WCW La, Round 1, Match 7: #11 Jeff Jarrett vs. #54 El Canek
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IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
This match goes to El Canek, decisively!
Don't get me wrong - Jarrett is a decent wrestler. He's a mid-carder who stepped in shit one day and was elevated into a main event spot that maybe he wasn't suited for. He's been on the beneficial side of some booking power, and it's turned into a nice career. I also think he's a good man.
But El Canek is a freakin' legend, and one of the most skilled and versatile wrestlers to come from ANY of the four major wrestling countries (US, Japan, Canada, Mexico).
Allow me to reiterate my reasons for El Canek being so much better than the competition:
1. El Canek is a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. It's the only major championship to his credit. Why? Because he stuck with UWA, and even continued to defend the UWA World Title after the UWA folded in 1995. Canek was the most established, legitimae star in the history of Lucha.
2. El Canek defeated none other than Lou Thesz to win his first UWA World Championship. Thesz is THE legend on wrestling as far as I go, and he didn't lose to just anyone. On September 27th, 1978, Canek beat Thesz for the first of fifteen.
3. Some of Canek's other victories are over men named: Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, Big Van Vader, Owen Hart, Tatsumi Fujinami, Riki Choshu, and Antonio Inoki. Look again at that list. NOBODY else has beaten all of those men. NOBODY. That's sick. Other than Owen Hart, it reads like a who's who. He beat them in Mexico, Japan, and the US - didn't matter where.
4. El Canek is the only man to have bodyslammed BOTH Andre the Giant and Yokozuna. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna. And Luger didn't slam Andre. Neither did Ahmed Johnson. But El Canek slammed both of them - and guess what? Canek slammed Andre before Hogan did it, and Canek slammed Yokozuna before Luger did it. And not a bullshit hip-toss slam either.
5. Canek did all of this standing 6'0, and weighing 240 lbs. He's got 10 lbs, and one inch on Jericho. And he's beaten every legend, and slammed every SHW. That's an amazing statistic.
EL CANEK would destroy Jeff "The Chosen One with the Booking Power" Jarrett in under 10 minutes.
EL CANEK would dismantle Ultimo Dragon, but in a 20-minute classic.
EL CANEK would make JYD see double before pinning him in under 6 minutes.
EL CANEK is the reason guys like Eddie Guerrero had a shot.
What is Jarret's claim to fame? Losing the Intercontinental Title to a woman? Participating in the event that would become the biggest clusterfuck in wrestling history with the infamous lay-down to Hogan at Bash at the Beach? Practically owning TNA and then booking himself as "The King of the Mountain" only to watch ratings finally start to climb after he wrote himself off the show?
Canek has wrestling and MMA background, and he'd mash Jarrett into pulp.
Don't get me wrong - Jarrett is a decent wrestler. He's a mid-carder who stepped in shit one day and was elevated into a main event spot that maybe he wasn't suited for. He's been on the beneficial side of some booking power, and it's turned into a nice career. I also think he's a good man.
But El Canek is a freakin' legend, and one of the most skilled and versatile wrestlers to come from ANY of the four major wrestling countries (US, Japan, Canada, Mexico).
Allow me to reiterate my reasons for El Canek being so much better than the competition:
1. El Canek is a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. It's the only major championship to his credit. Why? Because he stuck with UWA, and even continued to defend the UWA World Title after the UWA folded in 1995. Canek was the most established, legitimae star in the history of Lucha.
2. El Canek defeated none other than Lou Thesz to win his first UWA World Championship. Thesz is THE legend on wrestling as far as I go, and he didn't lose to just anyone. On September 27th, 1978, Canek beat Thesz for the first of fifteen.
3. Some of Canek's other victories are over men named: Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, Big Van Vader, Owen Hart, Tatsumi Fujinami, Riki Choshu, and Antonio Inoki. Look again at that list. NOBODY else has beaten all of those men. NOBODY. That's sick. Other than Owen Hart, it reads like a who's who. He beat them in Mexico, Japan, and the US - didn't matter where.
4. El Canek is the only man to have bodyslammed BOTH Andre the Giant and Yokozuna. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna. And Luger didn't slam Andre. Neither did Ahmed Johnson. But El Canek slammed both of them - and guess what? Canek slammed Andre before Hogan did it, and Canek slammed Yokozuna before Luger did it. And not a bullshit hip-toss slam either.
5. Canek did all of this standing 6'0, and weighing 240 lbs. He's got 10 lbs, and one inch on Jericho. And he's beaten every legend, and slammed every SHW. That's an amazing statistic.
EL CANEK would destroy Jeff "The Chosen One with the Booking Power" Jarrett in under 10 minutes.
EL CANEK would dismantle Ultimo Dragon, but in a 20-minute classic.
EL CANEK would make JYD see double before pinning him in under 6 minutes.
EL CANEK is the reason guys like Eddie Guerrero had a shot.
What is Jarret's claim to fame? Losing the Intercontinental Title to a woman? Participating in the event that would become the biggest clusterfuck in wrestling history with the infamous lay-down to Hogan at Bash at the Beach? Practically owning TNA and then booking himself as "The King of the Mountain" only to watch ratings finally start to climb after he wrote himself off the show?
Canek has wrestling and MMA background, and he'd mash Jarrett into pulp.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'm torn here but I think I'll go with Canek. Jeff Jarrett looks like a main eventer, talks like a main eventer, acts like a main eventer and sometimes wrestles like a main eventer. For some reason though, he doesn't get treated like one and there's a reason for that: the fans don't buy it. That's the biggest problem you can have as a wrestler. If the fans don't buy you, you have nothing. There is one reason Jarrett is the king of TNA or that TNA exists at all and that is because Jarrett has been thrown out of WWE. Canek from everything that I've read is as good as they come in Mexico, and with Jarrett never doing much in WCW until it was absolutely dead, I'll go with Canek but not by much.
I was hoping Jarrett would get a bad draw and he did. I absolutely hate the guy. He's had some success in TNA, but other than that, hasn't accomplished much.
He would be completely outmatched by El Canek, who has beaten MANY of the greats, and Double J certainly isn't great. Canek has him completely outmatched here and should win rather easily
He would be completely outmatched by El Canek, who has beaten MANY of the greats, and Double J certainly isn't great. Canek has him completely outmatched here and should win rather easily
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I dont know much about El Canek but IC has convinced me.I never actually liked jarret,i think he is a solid performer but i dont see him as main event material but from the looks of canek's credentials the win should go to him.He has an amazing resume that not many people can touch and jarret doesnt even come close to El Canek's accomplishments.Also jarret hasnt really beaten many big name stars like el canek has.There is a little amount of people who cans say they have beaten hulk hogan or andre the giant or some of the others listed by IC.So i will vote for El Canek just because IC has convinced me that he should go over jarret.
Yes, let's all jump on the bandwagon and pick a 15 time territorial champion over a ten time recognized world champion. While we're at it, let's go ahead and pick Jerry Lawler over Triple H while we're at it.
1.
Canek was a 15 time champion in probably the poorest of the Lucha Organizations. There were 33 champions, Canek was a 15 time champion, speaks to the value of that title, considering that title is essentially meaningless. The Sandman was a 3 time ECW Champion, Mikey Whipwreck was an ECW Triple crown champion, and beat Cactus Jack and Steve Austin, so Whipwreck should have won in round 1.
Yes, because a 62 year old man is so impressive to watch in the ring... Lou Thesz was a shadow of his former self, you know, since it was 30 years since winning his first world title. El Canek was in his late 20's, so he should be beating a man more then twice his age.
It's wrestling, everyone has beaten everyone at some point and some time. The List is impressive, damn impressive, and I can't deny it. It's wrestling though, Kennedy's beaten 9 former world champions, and you know..
And that means what? He's strong, so... Jarrett is smarter, and the business is in his blood. He was breed to be a wrestler, and he's a damn fine wrestler. He's a thinking man's wrestler, and Jarrett will beat him with his smarts, plus his over whelming technical ability, and his ability to piss people off.
Jeff Jarrett's claim to fame, being successful everywhere he went, before he bought a company, and then being the #1 draw in said company.
Jeff Jarrett is a six time Intercontinental Champion, a record only broken recently by Chris Jericho. The Reason he didn't get his shot at the WWE Gold is because Steve Austin pulled the politic cards as he had personal beef with Jarrett.
He went onto win 3 United States Championships in WCW, and then 4 WCW World Championships, screw job or no screw job.
And then he went onto become a 6 Time NWA Champion, an accomplishment only two men have achieved before him, Harley Race, and Ric Flair. So believe the smoke and mirrors that Jarrett booked himself to the top, that's all fine and good, but the total of 44 Individual titles he held before he started TNA speaks for itself.
1.
Canek was a 15 time champion in probably the poorest of the Lucha Organizations. There were 33 champions, Canek was a 15 time champion, speaks to the value of that title, considering that title is essentially meaningless. The Sandman was a 3 time ECW Champion, Mikey Whipwreck was an ECW Triple crown champion, and beat Cactus Jack and Steve Austin, so Whipwreck should have won in round 1.
Yes, because a 62 year old man is so impressive to watch in the ring... Lou Thesz was a shadow of his former self, you know, since it was 30 years since winning his first world title. El Canek was in his late 20's, so he should be beating a man more then twice his age.
It's wrestling, everyone has beaten everyone at some point and some time. The List is impressive, damn impressive, and I can't deny it. It's wrestling though, Kennedy's beaten 9 former world champions, and you know..
And that means what? He's strong, so... Jarrett is smarter, and the business is in his blood. He was breed to be a wrestler, and he's a damn fine wrestler. He's a thinking man's wrestler, and Jarrett will beat him with his smarts, plus his over whelming technical ability, and his ability to piss people off.
Jeff Jarrett's claim to fame, being successful everywhere he went, before he bought a company, and then being the #1 draw in said company.
Jeff Jarrett is a six time Intercontinental Champion, a record only broken recently by Chris Jericho. The Reason he didn't get his shot at the WWE Gold is because Steve Austin pulled the politic cards as he had personal beef with Jarrett.
He went onto win 3 United States Championships in WCW, and then 4 WCW World Championships, screw job or no screw job.
And then he went onto become a 6 Time NWA Champion, an accomplishment only two men have achieved before him, Harley Race, and Ric Flair. So believe the smoke and mirrors that Jarrett booked himself to the top, that's all fine and good, but the total of 44 Individual titles he held before he started TNA speaks for itself.
Before voting, read this, especially if you are unfamiliar with El Canek.
http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=37455
If you read that thread, you will see that I am in no way shape or form a Canek mark, but I think that he was good enough to overcome Jarrett. WCW always did the best out of the major promotions in promoting foreigners, and if we're taking wrestlers in their primes, we should take promotions in their prime, in which case Jarrett wouldn't have Russo pushing him to the Pepsi max, and I don't think he'd win this one.
Canek would win this one, but Jarrett would certainly push him close.
http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=37455
If you read that thread, you will see that I am in no way shape or form a Canek mark, but I think that he was good enough to overcome Jarrett. WCW always did the best out of the major promotions in promoting foreigners, and if we're taking wrestlers in their primes, we should take promotions in their prime, in which case Jarrett wouldn't have Russo pushing him to the Pepsi max, and I don't think he'd win this one.
Canek would win this one, but Jarrett would certainly push him close.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
As opposed to being spoon-fed over rated mid carders who book themselves into invincibility? Nope, sorry.
Well, since Canek was an absolute legend in Mexico, and since wrestlers came from all over the world to wrestle him, he had matches with a variety of challengers in a variety of venues.
It also bears mentioning tat El Canek won his first UWA Championship in August of 1978, and lost his last one in June of 2004. So before you call the title meaningless and attempt to insult us as well as Lucha by discrediting the promotion, realize that is 15 title reigns in 26 years.
Triple H won his first WWE Title in August of 1999, and has won either that or the World Heavyweight Championship 13 times in 9 and a half years. So if you want to discredit a title, point the finger at the WWE, not the UWA.
Furthermore, those title reigns totaled 7,255 days as champion. That is the equivalent of 19.9 consecutive YEARS as champion, and an average title reign length of 483.66 days PER REIGN. That is 1.325 years per reign. Do the math.
EL CANEK held the UWA Championship longer than Bruno Sammartino, Hulk Hogan, and Pedro Morales held the WWF Championship COMBINED!
So before you discredit a title as "meaningless," please next time make sure you do the math.
That's not the entire point, though. The idea wasn't that he BEAT Lou Thesz. It's that Lou Thesz, possibly the greatest pro wrestling mind EVER, hand picked Canek as the best man to carry that promotion's championship.
Who decided that Jeff Jarrett was the best choice to hold the NWA Title in TNA? That's right, head booker Jeff Jarrett decided that. You call the UWA Title worthless, but Canek was hand picked by a legend like Thesz, whereas Jarrett was hand picked by...himself...
Sure, but Kennedy hasn't beaten the list of guys Canek has. Nor has Kennedy carried a promotion, been a world champion, defended his title n three continents...
And guys like Hogan, Andre, Vader - they didn't lose to just anybody, you know. And Canek beat them in their primes, when Hogan was an international mega-star, when Andre could move, and when Vader was the most feared man in the business.
Yes, Shocky, it's wrestling, and everyone has beaten everyone. Six degrees of separation could probably put Whipwreck over Hogan - but that's silly. You ever admit, nobody has the hit list that Canek has. Except maybe Hogan, Vader, and Andre.
Yes, El Canek is very strong. And he's a cruiserweight! So he's strong AND he's fast AND he's agile. And unlike Jarrett, El Canek has a boxing and MMA record, which also speaks to his technical ability.
And yes, Jarrett is smart. SO SMART, he realized that the fans weren't buying him, so he went in on a promotion, became head booker, and forced himself down their throats. That is smart It obviously worked on SOME people...
Wait, wait, wait, HUH? Successful everywhere he went? Ok, depends on your measure of success.
If success is being a career mid-carder and tag team wrestler, hitting people with a balsa wood guitar and wearing blinking glasses, losing said Intercontinental Title to a woman, and then leaving on the first train out is success, then you have got me.
And of course, WCW. Yeah, his title reigns did WONDERS for that company. So well, in fact, that when he was "The Chosen One" and held the WCW Title, nobody really cared.
And then, again, going in on TNA. You call him the #1 draw in the company - I disagree. He booked himself as CHAMPION, but I doubt he was the top draw. Styles would take that crown.
But being the #1 draw in a company that drew less than a 1.0 on TV? Whoa, good for him. But as soon as he stepped down and handed the reigns to guys like Angle, Sting, etc. TNA is doing 1.0 - 1.4's. Coincidence? Maybe Jeff Jarrett just isn't over with the fans!
Damn impressive. I won't discredit that Jarrett is a GOOD mid-card wrestler, Shocky. I won't. He is in second place all-time for a mid-card title. A title he held for a total of 290 days - 48 days per title reign. Yay!
And Austin played the politics card on Jarrett? It wasn't because he just wasn't over? And is this the same politics card Jarrett played in both WCW and TNA?
Yep, two more US Titles than Mongo McMichael and two more WCW Titles than David Arquette. And I'll take "screwjob" for $500, Alex.
Who booked for the NWA when Flair and Race won their NWA Championships? And didn't the NWA Title get defended against just about EVERYONE in those days, as opposed to just one fledgling, upstart promotion?
Folks, the numbers and the facts don't lie. Jarrett's best days were in WWF as a very capable Intercontinental Champion. But beyond that, he's marred by screwjobs, booking favors, politics, etc. El Canek is a true champion, and the math up top tells the entire story.
Sadly, my co-admin does not.
I'm not going to respond directly to the Canadian just yet - I've got to be away from the computer quite soon.
The fact of the matter is this: most of you don't even know what IC just said. You know he held some title that some other half-recognisable names (and Hulk Hogan) did. If titles are a proportional measure of success - which they aren't - then how do they work when choosing a kayfabe winner? They don't.
This is WCW. Now, let's take a look back at El Canek's storied WCW history.
That was it. Short, I know. Now, far be it for me to suggest that a 3 time WCW United States Champion and 4 time WCW World Heavyweight Champion might just have the advantage here, but I'm sure you'll agree there's the possibility.
Don't buy into the regional argument? That's fine. Let's just talk about how, obscure titles at obscure companies aside, El Canek is most definitely the slowest cruiserweight I have ever seen. Watch him, and you'll likely say the same. Apparently, he popularised the American style in Mexico. Turns out that the American style isn't popular in Mexico. Must have gone out of style at some point.
So what we essentially have here is a man who is in a region where he has won world gold - weird how there's no UWA region, eh? - and who has proven to be fantastic at his wrestling style. Tune in to TNA and you'll see him kicking the shit out of Kurt Angle every week. He's the only guy that actually does, come to think of it.
The man he is facing is accredited with some belts at some promotions you will probably have never heard of. If you listen to Tastycles (which I personally do), the Canadian has grossly exaggerated the importance of these reigns and of El Canek's career as a whole. He's also, get this, really slow and cumbersome for a cruiserweight. Well, for any wrestler, really. And that's why he's so good. Went over my head too.
If El Canek had ever, ever faced Jarrett in a WCW ring, there is no way in hell he would have gone over. Do me a favour; actually watch an El Canek match. I've watched several. I'll be surprised if you're remotely impressed. Jarrett wins this one in a walk.
I thought this was meant to be a kayfabe competition. Booking doesn't enter in to kayfabe. And even if it did, Jarrett sure as shit didn't have much creative control when he was the WCW World Heayweight Champion. Certainly no more than people like Stone Cold Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan did when they were champions. If we're going to take into account favourable booking, we should just dump Triple H out in the first round.
Yes, Canek was a legend in WCW, I'll give you that. Wait, that doesn't say WCW! That doesn't say WCW at all.
Sounds like he might have had some favourable booking there.
I'm not entirely certain, but I think Triple H has probably had better opponents. Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Steve Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker.
Why am I arguing for Triple H? Wait, why are you arguing over the significance of winning a title a lot as if it's going to grant El Canek some magic powers that allow him to defeat Jarrett. I hope you actually go into wrestling styles or the like.
Again, I'm supposing that they probably had different opponents. Hands up who actually knows anything about the UWA, other than El Canek holding their title forever?
The UWA.
Still don't see how any of this factors in to a kayfabe competition. I'll just have a look at Jarrett holding the TNA belt.
I may have made a mistake.
Ah, here we go. Yes, El Canek is pretty strong. I've watched the videos of him slamming those big guys. I can't say I was that impressed. Nor can I see how it will help him against Jarrett.
Traditionally, cruiserweights did quite well against their heavyweight counterparts in WCW.
You would think. Alas, no he isn't.
So does Elijah Burke.
You seem to be just attacking Jarrett's popularity here. You know how many rating points TNA has gone up since when Jarrett left in 2006? .3. That's up until now, taking into account Kurt Angle joining as Jarrett left and Sting becoming world heavyweight champion.
I don't know why I'm even debating it - it's not a relevant argument.
What were El Canek's ratings like? Sure, Hulk Hogan wrestled him when he was holidaying in Mexico, but that speaks nothing for how significant he actually was.
He was still WCW champion, was he not? And I'm still failing to see how popularity fits into this.
Nah. AJ's the most over. He's not the top draw. Kurt Angle is.
You're right. That's why he lost all those matches. But wait, he actually won a lot of matches despite that. No, I shouldn't suggest that not being over doesn't affect wrestling ability.
No, he's not. Not in a kayfabe competition, at the very least.
In professional wrestling? About how long El Canek held a belt which most people haven't even heard of? Seriously?
The fact of the matter is this: most of you don't even know what IC just said. You know he held some title that some other half-recognisable names (and Hulk Hogan) did. If titles are a proportional measure of success - which they aren't - then how do they work when choosing a kayfabe winner? They don't.
This is WCW. Now, let's take a look back at El Canek's storied WCW history.
That was it. Short, I know. Now, far be it for me to suggest that a 3 time WCW United States Champion and 4 time WCW World Heavyweight Champion might just have the advantage here, but I'm sure you'll agree there's the possibility.
Don't buy into the regional argument? That's fine. Let's just talk about how, obscure titles at obscure companies aside, El Canek is most definitely the slowest cruiserweight I have ever seen. Watch him, and you'll likely say the same. Apparently, he popularised the American style in Mexico. Turns out that the American style isn't popular in Mexico. Must have gone out of style at some point.
So what we essentially have here is a man who is in a region where he has won world gold - weird how there's no UWA region, eh? - and who has proven to be fantastic at his wrestling style. Tune in to TNA and you'll see him kicking the shit out of Kurt Angle every week. He's the only guy that actually does, come to think of it.
The man he is facing is accredited with some belts at some promotions you will probably have never heard of. If you listen to Tastycles (which I personally do), the Canadian has grossly exaggerated the importance of these reigns and of El Canek's career as a whole. He's also, get this, really slow and cumbersome for a cruiserweight. Well, for any wrestler, really. And that's why he's so good. Went over my head too.
If El Canek had ever, ever faced Jarrett in a WCW ring, there is no way in hell he would have gone over. Do me a favour; actually watch an El Canek match. I've watched several. I'll be surprised if you're remotely impressed. Jarrett wins this one in a walk.
I thought this was meant to be a kayfabe competition. Booking doesn't enter in to kayfabe. And even if it did, Jarrett sure as shit didn't have much creative control when he was the WCW World Heayweight Champion. Certainly no more than people like Stone Cold Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan did when they were champions. If we're going to take into account favourable booking, we should just dump Triple H out in the first round.
Yes, Canek was a legend in WCW, I'll give you that. Wait, that doesn't say WCW! That doesn't say WCW at all.
Sounds like he might have had some favourable booking there.
I'm not entirely certain, but I think Triple H has probably had better opponents. Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Steve Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker.
Why am I arguing for Triple H? Wait, why are you arguing over the significance of winning a title a lot as if it's going to grant El Canek some magic powers that allow him to defeat Jarrett. I hope you actually go into wrestling styles or the like.
Again, I'm supposing that they probably had different opponents. Hands up who actually knows anything about the UWA, other than El Canek holding their title forever?
The UWA.
Still don't see how any of this factors in to a kayfabe competition. I'll just have a look at Jarrett holding the TNA belt.
I may have made a mistake.
Ah, here we go. Yes, El Canek is pretty strong. I've watched the videos of him slamming those big guys. I can't say I was that impressed. Nor can I see how it will help him against Jarrett.
Traditionally, cruiserweights did quite well against their heavyweight counterparts in WCW.
You would think. Alas, no he isn't.
So does Elijah Burke.
You seem to be just attacking Jarrett's popularity here. You know how many rating points TNA has gone up since when Jarrett left in 2006? .3. That's up until now, taking into account Kurt Angle joining as Jarrett left and Sting becoming world heavyweight champion.
I don't know why I'm even debating it - it's not a relevant argument.
What were El Canek's ratings like? Sure, Hulk Hogan wrestled him when he was holidaying in Mexico, but that speaks nothing for how significant he actually was.
He was still WCW champion, was he not? And I'm still failing to see how popularity fits into this.
Nah. AJ's the most over. He's not the top draw. Kurt Angle is.
You're right. That's why he lost all those matches. But wait, he actually won a lot of matches despite that. No, I shouldn't suggest that not being over doesn't affect wrestling ability.
No, he's not. Not in a kayfabe competition, at the very least.
In professional wrestling? About how long El Canek held a belt which most people haven't even heard of? Seriously?
A vote for El Canek is a vote for pointless Irish facts. If you want them come to me, I've got several.
''El Canek isn't half the star Jeff Jarrett is''
''People have heard of Jeff Jarrett''
''It's not cool to follow the admin, the Irish one that is''
''Jeff Jarrett has a guitar that's made of paper. Yeah, paper lays out all of his opponents. That's how strong he is''
''The only way El Canek could beat Double J is in a Good Housekeeping Match.''
The Irishman trys to baffle noobs with what is essentially a pile of tripe. He's like me, only he's being serious. It's fine to get behind a talented fat ass like Vader. people will buy it because he was good and he had size. But if you vote for El Canek you may as well just take a big long schlurp on his schnitzel.
''El Canek isn't half the star Jeff Jarrett is''
''People have heard of Jeff Jarrett''
''It's not cool to follow the admin, the Irish one that is''
''Jeff Jarrett has a guitar that's made of paper. Yeah, paper lays out all of his opponents. That's how strong he is''
''The only way El Canek could beat Double J is in a Good Housekeeping Match.''
The Irishman trys to baffle noobs with what is essentially a pile of tripe. He's like me, only he's being serious. It's fine to get behind a talented fat ass like Vader. people will buy it because he was good and he had size. But if you vote for El Canek you may as well just take a big long schlurp on his schnitzel.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
It's a shame that Jake ruined what was a very strong post by Uncle Sam with the tired old "if you agree with IC25's facts then you're just kissing his ass" argument. It's sad. No, it's worse. IT'S DESPARATE.
So, out of respect for Sam, I am going to respond to his points and pretend Jake's insults to the members of this board never happened. I'm pressing the reset button - just like Jeff Jarrett era WCW.
1. The regional argument. Sam mentions that, because Jeff Jarrett won titles in the real WCW, that he should go over in the WCW region. That's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I've heard since somebody told me to vote for Brutus Beefcake.
The region is named AFTER WCW, which means the match is in a 4-sided ring of a certain size with the platform equal height to the ring. THAT IS ALL IT MEANS. Jarret wrestling in WCW has no bearing on his performance in the WCW region. There is, in fact, little or no difference between a WCW and a WWE ring, aside from a few square inches and the platform height.
Sam also argues that "there's no region names after UWA." Well no kidding, this tournament is run by a wrestling board admin who lives in the US, and is participated in by 98% people from the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, and Ireland. TNA is still a young, quasi-successful promotion - NJPW and AJPW are both bigger, more successful world wide promotions with a richer history, but there are no Japanese residents on the boards, nor are there any from Mexico. One of the hallmarks of event marketing is to know your audience. And if two more regions were added to this tournament, it'd probably be AWA and SMW.
2. The argument that UWA is "obscure." Sure, to people who are so ethnocentric that they refuse to leave their force-fed comfort zone and see that great promotions exist outside of the US and Canada. The idea that, if a wrestler wasn't a high paid commodity in either WWF/E, WCW, NWA, AWA, ECW, TNA, or ROH is ridiculous and SO arrogant. Hell, Jake even mentions that my Vader devotion is "excusable," though most of my arguments for him come from his work in Japan and Mexico!
If you just take some time to learn about the Lucha promotions, you'll gain a new respect for El Canek's work, and what he meant to pro wrestling internationally.
And to call the UWA and it's #1 guy obscure is also an insult to both New Japan Pro and WWF, both of whom had talent exchanges and booking agreements with UWA. El Canek defended the UWA World Heavyweight Championship in Japan, in the US, and in Mexico.
UWA was the #2 promotion in Mexico, behind AAA. Ok, well, WCW was the #2 promotion in the US, behind WWF/E. So being a 15-time UWA Champion in Mexico is the US equivalent of being a 15-time WCW Champion. Jarrett was not even close, nor were his title reigns nearly as impressive.
3. The argument that booking holds no weight in a kayfabe tournament. With that, I am merely pointing out that Jeff Jarrett lacked the overall ability to win without significant help. And the Triple H parallel is garbage. He started winning world titles before he had anything to do with Stephanie McMahon, even at a time when he was being punished for the "Madison Square Garden incident" with The Kliq. Triple H saw success without the booking behind him, as did El Canek. Jarrett did not.
Now for some direct responses to Sam...
I never claimed he was the fastest cruiserweight ever. The reason he is so great stems from how well-rounded he was. He was possibly the strongest cruiserweight ever. But there were heavyweights stronger than him. But the rub is that none of the heavyweights who were stronger than El Canek were also as quick and agile as he was.
You see, Sam, this is why he was able to hang with and defeat men like Hulk Hogan, Antonio Inoki, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, and Big Van Vader. He was strong enough to hold his own against their power (even slamming Yokozuna and Andre), but also quick enough to have a real edge over them.
That's because he's the only one who can write the storyline, Sammy.
Again, I am not discrediting Jarrett as a talented mid-card performer.
Yes, but Burke isn't a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. Burke isn't a wrestling legend in Mexico and Japan.
El Canek is. AND he has boxing and MMA success.
I'm glad you admit that Jarrett wasn't over. And why wasn't he over? Because he was nothing special. He was better-than-average, I'll never deny that.
Well, maybe this will help:
There ya go.
I'd also like to point out:
The choice is simple. El Canek over Jarrett. Folks, don't allow people like Sam and Shocky to blind you with ethnocentrism, or discount an entire country's wrestling lineage. The facts are irrefutable, and if you need me to re-post them or highlight them, just look to my previous post:
So, out of respect for Sam, I am going to respond to his points and pretend Jake's insults to the members of this board never happened. I'm pressing the reset button - just like Jeff Jarrett era WCW.
1. The regional argument. Sam mentions that, because Jeff Jarrett won titles in the real WCW, that he should go over in the WCW region. That's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I've heard since somebody told me to vote for Brutus Beefcake.
The region is named AFTER WCW, which means the match is in a 4-sided ring of a certain size with the platform equal height to the ring. THAT IS ALL IT MEANS. Jarret wrestling in WCW has no bearing on his performance in the WCW region. There is, in fact, little or no difference between a WCW and a WWE ring, aside from a few square inches and the platform height.
Sam also argues that "there's no region names after UWA." Well no kidding, this tournament is run by a wrestling board admin who lives in the US, and is participated in by 98% people from the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, and Ireland. TNA is still a young, quasi-successful promotion - NJPW and AJPW are both bigger, more successful world wide promotions with a richer history, but there are no Japanese residents on the boards, nor are there any from Mexico. One of the hallmarks of event marketing is to know your audience. And if two more regions were added to this tournament, it'd probably be AWA and SMW.
2. The argument that UWA is "obscure." Sure, to people who are so ethnocentric that they refuse to leave their force-fed comfort zone and see that great promotions exist outside of the US and Canada. The idea that, if a wrestler wasn't a high paid commodity in either WWF/E, WCW, NWA, AWA, ECW, TNA, or ROH is ridiculous and SO arrogant. Hell, Jake even mentions that my Vader devotion is "excusable," though most of my arguments for him come from his work in Japan and Mexico!
If you just take some time to learn about the Lucha promotions, you'll gain a new respect for El Canek's work, and what he meant to pro wrestling internationally.
And to call the UWA and it's #1 guy obscure is also an insult to both New Japan Pro and WWF, both of whom had talent exchanges and booking agreements with UWA. El Canek defended the UWA World Heavyweight Championship in Japan, in the US, and in Mexico.
UWA was the #2 promotion in Mexico, behind AAA. Ok, well, WCW was the #2 promotion in the US, behind WWF/E. So being a 15-time UWA Champion in Mexico is the US equivalent of being a 15-time WCW Champion. Jarrett was not even close, nor were his title reigns nearly as impressive.
3. The argument that booking holds no weight in a kayfabe tournament. With that, I am merely pointing out that Jeff Jarrett lacked the overall ability to win without significant help. And the Triple H parallel is garbage. He started winning world titles before he had anything to do with Stephanie McMahon, even at a time when he was being punished for the "Madison Square Garden incident" with The Kliq. Triple H saw success without the booking behind him, as did El Canek. Jarrett did not.
Now for some direct responses to Sam...
I never claimed he was the fastest cruiserweight ever. The reason he is so great stems from how well-rounded he was. He was possibly the strongest cruiserweight ever. But there were heavyweights stronger than him. But the rub is that none of the heavyweights who were stronger than El Canek were also as quick and agile as he was.
You see, Sam, this is why he was able to hang with and defeat men like Hulk Hogan, Antonio Inoki, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, and Big Van Vader. He was strong enough to hold his own against their power (even slamming Yokozuna and Andre), but also quick enough to have a real edge over them.
That's because he's the only one who can write the storyline, Sammy.
Again, I am not discrediting Jarrett as a talented mid-card performer.
Yes, but Burke isn't a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. Burke isn't a wrestling legend in Mexico and Japan.
El Canek is. AND he has boxing and MMA success.
I'm glad you admit that Jarrett wasn't over. And why wasn't he over? Because he was nothing special. He was better-than-average, I'll never deny that.
Well, maybe this will help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Canek said:
There ya go.
I'd also like to point out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Canek said:
The choice is simple. El Canek over Jarrett. Folks, don't allow people like Sam and Shocky to blind you with ethnocentrism, or discount an entire country's wrestling lineage. The facts are irrefutable, and if you need me to re-post them or highlight them, just look to my previous post:
IC25 said:
Poor post by myself, I agree. But it's really rather strange how Lucha discussion begins and ends on this forum with this thread:
http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=29875
I thank you for your contribution to it, Irish.
Where was all the El Canek last year? For somebody with as many accolades as you say he has, he was inexplicably nonexistent last year.
I just find it very strange that you've elected to back him this year and everybody has started to go El Canek Crazy.
EDIT: Here's some matches. I'm not big on YouTube but I assume the most watched are at the top of the page. I'm also assuming that the most watched are the best.
[youtube]GAiJK1XeLf0[/youtube]
[youtube]T5ilaTGyetI[/youtube]
[youtube]MPHEqorXo3M[/youtube]
I watched there three although I'd seen the Tiger Mask one before. My overall opinion is that Jarret would win. So there.
I think Canek should win here, but not for the reasons that IC is saying. First and foremost, you cannot use the booking argument against Jeff Jarrett, because Canek booked his own matches at UWA. Secondly, UWA was the number two promotion to EMLL and then the number three behind AAA and CMLL. The reason it failed in part was because nobody wanted to see Canek versus the foreingers anymore.
Canek should win for a number of reasons:
1. Canek and Jeff Jarrett are about the same size. Canek is dogshit against people that are significantly smaller than him, but Jarrett isn't. Jarrett is weaker than Canek, and isn't exactly renown for his pace either. Jarrett is pretty much an all rounder, whereas Canek has an obvious attribute: his strength. There is nothing Jarrett has that would subdue Canek, so Canek would outmuscle him to victory.
2. Jeff Jarrett's title wins shouldn't be compared to Canek's title wins, but his lucha de apuestas record. Canek has taken 9 masks, including those of Owen Hart and Universo 2000, who is still quite a big deal in CMLL. All of his mask wins were relevant and important, but if you break down Jarrett's title wins you see that he was awarded one, beat David Arquette for another and his NWA title reigns are damaged by the fact that TNA's roster was poor whe he won.
3. Canek would have the crowd on his side- The Southern Californian crowds get behind Mexican wrestlers, and I see no reason why they wouldn't here. Canek was always good at working a crowd, and using the momentum to his advantage, and he'd do that here.
4. Canek's finisher is actually good, he gorilla presses them into a backbreaker. The move is rarely countered, because once lifted above his head, there is nothing they can do. Jarrett 's finisher is the Stroke, something that can easily be powered out of, and Canek has the advantage here.
5. And I hate this argument, but it works on some people. Ignoring the big named foreign people, Canek has beaten all of the Mexican wrestlers that have beaten Jarrett when he competed in AAA. As I said, I hate chains of victory, but you'll struggle to find anybody that Jarrett has beaten that has beat Canek.
By no means is Canek as good as IC will have you believe, but I do think that in a one on one match in Los Angeles, Canek would pick up the victory.
Canek should win for a number of reasons:
1. Canek and Jeff Jarrett are about the same size. Canek is dogshit against people that are significantly smaller than him, but Jarrett isn't. Jarrett is weaker than Canek, and isn't exactly renown for his pace either. Jarrett is pretty much an all rounder, whereas Canek has an obvious attribute: his strength. There is nothing Jarrett has that would subdue Canek, so Canek would outmuscle him to victory.
2. Jeff Jarrett's title wins shouldn't be compared to Canek's title wins, but his lucha de apuestas record. Canek has taken 9 masks, including those of Owen Hart and Universo 2000, who is still quite a big deal in CMLL. All of his mask wins were relevant and important, but if you break down Jarrett's title wins you see that he was awarded one, beat David Arquette for another and his NWA title reigns are damaged by the fact that TNA's roster was poor whe he won.
3. Canek would have the crowd on his side- The Southern Californian crowds get behind Mexican wrestlers, and I see no reason why they wouldn't here. Canek was always good at working a crowd, and using the momentum to his advantage, and he'd do that here.
4. Canek's finisher is actually good, he gorilla presses them into a backbreaker. The move is rarely countered, because once lifted above his head, there is nothing they can do. Jarrett 's finisher is the Stroke, something that can easily be powered out of, and Canek has the advantage here.
5. And I hate this argument, but it works on some people. Ignoring the big named foreign people, Canek has beaten all of the Mexican wrestlers that have beaten Jarrett when he competed in AAA. As I said, I hate chains of victory, but you'll struggle to find anybody that Jarrett has beaten that has beat Canek.
By no means is Canek as good as IC will have you believe, but I do think that in a one on one match in Los Angeles, Canek would pick up the victory.
Now I'm going to find it hard to put my war face on. Damn it, I'll try my best.
Now you're not pretending that Jake's post didn't exist at all. Personally, I've never entirely bought into the argument. However, I know others do. There is some merit to it.
Really, it depends on your interpretation of the rules. Well, of wrestling even. If you think being in a certain place, with a certain type of atmosphere, with certain fans or a certain type of... colour theme makes a difference then, well, it makes a difference here. I know that people have and will bring it up in relation to Hogan, Goldberg and Sting.
"So and so rarely lost here. Do you really think so and so will lose to him here?"
Force-fed is a bit harsh. Fact of the matter is, a lot of people will vote for El Canek without knowing who he is or even because of it.
"I don't know who he is, but shit, these guys seem to like him and I never cared much for Jarrett."
Sly brought it up in the women's tournament - God rest its soul - when Trish Stratus faced... some Japanese women. People were only voting for "some Japanese women" because Echelon was telling them to, not because they actually knew anything about her.
To be fair, I'll gladly put the NWA, AWA, ROH and even ECW in the same boat.
Video evidence, my friend. We were all impressed by those videos of Vader kicking the shit out of people.
Hmm, maybe what his work meant. Definitely not his actual work. I still fail to see what was so special about him. The only reason I can see why Mexican fans would like him, a cumbersome little guy, is for the same reason we like agile big guys. And in Japan they just like big American guys. It's something different. So why not?
I sincerely doubt that. I also still don't think the "title vs. title" argument holds any water. Actually looking at how the wrestlers compare in the ring, that's how this should be done. I look forward to replying to Tastycles post in the next... hour or so. How much more can there be?
You're not going to change my mind on this one.
From what - a pen? Suggesting to creative that he'd like some favourable booking his way. I don't even think him booking himself to titles means much; he was actually without exception the best option for that belt. Better than Rhino, better than Samoa Joe, better than Raven, AJ Styles or even Sting.
I think it's certainly more accurate than comparing the careers of one wrestler in America and one wrestler in Mexico, from completely different eras.
Oh Christ. I'll try to get to Tastycles post some time tomorrow.
You did mention the words "agile" and "quick" (or maybe it was "fast" - it had the same effect).
He was strong. However, because his speed didn't compensate for his size, that's more of a disadvantage than anything.
Most definitely. I've certainly seen little competition outside of AJ Styles (what? He power-bombed Abyss!). At least, he was good at slamming big guys. He's certainly no John Cena or Brock Lesnar. From what I've seen, his opponents definitely gave him a little assistance in making him look strong. I mean being stupid by letting their momentum carry them, before you argue kayfabe.
Does Taz count as a cruiserweight? He was probably shorter.
They must have been some damn slow heavyweights. Yokozuna - or whatever he was called at the time - seemed be as quick. His sense of timing was just shit.
Kayfabe. Not to mention, I thought it was Vince Russo who wrote TNA in its entirety. Has the internets lied to me!?
Are you calling Kurt Angle midcard?
Did he incorporate MMA into his style? And I'm talking Samoa Joe style, not just Undertaker/keep-your-hands-up style.
Jarrett was a superb heel and a great all-around wrestler. He was just under appreciated.
That was the bit where you posted about large crowds for if/when you reply. And, like Tastycles has pointed out, I think "foreign superstars" are the key words.
I'm absolutely certain that's misleading. The wins over those guys, that is. You have to take into consideration the point of the careers those guys were in. The Yokozuna win has already been discredited.
Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?
Jarrett over El Canek.
Don't allow people like IC and, um, Tastycles to blind you with anti-ethnocentrism - i.e. making you believe someone was good and you automatically believing them because they're not from round here and you've seen hardly any of their matches.
SlyFox would do it. Why wouldn't you?
There's more to life than facts, says the Atheist. Particularly when you bend the facts. You know Jarrett's facts. You should rightly be impressed. IC has the great position of being able to fill in the blanks as he pleases.
Very impressive. Does it relate to the match or the tournament? I'd argue not.
What you should do is this. Watch an El Canek match. If you believe the man in that match (El Canek, not his opponent) could beat Jeff Jarrett with a regional advantage that I assure you, you should take into account, then vote for him.
Boo.
Yay, I guess. Anything that isn't against Jarrett, I'll use for ammunition.
Holy shit. Thanks for that one. The dirty, cheating so-and-so.
Did EMLL disappear? If I've got my maths right, that makes it number four.
This is some good ammo. Armor-piercing, if you will. Or even if you won't.
Oh, so now you're on his side. I see how it is.
He's slightly lighter than El Canek - in 2009 shape. Jarrett is hardly that trim either.
1) I reckon if his opponents gave him a run-up and wobbled around conveniently, Jarrett could throw them around just as easily.
2) From what I've seen, Jarrett is quicker than El Canek. So, not renowned for his pace, but still faster.
Also, his lack of speed and agility. Don't forget that.
1) A plywood guitar? What? It lays everyone out. DQ is on? Yeah, it's usually on when Jarrett uses it to win.
2) Figure four. Unless El Canek's legs turn out to be made of steel.
3) The Stroke. It's a finisher. It finishes people. It can damn sure be used on El Canek. Christ knows he won't be able to roll through, the fat bastard.
Outmuscle him?
They really shouldn't be compared to anything. Even CCS recognises that title reigns can't be compared. Edge's wins have been absolute shite (from a kayfabe point of view). I bet he gets far though.
Great. Jarrett's a natural heel. He feeds off the crowd's hate. The more El Canek gets them onside, the more effective Jarrett is.
Except roll off.
The Stroke is always reversed. But it's also always inevitably hit.
Irrelevant. This is Jarrett in his prime. Jarrett Prime, if you will.
Then why are you bringing it up?
In a one-on-one match in WCW, Jarrett would win. El Canek has one slim advantage - strength. It's hardly as if Jarrett has never faced anyone stronger than himself.
What a peverse 3 sided argument this has turned into. I don't have time to answer every point so I'm going to do a Slyfox cherry pick and argue against the most pressing points.
Well, you have a WCW ring, but it isn't the WCW promotion and booking, just the arena. The WCW ring was characterised by the ropes being set up for cruiserweights to jump off. It doesn't really concern either wrestler here, so the ring is of no advantage. If you look at the location of this match, it is in Los Angeles, which has a high Mexican demographic. The crowd would be more into Canek than they would Jarrett, so any advantage in the location is firmly Canek's.
Well more fool them for being sheep, but the point of these tournaments is to open people's eyes to other wrestlers. You've said yourself that you didn't care for Dean Malenko until watching his matches after one of these tournaments. If people blindly vote for who IC is backing, that's ******ed, but if they look at his arguments and then read about or watch Canek and decide they like him too, then they are doing the right thing.
So by your estimation, nobody beore about 1990, when NWA and AWA stopped mattering, is important? Lou Thesz and Andre the Giant may as well get their gear together to go home now then.
He's not that small to be honest, he's bigger than Jarrett. He was popular for the same reason that just about every popular wrestler is: because he could work a crowd up.
Exactly! And in this instance Jarrett is a solid all rounder. Anything Canek gives to him in pace is more than made up for in his superior strength. Canek loses to speed demons and Vader. That's about it. Technically they are similar, but Canek would be able to overpower Jarrett and win.
He was stronger than he was slow, if you see what I mean. Jarrett might be quicker than him, but not by enough so that he'd have ring run around him. Jarrett is slower than Owen Hart, and Canek managed to disspatch him quite easily.
Perhaps, but the advantage that Andre gave him in letting him slam him is probably compensated by the fact that Jeff Jarrett is about 300 pounds lighter. What am I doing? We're British. 22 stone lighter.
He probably does. Even so, Canek was stronger.
To be fair Kokina was the more standard Samoan kind of guy than Yokozuna: Built like a brick shithouse and surprisingly fast.
It depends. In Mexico heels are brawlers and faces are technical wrestlers. His MMA stuff came more into play early and later in his career when he was a heel.
I'm not sure I'd use the word superb. Good. But not superb. Canek matches him technically, honestly, and Jarrett was nowhere near as good a heel as Canek was a face. The reason people think Canek is good is because he got crowds behind him.
Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?
EMLL became CMLL around the same time that AAA sprouted into existence.
I will. But remember he stopped drawing after his prime, so you can't really use it.
I am, but for the right reasons. I'd like to think I've proven that I know enough about Canek to have an honest opinion of him. I haven't even done one gay sex act on IC!
Like I said, basically the same size.
Bollocks.
[/quote]2) From what I've seen, Jarrett is quicker than El Canek. So, not renowned for his pace, but still faster.[/quote]
But not so fast that he will overwhelm Canek. To beat Canek, you can do two things. Firstly, you can be Japanese, beat him once by fluke and then be beaten comprehensively a few weeks later. Secondly, you can be Vader. Thirdly you can be fast. And I mean proper Luchador fast, and even then you have to be on top of your game.
I can't say anything to that, but I hate the "well he'd win by cheating" argumennt, Jarrett gets DQed for using the guitar all of the time, so maybe Canek wins by DQ.
Fair enough. He would probably power out of it, but it's Jarrett's best chance.
You realise that Mexican wrestlers aren't fat, and that that is what you look like if you wrestle an don't take supplements. The Stroke does finish people,
but it is easy to get out of before it's applied, especially by a man who is as strong ass Canek.
Yes, use his superior strength to gain victory.
Fine, I'll stop all talk of title, mask and hair matches if everyone plays fair and does it too.
And the more effective Canek is. That's why he was a great face.
This is Konnan, a man who was then as heavy as Jarrett being lifted above Canek's head. If he rolls off, he will fall 7 feet to the floor. Sometimes Canek just does that, he doesn't need the backbreaker part.
Exactly, what if he only gets one shot.
Because some people are swayed by mongoloid arguments.
Nein, Jarretthas the slim advantage: pace. Canek has a huge advanage in strength. They are about equal on the technical side of things. Canek wins this.
Well, you have a WCW ring, but it isn't the WCW promotion and booking, just the arena. The WCW ring was characterised by the ropes being set up for cruiserweights to jump off. It doesn't really concern either wrestler here, so the ring is of no advantage. If you look at the location of this match, it is in Los Angeles, which has a high Mexican demographic. The crowd would be more into Canek than they would Jarrett, so any advantage in the location is firmly Canek's.
Well more fool them for being sheep, but the point of these tournaments is to open people's eyes to other wrestlers. You've said yourself that you didn't care for Dean Malenko until watching his matches after one of these tournaments. If people blindly vote for who IC is backing, that's ******ed, but if they look at his arguments and then read about or watch Canek and decide they like him too, then they are doing the right thing.
So by your estimation, nobody beore about 1990, when NWA and AWA stopped mattering, is important? Lou Thesz and Andre the Giant may as well get their gear together to go home now then.
He's not that small to be honest, he's bigger than Jarrett. He was popular for the same reason that just about every popular wrestler is: because he could work a crowd up.
Exactly! And in this instance Jarrett is a solid all rounder. Anything Canek gives to him in pace is more than made up for in his superior strength. Canek loses to speed demons and Vader. That's about it. Technically they are similar, but Canek would be able to overpower Jarrett and win.
He was stronger than he was slow, if you see what I mean. Jarrett might be quicker than him, but not by enough so that he'd have ring run around him. Jarrett is slower than Owen Hart, and Canek managed to disspatch him quite easily.
Perhaps, but the advantage that Andre gave him in letting him slam him is probably compensated by the fact that Jeff Jarrett is about 300 pounds lighter. What am I doing? We're British. 22 stone lighter.
He probably does. Even so, Canek was stronger.
To be fair Kokina was the more standard Samoan kind of guy than Yokozuna: Built like a brick shithouse and surprisingly fast.
It depends. In Mexico heels are brawlers and faces are technical wrestlers. His MMA stuff came more into play early and later in his career when he was a heel.
I'm not sure I'd use the word superb. Good. But not superb. Canek matches him technically, honestly, and Jarrett was nowhere near as good a heel as Canek was a face. The reason people think Canek is good is because he got crowds behind him.
Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?
EMLL became CMLL around the same time that AAA sprouted into existence.
I will. But remember he stopped drawing after his prime, so you can't really use it.
I am, but for the right reasons. I'd like to think I've proven that I know enough about Canek to have an honest opinion of him. I haven't even done one gay sex act on IC!
Like I said, basically the same size.
Bollocks.
[/quote]2) From what I've seen, Jarrett is quicker than El Canek. So, not renowned for his pace, but still faster.[/quote]
But not so fast that he will overwhelm Canek. To beat Canek, you can do two things. Firstly, you can be Japanese, beat him once by fluke and then be beaten comprehensively a few weeks later. Secondly, you can be Vader. Thirdly you can be fast. And I mean proper Luchador fast, and even then you have to be on top of your game.
I can't say anything to that, but I hate the "well he'd win by cheating" argumennt, Jarrett gets DQed for using the guitar all of the time, so maybe Canek wins by DQ.
Fair enough. He would probably power out of it, but it's Jarrett's best chance.
You realise that Mexican wrestlers aren't fat, and that that is what you look like if you wrestle an don't take supplements. The Stroke does finish people,
but it is easy to get out of before it's applied, especially by a man who is as strong ass Canek.
Yes, use his superior strength to gain victory.
Fine, I'll stop all talk of title, mask and hair matches if everyone plays fair and does it too.
And the more effective Canek is. That's why he was a great face.
This is Konnan, a man who was then as heavy as Jarrett being lifted above Canek's head. If he rolls off, he will fall 7 feet to the floor. Sometimes Canek just does that, he doesn't need the backbreaker part.
Exactly, what if he only gets one shot.
Because some people are swayed by mongoloid arguments.
Nein, Jarretthas the slim advantage: pace. Canek has a huge advanage in strength. They are about equal on the technical side of things. Canek wins this.
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
I've never really been a fan of Jeff Jarrett overall, but he's pretty decent in the ring. To me, Jarrett is a main eventer that never should have been elevated to that level. He just doesn't have the stuff. Now, whether or not he deserves it is a different matter. The point is, he did make it and is a multi-time world champion.
El Canek is legendary throughout several countries but his impact in the United States has been nil. I admit that he's a very well rounded wrestler; he's got good in ring skills and a great deal of physical strength. Among his biggest claims to fame is defeating Lou Thesz for the UWA World Heavyweight Championship. As great and legendary as Thesz was, I don't know if that's really something to brag about seeing as how Thesz was 62 years old at the time Canek beat him. In spite of the fact that Thesz kept himself in good physical condition his entire life, he was nowhere near his physical prime. If he'd done it in his prime, I'd give the match to Canek hands down.
I think that this would be much closer than some want it to be, but I'm gonna give the slight edge to Jarrett.
El Canek is legendary throughout several countries but his impact in the United States has been nil. I admit that he's a very well rounded wrestler; he's got good in ring skills and a great deal of physical strength. Among his biggest claims to fame is defeating Lou Thesz for the UWA World Heavyweight Championship. As great and legendary as Thesz was, I don't know if that's really something to brag about seeing as how Thesz was 62 years old at the time Canek beat him. In spite of the fact that Thesz kept himself in good physical condition his entire life, he was nowhere near his physical prime. If he'd done it in his prime, I'd give the match to Canek hands down.
I think that this would be much closer than some want it to be, but I'm gonna give the slight edge to Jarrett.
No more direct replies. This takes too long.
A promotion is just a ring, an arena and booking. The ring and arena are there, and the booking comes intact with Jarrett thanks to the precedent he set.
I appreciate you're cherry picking, but I did say that Jarrett is a natural heel. Correction: a superb natural heel. He feeds off the crowd cheering for the other guy. Either that, or he just doesn't give a shit.
Dean Malenko is the shit though. El Canek isn't. At the very least, he's a Marmite wrestler.
Well, obviously. I sincerely doubt that's what a lot of them will do though.
Nope. I just put them in the boat of "I haven't seen much of that, but I'll gladly vote for it". I've just avoided the matches so far where I haven't had a clue who one of the guys is.
Well yeah, but that's because nobody will vote for them, not because they're unimportant. Actually, maybe Andre will get votes.
Same height, but a chunky fucker.
He's Mexican. Don't lie.
I think I do. I'd say he was as slow as he was strong.
Owen Hart wasn't in the same league as Jarrett. Well, Jarrett Prime. Maybe he could have been, had he not, y'know, died.
Making Jarrett's weight irrelevant. Canek can slam big guys. Fantastic. He could probably slam Jarrett even if he couldn't slam big guys. Vice versa.
But Taz was better at using leverage.
He nearly passed out from missing two punches, the fat bastard. I could have beaten him.
When you get people rioting, I'd call you a superb heel.
Or, rather, because his opponents got the crowds against them.
Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?
Oh good. A lot of people will come to see him get a guitar broken over his face.
Yeah, sure.
What's the opposite of bollocks? Ah, yes. Not bollocks.
Yes, but enough to have a slight advantage. Wrestling is more about who has the faster reactions than who can push the other guy away in a lock-up.
To beat Jarrett, you can do... let me count them. You can be Hogan, and he'll lie down. Alternatively, you can have Kitty Pryde's (of the X-Men) powers, and phase through a guitar.
Does he? I'm sure it happens, but I remember him being successful a lot more times than not.
It's a leg sweep. You can't power out of a leg sweep.
Then El Canek's the only one?
Chubby?
Yes. Yes, it does.
"Strong ass Canek"? Creepy. Like I said, it's not about strength.
Never happens in wrestling. Unless you're Hernandez. Strong as he may be, I wouldn't call El Canek a power wrestler.
You know Jarrett won the WCW title four times?
Dude should land on his feet. Also, I just see a box.
He always gets more than one shot.
Obviously.
"Huge" is an overstatement. Not only that, but Jarrett doesn't rely on moves that you can simply power out of. And - just like any good heel - he's great at leading the face on. A big advantage if your opponent is as slow as El Canek.
Hell naw. Time to tap.
A promotion is just a ring, an arena and booking. The ring and arena are there, and the booking comes intact with Jarrett thanks to the precedent he set.
I appreciate you're cherry picking, but I did say that Jarrett is a natural heel. Correction: a superb natural heel. He feeds off the crowd cheering for the other guy. Either that, or he just doesn't give a shit.
Dean Malenko is the shit though. El Canek isn't. At the very least, he's a Marmite wrestler.
Well, obviously. I sincerely doubt that's what a lot of them will do though.
Nope. I just put them in the boat of "I haven't seen much of that, but I'll gladly vote for it". I've just avoided the matches so far where I haven't had a clue who one of the guys is.
Well yeah, but that's because nobody will vote for them, not because they're unimportant. Actually, maybe Andre will get votes.
Same height, but a chunky fucker.
He's Mexican. Don't lie.
I think I do. I'd say he was as slow as he was strong.
Owen Hart wasn't in the same league as Jarrett. Well, Jarrett Prime. Maybe he could have been, had he not, y'know, died.
Making Jarrett's weight irrelevant. Canek can slam big guys. Fantastic. He could probably slam Jarrett even if he couldn't slam big guys. Vice versa.
But Taz was better at using leverage.
He nearly passed out from missing two punches, the fat bastard. I could have beaten him.
When you get people rioting, I'd call you a superb heel.
Or, rather, because his opponents got the crowds against them.
Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?
Oh good. A lot of people will come to see him get a guitar broken over his face.
Yeah, sure.
What's the opposite of bollocks? Ah, yes. Not bollocks.
Yes, but enough to have a slight advantage. Wrestling is more about who has the faster reactions than who can push the other guy away in a lock-up.
To beat Jarrett, you can do... let me count them. You can be Hogan, and he'll lie down. Alternatively, you can have Kitty Pryde's (of the X-Men) powers, and phase through a guitar.
Does he? I'm sure it happens, but I remember him being successful a lot more times than not.
It's a leg sweep. You can't power out of a leg sweep.
Then El Canek's the only one?
Chubby?
Yes. Yes, it does.
"Strong ass Canek"? Creepy. Like I said, it's not about strength.
Never happens in wrestling. Unless you're Hernandez. Strong as he may be, I wouldn't call El Canek a power wrestler.
You know Jarrett won the WCW title four times?
This is Konnan, a man who was then as heavy as Jarrett being lifted above Canek's head. If he rolls off, he will fall 7 feet to the floor. Sometimes Canek just does that, he doesn't need the backbreaker part.
Dude should land on his feet. Also, I just see a box.
He always gets more than one shot.
Obviously.
"Huge" is an overstatement. Not only that, but Jarrett doesn't rely on moves that you can simply power out of. And - just like any good heel - he's great at leading the face on. A big advantage if your opponent is as slow as El Canek.
Hell naw. Time to tap.
Father:_Polley
Fun's my Chinese neighbour's name
Jake's video was very interesting. It showed pretty much a Hogan-esque formula. Namely get the high holy crap kicked out of you by Owen Hart, hit two moves, boom, over.
Now IC, if you're telling me that El Canek deserved to win the match vs Owen because of his power and dominance, then I call bullshit.
Owen Hart was hurling that Mexican around like a rag doll and inflicting all manner of pain on the guy. Yet a 'rana and a running Senton from a 240lb man finished him? For someone who has insisted booking has no weight, that's a whole lotta booking to put him over Owen there.
Now, connect the dots time, Canek fights Owen, who later tags with JJ. Given Owen is in this tourney, I'm sure he'd give JJ a pointer on what to avoid. How's that for Kayfabe?
Now IC, if you're telling me that El Canek deserved to win the match vs Owen because of his power and dominance, then I call bullshit.
Owen Hart was hurling that Mexican around like a rag doll and inflicting all manner of pain on the guy. Yet a 'rana and a running Senton from a 240lb man finished him? For someone who has insisted booking has no weight, that's a whole lotta booking to put him over Owen there.
Now, connect the dots time, Canek fights Owen, who later tags with JJ. Given Owen is in this tourney, I'm sure he'd give JJ a pointer on what to avoid. How's that for Kayfabe?
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
But you just said that Owen didn't see the two major moves coming, right? So what's Owen's advice to Jeff gonna be? I can hear the conversation now:
Owen: "Hey man, this guy's gonna try and surprise you with big moves. Don't let him."
Jeff: "That is totally useless you tit. You should be the Blue Blazer again."
Owen: "Okay!"
You get my drift?
Canek was about as fast as Owen, and three tmes stronger.
Plus, as Tastycles has pointed out, Canek, in addition to being outrageously talented and athletic, was also a master at working a crowd. Owen with the upper hand leading to the Canek comeback and finish is a tired and true Hogan formula for crowd response, and Canek always had it.
PWC, on a side note, Owen also teamed up with Yokozuna. DO you know how that Jarrett talk went?
Owen: "Oh, by the way, Yokozuna said 'don't let him bodyslam you.'"
Jeff: "This fucker BODYSLAMED him!?"
Owen: "Yeah, Andre too. I thought you knew that."
Jeff: "I'm screwed...where's Russo?"
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
El Canek to me, seems to be the Mexican Jerry Lawler. He dominated his promotion like no other. All of those world titles are well and good, but Jarrett has been successful in multiple promotions. JJ has battled the nWo and knocked Hogan out of TNA before Hogan even wrestled a match.
El Canek can claim all the gold he wants in a third rate Mexican promotion. He can beat whoever he wants with home field advantage. Come to America, Canek, and you will get stomped. You think you're strong? JJ has wrestled stronger men, and won.
JJ is a multiple time World Champion, while El Canek dominated Mexico's Memphis.
El Canek can claim all the gold he wants in a third rate Mexican promotion. He can beat whoever he wants with home field advantage. Come to America, Canek, and you will get stomped. You think you're strong? JJ has wrestled stronger men, and won.
JJ is a multiple time World Champion, while El Canek dominated Mexico's Memphis.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Dude, UWA was Mexico's WCW. #2 behind AAA. Memphis is like the equivalent of "Tijuana Hardcore Wrestling" in Mexico. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Canek's victories and defenses in Mexico drew more than an average Monday Night Raw. And he drew in Mexico AND Japan.
Pity you wasted your vote so quickly. Jarrett, a paper champion who's presence on a show shows a direct correlation to that promotion's decline, vs. an international legend.
Canek's victories and defenses in Mexico drew more than an average Monday Night Raw. And he drew in Mexico AND Japan.
Pity you wasted your vote so quickly. Jarrett, a paper champion who's presence on a show shows a direct correlation to that promotion's decline, vs. an international legend.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
Yeah, I voted before I read your plea. I questioned my vote a bit, but all in all, I would still go with Jarrett. I think Jarrett's title reigns outweigh Canek's.
I am under the impression that we are supposed to ignore kayfabe in this tournament. So I ignored that Jarrett can make himself champion whenever he wants. I also ignored that Canek's victories over in legends in Mexico were booked as main events to send the crowd home happy and that he would never beat Hogan in a televised PPV.
I am under the impression that we are supposed to ignore kayfabe in this tournament. So I ignored that Jarrett can make himself champion whenever he wants. I also ignored that Canek's victories over in legends in Mexico were booked as main events to send the crowd home happy and that he would never beat Hogan in a televised PPV.
Now IC, you can't honestly expect people to believe that Jarrett was the reason why WCW went out of business. It had nothing to do with the major stars of the company all but either retiring, leaving, or being injured around that time. It had nothing to do with essentially the exodus of big mid card wrestlers (Giant, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero) all within a year of each other. It had nothing to do with the company getting handed over to Hart, only for him to get injured by Greenberg at Starrcade. Then Greenberg injuring himself by breaking a window of a Limo. Plus guys like Savage, Flair, Hogan all taking a step back. There are many things to dislike Jarrett about, but insinuating that he was the reason WCW went under isn't one of them.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
I posted this in response to Shocky's shameless attempt to degrade the UWA Title Reigns:
Few places aside from the US had PPV Events anyway. And Hogan was indeed too marketable for Canek to beat him in the US on PPV. Jarrett, on the other hand was just marketable enough to lose the IC Title to Chyna in a Good Housekeeping match on PPV.
Canek did beat men like Hogan, Andre, Vader, Inoki, etc. in both Japan and Mexico, where those 4 men were also as big as or bigger than they were in the US. Inoki especially.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
OK, IC you convinced me. Is there a way to change my vote?
I was never a big Jarrett fan anyway. I keep wanting to type Jericho once I get started.
I was never a big Jarrett fan anyway. I keep wanting to type Jericho once I get started.
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