WCW Region, Fourth Round, Iron Man Match: (1) Steve Austin vs. (4) Lou Thesz

Who Wins This Match?

  • Steve Austin

  • Lou Thesz


Results are only viewable after voting.
So now the referee is just going to disqualify Austin once and then wait until Austin has completed his vicious illegal beating before restarting the match? Hmmm...

You act as if that is a stretch to beleive. Man hits Man with weapon- gets DQ, Match continues. The ref would DQ Austin and try to pry him off or take the weapon away and possibly get ko'd in the process. The ref's dont use a calculator to add up the amount of strikes in a single attack. Look at other Iron Man matches that had falls lost to intentional DQ's. Its not a far stretch. He would sacrifice a fall to do damage. Im not saying he would beat him for 10 minutes straight or hit him 30 times with a chair. A few well placed shots to sacrifice a fall but injure your opponent is all in the realm of reality.



Using TheWrestlingGod's dynamic "reasoning", why wouldn't Thesz just repeatedly pin the unconscious Austin who moronically refused to tap out?


Never said he wouldnt try just that. Just pointed something out to go along with point #1. But dont play dumb and over exaggerate your point. My point has some merit. Your 'logic' of Thesz pinning Austin multiple times in succesion is stretching it a tad bit. He could very easily make him pass out and then pin him, but what evidence do you have of that ever happening multiple times in a row. Maybe a guy got 1 fall off of it at some point in history- but in no way does he get multiple pins. Havent seen it before or heard it mentioned.



Hell, why not just have Thesz break his neck and he can just rack up the pins on a paralyzed Austin? Jackass.


I asked for examples of how either man could go the distance and win (not tie) and that is what you go with? Thesz will just keep pinning Austin for the rest of the match because he passed out? Thats weak, really far fetched and weak. In fact that is insulting a very intelligent and capable Thesz and undermining SCSA. You sir have probably made Gelgarin facepalm the fact you are on his side.


I still am undecided on who will win. I need more info, real info- not fantasy land stories. Rattlesnake, Gelgarin- what you got? My vote goes to whoever can show me their guy deserves this.
 
Match type: Thesz's stable diet was hour plus matches; Austin's diet has never included this stip...

Favors: Thesz

Kayfabe: Thesz was portrayed as THE submission machine; Austin portrayed as having prime targets for submission in his decrepit knees and broken neck...

Favors: Thesz

Region: Thesz fighting in his home federation were he headlined for decades; Austin fighting in his enemies home turf were he was deemed unworthy of headline status...

Favors: Thesz

Really folks, there comes a time when if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck... chances are, it's a duck. Bye Steve, the turkey has been snatched from you in the fourth round!
 
I'm an Austin mark through and through. He's the reason I'm on these boards today and why wrestling has become an avenue through which I can access my soul. No single person (character) other than people I have personally known has had more direct impact on my life than Stone Cold.

That being said, I'm going to give Thesz his fair shake. I will be voting by and large from the perspective that this is a work, as this is professional wrestling and not a shoot fight. I can appreciate the complete ignorant mark position that Gelgarin is arguing from, but wrestling means more to me in knowing that it is a work and still being enthralled. So, the fact that Thesz more regularly wrestled much longer matches than Austin ever did will factor far less in my vote. If they wanted to book Austin to win, they would find a way for him to go 60 minutes.

For now, I will enjoy the conversation.
 
Austin was the second most popular performer in all of pro wrestling history in the United States behind Hulk Hogan. If this were a woman's match it be Mildred Burke or Fabulous Moolah against Trish or Lita. Thesz was an innovator, but it's arguable that Austin took what Thesz started, what Hogan revolutionized, and made it even bigger than it was before.

That being said, Austin has won this Tournament the past three years in a row. Other well deserving guys like Hogan and Flair haven't even won it once. If Austin gets by Thesz here there's a strong chance that he could win this thing for a fourth year. That's why I'm voting Thesz because I'm simply split on the stip.
 
SCSA would take Lou Thesz to the limit; there's no doubt there.
As there is no doubt everyone LOVES SCSA... (ok, almost everyone.)
But Lou Thesz, one of (if not THE) greatest technician in pro wrestling history, takes this one home.
 
I cannot for life of me see how Austin wins this match. Many have said, Austin is a brawler, which does not suit this type of match up. I'll give Austin his due, he's solid in the ring, and can wrestle. However, that is not going to stand up to Thesz. Thesz is use to wrestling for an hour. Austin isn't, Thesz wins.
 
Austin was the second most popular performer in all of pro wrestling history in the United States behind Hulk Hogan. If this were a woman's match it be Mildred Burke or Fabulous Moolah against Trish or Lita. Thesz was an innovator, but it's arguable that Austin took what Thesz started, what Hogan revolutionized, and made it even bigger than it was before.

That being said, Austin has won this Tournament the past three years in a row. Other well deserving guys like Hogan and Flair haven't even won it once. If Austin gets by Thesz here there's a strong chance that he could win this thing for a fourth year. That's why I'm voting Thesz because I'm simply split on the stip.

Being popular is, or at least should be, completely irrelevant. This is about who would be better in the ring, not who the most popular guy is. Lou Thesz would wrestle circles around Austin in an Ironman match, which is why he should win. Has nothing to do with who was the most popular.
 
No one wrestled circles around Austin. It is basically idiotic to say that Austin is incapable of wrestling for an hour. He would not be as good towards the end but there is a humongous difference between not as good and automatically losing. Austin went 45+ minutes to win the Royal Rumble FWIW. It may not technically be about popularity, although technically there is no other criteria than what an individual thinks makes someone the greatest, but that doesn't mean it is only about technical wrestling ability either. It is about who scores the most victories during the match. Thesz can work his style all he wants but how is he going to put Austin down? The idea that Austin in his prime is going to be tapping multiple times in an hour is completely absurd. The idea that being a technical wrestler in an ironman match absolves you from getting a mudhole stomped in your ass for the first half of the match is mind boggling. It seems obvious to me that it is much easier for Austin to score multiple falls on Thesz than vice versa. Then all he has to do is pace himself to the end. It isn't like Austin is completely incompetent against technical wrestling either. He is more than capable of avoiding completely falling apart in the last 15 minutes of the match.
 
shattered dreams said:
No one wrestled circles around Austin.
Austin never wrestled Thesz.

shattered dreams said:
It is basically idiotic to say that Austin is incapable of wrestling for an hour. He would not be as good towards the end but there is a humongous difference between not as good and automatically losing.

Nobody is saying that Austin is physically incapable of wrestling an hour. However, Lou Thesz routinely wrestled 60+ minutes, and unlike Austin, WOULD still be good towards the end.

It is about who scores the most victories during the match.

Well, you got one part right, at least. Too bad that because of his superior conditioning, Thesz would be in a much better position to get late pinfalls, or force Austin to submit.

Thesz can work his style all he wants but how is he going to put Austin down?

By doing exactly that? Working his style?

The idea that Austin in his prime is going to be tapping multiple times in an hour is completely absurd.

Against Triple H, yes. Against Lou Thesz, no.

The idea that being a technical wrestler in an ironman match absolves you from getting a mudhole stomped in your ass for the first half of the match is mind boggling.

Do you seriously believe that Lou Thesz could have held the NWA World title for a combined 10+ years without ever facing a brawler and subsequently demolishing him with his vastly superior wrestling ability?

It seems obvious to me that it is much easier for Austin to score multiple falls on Thesz than vice versa.

How exactly? Lou Thesz was a legit hooker. I don't mean he was a prostitute, I mean he LEGIT submitted guys. Not applied a move that looked real but was just another "fake" wrestling move, but a legit, shoot style submission where the opponent either gave up, or got bones broken. Austin isn't going to risk getting his bones broken, he will tap just like anyone else.

Then all he has to do is pace himself to the end. It isn't like Austin is completely incompetent against technical wrestling either. He is more than capable of avoiding completely falling apart in the last 15 minutes of the match.

So...Austin has to pace himself, and just not fall apart...while Thesz would still be in great shape. That helps your argument a lot, doesn't it? You are arguing from the position that Austin would be wrestling simply not to lose in the final minutes, while Thesz would be wrestling to win.
 
Where did all these votes for Steve Austin come from? Reading posts from guys like Gelg who know what they're talking about swayed my vote for Thez. Thez regularly wrestled Iron Man matches and has the overall better athletic ability than Austin. If this was any other match that let Austin be the tougher son of a bitch, brawl, and just plain stomp holes into Thez I would have voted for Steve, but this is just not Austin's year.
 
When was Steve Austin’s prime? As Stunning Steve Austin he was known as a great technical wrestler and someone who I could easily see working a sixty minute match. He was also a mid carder, and while he was a great one he wouldn’t have gone over someone like Thesz. I think most will agree that Austin was not in his prime in WCW. So that means he was in his prime after winning the WWF title and becoming the face of the attitude era, right? If that’s the case his prime lasted about two years. Kind of surprising isn’t it? I guess you could consider 1997 to be part of his prime and give him a third year but given his reputation you would think Austin was on top for a decade plus. That simply was not the case.

Since it was the attitude era Austin rarely wrestled in a straight up one on one match that didn’t have a bunch of chaos and interference. From winning the title at WM14 to getting rundown at Survivor Series 99 how big matches did Austin have that were just straight clean matches? I remember matches with Foley, Rock, Taker, Kane, and Triple H just being total chaos. Sometimes Austin overcame the interference and sometimes it screwed him over. Either way Austin’s game in his prime was to go a hundred miles per hour and fight. I don’t think that style is going to help him here, at least not against a guy like Thesz. Stunning Steve Austin is a great technical wrestler but not one that can go over a star like Thesz. Stone Cold Steve Austin has two bad knees and a bad neck that an experienced grappler like Thesz is sure to capitalize on over the course of sixty minutes.
 
Austin never wrestled Thesz.

And Thesz never wrestled Austin.


Nobody is saying that Austin is physically incapable of wrestling an hour. However, Lou Thesz routinely wrestled 60+ minutes, and unlike Austin, WOULD still be good towards the end.

You cannot really say that. Being at the recieving end of Austin's offense is a different deal altogether, really. Look at what happened in Austin's 3 stages of hell match with HHH. HHH won but looked out towards the end. So much so, that Austin was able to do a stunner on him when Austin stood up. And that was only after 45 minutes, mind you. A guy who has great stamina and has won the most number of ironman matches in the history of the WWF looked as if he did not know where the hell he was.

Austin is possibly the greatest brawler of all time in kayfabe. Yes, he does not have the advantage of weapons here but he can use them particularily if he wants to. I can see what nightmare has said happening here. Also, referees got knocked down all the time in Austin's matches. Has happened in other ironman matches too. What is preventing Austin to beat the hell out of Thesz then?


Against Triple H, yes. Against Lou Thesz, no.

Can't remember him submitting a ton against Angle, Benoit, Jericho or Hart either who are all submission specialists. No doubt Thesz is much better than any of them but the fact remains that no one has made Austin submit a lot.

Also, look at some of Thesz records in multiple fall matches. He sometimes went 60 to 90 minutes with either 0 falls or 1 fall to his name. Nothing really says he can make Austin submit again and again.


Do you seriously believe that Lou Thesz could have held the NWA World title for a combined 10+ years without ever facing a brawler and subsequently demolishing him with his vastly superior wrestling ability?

You cannot compare Austin to just any brawler just like you cannot compare Thesz to Benoit, Hart or Angle.


How exactly? Lou Thesz was a legit hooker. I don't mean he was a prostitute, I mean he LEGIT submitted guys. Not applied a move that looked real but was just another "fake" wrestling move, but a legit, shoot style submission where the opponent either gave up, or got bones broken. Austin isn't going to risk getting his bones broken, he will tap just like anyone else.

Thesz being a real fighter matters little because we are arguing in kayfabe. Meaning that whatever fake stuff we see in wrestling is real. In that sense, Austin is the toughest SOB in the planet. He can easily be booked not to tap out multiple times in the match. Given the superstar that he is, it is pretty apparent he won't tap out too many times.

So...Austin has to pace himself, and just not fall apart...while Thesz would still be in great shape. That helps your argument a lot, doesn't it? You are arguing from the position that Austin would be wrestling simply not to lose in the final minutes, while Thesz would be wrestling to win.

Thesz also has a lot on his mind in this match-up. He is facing the greatest brawler of all time, the guy who used to get pinfalls pretty quick. He has to be extra cautious in the first twenty minutes, especially.

I must say, though, that despite being a huge Austin fan, I do not have much problem with Thesz winning. Austin has won the tournament twice after all. I would say though that implying that this would be a cakewalk for Thesz or that the voting should not be close is dumb.
 
Austin lost a lot, even in his prime. Thesz rarely lost throughout his entire career, that spanned multiple decades. MANY wrestlers have beaten the so-called "greatest brawler of all time", while far, far fewer can claim to have beaten Thesz.
 
Being popular is, or at least should be, completely irrelevant. This is about who would be better in the ring, not who the most popular guy is. Lou Thesz would wrestle circles around Austin in an Ironman match, which is why he should win. Has nothing to do with who was the most popular.

I would say its irrelevent at least in this case for two reasons: 1.) Both men were immensely popular, Austin maybe more than Thesz, but I wouldn't know how to compare the two. 2.) Thesz has the kayfabe advantage.

It wouldn't shead a tear if Austin losses as he's won this Tournament more than once before.

I would say that drawing power has the most relevence if neither guy has a kayfabe advantage.
 
Man, everyone really drank Gelgarin's Kool-Aid on this one.


Wrestling is a work. A work. One thing that no one has sufficiently done is convince me that I should GIVE A SHIT about Lou Thesz. Sure, Lou has technical capacities, but he's not nearly going to sell the volume of tickets/amass the amount of ratings and ppv buys that are essential to a modern wrestling environment.

If this was a shoot, then Ken Shamrock or Lesnar should probably win this, hands down, no?

Why does David Stern have nightmares about the potential of a San Antonio/Indiana NBA Finals matchup? Because no one but people in San Antonio/Indiana will give a shit..thus ratings will suffer.

The settings of the tournament are modern, and thus, it would seem to me that if the person advertising this tournament would be far more interested in the drawing power of Steve Austin advancing in the tournament than Lou Thesz.
 
The Gelgarin cool aid comments again. Please see my remarks to JMT for a rough indication of why you can go fuck yourself - then enlarge the font since at least he managed to field a non-******ed counter argument.

There's nothing anyone could have said that would make you vote in favour of Thesz. You were always going to vote against your own ignorance, and nothing anyone could say or do was going to change that.

Nobody has been advancing the argument that Lou Thesz was going to turn this into a shoot fight. I mean, he could have done, and would utterly destroy Steve Austin in a few minutes, but nobody is arguing that as the reason why he goes over.

Seventy two people have voted Thesz as the greater wrestler because, amongst other things, he was the greater professional wrestler. He was more significant, more dominant, a better draw in relation to his time period, he achieved more and left a greater legacy. He was also a few hundred times better suited for the match type in question given his superior conditioning, experience in multi fall matches and lack of crippled limbs.

Against all of that, if the only counter argument you can field is "This is apparently a modern tournament, and Stone Cold was on TV." then you absolutely lack a single leg to stand on when it comes to sneering pretension regarding how other people made their voting decisions.
 
Gelgarin said:
Nobody has been advancing the argument that Lou Thesz was going to turn this into a shoot fight. I mean, he could have done, and would utterly destroy Steve Austin in a few minutes, but nobody is arguing that as the reason why he goes over.

I surely haven't. I suggested that others were looking at it as a "shoot" (different than "shoot fight"), as if it was a real competition where the two workers were actually working against instead of with one another. Let's find out how you argued.

For one, the match is the most cardio intensive content is the whole of professional wrestling
.

Cardio. This suggests that this is a REAL competition, where if one had lesser cardiovascular capabilities than his or her "opponent," they could not be compensated for using rest holds, etc. Not to mention, it's one fucking match. I'm sure a pro like Steve Austin would be able to do it one time, even though the rest holds that are built in for guys to catch their wind would certainly suffice.

Sixty minutes is insane, and you need to be a machine to simply survive that long in the ring.

Rest holds, bro.

When it comes to cardio I'm awarding the points to the guy who used to wrestle for sixty minutes on a regular basis. Lou Thesz had regular 60 minute matches against the likes of Gagne, Rogers, Rocca, Carpenter, O'Connor and every other big name from his generation and managed to go for four years without losing a match.

Awesome. But seriously...it's a fucking work. Austin could do it if he had to.

Stone Cold was never famous for his cardio, and almost never wrestled for longer than twenty minutes. There is simply no interpretation of the facts that enables Steve Austin to compete with Lou Thesz in this kind of content.

Other than the fact that promoters don't think that the fans have the attention span for 60 minute matches these days, particularly with television. It makes no sense to regularly go 60.

I repeat...work, not shoot.

There's also the fact of multiple falls. You might brush this off, but being able to survive over multiple falls is a valuable skill, and one that Lou Thesz has shown on a regular basis. During Thesz's ten years as a world champion the belt was always defended in a three fall environment. Lou Thesz has much more experience of getting back up after the fall has been declared
.

Sweet. It's fake, bro. It's a business where buying T-shirts and getting ratings gets you the most money. The people that get you the most money are the ones who go over in modern settings. That person is Austin, not Thesz.


Then of course you have to consider how a iron man match works. Unless it is presented in a disqualification free environment (which this content is not) then the match invariably comes down to mat wrestling. Mat wrestling... are you fucking kidding me? Stone Cold had little to no prowess on the mat at the best of times, and he's going against the greatest ring technician in the entire history of professional wrestling. Anyone who even thinks that Stone Cold has a chance on this front is utterly deluded and probably harbours inappropriate feelings about caribou.

Sure, Austin is not the better mat wrestler. Could he DO mat wrestling though and make it work with Thesz? Yes. People have gone over others in conditions where the opponent would logically be favored many a time based on a decision of who would draw more. Would happen for Austin, as well.

Austin is a better brawler, but he doesn't have the stamina to brawl for sisty minutes. Lou Thesz is the better technician, and he's been known to go at it for two hours at a time.

Once again, irrelevant because it's a work.

Then there's the question of resilience. In their day both men were pretty hard to defeat, although Stone Cold never managed to be world champion for four straight years. Austin was tough to put down, but he was never unbeatable like people with rose tinted vision remember. He lost to Undertaker, he lost to Kane he lost to Mankind, he lost to HHH and he lost to Kurt Angle. Actually Angle presents us with an example worthy of further study. If you look and Stone Cold's career he has very little experience of fighting technical wrestlers, the only two I am able to bring to mind being Kurt Angle and Bret Hart, both of whom managed to defeat Steve Austin using leg submissions
.

Attention spans and storylines, bro. Nationally televised stuff. Of course you keep a belt on a guy for longer periods of time without that kind of stuff...there would still be money to be made off of him where he hadn't been yet. This is of little relevance.

Which brings me on to the already visited topic of Stone Cold's crappy legs. They sucked. The man had knee injuries all though his career. We've already established that those knees were vulnerable to submission holds. Now; riddle me this: Lou Thesz is famous for inventing a submission hold that targeted which part of the body? If you said 'the legs' then congratulations, you win.

Since wrestling is a work and the match is predetermined, Austin would be told beforehand whether or not he is to tap. The status of his legs in that regard matters little. Hell, Triple H won the Main Event of Mania with his quad "hanging by a thread" against a pseudo-submission wrestler.

It's a work.

Lou Thesz invented the original STF, a step-over toe hold which which he acquired more submissions that Steve Austin wrestled matches. In later years he adapted the hold to also target the neck. Which part of Stone Cold was in ever worse condition than his knees? You guessed it, his neck.

Work. Doesn't matter.

But right now I can hear the braying masses queueing up to spout their drivel about Stone Cold not tapping out. I mean, obviously he tapped out several times before, but none of those count because of magic. Well even that we accept that Stone Cold is too heroic to submit, we already know that he's also stupid enough to let himself pass out from a submission hold. You let that happen in an iron man match and that's it, game over. Austin was famous for being stupid for pretty much his entire run, whilst Lou Thesz had a reputation for being one of the smartest men in the industry. Yet another advantage to Lou Thesz.

Yes, one predicated on this being an actual competition.

Another factor that helps Lou Thesz in this match is the fact that Lou Thesz never felt the need to beat his wife. I haven't quite figured out how this wins him the match yet, but I'm working on it. Lou Thesz was a consummate professional in all things, whilst Stone Cold was an intergalactic sized cunt. The best chance he has of avoiding defeat is if he refuses to show up, as he was prone to do.

You sure about that? Wife beating was more widely accepted back in the day. Furthermore, this is the equivalent to Rock calling Cena "gay" in his promos because he has nothing to work with. Good point, bro.

Then there's the question of legacy. You can't deny Stone Cold's significance. After all, he was the centrepiece of the worst period in professional wrestling history, but if you're an attitude era fanboy then Austin is your man. Then again, without Lou Thesz there probably wouldn't have been a global pro wrestling industry for the Attitude Era to soil. It's a toss up here. Lou Thesz was far more significant and achieved far more, but he did have the advantage of coming first. Would Austin have achieved as much in Thesz's shoes? No chance, he'd have had his wrist broken by Karl Gotch on day one as a punishment for being a twat.

All subjective shit, bro. "More significant" and "achieved far more"? I highly doubt those things, particularly in terms of overall significance.

If you think I'm getting overly tangential at this point then rest assured that you're not the only one. Gelgarin has been awake for over 24 hours, but you fuckers seemed disinclined to wait around for me to post, so I'm having to bash this out at record speeds.

:shrug:


So why does Lou Thesz win? Because it's an iron man match. Austin can't brawl for that long and he can't use weapons. The iron man match will come down to technical prowess and Stone Cold will get fucking massacred. Do the right thing and vote for Lou Thesz.

And until the end of the post, you argue this as if it is a shoot, not a work. If Austin can draw more money, then the promoter is going to find a way for him to go over...plain and simple. If you can argue that Lou Thesz had a greater cultural significance than did Stone Cold Steve Austin...then I'll concede. But this is all bullshit like it's an actual sport, bro.
 
No matter how one sided either side makes it out to be, I don't think it's nearly so cut-and-dry. Both men have lost to lesser men than each other throughout their careers and in their primes even, so I wouldn't call it a wash by any means one way or the other. The big argument seems to be that Thesz is just such a great technical wrestler that he wipes the floor with Steve Austin. Well I say if his technical wrestling is so great that the strengths of his opponents amount to nothing, no matter who it is or what they've done as it's been presented, than get it over with and crown him the champion of the tournament because the argument isn't going to change with stipulation as it's stayed the same the whole time "He'll out-wrestle (insert opponent) all day".

I find it an especially troubling assertion against the likes of someone who has earned and enjoys the status and accomplishments of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Are we to seriously believe that Austin is just helpless against the devices of Lou Thesz simply because of Thesz's style? That's a tough sell if you ask me. I simply refuse to believe that this is such a one sided affair as some people make it out to be, regardless of the stipulation. Austin shared his wins and losses with basically everyone he faced, that was the nature of the era he ushered in and became the figurehead of. I don't see it as a crux against him, anymore than Lou Thesz's popularity and successes being a great argument in his favor as that too is a reflection of the times he wrestled in.

For all his faults, Austin never had too much trouble kicking ass against anyone he ever faced. He didn't always win, but did always kick peoples asses, regardless of their style. Lou Thesz was very popular in his day, but he lost quite a few matches as well. He wasn't unstoppable, he wasn't unbeatable, he held a lot of titles, but lost them a lot too. This guy isn't an untouchable. Not to take anything away from him, but I think he's been greatly over hyped, and his ability has been greatly embellished. Austin stands every bit as good a chance of winning as does Thesz. His style may not have been fastidiously technical, but it was effective. He's wrestled for long periods of time, he's beat technical wrestlers before, and he was as big in his stint as anyone has ever been in wrestling.

I don't care for the arguments about his neck and knees either, at a certain point that became an issue, but earlier on in his heyday he didn't have knee braces and hadn't suffered the neck injury. Of course this is also before he ever won a world title as well, but was also part of his rise to fame. I'd also like to note that while SCSA probably lost more than Thesz, after doing some research to refresh my memory, I've re-discovered that most of Austin's losses have come by way of interference, and that wouldn't be an issue here meaning his odds increase again.

I mean, he's beat Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, he beat Jericho and Benoit in a triple threat which ought to do him justice in here, he also beat Kurt Angle and RVD in a triple threat to win the WWE Championship which should also do him credit here since in both of the previously mentioned scenarios he had more than one opponent in both scenarios, and at least one of them were guys who were technical wrestlers that he beat. He beat Kurt Angle straight up on Raw to earn a title shot against Jericho, add to that list Big Show and Ric Flair in another triple threat match, and he also beat Owen Hart who was a great technician as well.

I bring up all these victories not only to show that Austin has beat the best, but that in situation pitting the odds against him he has found a way to win, even against guys who were better technical wrestlers. I don't see why or how a star of his magnitude, whose enjoyed his degree of success and had such an impact on the business loses this match so handedly or at all. The Stunner comes from out of nowhere and almost always leads to a pinfall thereafter, how many of those do you suppose he can hit in 60 minutes? Probably enough to win the match at least. Also, if you look at Thesz's actual set of moves, it's nothing spectacular that Austin can't deal with. Go look and see, he'd have a hard time with a wild man like Austin, trying to get so technical, and don't forget that physically Austin is arguably stronger, meaning he can power out of moves and holds, much like he almost did with Bret Hart. One could argue that had he not sustained so much damage prior to being put in the Sharpshooter he would have actually broke it.

This also brings me to my last point. Bret Hart is the only guy to best Austin on every occasion in which they met, he brutalized him, out-wrestled him, brawled toe-to-tow with him, and gave him the worst beating anyone ever gave him. That's Bret Hart though, and he had the sharpshooter, which Thesz doesn't have. Angle had the Ankle Lock, which Thesz doesn't have. Benoit had the crossface, which Thesz doesn't have. All the tools that technical guys had who beat Austin are devoid from Thesz arsenal. His style is simply too old school to measure up, as his style is something from another time that may have cut it then, but does not against wrestlers of newer generations who have faced much more evolved styles in the ring. Sorry Lou, that's the bottom line cause' Stone Cold Said So!
 
Nobody has been advancing the argument that Lou Thesz was going to turn this into a shoot fight. I mean, he could have done, and would utterly destroy Steve Austin in a few minutes, but nobody is arguing that as the reason why he goes over. /QUOTE]

I think you're rather delusional here. For starters you're making a very convoluted suggestion that has no factual base to make said suggestion. Second, Thesz was a professional wrestler, and while he was a hooker, that doesn't speak to any credibility in a shoot that amounts to a real fight against Steve Austin.

Seventy two people have voted Thesz as the greater wrestler because, amongst other things, he was the greater professional wrestler.

Based on what? That he wrestled a more technical style all through his career? Steve Austin wrestled a technical style at one point too, your point? Styles don't make people better, they just appeal to people differently, kind of how Thesz style apparently appeals to you more than most others.


He was more significant

Not true. Austin changed the business and brought it into an entirely new era based solely around him. He became the biggest star arguably in history, and he carried the company for years. You can argue that there were other stars like Triple H and The Rock, but he was the top face of the company all through the Attitude Era, and everyone knew that.

more dominant

Highly unlikely. I actually addressed this already. Thesz won a ton of titles throughout his career, but he lost them just as frequently. Look at the length of his reigns with all the different titles he held. Rarely did those reigns last all that long which completely destroys your big dominance argument. He had one long run as champion where he tried to unify all titles with the NWA belt and didn't succeed but with a few minor territorial titles. Stone Cold on the other hand was so dominant that the majority of the time if people wanted to beat them they had to use absurd amounts of interference and seldom did he lose one on one, that's a fact Jack, and you can look all that up too.

better draw in relation to his time period

Not so. Austin was THEE biggest draw in wrestling by measures of both ticket sales and merchandise all the way until after he was officially gone from the WWE in 2002. He almost single handedly lifted the WWE out of the red and into the lead of the Monday Night Wars, generated the highest WrestleMania buy rates up to that point and for years to come, and most importantly he did it all with ONE company, not globetrotting for the NWA and wrestling in as many promotions as possible. It should also be noted that Lou Thesz wasn't a mega-star everywhere he went, the different territories all had their different preferences, and he wasn't the only one. Buddy Rogers was every bit as popular as he was and there were plenty others at his time who shared as much fanfare and respect in the industry as he did. Besides, once Bruno Sammartino came around, HE was the biggest draw in wrestling above everybody else.

he achieved more and left a greater legacy

He achieved more because he collected scrap belts from every territory he went to, that's the simple truth. Now you could argue that he got all those belts because he was so damn great and all that, and true, he was a big star at the time, but quantity doesn't equal quality. It think it's very arguable to that he left a "Greater" legacy either when you look at the impact Stone Cold had on the business in comparison. Just about anyone you ask will know who Stone Cold Steve Austin is, and when asked who Lou Thesz is most will not know, what a legacy huh? So great it's largely forgotten unless an on their knees fanboy like yourself comes and gives a proverbial public display of ******io for one of the relics of yesteryear, romanticizing about how great and unstoppable they were in a ridiculous display of puffery the likes of which is rarely seen these days. Congratulations on that.

He was also a few hundred times better suited for the match type in question given his superior conditioning, experience in multi fall matches and lack of crippled limbs.


That's just like, your opinion man(ala the dude, who abides). Considering all the advances in everything surrounding strength and conditioning, as well as the advances in professional wrestling itself that's a rather bold claim to make. Now I know you're going to go on about how Lou Thesz regularly wrestled 60 minute plus matches, but at what kind of pace? You think he could maintain the pace of a Stone Cold Steve Austin for 60 minutes? Not a chance, but Stone Cold can. You think he'd be able to go in an iron man match at the pace Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart can go? Not likely at all.

BTW, back in those days it was commonplace for title matches to be 2 of 3 falls, but again, that was a completely different style and brand of wrestling. Now I have to uphold my own precedent here that a different style isn't necessarily a better one, but in this case the style wrestled by the more modern wrestlers in far superior and much more demanding than those of wrestlers past from the era's of guys like Lou Thesz, that's why they were able to wrestle into their 60's and 70's, because they style they wrestled wasn't nearly as taxing. Disagree all you want, the facts say otherwise.

So sure, Thesz has more experience in that type of match, but the stylistic clash puts him out of his element against someone like Steve Austin. He might be able to figure it out, but will he do it before he's stunned out of his boots? Not likely, considering the thunder Steve Austin will bring out of the gate and for the majority of the match which would safely secure the victory for him as he was able to get pinfall after pinfall, from stunner after stunner before the half way point is even reached.
 
But as Slyfox stated, we're supposed to treat this entirely in kayfabe, as if it were a real competition....

I don't recall this post, but if you'd like to quote it somewhere...go for it. What I do remember is KB posting this:

What I'm saying is that the general consensus seems to be that this tournament was much better when it was about who the greatest wrestler of all time was, not who the most popular one was.

KB's "rule change in voting" really doesn't change things, as he said nothing about voting in "kayfabe." He suggested that the greatest wrestler of all-time should win...not the most popular. Thus, I'm going to vote from the perspective of what wrestling really is...a work.

That being said, Steve Austin is still the better choice over Lou Thesz. Why? Because being a great professional wrestler has very little to do with how well you can crawl around on a mat doing armbars. Ultimately, it's about drawing money, and frankly...popularity is quite a contributing factor.

Steve Austin going over Thesz would draw more money than vice-versa based even on the comparison of the eras. Steve Austin went mainstream and in order to keep him at a mainstream status and wanting folks to tune in to rest of the tournament, they would have him go over. And if Thesz wanted to work in future tournaments, he would do the job.
 
If you look at this argument beyond the loyalties and opinions of who could win this or make this the bigger fight and just look at this as a business deal, the answer is Austin.

Austin can bring in more money.

Austin has.

Austin has shown that he is adaptable and is willing to constantly change himself or his image to stay relevant.

And he has.

He knows how to play a crowd and they love him for it.

And that is where the money is at. That is where the decision will be made.
 
If you look at this argument beyond the loyalties and opinions of who could win this or make this the bigger fight and just look at this as a business deal, the answer is Austin.

Austin can bring in more money.

Austin has.

Austin has shown that he is adaptable and is willing to constantly change himself or his image to stay relevant.

And he has.

He knows how to play a crowd and they love him for it.

And that is where the money is at. That is where the decision will be made.

What in the name of everything that is good has this to do with an Iron Man Match? You want to get Stone Cold through, how about arguing how he beats Lou Thesz in this style of match. If the WZ Tournament was solely on who the biggest draw is, why would the organizers bother with stipulations in the first place?
 
What in the name of everything that is good has this to do with an Iron Man Match? You want to get Stone Cold through, how about arguing how he beats Lou Thesz in this style of match. If the WZ Tournament was solely on who the biggest draw is, why would the organizers bother with stipulations in the first place?
There's a reason he has 6 posts and is a member of the JOB SQUAD, my friend.
At any rate, none of those arguments have anything to do with it. If this were all about money, several people that are still left wouldn't be on here.
Problem is, it is about in-ring performance and how the wrestler can use the match stipulation in respect to his opponent. Looking for the best wrestler, not (as FitFinlay said) the biggest draw. That is totally irrelevant.
 
Just in case this goes to a tie, I want it to be known that this post is my write-in vote for Lou Thesz. Frankly, Gelgarin's spin-job has done more to convince me of him being the right choice than any of the BS arguments coming from the other side. Heck, I was a fan through Austin's heyday. If I wanted to say something in Austin's defence, I would. But Gelgarin's alleged BS holds up against most reasonable arguments for the Rattlesnake. It's gotta be Thesz.

So yes, this is a vote made in ignorance. But it doesn't even begin counter the large contingent of ignorance on the part of Austin supporters. So I can live with it.
 

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