WCW La, Round 1, Match 7: #11 Jeff Jarrett vs. #54 El Canek

[Shocky]

The UWA was not the #2 Promotion in Mexico, it was #3, and that's generous. AAA and CMLL have a lot to say about the UWA being a top promotion in the country. UWA was the Original ECW or ROH at best. You can't blame Jarrett for the fall of WCW, and then defend the UWA where El Canek was a figure head in the company throughout it's entire existance. If anyone man is to blame fora companies failure, it's the guy that was with the company during it's entire existence, not the guy that signed up 18 months before it went belly up.

New Japan currently has a talent exchange with TNA today. The day of talent exchanges between major companies are long over, and it very rarely happens, and when it does, it's hardly causes the commotion that it once did. The culture of the business has changed in the last 30 years. Those dream matches don't happen because the territories are dead. Guys like Carlos Colon and hte like have unrecognized NWA title reigns. It happened often in those days where guys would be the head of their territory, and get wins over the big stars that came there. Jarrett can't be faulted because that system doesn't exist today anymore.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Shocky:

1. UWA = #2 in Mexico, behind AAA, just ahead of CMLL, which also folded into a new promoion later, as Tastycles mentioned.

2. I don't blame Jarrett exclusively. But when I started that thread last month "bigger clusterfuck, Survivor Series '97 or Bash at the Beach '00," you and most others said the Jarrett laydown and the Jarrett / Russo swerve was. And Jarrett was made the champ by the booking team, and Hogan was never seen on TV again. You wanna tell me that had NOTHING to do with it?

3. UWA's challenge was the Mexican economy. Jarrett helped drive WCW into the ground despite BILLIONS from Turner, 4 hours each week on prime time, and 12-13 PPV's a year. Canek didn't have NEARLY the resources Jarrett did, and was still far more successful, and for longer.

4. Did Jarrett have a shortage of big stars in WCW? No. And he still messed it all up.

 

[Gelgarin]

For a start, it should be noted that Canek was pretty much a flop in America. He left the UWA to try his hand wrestling in the states, and lasted the entirety of three weeks. He's also far, far less of a star in Japan than you're making out Irish. He toured the country a fair bit, but so did every Mexican wrester of that era. You could make ten times the money overseas. Canek never had any significant success in Japan, whilst fellow athletes such Mil Mascaras accomplished considerably more.

I'd also like to question the claim that Canek was "hand picked" by Thesz to be a champion. I've been trawling through the archives of everything the man's ever said, and the only reference to Canek I've been able to find was the statment;

“I had many good matches with Canek in South America"

if there's some source that I've missed out on where Thesz talks at further length about Mexico then please direct me, but right now I can see no evidence that Thesz was doing anything more than business by dropping the belt to Canek. It'd be nice to think that it was the Dozan situation over again (and it is worth noticing that Cenek started drawing twice as much as a main eventer after Thesz put him over), but if Lou Thesz was choosing the man he was going to put over, I rather think he'd have selected Mil Mascaras, a man he had far more positive comments to make about.

I'm not a fan of Canek. I think he was a one trick pony who did the same thing for twenty years. His only appeal coming from the endless string of international stars who came over for a pay check. He himself is not an international star. To be an international star you have to be relevant internationally, and Canek isn't significant outside of Mexico.

That being said, I have to vote for Canek in this match, mostly because of the argument put forward by Tastycles. Double J is exactly the type of opponent Canek specialised in defeating. Put him against someone faster, or more technically skilled, and Canek was a lumbering duck out of water, but this match is tailor made for him.

Canek is stronger, gives nothing up in speed or technique, the crowd balances out, and I don't give a shit about title reigns. So I vote Canek.

 

[Shocky]

1. Was #2, maybe. It's defunct as well. I still argue that CMLL was a bigger federation, but I think it's going to take this waaaay off topic, and probably a good thread for the General Thread.

2. Without a doubt the Bash at the Beach thing was a bigger clusterfuck, but that had more to do with Russo and Hogan, and Jarrett just happened to be the guy that had to do the job. Double J is no different then Shawn Michaels in this situation. Two guys asked to do a job while the ego's had their problem. The problem, McMahon had an endgame, Russo was going for shock, and it bit him on the ass.

3. The American Economy isn't the greatest right now, but TNA is growing. I know you think that TNA has grown simply because Jarrett got out of the way, but Jarrett just last week was apart of the highest rated Impact ever, and their highest rated segment ever. Jeff Jarrett in his main event run was a part of a completely different WCW then a few years earlier. Turner was a wrestling guy, but the second he merged with Time Warner was the death nail for that company. Time Warner was hell bent on getting wrestling off of TNT, again, probably off topic, but Jarrett didn't get the benefit of that WCW. WCW in 1999 was not the WCW of 1996. Other guys had damaged the company long before Jarrett got their again.

4. What's the definition of Big Star? Again, guys like Savage were gone, Flair, part time, at best. Hart, injured, Goldberg, Injured. Hogan, on again, off again. Sting, sure, but he was stuck in the quagmire of a stupid heel turn that didn't work, and then a worthless feud with Vampiro. DDP was coming off of a bad heel turn as well. Guys like Booker T, and Scott Steiner weren't there yet. Essentially, WCW was a giant cluster fuck of wasted talent and bad storylines when Jarrett showed up right in the middle of it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I don't care if the UWA was the number one promotion in the universe or was just El Canek sitting in his living room, drinking a beer. I don't care if Hulk Hogan says El Canek gave him the best night of his life. I don't care if the original ending for King Kong was El Canek body-slamming him off the Empire State Building. I don't care if El Canek never got favourable booking and had to resort to legitimately knocking his opponents unconscious to win matches. It's got nothing to do with how he'd do in a match in against Jeff Jarrett.

Fact of the matter is, wrestling isn't one big game of Top Trumps. El Canek is possibly the least impressive wrestler I have ever watched. He's slow, he's cumbersome, but yeah, he's surprisingly strong. One second you're saying he'll overpower Jarrett the entire match, next you're saying all he does is get up at the end and win.

At the end of the night, he'll be picking pieces of guitar out of his... er, mask.

 

[Shock]

Canek has the power, yes. Canek has the renown, yes. Canek has the technicality, yes. But Jeff Jarrett has some good power (not as good as Canek's, but still). Jarrett has the same, if not more, renown than Canek. Jarrett has great technicality. But Jarrett also has speed. Speed is useful against someone like Canek.

Also, I'm gonna use the same point people used against Danielson when they supported Cena. Because Jarrett has been big in some of the biggest wrestling companies ever, he's instantly better than Canek, who hasn't. Simple as that. I hate that idea, but I needed something good and I'm pissed at Cena marks saying that and I carried it here.

Jarrett will win.

 

[Theo Mays]

Looks like we got some lobbying for both sides going on here. I was split between the two when I came in here, but after reading some of it, I gotta go with Jarrett. He is a main eventer who doesn't get the credit main eventers get. Should be a good fight, but I got double J in a close one.

 

[jmt225]

I am a big fan of Jeff Jarrett; have been since his first WWF run, so I won't bash him. The man was/is a great professional wrestler and has done a lot for the sport. But, with that said, he should not advance here. Why? Well, let's see... first of all, he'll just go on to lose to a worse and way more undeserving talent either next round or the round after that, and because he has already advanced, I'm sure, in this tournament in previous years and will advance in years to come. However, I'm sure this is the first year El Canek has gotten any love in this tournament, and it'll probably be the last (but hopefully not). The fact is, the guy just deserves to move ahead to round 2, not just for this reason, but other logical ones as well.

Now, looking at this kayfabe wise, there is no reason to believe that El Canek could not defeat Jeff Jarrett in WCW. Sure, Jarrett had a nice little run, but if you look at the guys he has beaten and the guys he has lost to... his time in WCW was VERY inconsistent. Also, they're facing off in Los Angeles... where the Hispanic population is huge and if a heel Jarrett faced off against El Canek in that city as the match says... then the crowd will HEAVILY favor El Canek, without a doubt. To me, in this setting, there is more of a chance of El Canek winning then Jarrett. In fact, let's just look at the names Canek has defeated in the past:

Hulk Hogan
Andre the Giant
Antonio Inoki
Riki Choshu
Vader

And there are plenty more, but that's the cream of the crop. Jarrett would NEVER defeat a Hulk Hogan, unless there's a ******ed "work-shoot" going on and Hogan lays down like a jackass. Jarrett would NEVER defeat Andre the Giant. He would NEVER defeat Anotonio Inoki. And he also would NEVER defeat Vader. And not only would he not defeat these names in a pro wrestling match, he also would not defeat them in this very tournament... so why should Jarrett defeat someone who has defeated all these names Jarrett would never stand a chance of beating in a million fucking years, no matter what ring they were in?

As far as who's contributed more to the sport, well, that is kind of debatable, so there's no point to go there. I understand both arguments there, but I could never understand how anyone could dream of Jarrett defeating this man, when Jarrett has so many ridiculous losses under his belt and El Canek has so many incredible wins. Plus, you add in to what I said at the beginning of my post (though I'm sure some of you will find it irrelevant)…. unless you're just some humongous, die-hard Jeff Jarrett fan, I would never be able to understand how there's any reason whatsoever to vote for Jarrett in this thing. No reason.

 

[Uncle Sam]

The man was/is a great professional wrestler and has done a lot for the sport. But, with that said, he should not advance here. Why? Well, let's see... first of all, he'll just go on to lose to a worse and way more undeserving talent either next round or the round after that, and because he has already advanced, I'm sure, in this tournament in previous years and will advance in years to come.

Terrible reason. First off, Jarrett has always gone out early. It's because the IWC produces more hatred for him than Will does semen.

However, I'm sure this is the first year El Canek has gotten any love in this tournament, and it'll probably be the last (but hopefully not). The fact is, the guy just deserves to move ahead to round 2,

So... a pity vote? Because that's just what you described.

Now, looking at this kayfabe wise, there is no reason to believe that El Canek could not defeat Jeff Jarrett in WCW.

However, there are better arguments for the very opposite. One of them is already in that quote.

Sure, Jarrett had a nice little run, but if you look at the guys he has beaten and the guys he has lost to... his time in WCW was VERY inconsistent.

You'll find it hard finding people that consistently win. It's normally only the John Cenas and Hulk Hogans of this world. Steve Austin and The Rock didn't even get the privilege of constant wins. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Austin lost more matches than he won.

Also, they're facing off in Los Angeles... where the Hispanic population is huge and if a heel Jarrett faced off against El Canek in that city as the match says... then the crowd will HEAVILY favor El Canek, without a doubt.

Yes, a heel Jeff Jarrett. Heel's aren't the guys that feed of the crowd's love, but the crowd's hatred, remember.

In fact, let's just look at the names Canek has defeated in the past:

Hulk Hogan
Andre the Giant
Antonio Inoki
Riki Choshu
Vader

I'd have to track them down, but I'm sure they were all fairly meaningless... to western fans anyway. Were these guys in their primes when El Canek defeated them? I put it to you that they were not, else El Canek would have not defeated them.

And there are plenty more, but that's the cream of the crop. Jarrett would NEVER defeat a Hulk Hogan, unless there's a ******ed "work-shoot" going on and Hogan lays down like a jackass.

I'm trying to understand this. You seem to be simultaneously implying that Hogan only beat Jarrett because he laid down, but that Jarrett could only beat Hogan if Hogan laid down. I'm confused.

Jarrett would NEVER defeat Andre the Giant.

He might have. Anyway, it's irrelevant.

He would NEVER defeat Anotonio Inoki.

He probably could.

And he also would NEVER defeat Vader.

Edge beat Vader.

And not only would he not defeat these names in a pro wrestling match, he also would not defeat them in this very tournament...

Probably not, due to this crazy new breed of literate smarks.

so why should Jarrett defeat someone who has defeated all these names Jarrett would never stand a chance of beating in a million fucking years, no matter what ring they were in?

Because Jarrett's better than El Canek. Wrestling's more a game of rock/paper/scissors than Top Trumps. By that I mean, previous wins don't factor in unless they both directly met in a one-on-one match during their primes.

Shawn Michaels and The Undertaker did, arguably. Of course, that was complicated by Michaels getting the win after having the living shit kicked out of him.

As far as who's contributed more to the sport,

Irrelevant.

I understand both arguments there, but I could never understand how anyone could dream of Jarrett defeating this man, when Jarrett has so many ridiculous losses under his belt and El Canek has so many incredible wins.

Because the more the odds Jarrett has stacked on top of him, the better he performs. Think John Cena. Though I still don't count this as "stacking the odds". I count this as a "warm-up match where Jarrett would pick up the win within four minutes, much to the crowd's disappointment."

I would never be able to understand how there's any reason whatsoever to vote for Jarrett in this thing. No reason.

You should read the last three pages.

 

[Tastycles]

Canek has the power, yes. Canek has the renown, yes. Canek has the technicality, yes. But Jeff Jarrett has some good power (not as good as Canek's, but still). Jarrett has the same, if not more, renown than Canek. Jarrett has great technicality. But Jarrett also has speed. Speed is useful against someone like Canek.

Speed is useful, and I'm not arguing that Jarrett isn't a solid all rounder, but he does not have enough pace, nor is he Van Vader, so he pretty much cannot beat Canek, as they ar the only people who ever have.

Also, I'm gonna use the same point people used against Danielson when they supported Cena. Because Jarrett has been big in some of the biggest wrestling companies ever, he's instantly better than Canek, who hasn't. Simple as that. I hate that idea, but I needed something good and I'm pissed at Cena marks saying that and I carried it here.

While I also use arguments I hate from timt to time, you shouldn't use this one here. Danielson is in a promotion that nobody watches, Cena is in movie theatres. Here, Jarrett's prime was in TNA when hardly anybody watched it. Canek may not have had TV deals in America, but amongst Hispanics, who make up for 46.5% of the audience in Los Angeles, he is far more important and relevant than a dying promotion or one that gets ratings of 1.0.

Jarrett will win.

He probably will, but he shouldn't.

I don't care if the UWA was the number one promotion in the universe or was just El Canek sitting in his living room, drinking a beer. I don't care if Hulk Hogan says El Canek gave him the best night of his life. I don't care if the original ending for King Kong was El Canek body-slamming him off the Empire State Building. I don't care if El Canek never got favourable booking and had to resort to legitimately knocking his opponents unconscious to win matches. It's got nothing to do with how he'd do in a match in against Jeff Jarrett.

This made me laugh.

Fact of the matter is, wrestling isn't one big game of Top Trumps. El Canek is possibly the least impressive wrestler I have ever watched. He's slow, he's cumbersome, but yeah, he's surprisingly strong. One second you're saying he'll overpower Jarrett the entire match, next you're saying all he does is get up at the end and win.

So, essentially you've given up attacking Canek, and have gone for IC instead, well played Samfox. Wrestling may not be top trumps, but it is hard to compare wrestlers from two different eras except by comparing who they have beaten. Canek's resume is far more impressive, and the way he wins matches is quite irrelevant. This is how it'd pan out though: back and forth, Jarrett goes for the stroke, Canek pushes him away, off the ropes, leg lariat, senton, pin, 1.2. Jarrett kicks out, Picks him up Gorilla Press backbreaker, Canek wins.

At the end of the night, he'll be picking pieces of guitar out of his... er, mask.

After Canek has seen his arse because he lost.

1. Was #2, maybe. It's defunct as well. I still argue that CMLL was a bigger federation, but I think it's going to take this waaaay off topic, and probably a good thread for the General Thread.

History of Mexican promotions in a nutshell:

1933-76 EMLL on it's own for years
1976 - UWA comes along, Canek champion
They are of similar popularity for a couple of years in the 80s.
Late 80s - EMLL is slightly on top
1991- AAA born, grows
1991- EMLL becomes CMLL and more popular
1992-4UWA declines, AAA gets bigger than it
1995- UWA closes.

2. Without a doubt the Bash at the Beach thing was a bigger clusterfuck, but that had more to do with Russo and Hogan, and Jarrett just happened to be the guy that had to do the job. Double J is no different then Shawn Michaels in this situation. Two guys asked to do a job while the ego's had their problem. The problem, McMahon had an endgame, Russo was going for shock, and it bit him on the ass.

I don't think you can blame Jarrett for this, but you have to think that it does show the kind of piece of shit company he was a big deal in.

3. The American Economy isn't the greatest right now, but TNA is growing. I know you think that TNA has grown simply because Jarrett got out of the way, but Jarrett just last week was apart of the highest rated Impact ever, and their highest rated segment ever. Jeff Jarrett in his main event run was a part of a completely different WCW then a few years earlier. Turner was a wrestling guy, but the second he merged with Time Warner was the death nail for that company. Time Warner was hell bent on getting wrestling off of TNT, again, probably off topic, but Jarrett didn't get the benefit of that WCW. WCW in 1999 was not the WCW of 1996. Other guys had damaged the company long before Jarrett got their again.

Jarrett may be popular, but I think the success of TNA lies squarely with its recruitment of Angle. People have always identified with him and Sting. Jarrett is clever enough to put himself with these kinds of guys, so of course he is going to look good. In the causual fan's eyes Jarrett is the mid carder from the late 90s WWF, because that's where most people saw him.

4. What's the definition of Big Star? Again, guys like Savage were gone, Flair, part time, at best. Hart, injured, Goldberg, Injured. Hogan, on again, off again. Sting, sure, but he was stuck in the quagmire of a stupid heel turn that didn't work, and then a worthless feud with Vampiro. DDP was coming off of a bad heel turn as well. Guys like Booker T, and Scott Steiner weren't there yet. Essentially, WCW was a giant cluster fuck of wasted talent and bad storylines when Jarrett showed up right in the middle of it.

Yes, I agree, I think I may have cpied the wrong post though, because I don't have anything really to add. All I can say is that Jarrett was top of TNA when they're other top commodities included K-Kwik and he was top of WCW when it was fucked. He has never really carried a promotion in the best of times, and I'd argue Canek has.

For me this argument is essentially down to one thing, is Jarrett fast enough to beat Canek. In my opinion I've never seen anything to suggest he is, so I have to hink he'd lose.

 

[D-Man]

I agree 100% with IC25. Jarrett is a product of opportunity and favoritive booking. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a beer with the guy. But, he is extremely overrated. Yes, he can wrestle, but he'll never be truly remembered for anything except being the owner of TNA.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you've been hired by the WWE at one point and have been to the top of their mountain, you really aren't as good as everyone thinks you are. He was WCW champion for a short while... big whoopie. Intercontinental and tag team champion with the WWE... great. And TNA champion... should we even COUNT this one?? But his resume PALES in comparison to El Canek.

Lastly, I just want to point out to everyone, one of the rules to this forum asked everyone to only vote in matches where you're familiar with BOTH competitors. I have a feeling that a lot of people don't know El Canek, and that's ok. But voting for Jarrett when you don't even know who he's up against is flat-out unfair. El Canek is simply a Mexican legend while Jarrett was a flash-in-the-pan in every organization that he was involved in.

Please choose your votes CAREFULLY with this one...

 

[Uncle Sam]

I agree 100% with IC25.

Well there's a surprise.

Jarrett is a product of opportunity and favoritive booking.

Kayfabe.

Wait, wait. Who isn't a product of opportunity and favouritive booking? No, seriously.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a beer with the guy.

Well there's a surprise. I actually mean that. I never got that "I'd want to have a beer with this guy" vibe from him. Don't get me wrong, if he invited me out for a night...

But, he is extremely overrated.

If Jeff Jarrett is overrated, then he must be truly, truly terrible. He's really quite good, but only about 10% of wrestling fans recognise him as such. He's underrated.

Yes, he can wrestle,

Yes. Yes, he can.

but he'll never be truly remembered for anything except being the owner of TNA.

1) He owns 40%
2) He'll be remembered as the guy who dominated TNA.
3) Also, as the guy who laid down for Hogan.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you've been hired by the WWE at one point and have been to the top of their mountain, you really aren't as good as everyone thinks you are.

I was going to post a picture of Sting here. Then I realised something.

He was WCW champion for a short while... big whoopie.

A four time WCW champion.

And TNA champion... should we even COUNT this one??

Definitely. He bitch-slapped a lot of people to keep that belt.

But his resume PALES in comparison to El Canek.

Accolades aren't proportional to success or skill though, as I've been saying all along. Besides, people still don't have a clue what the UWA championship actually meant.

Lastly, I just want to point out to everyone, one of the rules to this forum asked everyone to only vote in matches where you're familiar with BOTH competitors. I have a feeling that a lot of people don't know El Canek, and that's ok. But voting for Jarrett when you don't even know who he's up against is flat-out unfair.

You really need to point this out the other way around.

"Grr, I hate Jarrett. Who's that he's up against? El who? I can't possibly vote for... but wait, some people are making arguments for him! Finally, an excuse to vote against Jarrett!"

El Canek is simply a Mexican legend while Jarrett was a flash-in-the-pan in every organization that he was involved in.

And that's why he's not still around today, putting on consistently the best matches the United States' second biggest wrestling promotion has to offer. He's definitely not doing that.

Please choose your votes CAREFULLY with this one...

And don't just vote for who IC's backing.

 

[D-Man]

First of all, if you're insinuating that I'm a puppet of IC25, then you're just looking for an excuse to fight someone. If you're that bored with your life, start collecting some stamps or something. But don't start writing checks your mouth can't cash.

Secondly, I'm not going to sit here and break down every single sentence of your previous post to make a point. Reading that last post was 3 wasted minutes of my life that I'm never going to get back.

Getting back to my comment about being at the top of WWE, I will repeat it again (hopefully you'll READ it this time): "As far as I'm concerned, unless you've been hired by the WWE at one point AND have been to the top of their mountain, you really aren't as good as everyone thinks you are." In other words, if you never worked for them, then it is what it is. But, if you actually DID work for them and you failed at making something of yourself in their company, then you're not as good as you think. Sting never worked for them. Canek never worked for them. Jarrett worked for them and went nowhere special. Get it now??

Getting back to Jarrett being TNA champion, when you say he "bitch-slapped a lot of people to keep that belt," isnt that the kayfabe you were just talking about?? I'm sorry, but being TNA champion will never be as meaningful as you think or want it to be until TNA becomes a true player in the wrestling market. ANYONE can build a wrestling promotion and write themself into being their champion. Verne Gagne, anyone?? The AWA championship didn't start meaning anything to anyone until the AWA became a staple in the wrestling industry. Now, Verne Gagne is a legend. The same may be said for Jarrett, but only time will tell...

Now, I will point out that I am a FAN of Jeff Jarrett. I always thought he was charismatic and well-skilled in the ring. I never said I "hate" him... I just said he was overrated. Is that such a sin in Uncle Sam's heaven?? If you don't like my opinion, then do yourself two favors... don't read it and piss off.

El Canek did more for the sport/spectacle than Jarrett, and he did it in a country WITHOUT national television contract.

(I apologize to admin if this message was considered "flaming." But, if it was, read what I'm replying to and THEN decide.)

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Well there's a surprise.

He and I agree on some wrestling points. What, because he's a friend of mine you expect him to disagree with me 100% just to keep an air of non-collusion? Don't be ridiculous. If he disagreed with me 10 times, and the 11th time we agreed, you'd have the same reaction.

Kayfabe.

Wait, wait. Who isn't a product of opportunity and favouritive booking? No, seriously.

Sam, the point is that Jeff Jarrett isn't worth SHIT in a kayfabe situation. He's actually quite worthless in a kayfabe situation. And that is why fans didn't buy into him as a champion.

And yes, Sam, everyone is the product of favorable booking, but here is the difference - guys like Hogan, Andre, Vader, Yokozuna, Canek, Inoki, Triple H, etc. got that favorable booking based off of their talents, kayfabe believability, etc. Jarrett was successful almost exclusively due to his booking influence. Take the booking away from Hogan, HHH, etc. and you've still got a believable character who could kick a lot of ass.

And you wanna talk Kayfabe? El Canek is as quick as Jarrett is, and is 3x stronger and has 15 years more experience. El Canek has beaten guys Jarrett would never be put in the ring with.

Well there's a surprise. I actually mean that. I never got that "I'd want to have a beer with this guy" vibe from him. Don't get me wrong, if he invited me out for a night...

...???

Well, Jarrett is a likeable guy. Hell, he's probably mad cool in real life. But for our purposes, as cool as he may be, he can be cool after the match telling fans how honored he felt to have wrestled and been beaten by a legend like El Canek.

If Jeff Jarrett is overrated, then he must be truly, truly terrible. He's really quite good, but only about 10% of wrestling fans recognise him as such. He's underrated.

Wrong again. Myself, Tastycles, etc. have all said that Jarrett is very good. He is, no question. He's good in a way that Curt Henning was good - terrific mid-card champion, skilled athlete, good wrestler.

I've never said that Jarrett was terrible. He's very good.

But Canek is, again, a legend. He's better than very good, he's great. Jarrett's never successfully carried a company, but Canek helped carry a country.

1) He owns 40%
2) He'll be remembered as the guy who dominated TNA.
3) Also, as the guy who laid down for Hogan.

1) 40% ownership is only 11% away from having total control, since 51% is the point at which nobody can overrule you.

2) No, he didn't. He was champion, but he didn't dominate it. FAR more people will remember TNA being "dominated" by Angle, Sting, Styles, and even Samoa Joe. Jarrett's TNA legacy will be as the visionary who took a risk that paid off, but still couldn't get out of his own way until he had no choice.

3) And then was made paper champion later that night, only to lose a sloppy match to Booker T.

4) He'll also be remembered as the guy who lost the IC Title to Chyna at a pay-per-view.

A four time WCW champion.

1) His first WCW Title was a win over DDP following Vince Russo pressing the all-mighty "reset" button on WCW, vacating all titles. He didn't beat the recognized champion, Sid Vicious. His second title win came when he wrestled the title away from David Arquette. And if you want to discuss USELESS TITLE REIGNS, in May of 2000, the WCW World Title changed hands SIX TIMES! Jarrett won two of them, one of which was beating Ric Flair, who'd won the title earlier in the night. Then the Hogan lay down occured. YEAH, great title reigns, Jeff.

Accolades aren't proportional to success or skill though, as I've been saying all along. Besides, people still don't have a clue what the UWA championship actually meant.

That's the shame of it. This is such an ethnocentric statement.

I need to correct you. People in the US / UK don't realize what the title meant. People in Mexico and Japan did. So just because the UWA info from the 70's - 90's didn't reach the Queen's island means it's worthless? Please...

And that's why he's not still around today, putting on consistently the best matches the United States' second biggest wrestling promotion has to offer. He's definitely not doing that.

He's doing that with guys named Angle, Foley, and Sting. They could get a great match out of Skinner.

And don't just vote for who IC's backing.

This is a bigger bullshit cop out than "people who agree with IC are just kissing his ass." I expect better from you, Sam. My facts are incontrovertable, and if anything, I am behind the 8-ball because of the people who see the poll, see Jarrett's name, recognize it, and clik to vote without reading facts. FTS already admitted to that - so don't go blowing smoke up our asses because someone with whom I am friends happens to agree with me, much the way 19 others have done so far as well.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You could not have picked a worse time to reply to me. I'm really busy now. Oh well, I am one of the world's best putter-offers.

First of all, if you're insinuating that I'm a puppet of IC25,

I'm insinuating that you're one of his real life best friends and so rightfully influenced by him. I'm insinuating that a lot of the voters are puppets of IC25.

then you're just looking for an excuse to fight someone.

Not at all.

If you're that bored with your life, start collecting some stamps or something.

Rare stamps are expensive, man. Much as I like to make out that I'm a big shot, I can't afford to collect 'em. Instead, I post on a wrestling forum. And put off important work.

But don't start writing checks your mouth can't cash.

I don't think that's the saying.

But, the more I think about it, the more I see that you're making yourself look like a total douchebag to everyone, so congratulations.

Not really though, am I?

Secondly, I'm not going to sit here and break down every single sentence of your previous post to make a point.

I call it the SlyFox technique. It saves time.

Reading that last post was 3 wasted minutes of my life that I'm never going to get back.

3 minutes is nothing out of over 31,000 days. No sweat.

Getting back to my comment about being at the top of WWE, I will repeat it again (hopefully you'll READ it this time):

I read it last time. Well, rather I misread it. Silly me.

"As far as I'm concerned, unless you've been hired by the WWE at one point AND have been to the top of their mountain, you really aren't as good as everyone thinks you are."

See, that's still not clear. That's simply because El Canek has done neither. A further sentence clarifying that El Canek is an exception because he has not been hired by the WWE would have, well, clarified it.

In other words, if you never worked for them, then it is what it is.

The last post could have really used this sentence.

Get it now??

I get that two question marks is exceptionally rude.

Getting back to Jarrett being TNA champion, when you say he "bitch-slapped a lot of people to keep that belt," isnt that the kayfabe you were just talking about??

Yes. Now you're missing my point. This is what I believe is called irony. The tournament occurs within kayfabe, and so kayfabe is all that matters. Therefore, booking and its kind don't matter, but just what you see on television at face value.

I'm sorry, but being TNA champion will never be as meaningful as you think or want it to be

Oh, I don't want it to be. That company sucks balls. Luckily, Sting is doing a really good job of devaluing it. Jarrett, however, was an unstoppable, dominant champion that won even with exceptional odds stacked against him, even when the fans started rioting.

until TNA becomes a true player in the wrestling market.

I'd argue that it's already as significant as ECW was. Or, at least, almost as significant. It'll be more remembered than the older promotions too, simply for being newer. I'm getting off the point.

ANYONE can build a wrestling promotion and write themself into being their champion. Verne Gagne, anyone?? The AWA championship didn't start meaning anything to anyone until the AWA became a staple in the wrestling industry. Now, Verne Gagne is a legend.

Hey, TNA's pretty stable and popular at the moment. A shame for wrestling fans everywhere, I assure you.

Now, I will point out that I am a FAN of Jeff Jarrett. I always thought he was charismatic and well-skilled in the ring. I never said I "hate" him... I just said he was overrated.

I wasn't referring to you.

Is that such a sin in Uncle Sam's heaven??

I don't believe in heaven.

If you don't like my opinion, then do yourself two favors... don't read it and piss off.

Debate (American English) or debating (British English) is a formal method of interactive and position representational argument.

El Canek did more for the sport/spectacle than Jarrett,

Perhaps, but that's irrelevant in a tournament setting.

(I apologize to admin if this message was considered "flaming." But, if it was, read what I'm replying to and THEN decide.)

It really was flaming. However, because you're IC25's friend and because I can see how you could grossly misconstrue my post, I'll let it fly.

Edit: Another reply? If I have time, I'll get back to it. Really gotta go do stuff though. Back later. Maybe.

 

[Uncle Sam]

He and I agree on some wrestling points. What, because he's a friend of mine you expect him to disagree with me 100% just to keep an air of non-collusion? Don't be ridiculous. If he disagreed with me 10 times, and the 11th time we agreed, you'd have the same reaction.

Can a guy not make a joke any more? Sweet Buddha.

Sam, the point is that Jeff Jarrett isn't worth SHIT in a kayfabe situation.

I take it that's hyperbole. I assume that because I know you're not stupid.

He's actually quite worthless in a kayfabe situation.

Is this hyperbole again? Or are you comparatively speaking?

And you wanna talk Kayfabe? El Canek is as quick as Jarrett is, and is 3x stronger and has 15 years more experience. El Canek has beaten guys Jarrett would never be put in the ring with.

I doubt El Canek would ever be put in a ring with Booker T. Therefore, the same logic works the other way around.

I'd also say that Canek is slower than Jarrett, not as smart, not as dirty and only 1.5 as strong at the very most. If experience were important, Kurt Angle and Randy Orton wouldn't have careers.

Wrong again. Myself, Tastycles, etc. have all said that Jarrett is very good.

Like I said; about 10%.

Jarrett's never successfully carried a company, but Canek helped carry a country.

Shit, he is strong. Ba dum tish.

1) 40% ownership is only 11% away from having total control, since 51% is the point at which nobody can overrule you.

Yeah, but he doesn't have 51%. He has 40. Why am I arguing this?

2) No, he didn't.

Yes, he did.

He was champion, but he didn't dominate it.

He was the most dominant champion in TNA history. He beat everybody and hung onto that belt for dear life. The only competition is Kurt Angle.

FAR more people will remember TNA being "dominated" by Angle,

This is the only near accurate example here.

Sting, Styles, and even Samoa Joe.

Definitely not.

Jarrett's TNA legacy will be as the visionary who took a risk that paid off, but still couldn't get out of his own way until he had no choice.

He had a choice. He should have stayed on and had a killer feud with Angle. Instead, he chose to come back a couple years later and give Kurt Angle his best matches since he joined TNA.

3) And then was made paper champion later that night, only to lose a sloppy match to Booker T.

You seem to think that I was saying that "laying down to Hulk Hogan" was a good thing. Way to rub salt in the wounds.

I blame Russo.

4) He'll also be remembered as the guy who lost the IC Title to Chyna at a pay-per-view.

I honestly do not remember that. Didn't Jericho do that too? And maybe Eddie Guerrero while we're at it.

That's the shame of it. This is such an ethnocentric statement.

No, it's not. Most of the people reading this don't know what the UWA title meant.

I need to correct you. People in the US / UK don't realize what the title meant.

Precisely.

People in Mexico and Japan did.

Again, precisely.

So just because the UWA info from the 70's - 90's didn't reach the Queen's island means it's worthless? Please...

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

He's doing that with guys named Angle, Foley, and Sting.

Sting makes Kurt Angle look bad. Foley wasn't one of the names I was thinking of and Angle hasn't had a match of that quality since he stepped into the ring with The Undertaker. Then he had three. Counting the one at my house show, of course.

This is a bigger bullshit cop out than "people who agree with IC are just kissing his ass."

It's the same thing, actually.

I expect better from you, Sam.

I don't think you do.

My facts are incontrovertable

They're not. Many of your facts aren't even relevant. The rest are just generally vague statements that are presented in a way that sounds impressive, then just sort of give way when analysed.

The Yokozuna win, for example. Not only did it turn out that Yokozuna was not Yokozuna when it occured, video evidence showed that El Canek was actually slower than the big man and it was only his opponent's sheer stupidty that let him win.

and if anything, I am behind the 8-ball because of the people who see the poll, see Jarrett's name, recognize it, and clik to vote without reading facts.

Not really. People see Jarrett's name, think how much they hate him, and vote the other way. Alternatively, add another step in with "see that IC25 has posted in favour of the other guy."

You know as well as I do that people are swayed by who's on which side. As an admin and someone synonymous with turning the tide with Vader, you don't even need to argue to get people on your side. Say which side you're on and quite a few people will jump to it. It's a compliment.

so don't go blowing smoke up our asses

I have never understood this saying. Does it mean "criticising"?

because someone with whom I am friends happens to agree with me,

People really don't get my jokes. Jake's right about the sarcasm thing.

much the way 19 others have done so far as well.

I'd say 10 or so of them voted using my four step program.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Let's see.

On one hand, you have Jeff Jarrett, a decent worker who would have had his praises sung by the whole of the IWC if he had never been able to break out of the mid-card. Is Jarrett deserving of one or two short title reigns? Yeah, I think so. Was he deserving of the spot his dad gave him in the CWA? No. Was he deserving of the spot Russo gave him in WCW once he jumped ship from the WWF? No. Was he deserving of the spot he gave himself when he founded TNA? No. In the end, when I think of Jarrett, all I think of is someone whose father put a silver spoon in his mouth and who looked for opportunities to overcompensate himself for his work when he found out he didn't have what it took to main-event in the WWF (and don't feed me any rubbish about Austin keeping Jarrett down; Jarrett will never be in Austin's league, not even on his best day).

On the other hand, you have El Canek. I didn't know much about him before this tournament, to be honest, but I was initially impressed when I saw that he cracked the top 100 of PWI's PWI Years list (which came out in 2003). Then, I looked at his matches, and I thought he was all right. Also, I looked at his Wikipedia page, and I had a strong suspicion that it was written by IrishCanadian25, as it is nothing but a two-page promotional/advertisement for the all-great El Canek.

And, I honestly would have rewarded IrishCanadian25's efforts here, but then it came to me that El Canek has a strong resemblance to Villano IV and Villano V. And, even in Jarrett's first stint with WCW, he never would have lost to those jabronis.

Pick: Jarrett

 

[Tastycles]

I doubt El Canek would ever be put in a ring with Booker T. Therefore, the same logic works the other way around.

Does it? Canek fought the Booker T's of the 80s, so I don't see why he wouldn't fight Booker T if he was wrestling now. He fought and beat people like Bad News Brown and Haku, who are essentially the same level performer as Booker T. And Jeff Jarrett.

I'd also say that Canek is slower than Jarrett, not as smart, not as dirty and only 1.5 as strong at the very most. If experience were important, Kurt Angle and Randy Orton wouldn't have careers.

Why would a face be dirty? 1980s Hulk Hogan isn't as dirty as Dolph Ziggler, so I think we can ignore that point. Not as smart? Well you maintain that he outsmarted Yokozuna, who outsmarted Bret Hart with his dust, so Canek seems like a pretty wise one to me. I'm not sure experience is essential, but it is certainly useful in kayfabe. That's why people suss out monster heels and beat them in their second match. Canek has done that sort of thing time and time again, Jarrett hasn't so while not essential, it plays into his hands. Orton got nailed by HHH, and Angle passed out against Tazz because their lack of experience let them down. It makes a difference.

Like I said; about 10%.

You might well be right about this.

Shit, he is strong. Ba dum tish.

The use of "ba dum tish" to show a joke is underused and underrated.

Yeah, but he doesn't have 51%. He has 40. Why am I arguing this?

I don't know. He used to have 100% though, I believe, until Dixie Carter got daddy to buy it for her.

He was the most dominant champion in TNA history. He beat everybody and hung onto that belt for dear life. The only competition is Kurt Angle.

But he was champion pre-Angle, before Samoa Joe was anything big, before Booker T and when Sting was largely part time. Essentially, he dominated the promotion before it went big. Angle has dominated it when it was good. He was on top of WCW when it was shit too. In a thriving company, he is in the top end of the middle. Canek was on top of a fledgling company, then a good company, then a shit one in decline. It was the same one, but he was there throughout that evolution.

He had a choice. He should have stayed on and had a killer feud with Angle. Instead, he chose to come back a couple years later and give Kurt Angle his best matches since he joined TNA.

Not really, Jeff Jarrett had to care for his dying wife. There's nothing wrong with that, obviously, but he didn't have a choice really except be a career wanker or be a human being. He came back after she died, and immediately put himself with the most over person in the company. The only reason he isn't in the main event mafia is because he's not in their league.

You seem to think that I was saying that "laying down to Hulk Hogan" was a good thing. Way to rub salt in the wounds.

I blame Russo.

Yes, Russo is a classic.

I honestly do not remember that. Didn't Jericho do that too? And maybe Eddie Guerrero while we're at it.

It was his last WWF match at No Mercy 1999. Jericho never lost to her, they drew and she won the title off Val Venis by pinning Trish Stratus. So yeah, Jarrett is the only person to ever be pinned for a title by a woman. A woman!

No, it's not. Most of the people reading this don't know what the UWA title meant.

Not that much. What does mean a lot is Canek's marquee matches, and Canek's mask wins. Both of which are very impressive.

They're not. Many of your facts aren't even relevant. The rest are just generally vague statements that are presented in a way that sounds impressive, then just sort of give way when analysed.

The Yokozuna win, for example. Not only did it turn out that Yokozuna was not Yokozuna when it occured, video evidence showed that El Canek was actually slower than the big man and it was only his opponent's sheer stupidty that let him win.

So, Canek beat him with the smarts? Canek did beat the list of people given, Jarrett has lost to just about all of the ones on there that he has fought, it doesn't tke a genius to work out why the facts are relevant.

Not really. People see Jarrett's name, think how much they hate him, and vote the other way. Alternatively, add another step in with "see that IC25 has posted in favour of the other guy."

Anyone who does that is officially ******ed.

You know as well as I do that people are swayed by who's on which side. As an admin and someone synonymous with turning the tide with Vader, you don't even need to argue to get people on your side. Say which side you're on and quite a few people will jump to it. It's a compliment.

It's true that this is the case, but you are respectd too Sam, it's up to you to convince why Jarrett is worth the vote.

I have never understood this saying. Does it mean "criticising"?

Me too.

I'm insinuating that you're one of his real life best friends and so rightfully influenced by him. I'm insinuating that a lot of the voters are puppets of IC25.

I may vote for one of your choices elsewhere, purely because you have and then accuse you of having your arse kissed all of the time. It isn't his fault if people suck up. It's a pretty low way to suck up.

See, that's still not clear. That's simply because El Canek has done neither. A further sentence clarifying that El Canek is an exception because he has not been hired by the WWE would have, well, clarified it.

Canek has been a big deal everywhere he has been, both in UWA and CMLL and AAA after it went up the creek. Jarrett has failed in WCW, WWF and then succeeded in WCW a second time.

Yes. Now you're missing my point. This is what I believe is called irony. The tournament occurs within kayfabe, and so kayfabe is all that matters. Therefore, booking and its kind don't matter, but just what you see on television at face value.

And Canek loses less matches than Jarrett and beats better people consistently. He also regularly beat people of Jarrett's stature and position in the company.

Oh, I don't want it to be. That company sucks balls. Luckily, Sting is doing a really good job of devaluing it. Jarrett, however, was an unstoppable, dominant champion that won even with exceptional odds stacked against him, even when the fans started rioting.

But he was winning a title when the promotion was shit. The fans weren't rioting because he shouldn't win, not because he's a master heel. The fans weren't buying into the kayfabe, they were buying into the bullshit booking.

I'd argue that it's already as significant as ECW was. Or, at least, almost as significant. It'll be more remembered than the older promotions too, simply for being newer. I'm getting off the point.

But he isn't on top now, he was on top when i was dogshit and just starting on TV.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

In closing I'd just like to say that's it's not impressife that El Canek has a long list of fat asses that he's slammed. Mostly because every fat ass in the business get's slammed. With the exception of one. If anybody could have shown me a video of him picking up Shirley Crabtree I would have voted for El Canek. Alas, that won't be the case. He's my pick for next years tournament.

d. To get back at Jarrett, vote for El Canek! http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=975648#post975648

Thanks for the link Irish, I'd forgotten about the thread.

Vote Jarrett.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Well, it was a good match. In the early stages, the two traded the advantage. It was nice to see a poll go back and forth like that. Eventually, Jarrett managed to secure a slight majority that grew slightly over the remaining time. It then shrunk slightly from nine to eight.

Double J goes onto the next round. I have no idea who he's facing. He'll probably lose. I'm just proud he got past El Canek.

 

[ZEUS]

El Canek. He is like the Hulk Hogan of Lucha Libre, but he could actually wrestle. The only reason nobody knows him is because he rarely wrestled in the US. JJ doesn't stand a chance.