No you moron. I ignored what you said because you chose to nitpick instead of providing a reasonable response.
This forum....
- Thread starter ProWrestlingFan
- Start date
No you moron. I ignored what you said because you chose to nitpick instead of providing a reasonable response.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Logical he says.
Well then please regale us with your wrestling or booking or promoting credentials that allow you to critique the industry in the manner that you have done in the past few weeks. Because you are awfully hypocritical to say that the "apologists," as you've called us, don't have the right to do the same thing.
You might want to take your own advice.
A lot of people here ignorantly justify Cena's push. Cena is the biggest full time draw at the moment, yes. But he won't be around forever. He's 38 and getting more and more injuries as he ages. Its time to have someone else at the top over him. Rollins has been on top for one year; cena has been on top for 10 years. Its not even comparable. Think of the bigger picture here..
I'm mostly trying to change a lot of Cena apologists ignorant opinions. Such as being the biggest draw automatically means you're the most entertaining.. That's just too naive and simple minded.. its not that black and white.
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
Maybe it's because it's you that is naive and simple minded. Ever think about that?
Fire Marshall Bill
Let me show ya somethin!!!
He doesn't think about anything other than John Cena. Haven't you figured that out by now?
Yes, Rollins has been on top for one year and Cena has been on top for ten. Maybe this is the beginning of Rollins replacing Cena. In order to be on top for ten years you have to start with one. It doesn't happen overnight.
I think people are arguing against you because you think WWE shouldn't push the guy that brings in the most money. Putting your personal opinion aside about who is and is not entertaining, as a business shouldn't WWE push the guy that brings in the most money? I'm with you about building for the future. WWE seems to be doing that with Rollins, Reigns, etc. That doesn't mean Cena needs to be phased out.
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
I indeed have figured that out, and that's when my feud with him started, but he's been feuding with the whole forums for forever
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Businesses do not work that way. WWE is not going to place Seth or anyone else in that role unless they have a guarantee that the person in that role will bring in as much money for them as Cena or more. Seth does not have that guarantee, and neither does anyone else. This simple logic is what you do not understand for whatever reasons that simply escape me.
Cena will likely have his role until his cash cow runs out, or he gets to old to hold the role anymore. It's probably going to be the latter. And that's hardly something that is atypical of past wrestling stars.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
Crocker why do you harp on about this drawing vs entertaining bullcrap so much? Cena is on top because he draws, if somebody drew as much and as consisently as Cena does they would replace him. This is because these are objective ways of measuring if something is successful. While trying to determine how entertaining someone or something is involves opinion and is what we call subjective measures.
Now, in regards to Cena only drawing because he appeals to the demographic that is willing to spend money answer these for me:
Why would you cater your product to a demographic that isnt buying the product?
What kind of business that aims to make a profit would logically do that?
Did you ever think the reason the WWE doesnt put who you want on top because his fans dont buy the product?
Where are the kids (who you said are the most willing to spend money) get this money from?
Now, in regards to Cena only drawing because he appeals to the demographic that is willing to spend money answer these for me:
Why would you cater your product to a demographic that isnt buying the product?
What kind of business that aims to make a profit would logically do that?
Did you ever think the reason the WWE doesnt put who you want on top because his fans dont buy the product?
Where are the kids (who you said are the most willing to spend money) get this money from?
Wow. I'm sorry. You do realize the one who wrote the nonsensical phrase of "you- A fuck it. You know what you wrote.
Also. Call me a moron again and you're dead.
So, being the biggest draw does NOT mean that you are the biggest draw (you stated this verbatim yourself) OR that you are the most entertaining. Yeah, you're a real wrestling expert alright.
Whether that is the demographic who spend more money or not is irrelevant, John Cena makes the WWE more money than others. WWE is in it to make money, they are a business. So, they push the guys who make them more money. Cena winning equals more fans buying more of his merchandise.
So now you are an expert on what demographic is most likely to steams PPV's, which is illegal by the way. What brilliant deduction might I ask brought you to this conclusion?
I don't find John Cena to be the MOST entertaining. I do, however, find him to be entertaining. I like his promos and his matches. I have ever since 2002 when he debuted.
You have got to be kidding me. Did you really just ask that!? The WWE is a BUSINESS. Their primary objective is to MAKE MONEY. If they are not making as much money as they need to or would like to, they revise the product to meet the needs of the majority of fans.
Seth Rollins, Dean Ambrose, Roman Reigns, Bray Wyatt, Luke Harper, Neville, Kevin Owens, Paige, Charlotte, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, and more. Whether you look at male or female wrestlers, WWE has its future in mind with continued promotions of NXT stars who have been pushed on the main roster as well. Nice try.
No, I never said that. You don't have to be a John Cena fan. If you don't like him, fine. I'm talking about the disrespectful people who refuse to acknowledge how gifted he is and how passionate he is. Cena is out there giving it his very best every single week, yet there's morons who sing "JOHN CENA SUCKS" to the melody of his entrance theme, whine about how his Make A Wish work is some PR conspiracy, and then you have those who drag out LD Threads for an entire week just to whine about Cena. I'm calling people who disrespect him and hate him for no reason whatsoever, idiots. Those who dislike him but still show him the respect he deserves, I have no problem with.
1. You clearly don't read the other posts on here, because while draw power does come up, you'll find other reasons such as how he is motivational with his "Never give up" mindset or how he is passionate about the business, or how good he is at hyping up a big match.
2. By your own logic, Cena's not the biggest draw anyway because being the biggest draw does not mean you're the biggest draw.
It isn't just people I consider friends. Whether it's co-workers who also watch wrestling, people from the church I attend (Over 4 thousand people attend it), or random people at Walmart.... I get compliments on my Cena shirts constantly by people everywhere. The people who LIKE John Cena are the majority, and there ARE young adult males within that majority. You know, the same group of people you accused of being less likely to pay for a PPV earlier. Which, again, is illegal. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know how any of that works.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Let's see if we can summarize Crocker's thinking (stop laughing) into a simple idea.
1. John Cena makes the company the most money.
2. John Cena doesn't entertain Crocker.
3. Therefore, John Cena shouldn't be on top because Crocker isn't entertained.
4. Crocker doesn't understand business.
If Ivan Putski vs. Paul Orndorff drew the most money for WWE, then they would run Ivan Putski vs. Paul Orndorff. Given how much more Cena makes than anyone else, they feature Cena that much more. If you want someone to replace him, go buy their merchandise and have the company make money off them. Until that happens, WWE is Cena's world.
1. John Cena makes the company the most money.
2. John Cena doesn't entertain Crocker.
3. Therefore, John Cena shouldn't be on top because Crocker isn't entertained.
4. Crocker doesn't understand business.
If Ivan Putski vs. Paul Orndorff drew the most money for WWE, then they would run Ivan Putski vs. Paul Orndorff. Given how much more Cena makes than anyone else, they feature Cena that much more. If you want someone to replace him, go buy their merchandise and have the company make money off them. Until that happens, WWE is Cena's world.
Why would a fan care about drawing power? How would that affect us? We don't work for WWE or anything.
Why would we, as fans, care about the business aspect? As selfish as it sounds, we shouldn't. We shouldn't worry about these things because they don't affect us in any way. All we know is that Cena has been on top for 10 years with the same damn character and getting shoved down our throats, ruining multiple peoples momentum (Rusev, Wyatt to name a few), and the place NEEDS change. You can't keep falling back on Cena. When Cena's gone due to an injury, who will they fall back on?
Where do you think? Their parents. Kids beg their parents to buy merchandise and are more willing to spend their parents hard earned money, since they do not know the value of it. Its no secret that appealing to the kids market is pretty much free money. Then all this make-a-wish shit to appeal to them even more? It makes me so sick. I feel like I don't even know how Cena is in real life. Every time I see him he acts so corporate and fake. We know that he isn't this goody two shoes guy in real life. Don't tell me you guys are delusional enough to buy into this propaganda.
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
Crocker logic 101, ladies and gentlemen.
So, being the biggest draw does NOT mean that you are the biggest draw (you stated this verbatim yourself) OR that you are the most entertaining. Yeah, you're a real wrestling expert alright.
We get it.. you guys don't have any proper arguments against me so you resort to immature nitpicking.
What don't you understand about this? Fans shouldn't care about the business aspect of things. Stop acting like a WWE official and trying to act all superior to the IWC.
All it took was a 1 minute google search : http://www.mediapost.com/publicatio...tv-increases-popularity-across-demograph.html
Okay then, you can talk about that instead of braging about his drawing power.
What I'm trying to say is more money does NOT equal better product. In some cases it can actually be the opposite; why do you think the term "sold out" is in the music industry?
Rollins and Reigns are the only ones who will have a future here. Wyatt is too unpredictable; one moment he has momentum and the next its completely gone. Owens will be held back for his weight because of Vince and Kevin Dunn. Neville is directionless and has been since his debut. Also he lacks charisma and mic skills. The diva's division is irrelevant to our discussion. Yeah, in your own words, "nice try".
Maybe they don't hate him for no reason? They're sick of his corny entrance, his corny run, corny fashion style, etc.. I don't blame them at all. They just hate every part of his character. I don't hate him for no reason, I hate his stale ass character. His in ring work and mic work are top notch, but his character bores me to tears.
Also I do agree that those who chant Cena sucks are pretty stupid.. they're just making Vince jizz his pants of all the attention Cena is getting. Instead of chanting that, they should chant, "Same old shit", or "boring" but I guess they're too stupid to do that. I mean they need to chant things that are A LOT harder to acknowledge and respond to.
What? People are actually inspired by his propaganda shit? Lmfao that is just ridiculous. Even my brother who is a casual fan (very rarely watches WWE) saw Cena a few times, and says how can any grown man like this guy? He's so corny and unlikable.
Way to go man. Nitpicking because you can't provide a reasonable response.
You're really gonna stoop this low? Trying to prove that Cena appeals to the older crowd because of "compliments"? There are many factors to why they would compliment you. Maybe they like the message, design, color, etc.. thats not really an accurate way to judge if someone likes Cena. You're using an extremely small sample size here. The people you know that like Cena make up the 1% of young adults who watch WWE. You wanna see some objective evidence? Pay attention to the live crowds; how many adults are actually cheering for Cena?
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
And what exactly does this have to do with John Cena and WWE?
Dagger brought it up. I had to prove him wrong..
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
The same way fans care if Cena "buries" people. Or is "carried." He doesn't and is not, but why concern yourself in the first place? Why concern yourself if Cena uses backstage politics to get ahead? Why concern yourself with Cena's selling or his low move set? You aren't a wrestler. You don't even understand what a wrestlers job in the ring is to do. Nor do you understand insider terms, booking procedures, or any facet about the monetary business side of wrestling promotions, so why concern yourself with any of it?
Telling the rest of us not to care about drawing power because "we don't work for WWE," and yet you still feel free to talk up the inside of the industry like you've been apart of it all your life is just mind numbing hypocrisy.
Of course we will care if Cena hurts someones momentum.. he is hurting the progress of potentially entertaining main eventers like Rusev and Wyatt. Why wouldn't we care about this? Cena's terrible selling affects my entertainment. Sometimes he sells well and sometimes its awful. Its never consistent. It affects the quality of the match sometimes. I concern myself about these things because they directly affect me enjoyment of the product. Now what relevance does drawing power have in anyones enjoyment? "Oh this guy is the biggest draw. He's my new favorite now!"
Should I tell him WWE needs to make as much money as possible because it's a publicly traded organization therefor owing money to millionaire investors and not a fucking rock band?
Is this question as redundant as most of his shitty babble?
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
And I'm asking why would you? If you thought that wrestling was real like some 7 year old child, the fact that Rusev or Owens don't get pushed past a certain point is because they aren't good enough. You as an adult, having been introduced to insider concepts by the industry and given information that you really shouldn't know as a fan, now have the right to care and question objectively why Rusev and Owens aren't being pushed past a certain point. And if you have the right to objectively express what you know about the business, then those of us pushing the drawing power and marketability arguments have a right to express those as well.
Because quite frankly, as a fan that's never been in the industry, you shouldn't have the ability to criticize John Cena, or WWE's booking or writing. But you do so anyways because it's your right. So telling others not to do the same thing you believe yourself to be able to do is moronic hypocrisy.
A 7 year old doesn't care about selling because he doesn't know what it is. You know what it is, so that's why you care. But really you shouldn't. If you watch wrestling to over analyze everything about trivial things like whether or not Cena sells a beating, instead of being invested in the match for what it is, a man kicking another man's ass, then that's really sad.
Seems like you don't enjoy wrestling for matters that are entirely trivial. If I knew nothing about the inside of wrestling, and happened to be a fan of Cena because I like watching him kick ass, the fact that I read online that he's WWE biggest draw would only solidify my enjoyment of him. Because now I can see that lot's of other fans clearly hold the same opinion on Cena that I do, because they are spending money on him to support the fact they think he's entertaining.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
You should also tell him that the WWE making money affects the quality of the product that we see, those of us that like it, which is the majority of casuals, so John Cena's drawing power and marketability as WWE's top proven moneymaker is indeed quite important to us.
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
Well Crocker, there is one thing that I do agree with you on. The fact that kids are more willing to spend their parents' hard earned money and that they don't know the value of it and that appealing to that market is basically free money.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
Dude seriously there are very few people left that are trying to have a conversation with you. I give you a chance to explain why the product should be the way you want it to be and you just change your whole argument to "we shouldn't care as fans about draw power" sigh I should have known better
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
I can't be arsed searching for the exact quote, but at some stage Crocker you mentioned that you dont like Cena's goody two shoes act because he isnt one in real life.
Firstly, all the make-a-wish stuff he does is not in his job description and is done away from the ring and is therefore what Cena does with his real life.
Secondly, why do you care about what cena is like in real life vs his gimmick/character? Leonardo di Caprio, Ben Affleck, George Clooney, Matt Damon, etc. are all not like the characters they play in movies. So why are you holding cena to the same standard? Is it still real to you dammit?
Firstly, all the make-a-wish stuff he does is not in his job description and is done away from the ring and is therefore what Cena does with his real life.
Secondly, why do you care about what cena is like in real life vs his gimmick/character? Leonardo di Caprio, Ben Affleck, George Clooney, Matt Damon, etc. are all not like the characters they play in movies. So why are you holding cena to the same standard? Is it still real to you dammit?
