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Ok, so I apologize (once again) for taking so long to reply. However, this time, I had to do a bunch of research on this subject before creating a reply. This subject puts one of my top 3 favorite performers of all time against one of my top least favorites, so it kind of strikes a nerve with me.
In order for me to properly debate on this subject, I had to tear myself away from being a wrestling fan since before Hulkamania was born. My old-school mentality may have biased my opinion, and I could not allow that to happen here. So, let the debate begin...
First of all, and generally speaking, who are we debating here?
In this week's debate, we are pitting old school versus new school. The golden-aged roots versus the action-packed, entertainment leveraged present/future of professional wrestling. While both of these wrestlers represent two completely different eras of the sport, their styles and influences are extremely similar.
In order to truly differentiate the two, we need to look at them in a parallel way of thinking, without the biased views of who "paved the way."
Traditionally, Randy Savage would always be the initial thought when pertaining to influencial superstars of wrestling based on chronology. So, what I'm trying to say is that it shouldn't matter who came first or second. The only thing that matters here is the individual stamp that these men put on the sport of professional wrestling, regardless of time and era.
In one corner, you have Randy Savage: A second generation superstar that used agility and a top rope moveset in a time when professional wrestlers were getting over from muscular physiques and pugilistic brute force and ground technique. He was quick in the ring and wore attention-getting, stylistic robes the likes of Ric Flair. His feud with Ricky Steamboat is one of the most memorable feuds of the 80's, due to their similarity in wrestling style and chemistry.
In the other corner, there is Rob Van Dam: A virtual nobody in the wrestling industry that arose from humble beginnings in Battle Creek, Michigan. He was a first generation superstar that came from absolutely nothing and rose to become one of the most popular professional wrestlers to ever enter the ring. He had a modern, everyday look and a laid-back charisma outside of the ring, but is one of the most exciting in-ring performers to ever exist (I'll elaborate later).
Before I answer, let's define influence (as defined by dictionary.com): the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others
1. Rob Van Dam received national attention in a 3rd tier promotion based solely on his skill and not on his controversy. Randy Savage achieved fame wrestling for one of the only two nationally syndicated wrestling programs going at the time.
These facts influence future professional wrestlers and teaches them that their career can be only be what they make of it. Being in the WWE or TNA doesn't matter... if you have the right stuff, you can make a splash and become a star in ANY promotion that you are a part of.
2. Rob Van Dam achieved fame and success with men like Jerry Lynn, Sandman, Taz, and Sabu. Van Dam got the most out of performers who were average at best. Savage needed Steamboat and Hogan to be relevant.
Similar to my previous point, you do not need a top promotion or top of the world talent to become a relevant superstar in the world of professional wrestling.
3. Savage was known for this agility and risk-taking. Rob Van Dam took everything Savage ever did in the ring and did it better, faster, harder, and with a greater degree of difficulty.
Savage's "high-flying," "agile," and memorable moveset was more limited than everyone thinks. Over the past few days, I have watched COUNTLESS matches involving Savage, and his "high-flyer" arsenal is limited to nothing more than a top rope axe handle (in and outside the ring), a flying elbow, and clotheslining his opponent over the top rope as he jumped over the top and outside of the ring. Besides that, Savage was as grounded as every other professional wrestler that bored us in the 80's, 90's, and during our present product.
Not to mention the fact that RVD is the innovator of professional wrestling's hardcore moveset. He created a style that was so ground breaking, an entire wrestling promotion gained national attention for being based around it. This created a chain-reaction in the likes of matches being molded out of RVD's wrestling style and the largest wrestling promotion in the world branding the product of RVD's former wrestling promotion!
4. Rob Van Dam became the most famous independent wrestler in the world in the late 90's despite never winning his promotion's world title.
This speaks for itself. He took the ECW TELEVISION TITLE (what?!?) and made it more popular than the promotion's world title! And, he gained this popularity by holding a third tier title in a third tier promotion!
5. Randy Savage benefitted not only from the Hogan-rub, but from the Vince McMahon marketing machine. RVD did his own Marketing, grassroots style, and then brought his star with him to the WWF.
In the WWE, Savage was booked strong from day one, and did little more than simply not disappoint people.
On the other hand, despite none of the top bookers and creative team of the WWE believing in him, despite his well-documented drug habits, and despite his lack in physique and size, RVD still rose to obtain every major championship that the WWE offered. These championships included the prestigious WWE title, defeating the WWE's top superstar (John Cena) at a PAY PER VIEW molded in RVD's honor and while simultaneously holding the ECW championship!
So, let's take a close look at all of these points I've stated. Now, like I said earlier, without the mentality of "who came first" or "who paved the way", you make the decision about who was more influencial.
I think I've made it clear... it's ROB... VAN... DAM.
PS - In reference to my first paragraph, if you were wondering who one of my favorite versus least favorite wrestlers were, Savage is one of my favorites and RVD is one of my least favorites. Shocking, isn't it? But I'll never let my personal feelings get in the way of pure facts, as stated above.
In summation, Savage was one of your favorites and you absolutely hate RVD with a passion. You seem like a pretty typical wrestling fan D Man, I don't know you that well but you're a smart guy who has probably been following wrestling for awhile, I'm sure there are many other fans like you who feel the same way in regards to Savage and RVD. Savage is just a more likeable guy and I'm sure he has many more fans than RVD.
Their styles may be similar, but Savage did it first. He gave wrestling fans something new and exciting. Sure RVD may have jumped a little higher and landed with a little more impact, but it was much more special when Savage did it.
Why do we have to look at them in a parallel way? I'm assuming it's to level the playing field. Savage did pave the way, he was the poster child for RVD and all other high flyers that came after him. He helped inspire hundreds of future wrestlers, there is even a wrestler that is pretty much a copy of him, Jay Lethal. Randy Savage was that important, he is a huge asset to the wrestling world.
It should matter who came first, they did something different and innovative while the person who came second pretty much copied the first person, but put a little twist on what they did. Christopher Columbus was not the best exploring ever, but he was the first European to reach the Americas. That certainly makes him a better asset to exploring than the guy who went second, even if the second guy was slightly better. The era a wrestler wrestled in certainly affects how much of an asset they were to pro wrestling.
And he was fucking Miss Elizabeth.
RVD was pretty popular, but definetly not as popular as Savage ever was. I can assure you there are about twice as many Savage fans in the world than their are RVD fans in the world.
As for his laid-back charisma, whatever the hell that is, how does that matter at all? It doesn't really affect what he did in the ring or for the wrestling industry.
(dictionary.com)_asset- a useful and desirable thing or quality:
Look, I can copy and paste definitions too, and mine actually coincides with the debate.
Just because RVD was in a worse company that makes him a better asset? If Savage were in ECW at the same time as RVD, he would've been 10 times more popular.
I'm not sure how RVD would've done in the WWF during Savage's days. The bottomline is I don't see how RVD was anymore useful or desireable by being in ECW. If you are a pro wrestler today you are still thinking about making it in one of the big promotions, there are only a small handful that dont'.
Just because RVD was the best wrestler in the shit hole that was ECW it doesn't mean he was better than Savage.
Just because some lady in the warehouse you work at looks good there, doesn't mean she is actually hot. She is only "office hot." When you go out to party later that night you see dozens of girls much hotter than her. RVD is only "office hot."
As for Savage needing Steamboat and Hogan, I completely disagree. He was just as talented as each of those men in the ring, maybe even more talented. This is shown by some of the great matches he had with guy like Jake Roberts, Tito Santana, and Ted Dibiase, who certainly weren't "great" workers.
RVD may have been more athletic and done things bigger and better, but that is how things athletics progress over time. Babe Ruth didn't hit the ball farther or homer more often than guys today, but since he was the power hitter ever he is recognized as a better asset to baseball. Guys on the PGA Tour hit the ball farther today, but that is because the sport has evolved. Bubba Watson hits the ball over 300 yds, but if someone like Greg Norman were playing today he'd do the same thing.
Just because RVD may haven't jumped a little higher or had a little more hangtime it doesn't make him better than the man he got his high flying moveset from.
What exactly did RVD do to innovate the hardcore movement? Just because he came up with the Rolling Thunder it doesn't make him an innovator.
Pretty much the same as your first point. For some reason RVD wasn't good enough to win the World Title, so he had to settle for the World Title.
When guys like Johnny Hotbody, Justin Credible, Mikey Wripreck, and Mike Awesome hold the World Title of course a decent guy with the TV Title will recieve some attention for doing some flippy shit and not completely sucking. Once again, I go back to my point that if RVD was so good, why didn't he hold the World Title?
Once again, very similar to points 1 and 4, RVD wasn't good enough for Vince and the WWE to get completely behind him, and that's a positive thing?
Just because he was able to win the WWE Title agianst a young John Cena thanks to Edge and Paul Heyman, that doesn't make him great.
Sure it was a great moment, but he dropped the title a month later. The ECW Title he held was nothing more than a mid card title anyway.
I actually guessed that before reading this part. Despite the way you tried to twist your facts and turn one reason into 3 while ignoring something that makes Savage a much better asset than RVD, you still haven't proven much.
In the end, Savage is a better asset because
1. He paved the way for RVD and everywhere high flyer today by being the first.
2. Randy Savage v. Ricky Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3, one of the greatest matches ever than is still an asset to wresting fans today.
3. He did more than just flippys and hardcore spots like RVD, he was also a great technical wrestler.
4. He was good enough to one of the biggest stars in the top promotion, he didn't have to waste his time in ECW like the "office hot" RVD.
5. Savage was great on the mic, I've never heard an RVD promo that was anywhere close to great.
All of these things make Savage more useful and desirable to the wrestling world than RVD.
First and foremost, GD, I respect you in every way possible. If any of my replies become dry or offensive in any way, I did not intend it that way. This is merely a debate, and I post strongly for what I truly believe in.
Yes, Savage was likable, but he became overshadowed by RVD as the years passed on and RVD's career accelerated. I wanted to point out my personal opinion to show everyone that fact outweighs opinion in any case, including this one.
It is completely unfair to use chronology as an argument in this debate. Is it RVD's fault that he was born 18 years after Randy Savage?
Just because one wrestler was born first doesn't mean that automatically makes them an "influence" on everyone that came after him. In my research, not once during RVD's career did he ever mention Randy Savage as being someone that influenced his style of wrestling.
Hell, Jimmy Snuka came before Savage... I guess since Snuka's "Superfly" came before Savage's elbow, then Snuka must be Savage's influence. And then since Lou Thesz jumped off the ropes in one of his matches in the past then he must be Snuka's influence, right? Absolutely not.
This proves my point that chronology and time lines do not determine an influencial figure in professional wrestling, unless stated by the wrestler themself. And unless you can prove that RVD named Savage as a direct influence of his, this point doesn't hold any water.
I never said Savage wasn't an influence. I'm merely stating that RVD was a bigger influence on the wrestling product. Savage did not have wrestling promotions, matches, and WWE brands (and television shows) molded in his wrestling style. The day I see the "Wednesday Night Elbow Drop" at 8pm on ESPN, I'll succumb to your way of thinking.
Oh, that's right. Because no one ever had sex prior to the Macho Man's reign in professional wrestling. I stand corrected.
This is pure speculation and opinion. This is a debate and without proof, this comment is meaningless.
What if I said, "I can probably name more RVD fans than Savage fans. I swear! I promise!" How would you reply to that? Bullshit, you say? Exactly my reaction.
Oh, I see. You need to resort to nit-picking at two words out of an entire paragraph of facts in order to make one of your points look valid? Tsk, tsk.
In the other corner, there is Rob Van Dam: A virtual nobody in the wrestling industry
that arose from humble beginnings in Battle Creek, Michigan.
He was a first generation superstar that came from absolutely nothing and rose to become one of the most popular professional wrestlers to ever enter the ring.
He had a modern, everyday look and a laid-back charisma outside of the ring, but is one of the most exciting in-ring performers to ever exist (I'll elaborate later).
Anyway, laid-back charisma is my personal words at describing his demeanor at any time while he was in character and not wrestling. The mere fact that I had to explain that makes me laugh. Either way, what difference does my personal description of his demeanor make in this debate? Oh, that right... none.
Good for you. But instead of taking a sarcastic approach, I backed up my definition with facts, not opinions.
Once again, this is a debate. Your opinions mean nothing. If you have proof to back up this statement then I stand corrected. Obviously, you don't.
You mean to tell me that RVD's style would not have captivated audiences of the 80's era?? According to you, the "Flying Elbow Drop" was such an innovative move that some would dare call it "influencial!" So you're saying that the 5-Star Frog Splash, Rolling Thunder, Van Daminator, Van Terminator, or Split-Legged Moonsault wouldn't have catapulted RVD in the 1980's and changed the face of wrestling forever?
And you cannot compare an era when territories ruled the land to today's structure of promotional wrestling product. In the 80's, if a wrestler was a star in Stampede Wrestling, Pacific Northwest Wrestling, the AWA, WCCW, NWA, etc., they were brought into the WWE and given an automatic push, just the same way Savage was. These days, even if you're the TNA Champion and you jump ship to WWE, you still have to work your way up the ranks (a.k.a. Christian).
He still became a nationally known phenomenon while in that "shit-hole."
What in the blue-fuck does this mean? Are you making up terminology to make yourself sound intelligent? "Office hot"?? A hot girl is a hot fucking girl, last I checked. Therefore, RVD is a hot commodity whether he wrestled in the WWE, TNA, WCW, ECW, or the shack in your neighbor's backyard.
Ted DiBiase or Tito Santana weren't great workers?!? I mean, Jake I understand. But Santana and DiBiase?!? I can't even argue this...
And according to the concensus on the internet, John Cena isn't a great worker. Nor was half of ECW's roster, yet RVD got great matches out of them (as I stated in my previous post).
And I actually agree with you... In my opinion, Savage was more talented than half of the WWF's roster. But his influence is what it is question here.
He received rub after rub from arguably the most influencial wrestler of all time, Hulk Hogan. Hell, Savage got the chance to have a storyline and feud with the Hulkster for an entire year!! Naturally, this influences everyone's thinking on the type of influence that he made on pro-wrestling. However, RVD had to build himself up through the garbage in ECW and the low/midcard of the WWE, while battling the corporate machine behind the scenes, and he STILL climbed to the top of the mountain.
Yet professional athletes and record-breakers in today's world of sports are mostly surrounded by the controversy of steroid use. RVD never took steroids... but he was still able to jump higher, further, and move faster. And who's the guy that has been documented for taking steroids in the 1980's? Oh that's right, Randy Savage.
Did you ever watch ECW at all? In all seriousness and not to sound like a jerk, but you really should have done more research on ECW before making these statements. RVD revolutionized the hardcore movements with his innovative movesets and match techniques.
Prior to RVD, men like Cactus Jack had sloppy matches with foreign objects and mutilated themselves to be labeled as "hardcore." RVD took those foreign objects and created an arsenal of in-ring moves that flowed like poetry in the ring. He didn't mutilate himself... he mutulated others in a cutting edge, exciting manor. All of this snow balled into every bit of hardcore wrestling television that you see in the present day.
I assume you meant "Television Title." It's ok, I'll help your side of the debate. It looks like you need a little backup...
I am SOOO happy you asked this question. It's the simplest of answers... He didn't need to. Anyone that is a true fan of pro-wrestling knows that the idea behind titles is to gain a specific wrestler's momentum and increase their popularity, thereby making them more marketable for the purpose of SELLING TICKETS and MAKING MONEY. Titles are nothing more than props. But, if you hold the world title in such high regards, then it makes my point stronger... RVD didn't need it's promotion's top honor in order to be it's most popular commodity. Savage did.
Yes, because he rose above it and made the most powerful man in wrestling stick his foot in his mouth. He did something that not many are able to do... Proved Vince wrong.
Um, didn't Savage need Hogan to win his first title? Yup, exactly.
Oh, and Cena was far from young. I'd rate the "young Cena" as the "Word-Life" Cena. When RVD beat him, he was far and away full blown, main-event material.
But it was still ground breaking. And if the top promotion in the world recognizes the ECW title as a world title, then it must be. If it smells like shit and looks like shit, then it's probably shit.
You mean besides proving that every one of your statements were incorrect and were either your personal opinion or lacked the proper research? Yup, you're right.
I already proved that paving the way doesn't always make you more "influencial." Did you forget what this debate was about?
This is the only point that I cannot argue against. This match absolutely kicked ass.
RVD incorporated and fused technical wrestling with hardcore and high-flying. As a result, a brand new style of wrestling was formed. Just because he didn't do 18 pinfall attempts in one match with one of the greatest in-ring performers of our generation, that doesn't mean he wasn't a great technical wrestler.
Nah... he just wasted his time in Georgia Championship Wrestling and International Championship Wrestling. (Everyone has to climb the ranks. These were a few of the ECW's of that era.)
Give me 3 ways that Savage was "influencial" on a microphone and I'll give you a cookie. His "Ooooh Yeah" catch-phrase is every bit as relevant as RVD's "Cool" and "420."
Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. No hard feelings, GD. Seriously, I still think you're the fucking man.
Aside from the small edit I made in TM's post just now, there have been no edits in this thread.Just for the record, this thread of the debate originally asked about "influence" and not "assets". I think someone changed it half-way through. How can I be sure? I copied and pasted the original subject of this thread in an email to a friend of mine and I still have the email as proof. I don't know why or how it got changed, but as you can see, it completely affected my think-pattern, reactions, and direction of my posts on this part of the debate.