts, usually the back. But Cena plays Ricky Morton until he can hot tag himself in singles matches.

    I don't see how any of this even addresses my arguement. I stated that Benoit would be able to fit in and have good matches with all of these guys. Can you not argue that? Is there a reason you can give why Benoit wouldn't be on the level of Jericho or higher right now? No....you can't.

    Or maybe it's because I watched the fucking match. Maybe it's because it left me with an amazing memory or Benoit and Austin. I'm sorry that you don't watch wrestling, but I do. Two commercial breaks, thirty minutes, stunner kicked out of, interference at the end. One of the top five matches I've ever seen. Please, go back to ranking divas and stop debating this topic.

    You can't prove opinions as "without a doubt." Chris Benoit was a better mat wrestler than Bret Hart.

    Because only three guys actually got famous for it. Benoit, Bret, Owen. And before you say it, I said famous. Lance Storm is not famous.

    Probably the same reason that no one uses a pedigree today? It is his move.

    So the fuck what? Everyone uses a DDT, but beyond shitty ass Mickie James, it isn't a finisher.

    He was spectacular at both. That is why he is a Hall of Famer.

    [quot]That's funny - you just claimed Benoit was a better singles competitor, but then use a tag match to demonstrate his greatness.[/quote]

    That's funny, because I always maintained he was great at both.

    What? Were you in creative meetings? Stop repeating the same hypocrisy.

    Koko B. Ware called. He said stop being stupid. A fan favorite with a couple of world title reigns is the definition of a Hall of Famer.

    The question is about before the events, so this wouldn't work.

    Where do you see fans on this list?

    Let's let the fans book too!!!

    The Rabid Wolverine was awesome. He was in a strong faction. His intensity was his gimmick.

    He didn't hurt himself on it either.

    And yet this is how he got over, based fully on his ring work.

    I bought Wrestlemania XX to see Benoit, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    Benoit was a great wrestler, who got a following based only on his skill in a locker room full of guys relying solely on gimmicks to get over. He went against the grain, was very successful, bridged the last two eras of wrestling, transformed the product in the ring, got the HHH seal of approval, got the Austin seal of approval, and most improtantly, got the fans seal of approval. Benoit deserves to be a Hall of Famer based solely on his time in the business. Any events that may have happened were personal. No one excludes Ty Cobb from the Hall of Fame because of his off the field exploits.
  7. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

    Jan 9, 2009
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    So you could form an unbiased opinion. Seems like a novel concept doesn't it ?

    No, it was about name dropping guys who should be considered well before Benoit gets considered. Didn't I make that clear in my last post ??!!

    A brother acts like Terrell Owens and has just as many titles as he does - none - very classy.

    That doesn't make it legit. Technically, you're right, but how many wrestling pundits criticize Edge for having nine title reigns in two and a half years ? Holding the belt is nice, but holding the belt for a long period of time helps make you great.

    At no time did I say that your point wasn't plausible too. I was simply defending my point which you blatantly said "is not true". Pot, meet kettle so we can decide which one of us is black today.

    The reason I (or a vast majority of wrestling fans) forget is because Edge, Christian and the Hardy's stole the show in those matches. Benoit was simply fodder on the card because he had no other storyline to work within. It's not a case of me (or other wrestling fans) forgetting, it's a case of Benoit not giving us anything to remember.

    So Tully Blanchard formed the Four Horsemen and Randy Orton formed Evolution and Kip James (Bad Ass Billy Gunn) formed DX ?

    Every stable has a leader and a guy who presents himself as the "man". At no point in time did Chris Benoit present himself as that "man". He was simply part of a decent stable that hardly ranks in the annals of wrestling history as a dominant faction - nothing more, nothing less.

    Depends on the said title holder. Arquette = joke. Benoit = transition champ.

    So is that what the HOF is all about for you - title reigns ? There's a lot more that should go into a guy being inducted into the HOF. Edge will get in, but it's for so much more than title's held.

    No, I'm arguing that he was highly respected for many other things besides his wrestling ability. Again, he was a good wrestler in a locker room full of good wrestlers. But that doesn't make him HOF worthy and neither does his role as a good friend or mentor.

    Plenty of guys who serve as spot monkeys are in the main event scene - Hardy, Mysterio, Christian, Edge, etc... It's not about constant jumping and flipping, but it's about a guy who's willing to go out and make the crowd chant "holy shit" every once in a while. Benoit certainly made the fans applaud a good performance, but he never had his "holy shit" moments.

    Do you read the columns from Mark Madden on the main WZ news site ? If not you should because your arrogant and cocky typing makes me think you believe you're the foremost authority on wresting.

    I can't disagree with your argument that Benoit would fit with those guys today because he would - any good wrestler would. Even a half decent wrestler could go with those guys today because they could carry the match. That's why they're considered superstars and always main eventing PPV's.

    You must have read the Chris Cash article as well. I would have put Mickie in the top ten, but I digress :)

    I would love to stop debating this topic, but you keep trying to reiterate a point that has no basis. Stop replying and I can as well.

    I will agree to disagree because you're right, it's impossible to form a correct answer on this matter. However, with Bret Hart being my all time favorite wrestler, I am a bit biased in the matter.

    Because it takes a lot more than mat wrestling to get famous in the industry. Lots of guys could mat wrestle, but very few had a personality that went along with their in ring skill.

    I'm not sure how Benoit became one of those two (Owen doesn't count either - his name, his brother and his death made him famous). I think we'll agree that he wasn't exactly Mr. Personality on the mic or in his promo work.

    The Ultimate Warrior called too and wondered why you dissed his crazy ass in your second post if all it takes is a couple of title reigns and being a fan favorite to be a HOF'er ?

    Tommy Dreamer acts intense - is he a HOF'er ?

    Because he hardly ever picked it up or had it shoved in his face.

    Or becasue of the guys he hung around with and tagged with in the ring.

    I purchased it to see a lot of matches, not just Benoit's, but whatever floats your boat.

    But a lot of people argue that Ty Cobb should not be in the HOF. I argue that Benoit should not be in the HOF.
    Mr. TM likes this.
  8. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

    Mar 18, 2008
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    As a closing statement, I want to thank TM for a good topic and a worthy opponent.

    Chris Benoit bridged the gap between the last generation and the new generation. His title reigns were memorable because of who he beat to win those titles. He went over Sid and HHH to get World Championships. Both of these guys are considered World Championship material, and Chris Benoit went over them both in his biggest moments. You don't headline WM, especially number 20, if you are not a top flight star. The HOF is for top flight stars.

    I know that he was not a dynamic mic worker, and that's fine with me. I believe that when we examine the following he had, it makes his ring work more impressive. Anyone who can get that over with his ring work, makes him amazing. The HOF is for the amazing.

    Chris Benoit revolutionized the in ring product. He brought the submission style MMA look to the WWE. Before him, it was all strikes or flips. He definitely incorporated the top rope and his hands into the WWE, but he was known for throws and grappling. If we look at the WWE today, we can see his signature. He was a true revolutionary. The HOF is for the revolutionary.

    Chris Benoit was just as effective as a tag team wrestler as a singles star. He could adapt to any situation and any style to put on a classic match. He was a true showman. His opponents never looked bad. He never looked overmatches. This made the show better. The HOF is for the showmen.

    The HOF is for WWE stars, for the most part. Benoit threw the WCW away and came to the WWE. He stroked Vince's ego. The HOF is for those who stroke Vince's ego.

    He got the rub from so many of the top stars in the game. His best moments were against HHH and Austin and Angle, three surefire Hall of Famers. He made these guys look good, and no matter how stiff he worked, these guys continued to get involved with him, in the biggest of matches, and everyone looked good. The HOF is for those who rise to the occasion.

    Benoit fits all the criteria of a Hall of Famer. He got the seal of approval from HHH, Austin, and Angle. Vince centered his biggest PPV to date, WM XX, around him. True, events outside of the ring will mar his legacy, but if someone is to be appreciated for the work and contribution to the business, how can we deny that Chris Benoit is a Hall of Famer? We cannot, and he should be enshrined.
    ztwhite and Mr. TM like this.
  9. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

    Mar 16, 2007
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    Clarity Of Argument: Great Debate guys, interesting subject, and some great information brought up. FTS, you did an incredible job at making your post nice to read through, and it was very linear.

    Punctuality: both were on time, Thank you for that.

    Informative: A LOT of information brought up here guys, you both should be proud of yourselves. If you two keep bring it like this, there is a good chance that both of you two will be debating again for the conference championship. However I think ZTWhite brought the best stuff here.

    Emotionality: Emotional Topic deserves emotional debaters. You both did good, but FTS kept with his debate the best.

    Persuasion: ZTWhite had the hill to climb here, and he said so himself, but damn, he did well. Well actually you both did well, but ZTWhite did the best. He gets this point.

    TM rates this FTS 2, ztwhite 2.
  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

    May 22, 2009
    Likes Received:
    Clarity: FTS did a good job at making it fun and interesting to read, and his facts are right there, and can't be speculated.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Punctuality: Both on time.

    Point: Split

    Informative: FTS really clarified why Benoit's accolaids (sp?) should land him in the Hall of Fame. ztwhite made mention, but didn't compare them to other matches, only other stars.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Emotion: I have to go with FTS on this one. He was very adament about how big of a star Benoit was, and his accomplishments, even though he wasn't a man of many promos.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Persuasion: ztwhite is getting this point. He knew he was going uphill, and when I first saw the topic, I thought there was no chance in hell he could make enough points to even garner some other thought. But even though he had the uphill battle, he still made me at least think about it, whether or not I had originally agreed with him.

    Point: ztwhite

    CH David scores this fromthesouth 3.5, ztwhite 1.5.
  11. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Jul 1, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Clarity Of Debate - Both arguments were pretty clear and straightforward, but ztwhite's was definitely more compelling by virtue of its forceful language and flow. Good job, ztwhite.

    Point: ztwhite

    Punctuality - Both punctual, so you guys split here.

    Point: Split

    Informative - ztwhite is, at the very least, the second most thorough debater in this league when it comes to research. Although it showed in your argument, ztwhite, that you definitely didn't want to argue the side you were given, you were objective enough to see that there might be some reason why Chris Benoit should not be in WWE's Hall Of Fame, regardless of what he did to his family.

    Point: ztwhite

    Emotionality - Both debaters were more than willing to defend their arguments and rebut their opponent's. I'm splitting the point here, as the back and forth was classic.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion - fromthesouth had the easier side to argue, but he didn't take it for granted. ztwhite, though, must be commended for making a credible case for a stance that most people would have derided him for five or so years ago.

    Point: Split

    tdigle's Score

    fromthesouth - 1.5
    ztwhite - 3.5
  12. Miko


    Feb 18, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Clarity Of Debate - Both did a good job, but FTS was more clear to me

    Point: fromthesouth

    Punctuality - Splitter

    Point: Split

    Informative - tdigs said it best, so I wont elaborate

    Point: ztwhite

    Emotionality - ztwhite didnt want to argue that side really, sorry but it showed. Points for FTS

    Point: fromthesouth

    Persuasion - I am gonna split here, ztwhire did a good job with an uphill battle but FTS was ruthless. Cant say fairer than that really.

    Point: Split

    My scoring is as follows

    fromthesouth - 3
    ztwhite - 2

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