UFC on Fox 1: JDS vs. Cain Velasquez

[jmt225]

How about knocking out Valesques?

Velasquez? The same guy who got outstruck by Kongo? That Cain Velasquez?

Also, he landed one punch... he didn't pick the guy apart or anything. Cain looked immobile out there and showed zero head movement.

or completely dominating Nelson, or Carwin? Valesquez is a great striker, Nelson and Carwin are both good strikers.

What planet are you living on? Carwin has knockout power, but his striking is atrocious. Same goes for Roy Nelson. And just because Velasquez got one good knockout under his belt does not make him a great striker.

First of all, Liddel did fine in Japan. I really should've been more specific- the Japenese circuit post American MMA domination and the post-Pride era. Almost every fighter whose made their name in Japan during that era has failed miserably in America- even against substandard competition.

That's a big cop-out.

The fact is, today, not many of the UFC mid-card to top guys get released from the company. And when they do, they have Bellator and Strikeforce to go to. They don't need Japan like the fighters in 2007 and before did. MMA in Japan is dying, bottom line. As is K-1 and pro wrestling. Boxing is the main attraction there for now. So, you can't compare today's Japan MMA scene with the Pride era.

Also, you were discrediting Kid in that post, who risen through the ranks during the Pride era. And the reason Kid hasn't done so well is because he's dealt with a shit ton of injuries the past few years, plus he's climbing up there in age.

Jon Jones was not billed as the antidote to the greatest featherweight fighter of all time, he was inexperienced, plus he took the fight on two weeks notice as a replacement. And he dominated. And I'm not sure what you were watching but Pettis nearly finished Guida multiple times. In fact, he looked better against Guida then he did against his next opponent. Shogun fought Griffin, Hioko fought Roop. I wouldn't have had a problem if he fought Mendes or someone top ten but it was George fucking Roop?

Maybe, just maybe, George Roop isn't as horrible as people make him out to be? Yes, he sucked at Lightweight, but at Featherweight he's done alright for himself. He was is the first guy to knock out KZ, and he KO'd Josh Grispi. By the way, that's the same Grispi who at one point was next in line for Aldo's belt. He is tall, with good TDD, and is a powerful striker. He's not exactly an easy fight for a style like Hioki's.

And to go back to my original point... for anyone that doesn't think the new environment, cage, traveling, booing redneck fans, etc. doesn't get into a fighters head is fucking ignorant. This isn't a video game. The fact that Hioki has beaten BETTER fighters than Roop proves that this was a clear case of stage fright. If Hioki was beating up total no names, and being hyped, that's one thing, but the guy FINISHED Mark Hominick.. the same Mark Hominick who finished Roop and gave Aldo his toughest fight.

Marlon Sandro? You mean the dude who got KO'D by Pat Curran?

Sandro was winning that fight before the hail marry kick from Curran.

And why is it a shame to lose to Pat Curran, anyway? The dude is 6-1 in Bellator, with his only loss being to top ranked Lightweight Eddie Alvarez. And since moving to Featherweight Curran is 3-0. You shouldn't discredit Curran like that.

And Hominick has lost plenty of times to shitty fighters.

So I guess that means he sucks, huh? And everybody he's beaten must suck too. Nice logic there.

LOL I bet you were one of those guys saying KID would bounce back? He fought an even shittier fighter and got his ass handed.

No, I was one of those people who HOPED Kid would bounce back, but I was never sure. The man is 34 years old and has had some serious injuries the past few years. I didn't know whether or not he could get back to his old form.

And yes, old form Kid is much better than the Kid you saw tonight.

What I witnessed from Hiko was terrible clinch based takedowns, plodding footwork, a weak body frame and an inability to finish. He won't beat Jose Aldo, he won't beat any featherweight with strong takedown defence and decent striking.

Inability to finish? Look at his record... out of his 25 wins, 16 were finishes. And he could have finished Roop if he wasn't so off his game. He didn't even try to pass Roop's guard for fuck's sake. He had the typical first fight jitters, just as a BUNCH of fighters have had when debuting in the UFC.

I was overstating the reduction of praise Japenese fighters should get, however not one should be ranked high until they fight good North American competition.

At this point in time, I would agree, but Hioki is the exception, period.

 

[jmt225]

It's MMA buddy, If a fighter outstrikes you by setting up strikes with takedowns then he is a better MMA striker then you are. Now, he's not a better pure striker then you, then again, this isn't K-1 kickboxing.

But all that is irrelevant when discussing strikers fighting other strikers. If anyone fights JDS, they do not have to worry about getting taken down. Same goes for Anderson Silva and plenty of other fighters. They're the ones who have to worry about the takedown, so it's not fair to compare the two situations.

It depends on JDS's approach, TBH. I can see JDS changing levels and moving to put Overeem off. Funny thing is, you even said JDS has fought grapplers yet he's decisively outstruck each one of them, while Overeem couldn't do that to Werdum who has AWFUL takedowns. Carwin> Werdum. I'd be happy to eat my words if Overeem proves me wrong against Lesnar since he's one of my favourite guys to watch but he's not proven to be better than JDS.

That's because JDS has better takedown defense than Overeem. I won't deny JDS' ability to stop the takedown... it's tremendous. Overeem, however, has always been gullible for the takedown, so he's overly cautious about it.

Also, saying Werdum outstruck Overeem is really pushing it in the first place. If he outstruck Overeem than he would have won the fight. The fact is, Overeem's shots on the feet were EFFECTIVE, while Werdum landed only pitter patter punches and knees that didn't cause any damage whatsoever. It doesn't matter how many punches or kicks or knees you land... if you're opponent lands the more decisive strikes throughout the fight, then he should win the advantage on the feet when it comes to scoring. Not to mention Overeem's percentage rates killed Werdum's, too.

And JDS isn't unbeatable, Cain could win in a rematch, Barnett and Cormier would allso put up an intriguing fight. A lot of guys could beat JDS.

I completely agree. Overeem being one of the guys who could. The only thing Overeem has against him is a glassjaw and heart. Even as a big Overeem fan I can't deny that one. But he still should beat anybody in MMA in a striking contest. And he will prove it.

 

[Fizzy]

Best, I was going to tell you how stupid you were earlier, but I wasn't home and was posting from my phone.

Brock about to cry? Just shut up. You didn't see anything in his face. Brock would fight any single man in the world, right now. Don't post that stupid shit.

 

[Shinjo]

Best, I was going to tell you how stupid you were earlier, but I wasn't home and was posting from my phone.

Brock about to cry? Just shut up. You didn't see anything in his face. Brock would fight any single man in the world, right now. Don't post that stupid shit.

Why are you so defensive over a homophobic, arrogant and stupid cunt like Lesnar?

 

[Larry]

I was miserably let down by this fight. What I learned was that the UFC, their video package producers, and hype machine are all ten times better and more entertaining than their fighters. Not that I am unfamiliar with any of them, but talk about falling short? If this was a long jump competition this would have been paramount to tripping at the line. Where was their big bad ass knock down drag out fight, which was in contradictory fashion to that description, supposed to be carried out by their "Ultimate Fighters". It was Ultimately depressing, lol. I wanted to see a good fight damn it. Instead I saw one guy who looked like he should have been on a steady oxygen supply and a treadmill get clubbed in the ear and go down like a cheap hooker by another guy who seemingly got lucky that his opponent was in piss poor shape(not to discredit JDS, but he basically got a free pass tonight) and became "The UFC Heavyweight Champion" as a result.

It pisses me off a bit because I think matches like this, and these short title reigns devalue that title. This isn't WWE but the titles switch hands more frequently which tells me no one is good enough to hold one, which therein tells me these guys aren't half what they are hyped to be. That by definition is a fraud and I don't like being lied to. I want to see a dominant, skilled, PROFESSIONAL who can go in there and prove to be a true fighting champion. They build every guy to be some world beater whose skills encompass all that equals greatness and being an "Ultimate Fighter" but then when it comes time to deliver these guys fold like an origami project. I'm just getting sick of it. I don't want to sound like I buy into the hype too much because I don't, I understand marketing and advertisement, but this goes well beyond marketing and advertisement. It goes to what your product stands for, and the quality of the fighters you prop up as being "the most well rounded fighters in the world" "Ultimate Fighters" "Mixed Martial Artists" Maybe they need to go back to the drawing board and figure out how to reconstruct this "Ultimate Fighter" they keep trying to create. This recipe isn't working.

 

[Shinjo]

I was miserably let down by this fight. What I learned was that the UFC, their video package producers, and hype machine are all ten times better and more entertaining than their fighters. Not that I am unfamiliar with any of them, but talk about falling short? If this was a long jump competition this would have been paramount to tripping at the line. Where was their big bad ass knock down drag out fight, which was in contradictory fashion to that description, supposed to be carried out by their "Ultimate Fighters". It was Ultimately depressing, lol. I wanted to see a good fight damn it. Instead I saw one guy who looked like he should have been on a steady oxygen supply and a treadmill get clubbed in the ear and go down like a cheap hooker by another guy who seemingly got lucky that his opponent was in piss poor shape(not to discredit JDS, but he basically got a free pass tonight) and became "The UFC Heavyweight Champion" as a result.

It pisses me off a bit because I think matches like this, and these short title reigns devalue that title. This isn't WWE but the titles switch hands more frequently which tells me no one is good enough to hold one, which therein tells me these guys aren't half what they are hyped to be. That by definition is a fraud and I don't like being lied to. I want to see a dominant, skilled, PROFESSIONAL who can go in there and prove to be a true fighting champion. They build every guy to be some world beater whose skills encompass all that equals greatness and being an "Ultimate Fighter" but then when it comes time to deliver these guys fold like an origami project. I'm just getting sick of it. I don't want to sound like I buy into the hype too much because I don't, I understand marketing and advertisement, but this goes well beyond marketing and advertisement. It goes to what your product stands for, and the quality of the fighters you prop up as being "the most well rounded fighters in the world" "Ultimate Fighters" "Mixed Martial Artists" Maybe they need to go back to the drawing board and figure out how to reconstruct this "Ultimate Fighter" they keep trying to create. This recipe isn't working.

I want to insult you right now, but I know it's against the rules, so I wont.

But all that is irrelevant when discussing strikers fighting other strikers. If anyone fights JDS, they do not have to worry about getting taken down. Same goes for Anderson Silva and plenty of other fighters. They're the ones who have to worry about the takedown, so it's not fair to compare the two situations.

But it's not that simply my man, JDS has shown an aptitude towards takedowns and clinch work in the past, I see no reason for him to approach Overeem like he did with inferior strikers. He doesn't need to be so one dimensional since he has shown ability to take guys down and do damage from the clinch. Overeem is not Valesquez or Lesnar when it comes to wrestling, JDS will actualize the advantage. And to be honest, in those cases it shows a superiority of striking in MMA conditions that Overeem does not possess and JDS clearly does- striking with the threat of a takedown.

That's because JDS has better takedown defense than Overeem. I won't deny JDS' ability to stop the takedown... it's tremendous. Overeem, however, has always been gullible for the takedown, so he's overly cautious about it.

Also, saying Werdum outstruck Overeem is really pushing it in the first place. If he outstruck Overeem than he would have won the fight. The fact is, Overeem's shots on the feet were EFFECTIVE, while Werdum landed only pitter patter punches and knees that didn't cause any damage whatsoever. It doesn't matter how many punches or kicks or knees you land... if you're opponent lands the more decisive strikes throughout the fight, then he should win the advantage on the feet when it comes to scoring. Not to mention Overeem's percentage rates killed Werdum's, too.

The fact JDS can perform better under the same conditions striking wise as Overeem shows to me a greater, more adjustable and more effective striking aspect that would disappear in a kickboxing bout. I never said that Werdum oustruck Overeem but he did land and get past the defence of Alistair, which is worrying considering Werdum is a decent strker at best. Imagine if Cain Valesquez landed those punches? Or Carwin and shitboth of those guys are much better at using their wrestling to set up their strikes than Werdum is. JDS's striking style is simply more effective for MMA than Overeem- unless Overeem can shock me with Brock.

I completely agree. Overeem being one of the guys who could. The only thing Overeem has against him is a glassjaw and heart. Even as a big Overeem fan I can't deny that one. But he still should beat anybody in MMA in a striking contest. And he will prove it.

Again from what I've seen, any strong grappler with very good striking should oustrike Overeem.

 

[Fizzy]

Why are you so defensive over a homophobic, arrogant and stupid cunt like Lesnar?

Surprised you aren't banned yet.

 

[The Best]

I'm guessing that you didn't see the post after which said that the crying part was a joke?

Also, the way you back up Brock is crazy. Brock is the most over-hyped and over-promoted fighter in the world right now. The only reason Dana White even hired him was because he is mainstream. In the UFC, he lost to Mir on an embarrassing knee bar that any experienced jiu-jitsu practitioner would get out of. He beat Heath Herring who sucks, that's not a quality win to set up a title shot at all. He beat Randy Couture who took off 14 months, something he's never done in his career before besides that Lesnar fight. He beat Mir again, because Mir was stupid and wanted to stand up with him, if Mir took Lesnar to the ground the fight, if he even pulled guard on him, than Mir would have won that fight. He beat Shane Carwin because Carwin's jiu jitsu is terrible. Then, he showed his true colors by getting destroyed by a healty Cain Velasquez. Fizzy, just be happy that Brock has a job in the UFC, because if he wasn't mainstream, than Dana White would not lay a finger on him, so don't tell me what to post and not what to post on him. I'm not saying Brock wouldn't fight anybody, I'm just saying I'll be looking forward to when Reem destroys him in their fight, and Dana won't know what to do with his money maker.

 

[a0161613]

I'll tell you what the UFC will do with Brock if he loses to Reem. It's really simple - he will fight again and again until Dana feels he has extracted all the money from him because he is a massive draw, no matter his W/L record.

 

[Slyfox696]

It pisses me off a bit because I think matches like this, and these short title reigns devalue that title.

There's a fine line, really, in title reigns. If it get passes around a lot, then you have a division of guys who are "decent". If one guy holds it forever, then you have a great champion, but the rest of the division is crap (see the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions). There is definitely a fine line for title reigns.

However, since this isn't the WWE, the UFC has no way to control how long someone controls the title.

This isn't WWE but the titles switch hands more frequently which tells me no one is good enough to hold one, which therein tells me these guys aren't half what they are hyped to be. That by definition is a fraud and I don't like being lied to.

You're obviously trolling, or are just an idiot.

If you, a regular person, were to step into the cage with one of them, you'd go down faster than a cheap hooker (that's the example you used, correct?).

I want to see a dominant, skilled, PROFESSIONAL who can go in there and prove to be a true fighting champion.

They all are. They are some of the most elite fighters in the world, and anyone not trained in fighting would find that out firsthand were they to step into the cage with them.

Don't believe me? Go check out Roger Huerta, and see what he did to a man twice his size.

 

[jmt225]

Surprised you aren't banned yet.

He hasn't said anything in the thread ban worthy, or even Infraction/Warning worthy.

I hope he sticks around. There are a lot of MMA fans like him, but we haven't had one of this forum since, shit, I forgot his name, but he was the big Fedor basher back in like 2008/2009. He'll be a great addition to our little MMA crew.

 

[Larry]

There's a fine line, really, in title reigns. If it get passes around a lot, then you have a division of guys who are "decent". If one guy holds it forever, then you have a great champion, but the rest of the division is crap (see the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions). There is definitely a fine line for title reigns.

However, since this isn't the WWE, the UFC has no way to control how long someone controls the title.

Perfect example is the heavyweight division in Boxing. You've got the Klitschko's and no one else which has ultimately hurt the division. I think that's a good example of the extreme opposite, but also a good example of highly skilled and dominant champions holding down the crown. I also sympathize with the point that the UFC isn't WWE so they don't control how long the titles are held.

You're obviously trolling, or are just an idiot.

No no no no no, I hate trolls. That's not what I was doing. I'm not an idiot either. It was just hyberbole, being kind of sarcastic in a knee jerk reaction to a card that ultimately was a let down to me personally. The way it was hyped I was ready for a PPV quality show from a PPV quality card.

If you, a regular person, were to step into the cage with one of them, you'd go down faster than a cheap hooker (that's the example you used, correct?).

Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but I'm quite well equipped to handle guys like that. No I'm not in the UFC but I also don't need to be to know what I am capable of and what tools I have. I was a student of TKD for 3 years and have been trained in boxing for most of my life, on top of wrestling as well. Not worried about any of them, I can handle my own.

They all are. They are some of the most elite fighters in the world, and anyone not trained in fighting would find that out firsthand were they to step into the cage with them.

I would say a few of them are elite, not the majority or all of them. This is still a growing "science" that they are still trying to figure out, I'd say within about 20 years you will have a form of fighting that gives us a better all around fighter at a higher percentage than we currently see. I think the main issues are in conditioning, footwork, standing defense to punches, and standing delivery of punches. In time this will improve though.

Don't believe me? Go check out Roger Huerta, and see what he did to a man twice his size.

Size doesn't matter if you are better trained than the guy you are fighting, and better mentally equipped to handle the fight.

 

[Slyfox696]

It was just hyberbole, being kind of sarcastic in a knee jerk reaction to a card that ultimately was a let down to me personally.

Fair enough.

Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but I'm quite well equipped to handle guys like that. No I'm not in the UFC but I also don't need to be to know what I am capable of and what tools I have. I was a student of TKD for 3 years and have been trained in boxing for most of my life, on top of wrestling as well. Not worried about any of them, I can handle my own.

I'm sure.

I would say a few of them are elite, not the majority or all of them.

Depends on what you're speaking in relation to. In relation to non-lethal combat, the guys who spend prolonged periods of time at the main-event level are elite fighters.

This is still a growing "science" that they are still trying to figure out, I'd say within about 20 years you will have a form of fighting that gives us a better all around fighter at a higher percentage than we currently see.

Perhaps, but you're talking about different things.

Elite is relative to the group you're talking about. When comparing to people of this day and age, those fighters are elite.

Size doesn't matter if you are better trained than the guy you are fighting, and better mentally equipped to handle the fight.

Exactly my point.

 

[klunderbunker]

I haven't been following this but did someone really compare length of title reigns in WWE, a scripted program where the champion is determined by writers/bookers, to UFC where it all depends on who wins legit unscripted fights? I've heard of apples to oranges, but this is like apples to Oldsmobiles.

 

[The Best]

All of them are elite. I currently train in MMA and my trainer is a decent fighter known locally, who's had tryouts for the UFC, but never got in. He is beyond amazing and when you see him up close you think how is this guy 9-9? Trust me, every fighter that has ever stepped in to that octagon is elite and has gone through more training and has gotten their ass kicked more than you can even imagine. Sly is completely right, here.

 

[Larry]

I'm sure.

What???

Just call me B.A.(Bad Ass) Baracus Bro!

Depends on what you're speaking in relation to. In relation to non-lethal combat, the guys who spend prolonged periods of time at the main-event level are elite fighters.

That's basically what I was getting at. There are definitely guys in the UFC in the various weight classes who aren't as good as the guys at the top of their respective divisions, pointing to the guys at the top being the true elite.

I haven't been following this but did someone really compare length of title reigns in WWE, a scripted program where the champion is determined by writers/bookers, to UFC where it all depends on who wins legit unscripted fights? I've heard of apples to oranges, but this is like apples to Oldsmobiles.

I was just speaking in hyperbole about the heavyweight title changing hands a lot and being kind of disappointed about it because I thought it makes it kind of devalued when everyone is beating everyone and there's no one to really hold on to the title and show any kind of consistency or dominance. So I said "This isn't WWE but the title is changing hands as much as it does there". It sounded kind of clever when I wrote it.

 

[Slyfox696]

That's basically what I was getting at. There are definitely guys in the UFC in the various weight classes who aren't as good as the guys at the top of their respective divisions, pointing to the guys at the top being the true elite.

But these guys ARE at the top of their division, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Shinjo]

Quick title changes aren't THAT prevalent MMA, da bomb. Anything surroudning the heavyweight title picture has endured a terrible curse over the last couple of years. From Lesnar almsot dying to Vlaesquez, both champions have had long layoffs and top contenders have had bad luck injury wise.

 

[Shinjo]

He hasn't said anything in the thread ban worthy, or even Infraction/Warning worthy.

I hope he sticks around. There are a lot of MMA fans like him, but we haven't had one of this forum since, shit, I forgot his name, but he was the big Fedor basher back in like 2008/2009. He'll be a great addition to our little MMA crew.

Shame you guys have such an inactive MMA sub-forum.These rules are excellent for discussion and your MMA section has potential to be bombastic! Yeah, I'll stick around- even with it's small size it shits on Sherdog and beats out the UG.

 

[Fizzy]

Join us in the MMA thread in the GSD. Thats where we drop a majority of MMA related news and bullshit around.

 

[Fizzy]

Join us in the MMA thread in the GSD. Thats where we drop a majority of MMA related news and bullshit around.

 

[Shinjo]

I thought Poirier was going to get a shot at Aldo after he beat the guy who was set to fight him at 125 in Josh Grispi but he's dominated 2 guys since and if he keeps it up he'll get that shot.

And I am pumped as fuck for Bendo and Guida to throw down now!!!

Poirer should fight Hioki



If Hioki can decisevely beat a top featherweight then I'll ride his nuts like no other but until then I don't have that much faith.

 

[Shinjo]

Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but I'm quite well equipped to handle guys like that. No I'm not in the UFC but I also don't need to be to know what I am capable of and what tools I have. I was a student of TKD for 3 years and have been trained in boxing for most of my life, on top of wrestling as well. Not worried about any of them, I can handle my own.

:

I nearly pissed my pants, are you serious???

 

[Fizzy]

:

I nearly pissed my pants, are you serious???

My reaction to a fucking T. I expect that on Sherdog and even the UG, but here? Fuck man, we've kept away from that type of talk. Let's keep it that way.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Am I the only one who laughed at quick title changes? Do you all realize that Cain Velasquez held on to the UFC Heavyweight Championship for 13 MONTHS?

That's hardly a quick title change. Since then, the WWE belt has changed likely 20 times.