Vice Presidential Debate

[Shocky]

Or you could not be short sided and selfish by voting for the man that you think is better for the future of our country and planet.

Even if that person is Romney.

What's wrong in voting selfishly? I never understood the argument against people voting for themselves. Doesn't everyone vote selfishly in the long run?

It's all about prioritizing issues. Some people think the economy is the bigger issue, others Foreign affairs, others social issues. Why does it matter if someone priorities things differently then you do?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

What's wrong in voting selfishly? I never understood the argument against people voting for themselves. Doesn't everyone vote selfishly in the long run?

It's all about prioritizing issues. Some people think the economy is the bigger issue, others Foreign affairs, others social issues. Why does it matter if someone priorities things differently then you do?

Because as an independent liberal I believe that I determine my own fate. That I am in control of my life. I don't need the governemt or anyone else to help me. But I am also an American who believes in the best for America and the World and I pick my leaders accordingly.

How's that for grandstanding?

 

[Барбоса]

The deflection of blame really needs to stop. I know it's the go to argument for most Democrats, but it's been four years. What's going to happen in 2016 when a Democrat runs, presuming Obama wins? Are Democrats still going to blame Bush? It's real tiring when Obama and Biden continuously go to the Blame Bush card. It's old, and it's played out. I already know that the Republicans, if Romney wins, are going to blame Obamacare in four years. It's just politics.

Normally, I would agree but in this situation it is not actually a deflection of blame - it is a reminder of the truth. The policies of the previous administration royally fucked things up and if it took 8 years to dig the hole that the country is currently in, it is going to take a hell of a lot longer than that to crawl out of and then fill that hole in. The "blame" game will always be played because of the two party system and why shouldn't it? The Republicans were and to certain extent are to blame so why can't the President point that out? Especially when the Republicans seem to have made no changes to those policies and have spent the last two years preventing the change that Obama promised?

It was the same in this country. The previous Labour government fucked things up so badly that the new government, no matter who is was, hadn't a hope in hell of fixing it in one term. It just so happens to be worse in America because the mid-term elections can give the opposition party too much say in what the Presidency can achieve; this time round was a prime example as the Republicans essentially ended up benefitting from Obama's inability to fix in 18 months what the Republicans themselves took 8 years to ruin.

Voting on your circumstances is perfectly acceptable but you have to be careful about who you blame for those circumstances and for an outsider looking in, the GOP is far more to blame than Obama.

 

[Natural Selection]

That is a terrible way to judge in a two party system.

"Obama has not fixed the mess he inherited in 4 years so we need to replace him with the party who not only made the mess in the first place but have spent the last 4 years trying every way possible to prevent the President from fixing their mess."

Obama himself said if he didn't fix it in three years it would be a one term deal.

 

[Slyfox696]

Obama himself said if he didn't fix it in three years it would be a one term deal.

No he didn't, but I wouldn't expect Republicans to bother themselves with fact-checking.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...bama-national-debt-held-accountable-one-term/

 

[Natural Selection]

No he didn't, but I wouldn't expect Republicans to bother themselves with fact-checking.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...bama-national-debt-held-accountable-one-term/

Fair enough, but the deficit still hasn't been halved and I think that is a bigger concern. So, the one term proposition was about TARP and that has expired, but the bigger more important issue is he still should be held accountable for not doing what he said he would do. If I tell my employer I'm going to raise net sales by 2% this year then I better damn well do it or be prepared to be held accountable. He said he would cut it in half and he hasn't.

Once again not a Republican I am an independent, but I guess if I'm not a Democrat then I must be a Republican.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It's when you get so caught up in party beliefs that you cease to see things from a realistic standpoint. I get really peeved though when this "republicans hate women" idea comes up because it simply isn't true. It's an exaggerated claim at best and while some in that party follow this idea that Christianity says that abortions shouldn't be allowed, it's not everyone.

So we're clear. I'm a Jew from New York. My religion's view on abortion is that until the head is crowning, the baby's life is considered a half-life. Once crowning, it becomes a full life. The reason this definition exists is to define when abortion is ok religiously. Essentially, if a woman's life is threatened as a result of a pregnancy, she can abort the child as it is a half life while the mother is a full life. While not perfect, this religious idea is a lot better than the Christian one. Still, it's not a complete idea and doesn't shape the way I believe about this topic. I did want to present it though as it shows that not all religions are as stupid as Catholicism.

I do not have any idea why anyone even breathes the word religion considering this subject.

Here is a news flash, the entire fucking point of America is religous freedom. Therefore, it is not up to one religion to impress their beliefs on the rest of the American soceity.

Should be legal across the board, and if your religion says dont get an abortion, then dont get a fucking abortion.

 

[Slyfox696]

Fair enough, but the deficit still hasn't been halved

It hasn't. You are definitely correct about that. Of course, if we only look at basic statements without the context surrounding them, we'd be doing ourselves a big disservice.

Imagine if the Bush tax cuts had been allowed to expire. Imagine if the jobs bills the Democrats have pushed for had brought additional jobs. Imagine...

So, the one term proposition was about TARP and that has expired

So you agree Obama should be a two term President, correct?

but the bigger more important issue is he still should be held accountable for not doing what he said he would do.

Is he equally as accountable for things he's done that he said he was going to do? Because when we check the PolitiFact promise checker, it's clear Obama has succeeded much more than he's failed.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

So do we also hold him accountable for things he said he was going to do and was successful in? Or is it only a one way street for you? Because if that's the case, then you cannot vote for Mitt Romney because already know for a fact some of the things he says he's going to do cannot logistically be done.

If I tell my employer I'm going to raise net sales by 2% this year then I better damn well do it or be prepared to be held accountable. He said he would cut it in half and he hasn't.

He also said 192 other things, all of which he kept. He said an additional 76 things he compromised on. Another 107 things that are currently being worked on.

Why is it you only want to hold him accountable for one thing, and ignore all others? Not to mention, completely ignore the context surrounding that one thing you claimed he didn't do?

Once again not a Republican I am an independent, but I guess if I'm not a Democrat then I must be a Republican.

Well, here's the deal. You're someone who doesn't check facts, you have ignorantly criticized the President, you ignore context of the situations you blame him for...what else would I call you?

Hey, if you want to criticize Obama for vilifying teachers, go for it. He did do that. If you want to blame him for not repealing Patriot Act or signing the NDAA this year, go for it, he did do that. If you want to criticize him for looking completely unprepared in this year's debate, go for it, he did do that. If you want to criticize him for advancing the civil rights of homosexuals despite protests from roughly half the country, go for it, he did do that too.

I wouldn't care which side you took, as long as you knew what you were talking about and presented the arguments as objectively as possible. I think the few political discussions I've had with Shocky prove that. But you haven't done that. Not in this thread, not in the Prison thread we debated in, never to the best of my knowledge.

I am not a Democrat. I will never be a member of any party. What I do is try to be the most objective I can and evaluate each situation based upon the knowledge I have of the situation. If that's what you do, and you vote against Obama, I have no problem with that. But when you just regurgitate Republican speaking points, completely ignorant to the truth of them, then what else would you expect me to call you?

 

[Natural Selection]

I do not have any idea why anyone even breathes the word religion considering this subject.

Here is a news flash, the entire fucking point of America is religous freedom. Therefore, it is not up to one religion to impress their beliefs on the rest of the American soceity.

Should be legal across the board, and if your religion says dont get an abortion, then dont get a fucking abortion.

I agree with you on this issue. Abortion is where conservatives ALWAYS loose votes. Simply say your faith doesn't allow you to believe it is right, but you have no desire to over turn Roe v Wade mostly because you are not a woman and it is not a decision that should be made by men or law makers.

Once again I am pro life, but at this point in society it will never be overturned, so concede the argument and win some votes on another issue.

 

[Natural Selection]

The economy is the most important of all the issues in this election, so I think it is relevant that he said he was going to cut the deficit in half and he didn't. He had two years where his party controlled the house, the senate, and the white house. I see no reason he couldn't pass anything he wanted to pass to actually fix the situation, but he didn't and now it's the mean old Republicans fault for not going along with his every wish.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I agree with you on this issue. Abortion is where conservatives ALWAYS loose votes. Simply say your faith doesn't allow you to believe it is right, but you have no desire to over turn Roe v Wade mostly because you are not a woman and it is not a decision that should be made by men or law makers.

Once again I am pro life, but at this point in society it will never be overturned, so concede the argument and win some votes on another issue.

Fuck, IM pro life, but before that, im an American Patriot, and one of the rules about America is freedom of faith...Therefore, my Religion, nor anyone elses, has the right to forbid people from making choices on what they do or dont do, especially given that large portion choose to have NO religion. This is not the got-damned middle east. Its America. We do not have national religion. If your religion tells you that you cant have an abortion, then dont go get an abortion.

Romney is a Mormon, is he not? If he gets elected, is he going to outlaw Dr.Pepper and promiscuous sex? Fuck no he isnt, because people would shit a brick on him imposing his religious beliefs upon the rest of the country. Same shit. What your religion has to say about the subject should mean absolute fuck-all.

 

[Slyfox696]

The economy is the most important of all the issues in this election, so I think it is relevant that he said he was going to cut the deficit in half and he didn't.

Those are two different issues. Furthermore, improving the economy required government spending, not to mention the fact Obama INHERITED the $1.4t deficit from fiscal year 2009 and has slowly been shrinking it.

He had two years where his party controlled the house, the senate, and the white house.

And in those two years, we halted our slide into depression, we turned the corner on creating jobs, we put regulations in place to prevent another financial crisis, we saved hundreds of thousands of jobs by saving the auto industry, the stock market has doubled, we prevented even more foreclosures and bankruptcy of American citizens. Oh, and we also passed arguably the most comprehensive healthcare reform in modern history.

This is the context I spoke of earlier. You seem to think that because the Obama administration didn't flip a magic switch that miraculously solved the ills created over the course of the decade previous, he didn't do his job. And that's just silly.

I see no reason he couldn't pass anything he wanted to pass to actually fix the situation, but he didn't and now it's the mean old Republicans fault for not going along with his every wish.

Question...do you honestly not remember the condition our country was in when Obama first stepped into office? Do you not remember the 700,000 jobs lost in January of 2009? Do you not remember the stock market crashing in December 2008? Do you not remember the financial crisis? Do you not remember?

I'm not sure exactly what you think Obama should have done. I'll tell you what, why don't you list some things he could have done differently which would put today's unemployment at 4%, our GDP growth at 4%, a balanced budget and paying down the debt.

What would you have done?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

If I tell my employer I'm going to raise net sales by 2% this year then I better damn well do it or be prepared to be held accountable.

Why didn't you meet your goal? Because of you own incompetence or were there other factors outside of your control? Did you meet your other goals and promises? Did you accomplish something that your employer would appreciate that went above and beyond the expectations or goals your employer set out for you? What can your employer expect from you in the future and is there someone that can do better?

These are some questions Papa John should consider before he fires you and puts someone less capable and qualified as you in your current position.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

I do not have any idea why anyone even breathes the word religion considering this subject.

Here is a news flash, the entire fucking point of America is religous freedom. Therefore, it is not up to one religion to impress their beliefs on the rest of the American soceity.

Should be legal across the board, and if your religion says dont get an abortion, then dont get a fucking abortion.

News flash, we have too many morons in our country who believe otherwise. "The Founding Fathers were mostly Christian, therefore America is a Christian nation!" That's one argument I read a lot.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

News flash, we have too many morons in our country who believe otherwise. "The Founding Fathers were mostly Christian, therefore America is a Christian nation!" That's one argument I read a lot.

"The Founding Fathers were mostly Christian.....s, and the whole point of them coming here was to escape religous persecution"