The Real Mr. Wrestlemania

[MMK]

With all due respect to Shawn Micheals and his fans, it's always irritated me that he's considered the greatest Wrestlemania performer of all time.

He was good. Very very good. But to me, the real mr.wrestlemania, will always be Macho Man Randy Savage.

Granted, he didn't compete in as many Mania's as HBK. Macho was in 8 Manias, while Shawn's been in 17 I believe. But were talking quality not quantity.

Savage competed at 8 Wrestlemanias. At 5 of those events, he was either involved in a classic moment, a classic match, or both at the same time.
At Wrestlemania 3 he competed in the greatest match of all time against Ricky Steamboat. At Wrestlemania 4 he won his first WWF Championship by winning 4 matches in one night in a 14 man tournament for the title, culminating in a finals match with Ted Dibiase. Then at Wrestlemania 5, he managed to put on another great match with a man who wouldn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch, Hulk Hogan, in a match that was the final chapter in a year long saga that saw the Mega Powers rise and fall. Not only did he make Hogan look great, but he made another less than technically sound wrestler look great at Wrestlemania 7, when he was involved in yet another classic in which he gave The Ultimate Warrior the best match of Warrior's career, in the first ever career ending match. Long before Shawn Michaels put his career up against The Undertaker, it was Macho Man putting his career on the line against Ultimate Warrior. The match was better than Shawn/Taker. But what was even better than the match, was the aftermath, where he and Elizabeth reunited. Which is my personal favorite Mania moment. And finally, one year later after his career was thought to be over, Macho was back on top of the mountain having defeated Ric Flair in yet another classic WWF Championship match.

Not only were his matches top notch, but look at the quality of his opponents: Steamboat, Flair, Hogan, Warrior. Yeah, there was also the less memorable matches with Steele, Rhodes, and Crush. But 5 classics out of 8 is pretty damn good. Out of the 17 Mania's Shawn's competed in, I would only put 4 as true classics: The 2 matches with Undertaker, the Iron Man Match with Bret, and the ladder match with Razor. Thats 5 out of 8 for Savage, and 4 out of 17 for Shawn.

Putting on a classic match with Steamboat and Flair is one thing, but to do it with two guys like Hogan and Warrior, who were very limited in the ring, is a whole other accomplishment in and of itself.

Hogan was always on the marquee, but Savage always stole the show. He stole the show with Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3, and he did it again at Wrestlemanias 7 and 8 against Warrior and Flair. In all of those Wrestlemanias, Hogan was in the main event while Savage was in the middle of the card, and at every one of them it was Savage who put on the best performance. No matter who he was working with.

And that to me, is what puts him WAY ahead of Shawn Micheals. Shawn, with all due respect, was only as good as his opponent. Shawn needed a Bret, a Jericho, an Angle, an Undertaker, in order to put on a classic match. When he was put in the ring with a Diesel or a Sid, or anyone who wasn't his equal, the match suffered. Savage on the otherhand, proved he could work with anyone and still make it work.

Sometimes Savage made you cheer, other times his mania moments brought you to tears. But each time he made it seem real. It was a real sport when Macho was wrestling. He did it without ladders, and sometimes without an opponent that was at his level in the ring.

R.I.P Randy Savage. The REAL Mr.Wrestlemania

 

[Peaky1969]

Great post by the OP, I couldn't have said it any better myself.....for anybody who hasn't watched in a while, go back and watch Randy's WM matches...and the aftermath of the Savage/Warrior match...that is what wrestling, not "sports entertainment" is all about....

No disrespect intended to HBK either, one of the all time greats..but I'd rather watch Savage that HBK....just my opinion

 

[ugotpwned999]

When he was put in the ring with a Diesel or a Sid, or anyone who wasn't his equal, the match suffered.

Actually Michaels Won MOTY with Diesel .

I respectfully disagree with the OP.

IMO There are 2 'Mr Wrestlemanias'. Undertaker and Shawn Michaels.

-Undertaker is 19-0 at Wrestlemania. He has put on great matches and won titles at mania. His match is always looked foward to on the card.

-Randy Savage has put on great Mania matches but Shawn Michaels put on Match of the year at The grandest stage of them all in 94, 95, 96, 04, 05, 06, 08, 09 and 2010. He is a constant performer at the big event and puts on great matches nearly every year.

 

[RkoMachine]

yeah i have to respectably disagree with the OP.

Yes MM was a great performer in all matches not just at mania but he cant be considered better then HBK who put on just as good of a show and did it twice the amount of times. I love Randy Savage and am so sadden by his death but he is not Mr Wrestlemania. HBK will always hold that title

 

[Peaky1969]

Not sure if I'm allowed to post links, but just had to post this....love it...that was the thing about Savage, he had great comedic timing, along with everything else

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQxyD0Q7GtU&feature=related

 

[kashflow86]

Very good points all around. I loved watching The Macho Man as a kid, but I also loved watching HBK. I don't mean this as a disrespect to Macho Man's memory and in my opinion it is a crime that he wasn't inducted into the Hall of Fame while he was still alive.

With that said, I see what you mean regarding the title of "Mr. Wrestlemania". However..I think that title should remain with who already has it. Shawn Michaels. And I agree that it's not quanity over quality. So here's HBK's Wrestlemania quality...


WM X (1994) vs Razor Ramon 1st Ever Ladder Match at a WM. Became the measuring stick for ladder matches for years to come. Yeah, it's a gimmick match but it would not be what it is today if someone else had done it.

WM XII (1996) Main Event Iron Man match vs Bret Hart. A match that a lot of people said would of worked, especially when it was a time where you didn't see that kind of time put into a quality match. Not the best match ever, but also another match that wouldn't of been as good if it were someone else.

WM XIV (1998) Main Event vs Stone Cold Steve Austin. Passed the torch. Went out there with his back shredded up and still put on the match of the night and that match helped launch an era that we might not ever see again. That's mostly credited to Austin, but Michaels passed the torch that night.

WM XIX (2003) vs Chris Jericho. This is my favorite WM and it's because of this match. It was like watching two guys wrestling their shadows. IMO, it was the match of the night and showed that after 5 years that HBK was still the man.

WM XX (2004) Main Event vs Chris Benoit vs Triple H. On paper "Chris Benoit vs Triple H" would not of sold seats, or ppv buys. So who did they bring in? HBK. Which led to this being the 1st Ever Triple Threat Main Event in WM History. One of the best triple threat matches ever and a long overdue title win for Benoit.

WM 21 (2005) vs Kurt Angle. An Instant Classic...a dream match. This was a 5 star match as soon as the bell rang. Another match of the night.

WM 23 (2007) Main Event vs John Cena. One of Cena's best matches. Cena was HBK's "Warrior". Cena's not the best, but HBK made him look like gold that night. And it proved that HBK could still fill the seats. 80,103 to be exact. It's not the numbers that WM III had but it was a huge night for the WWE.

WM XXIV (2008) vs Ric Flair. One of the most emotional matches in wrestling history. We all knew Flair was losing. But it was emotional none the less. One of the better matches of the night, if not the best. Sadly it's kind of tarnished due to Flair coming out of retirement.

The 25th Anniversary of Wrestlemania (2009) vs The Undertaker. Looking back on that night, it should of been the main event. This WM was horrible and this match was the one redeeming quality it had. Arguably the greatest match in WM history. I'm partial to it, but I honestly consider it a tie with Savage/Steamboat. A lot of people said that Savage/Steamboat couldn't be topped. 24 years later and there's only one WM match that comes close to it and this is it.

WM XXVI (2010) Main Event vs The Undertaker. The 1st one was so good that they had to do it again. While, the sequel didn't live up to the original, it was a very good match that closed out a career that spanned four decades (80's, 90's, 00's and 10's). It was the most important match of that night and it was also the first time a match that wasn't for a title was the main event since WM 11.

5 WM Main Events. 3 WWE Championship Matches. 3 "1st Ever at a WM" Matches. 1 World Heavyweight Championship Match. 1 IC Title Match. And a few 5 star performances to boot. Most of those things are why he was a first ballot Hall of Famer, which is something else I think no one else has done. He has to be Mr. Wrestlemania.

 

[bigbootydaddyV]

hmmm i never really thought about it much.. but you are damn right... i'd put savage above taker and hbk when it comes to wrestlemania as far as being the one who really rose to the occasion and stole the spotlight. Taker especially shouldn't have that title... he's only recently had some great mania matches... the first 12 or so all sucked or were squash matches like against snuka and snake. Macho has it all... one of the greatest matches of all time... check... one of the biggest title wins of all time... check.... retirement match... check.... legendary match again... check... all out brawl gimmick match... check... Yea i'd say macho man really did it all at mania first. Only problem is he did it back in the front 10 rather than the latter 17 so his place in the history of wrestlemania won't go where it deserves to be but i agree he is more deserving of the title than HBK

 

[mayankeagle]

I think you've under-rated some of Shawn's matches. You called only 4 of them as classics, but you forgot Shawn's matches with Kurt Angle, Jericho, the triple threat with HHH and Benoit, etc. I still think Shawn is Mr Wrestlemania - no offence to Macho, he is one of my childhood favourites from the 90s. I think in terms of quality, they are tied, and in terms of quantity, Michaels wins. Hence he retains the title of Mr Wrestlemania.

 

[DeathClutch]

For fuck sake, this is what pisses me off.
It's a shame Randy passed away on Friday, I was a huge fan of his. The character was awesome, he was a pretty intense guy but come on don't go and say he's mr wrestlemania or this or that just because he died.
No one is Mr Wrestlemania, it's all staged the matches are chorigraphed and spots are placed here and there so we get a quality bout. ANYONE who can wrestle can have a 5 star match if given the right layout to a match. Back to Randy, he's pretty much had the best matches of the early Mania years, Steamboat, Warrior (yes he made Warrior look a million dollars) Hogan, Million $ Man, sure he give a lot to the business but he reaped the rewards as well. I've always been a fan of the Macho Man but i'm certainly not going to say he should of been this that the other because he died but look at his career and enjoy it, he's a multiple x world champion, and possibly the best match in Mania history Steamboat that speak volumes about him and as a talent but certainly not Mr Wrestlemania, that shit just makes you look ******ed considering when he was alive NO ONE ever stated that claim it was always Undertaker/Shawn

 

[legendkiller1979]

Bottom line folks, there would be no wrestlemania without Hulk Hogan. He was the main event of the first nine manias. Yes he didn't wrestle in the main event of mania 4 but Vince had him right there at the end. Michaels was in the main event four times. One of those was to pass the torch and one was Vince had little confidence in a Benoit/Triple H main event. And he would not have main evented mania 23 if Triple H had not been injured. Hulk Hogan meant so much more to wrestlemania than HBK ever did. I agree he had some great matches but if he was so good, why was he always on the undercard?

 

[akrassikauda]

Great post by the OP. I agree because before Warrior you were either a Hogan fan or a Savage fan. Savage captivated the audience in his WM matches even if you were an 8 year old Hogan fan you watch the match with Savage you leave the arena on the fence. Savage had some of the best Road to WM promos heel or face and he backed it up in the ring.

HBK on the other hand had some great matches of his own but like the OP stated it's quality over quantity. The one thing that Shawn has over Savage is the Awe effect the did you just see that and the quick strike finisher SCM which had you glued because the match could end at any moment, but those didn't happen often.

Now Taker may be 19-0 but look at some of those matches the streak didn't take off until he reached 10 against Ric Flair. His top 5 matches at Mania happen to be 1. Orton 2. HHH 2. HBK. Now Orton and HBK made people believe they could do it because quick strike finishers which in part made those matches great.

The quality of Savage's matches outweigh HBK's and Taker's. I'll give them all this if you couldn't work a Mania match with those 3 you couldn't work a match with anyone.

HBK - "I am Mr. Wrestlemania"
Taker -"No your not"

 

[THE SWAG]

i loved macho man growing up at that time he was mr. wrestlemania, probably because he was the first of his kind flying all over the place, and technical wrestler, at least to my knowledge, and also in his era he stole the show at those wrestlemanias because he had HOF opponents.

Fast forward to now the mr. wrestlemania of this era is shawn michaels, without a doubt he also steals the show, when given a great opponent to work with.

 

[ilapierre]

Great post. I agree with the OP. One thing i think he has overlooked is that Micheals did have a few more classic matches against Angle, Jericho and the Benoit/Triple H match. That would be 7 of 17 against Macho's 5 of 8. Macho still has a better percentage. It's a pity Macho Man wasn't Michaels age in the mid 80s. Savage was 33 when he started his WWE career. Michaels career was thought to be over by the time he was age 33. That's a whole 10 years of mainstream spotlight Savage didn't get wrestling in the WWE that fans ignore and pretend never happened. The guy was a star in the territories, he was a big name guy as long as Flair was. People remember Flair as a 70s guy but forget Savage altogether. There were no Wrestlemanias in the first 10 years of Savage and Flair's careers. Wrestling hadn't blown up yet. Had there been Wrestlemanias, Savage would have been in 10 more Wrestlemanias, one more than Shawn. Had Savage been lucky enough to be 46 today instead of 58 he would have had the benefit of putting on matches with guys like Angle, Jericho, Rock etc. A lot of you Micheals fans only look at it the one way you think you're suppose to look at it. You're old enough to see today's best veteran retire and go out on top but you're a little young to remember Randy and especially in his prime. I've seen both careers unfold, and Shawn accomplished more mainstream success in a lesser era. Savage was bigtime when wrestling was bigtime and accomplished a lot in a shorter period. Savage was never a tag team nobody, he was a big star from the moment he stepped into the bigtime. He stole the show wrestling wise from Hogan right from the beginning, something Micheals could do but never got the chance to. Savage feuded with larger than life legends in their prime, not guys before or after their prime like Taker. Michaels clashed more with the Steamboats of wrestling who could hold their own and magnify Micheals, while Savage could clash with both great wrestlers and big time stars and clashed more with the superhero legends. He carried those matches and made them look amazing. Sure Shawn vs Diesel was MOTY but that year was a pretty sad year for wrestling. The match was not good, Michaels did what he could with it. And to be honest, Savage couldn't make Nash look all that good either in 99. Mind you, Savage was about a month away from retirement.

I don't mean to sound Savage biased here and anti Shawn Michaels. Anyone who reads my posts knows i'm a huge Michaels mark. I'm just trying to make the case to Michaels legion of marks out there that Savage was just as important in his generation. I personally prefer Savage, i find there was more to him than just his wrestling ability and Wrestlemania performances. His feuds were hands down the best and better than Michaels. His interviews along with Pipers and Flairs are the best things ever recorded. His intensity was unrivaled and he always did what was best for business by allowing Hogan the spotlight and allowing Hogan to beat him (Michaels did too, but he could barely get over allowing Hogan to beat him once while Savage allowed Hogan to pin him every time). Savage's quality outweighs Michaels quantity although there still is a lot of quality in Shawn quantity. Had Savage had the chance to have Michaels kind of quantity though, it'd be a lot easier for the Michaels marks to see. Different eras i guess, one with way too much exposure and the older one with not enough. Had Michaels been phased into a commentator like Savage at age 42 he may have left WWE and not wrestled the last few Wrestlemanias. Had Vince not tried to diminish Savage in the mid 90s, Savage may have stayed in WWE and put up even more classic Wrestlemania performances. Instead he went to WCW and still had great feuds and classic matches in his mid 40s with Ric Flair, Lex Luger, Big Show, DDP, Hogan, Hitman and Piper. To forget Savage's WCW time would be like forgetting Micheals second career starting over again in 02.

Shawn should keep the 'Mr Wrestlemania' tagline. But Savage and Hogan will always be the unofficial 'Mr Wrestlemanias' to older and more wrestling fans. Without both men there would be no Wrestlemanias for
guys like Shawn Michaels.

 

[FlairFan2003]

I don't know if I would call Savage "Mr WrestleMania" - Fact is, Hulk Hogan more than anyone put WM on the map because he main evented virtually all of them through the first 8 years.

That said, HBK worked his butt off in every performance, and certainly his recent matches vs Flair and Undertaker were classics, adding to his legacy. Undertaker may have the winning streak but so many of his matches were forgotten mid card fodder, it wasn't until he fought HHH the first time that people even started talking about the streak. Now recently with HHH, Flair, HBK, Batista, and Edge UT has had some memorable matches but HBK was at or near the top of most of his WMs, until more recently UT usually was not.


Savage was an integral part of the WWE's expansion in the 1980's, in terms of recognition and importance to the success of the show in that decade he's probably behind only Hogan and Flair, I'd put him ahead of Piper (too much time off last half decade), Rhodes, or Andre (part time wrestler, Savage was their all the time). In terms of WM matches he was usually near the top of the card, and he did lead Ultimate Warrior, one of the most limited poor in ring performers ever to grace the main event stage, through easily his best match ever. Think Flair deserves credit for how awesome Lex Luger looked at Starrcade 88, Luger was twice as good on average in the ring as Warrior.

I'd still say HBK was Mr WrestleMania - but Savage deserves more credit than most as a performer for the event's initial success and longevity. His bouts with Hogan, Warrior, Steamboat, and Flair will always be among the most talked about and entertaining matches in WM history

 

[MMK]

Great points by ilapierre, akrassikauda, as well as others.

I see some folks agree with my Macho Man choice, while others are still poiting to Hogan, Shawn, or even Undertaker. That's fair.

But what's not fair is to say that I'm making this claim simply because Savage died. Hogan, Taker, Shawn could pass away tomorrow and I'd still point to The Macho Man. I've always felt that way. I just feel now is the appropriate time to point it out to everyone else. Especially younger fans not familiar with his work. They released a Legends Of Wrestlemania game a few years back, and didn't even include Savage. So there could be a whole generation of fans not familiar with Mach.

So I'm not just saying Macho is the true Mr.Wrestlemania because he died, I truly believe it. Always have. And I think he would have been given that monicker if not for his rocky relationship with Vince and the falling out they had. If roles had been reversed, and Macho had been on great terms with Vince while Shawn had been at odds with WWE the past 10 or so years, then I think Savage would have been the one in all the Wrestlemania highlight packages.

But lets take a closer look at the other big 3 (Hogan, Shawn, Taker)

Undertaker may have an impressive streak in terms of sheer length, but the matches contained in that streak are pretty forgettable. Only the one with Shawn is a true classic. KKBundy, Gonzales, Kane, Mark Henry, Batista, etc. Sorry, that list doesn't impress me that much. The streak itself is an awesome storyline, but the matches contained inside that streak....not so much.

As for Shawn, I'm sorry but I just don't consider matches with Diesel, Razor, Angle, Jericho, Benoit, or HHH, to be at the same level as Flair, Steamboat, Hogan, and Warrior. That's just me. Macho competed with legends when wrestling was in its golden years. Shawn is definitely the Mr.Wrestlemania of his generation. But his generation doesn't hold a candle to Macho's.

As for Hogan. As I said in the original post, Hogan was always the focal point of Mania, but most of the time his Mania outings were less than impressive. Hogan's matches at WM 1, 2, 7, 8, and 9 were all heavily hyped but ended up being a disappointment in terms of quality. He did however surpass expectations at WM 3, 5, 6, and 18. So that's 4 classics for Hogan. One less than Savage. And Savage did that with fewer Mania appearances, fewer main event matches, and none of the matches he was involved in were as heavily hyped as Hogans.

The photo-op moment coming out of Wrestlemanias 3,4,5,7,8 were all supposed to involve Hogan. But Im guessing for most people, its a Macho Man match or moment that ends up standing the test of time.


Bottom line, Macho Man had the greatest match of all time, and it took place at the greatest Wrestlemania of all time. Steamboat/Savage Wrestlemania 3. It hasn't been topped yet. And it inspired a whole new generation of wrestlers. And if you don't belive me, just look at the attire CM Punk was wearing on RAW this week.

 

[Defekt]

This post is a bit reactionary I think. Two weeks ago no one would have said Randy Savage was Mr. Wrestlemania. It's a shame he died, but let's not go overboard.

If you don't like Shawn, you have to at least admit, Hogan's WM matches/opponents were more memorable than Savage's.

"Quality vs quantity?" Did Shawn Michaels ever have a bad WM match, or for that matter, a non memorable one? You'd have to go back to at least 1993.

 

[Silent1886]

I need some clarification. You have to explain your criteria for "epic" status.

Do you mean a great wrestling match? A Main event? High-profile opponents?

It seems to me like you're declaring the matches you have personal emotional investment in to be "great" while ignoring those you don't.

Without illuminating how you came to your conclusion it becomes impossible to disagree with you, thus delegitimizing the point you're trying to make.

Maybe this isn't your intention, after all I don't know you, but it seems like you're being deliberately vague so nobody can argue with you. So, please, define a "great match," even if its just a personal definition. Then I can either respect your point or refute it.

 

[ilapierre]

No disrespect Defkt but Savage has always been Mr Wrestlemania to a lot of people. There are a lot of people out there whose favourite all time wrestler was Savage. Hogan marks point to Savage as their #2. Savage didn't get credited enough because of how he left WWE and over the past 10 years he's had little to no mention. So there seems to be bandwagon jumpers now that Savage is actually getting attention and recognition for once for dying. He'd have gotten the same attention though had he appeared on Raw and mended fences with Vince. However, younger and more modern fans tuned in now more than ever still just don't get anything that challenges the 'Micheals is the best wrestler ever' train of thinking that began after Michaels laid his career to rest. I do get your point though, Savage was not known for his Wrestlemania dominance. But as for being the best wrestler on a Wrestlemania card, Savage was for a decade. Savage was more than a Wrestlemania guy, he was out there with all the lower card wrestlers 365 days a year. Hogan's Wrestlemania matches though were not more memorable than Savages.

Savage vs Steele was better than Hogan vs Bundy. I remember Steele eating the turnbuckle much more than Hogan legdropping Bundy. Andre vs Hogan was more memorable than almost any match ever but it wasn't one of the top 10 ever wrestling wise like Steamboat vs Savage. Savage's 4 wins at Wrestlemania is one of the best feats ever, much better than Hogan bodyslamming a lethargic giant. Savage made Hogan memorable at Wrestlemania 5. Hogan vs Warrior was eons more memorable than Savage's mixed tag match. However, Slaughter vs Hogan was a shit fest compared to probably the most epic match ever: Warrior vs Savage Loser Must Retire Match. Hogan vs Sid had nothing on Savage vs Flair, and Savage's commentating made Hogan's 12 second match with Yokozuna worth watching. Plus, Savage fought a pins count anywhere in the arena match against Crush and made Crush more watchable in 12 minutes than Yokozuna in 12 seconds. The match was better than the shitfest that was Hogan and Mr T vs Piper and Orndorff. Piper had to be there to make Hogan look good before Savage. Hogan's matches with Rock and Vince were epic matches, the Rock one was as big or bigger than the one with Andre. Mind you, the biggest wrestler of all time shouldn't have had any problem beating an even older promoter in Vince McMahon. But it brought Hogan's career full circle. I could only imagine how amazing a Savage vs Rock match or a Stephanie on a pole Savage vs Vince match would have turned out.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think it depends on your own point of view but let us not forget that Mr WrestleMania was a moniker that Shawn gave himself. There have been a lot of great WrestleMania performers in the past who could have easily called themselves that due to their superlative performances on the biggest stage but they chose not to do so and Shawn did. That is the biggest reason that Shawn is known as Mr WrestleMania though it must be said that he has performed exceedingly well at WrestleMania.

If you ask me, I'll say that Savage is a better choice than HBK. I say this because although I'd say that both of them are more or less equally good in the ring, Savage was a bigger draw than HBK. HBK has participated in some of the lowest drawing Manias of all time while Savage has participated in some very good ones. Mania 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 were all good ones in terms of attendance and Savage had an imporant role to play in those events. HBK participted in some really poor Manias like 9, 11, 12, 25. Even Mania 26 drew bad numbers if I am correct. It doesn't always matter if you put up a good performance if you canot put asses in the seats. Keeping this in mind I'd say that Hogan deserves the tag more than Savage or HBK as he was the biggest draw of his era and regardless of his ability in the ring, he has put on some of the greatest matches in Mania history.

But then I think that different people will have different opinions because there is no set criteria for judging a "Mr WrestleMania". It is basically a nickname HBK gave himself and unless someone has the time to go to his house and debate the criterias on which he decided to name himself so, there will be no end to this debate.

 

[hbkmark]

Again being the HBK Mark you know that I might disagree. I can say that Savage vs. Steamboat is the reason that I have spent the last twenty-plus years being WAY too into wrestling but to say that Shawn Michaels only had four classics is pretty ridiculous.

If you want to point out making a lesser opponent better you have to say the Michaels was facing Diesel when Kevin Nash had not put much together. He was another big imposing guy until he face Shawn and they made it into a classic.

Then, there were the Michaels-Angle and Michaels-Jericho matches. The word genius comes to mind. I think the Ironman with Bret Hart should maybe count for at least two matches because they were able to weave the story and keep the action moving throughout and go beyond the hour.

The Cena match was one where he turned the corner and HBK was the reason for it. The Flair match was brilliant, the triple threat with HHH and Benoit was again one where Michaels advanced the story as much as he took the beating. Finally, the performance in the Steve Austin match was the most real because he was not selling he was helping to take the industry back to the next level by gutting things out.

Macho Man was great but not HBK. Honestly, having Hogan and Warrior around may have diminished him a bit because you did not get to see him do wrestling moves nearly as much as he was capable of doing.

 

[SydTinDad]

People,

The man died. It was tragic, it burns a whole in my heart, and the world will miss him. Mach was one of my childhood idols. IMO, in the same company as Hogan, HBK, Rock, Austin as the top 5 greatest ever.

Blew away Flair who I have always found nauziating, HHH that I have always found annoying, and Brett and Taker I loved but they never "GRABBED ME".

BUT..............we can't use his death as a platform to make him something that he was not. That is disrespectful to his memory and his legacy. He was a legend among legends, but you can't base the (incredible I may add) short body of work in WM versus IMO, the greates in ring performer who ever lived in HBK.

I'm sorry guys and gals. It had to be said.

Long live Macho Man...........OOOOOOOOh Yeaaaaaaaah!

 

[ilapierre]

Savage fought and most often beat a list of guys from 1970s to 1999 that includes: Jerry Lawler, Bruno Sammartino, Andre the Giant, Roddy Piper, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Ricky Steamboat, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Ultimate Warrior, Lex Luger, Ted Dibiase, Jake Roberts, Dusty Rhodes, Sid Vicious, Ric Flair (in his prime), Shawn Michaels (who never did beat Savage), Yokozuna, Steve Austin, Chris Benoit, Booker T, Jeff Jarrett, Sting, DDP, Rey Mysterio, Scott Steiner, yadda yadda. Can't think of anyone he had the chance to beat that he didn't except Hogan, Andre, or Warrior by pinfall. The only guy from his time frame he didn't match up with was with Undertaker. Macho Man put more fans in the seats than Michaels, he matched up better with the superhero/villain behemoths and the smaller technical guys, he did promos like no other, he stole the Wrestlemania show from the biggest wrestler of all time Hulk Hogan, he was the best innovator of his generation, perhaps the most charismatic, is more well known in popular media, i could go on forever. The guy spent a quarter of his century entertaining wrestling fans whether there were Wrestlemanias or not. His time wrestling before wrestling was big counts whether you Michaels marks want to think it does or not. And to think the old 70s guys weren't as good as the Jerichos and Angles and Cenas of the 00s is absurd. Michaels benefited from the fact that Savage and Hogan put WWE on the map around the beginning of his career when both men had already had a decade under their belt.

So Michaels has had legendary matches and feuds too with the likes of Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, John Cena, Chris Benoit, Triple H, Edge, Jarrett, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, Chris Jericho, Undertaker, Eddie Guerrero, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Sid Vicious, Booker T, Rey Rey, Vince McMahon, and even a sad match with Hulk Hogan. It's obvious running through the lists that Savage faced much of the same plus way stronger competition, put on better matches with worse wrestlers and legends past their prime, and won a fair share of the battles against legends in their prime. He wrestled against better competition in matches that meant much more. Had Michaels been an era prior and in WCW he could have taken on some of the great competition Randy Savage got to. Michaels is the greatest in ring performer of all time even better than Savage because he could do a little bit more and did it in today's generation. I'm not questioning Michaels and in his ring ability to wrestle and entertain in the older slower generation and today's quicker fast paced wrestling. He is Mr. Wrestlemania, his best bouts happened there. But Savage as an all around entertainer the other 364 days a year was better. And he was pretty damn good at the 8 Wrestlemanias he wrestled at. Michaels couldn't draw as well, couldn't do as good an interview (although he was pretty damn good), he didn't look right in the ring with bigger guys and he couldn't always carry a shitty wrestler (and if he did he didn't do it as well as Savage could).

I don't think people here are using Savage's death as a platform to make crazy statements. I think Savage's death has awoken some much needed attention since he has basically been shunned over the past decade. Michaels is Mr. Wrestlemania because he wrestled many more than Hogan or Savage. If anything, i personally think that Michael's pomp and circumstance retirement last year (a retirement that no wrestler not Bruno, Hogan, Hitman, Savage, Andre not anyone other than Michaels got) has been used as a platform to make crazy statements that Michaels is the best ever. Anyone who watched the first 10 Wrestlemanias,anyone who grew up a generation before Michaels and lived through the past 10 years knows that Michaels is up there among the best. But he never will be the
best because there were areas outside of 'the ring' where he wasn't as good. There's much more to wrestling entertainment than in ring ability which Shawn mastered and being the company guy like Hulk Hogan. Even still Macho Man was a 9 and a half out of 10 in each category if Shawn and Hogan were 10 in one and about 6 in the other.

Hbkmark puts up some really strong points though..Michaels did have a classic match with the over the hill Ric Flair and also with another guy who can't wrestle that well and who Savage would squash:John Cena. His Hitman match at Wrestlemania 12 counts as two or three matches in one but you can also credit Hitman for being Michaels' dance partner. It's a pity Savage never got to wrestle another 9 Manias. I would have loved to see him take on Stone Cold in his prime, The Rock, Triple H, Michaels in his prime. Michaels marks might be Savage marks instead had Savage stayed with WWE in 1994.

 

[Mazzaroti78]

I love Randy Savage but if you're gonna tell me that Savage was a better 'in ring' performer than Shawn Michaels you are wrong. If you're telling me that Savage/Steamboat is the greatest match of all-time, you are wrong. It WAS the greatest match until Steamboat and Flair blew it away in a 3 match feud for the ages! Therein lies the problem in comparing HBK to Savage in any way. Savage was not the best worker of his generation, that distinction belongs to either Ricky Steamboat or Nature Boy Ric Flair.

In comparing competition, Warrior and Hogan were two terrible workers and Randy Savage had great matches with them. This is very true but these matches were REHEARSED time and again before the actual matches took place. I will also tell you that HBK gave Hogan the best match of his career when he was pushing 60. Savage, God bless him, could not do that. I'm gonna say that Rick Rude had a better match with Warrior and STOLE the show from Savage/Hogan! Hell, Hogan and Warrior had a better match with each other at WM 6 than they did individually with Savage.

Now lets center on Wrestlemania matches. Savage had four great matches for sure. Against Hogan, Warrior, Steamboat and Flair. All of these matches as I stated earlier were REHEARSED. Ric Flair in his book said this rehearsing pissed him off and brought the match with Savage well below his matches with Steamboat because they never went over anything but the finish and worked their matches by ear as most great workers did in that era.

Before we even get to the Undertaker matches, from a pure wrestling standpoint, the Iron man match with Bret Hart is better than Savage/Steamboat. Anyone who knows wrestling knows your opponent can bring the best or worst out of you. Steamboat was the peak of Savage's in ring greatness. The Hogan and Warrior matches were not on that level, not even close. Conversely, HBK had the best wrestling match I saw with Bret Hart, then topped it with Jericho, then topped that in the triple threat match, then topped that against Angle, Then bested the Angle match against Vince of all people, then elevated John Cena in an absolute gem of a match considering Cena is way more limited than either Warrior or Hogan. Then sends 60+ Ric Flair out of WWE in a 5 star classic and memorable moment in wrestling history, then at the end of his career HBK goes onto have arguably, the two best matches IN THE HISTORY OF WRESTLING as stated by JR, Ric Flair, Rhodes, Meltzer and others.

When your peers and forefathers call you the best that has ever did it, as so many have said about Michaels, I don't know what else could be said.

Savage/Steamboat was the start of a much faster paced wrestling match in the WWF at the time and it changed the WWF landscape. However, in just a few short months the Rockers would come in and blow that style away. We are over a year into HBK's retirement and no one has come close to his stuff at 43/44 years old!

Just to cement the argument with a little icing and a cherry on top. Randy Savage has ONE PWI and ONE Observer MOTY award and that is for the Steamboat match. HBK has won PWI match of the year from 2004-2010(11 total, including one with Diesel!), all of them wrestlemania matches except for the 45 minute match against Cena on Raw(could Savage make u want to see 45 minutes of a cena match?). I could go into his Observer MOTY awards, setting the bar for Hell in a cell and the Ladder Matches but there is enough already to prove the point.

Savage was a BIGGER star and had better charisma but savage is not Mr. Wrestlemania or a better wrestler than HBK. No way, no how and its not even close.

 

[The Brain]

This post is a bit reactionary I think. Two weeks ago no one would have said Randy Savage was Mr. Wrestlemania. It's a shame he died, but let's not go overboard.

Actually I’ve said numerous times since joining these forums over two years ago that Savage is the original Mr. WrestleMania. I’ve never compared him to Michaels, and am not suggesting Michaels should be stripped of his self proclaimed title. I’m just saying, and have said many times, that Savage did it first. WrestleMania was built around Hogan during the early years, but Savage was easily 1A to Hogan’s 1. Oftentimes Savage stole the show. Michaels is perfectly fitting of the title Mr. WrestleMania. He’s just not the original. Now to address some individual comments.

Then at Wrestlemania 5, he managed to put on another great match with a man who wouldn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch, Hulk Hogan, in a match that was the final chapter in a year long saga that saw the Mega Powers rise and fall. Not only did he make Hogan look great, but he made another less than technically sound wrestler look great at Wrestlemania 7, when he was involved in yet another classic in which he gave The Ultimate Warrior the best match of Warrior's career, in the first ever career ending match.

I respect you opinion of Savage, but you’re really selling Hogan and Warrior short. It’s a mistake a lot of people make. Warrior and especially Hogan are not given enough credit for their in ring talent. If both are such terrible workers and needed Savage to carry them to a great match how did they have a great match with each other in between their matches with Savage?

Great post by the OP, I couldn't have said it any better myself.....for anybody who hasn't watched in a while, go back and watch Randy's WM matches...and the aftermath of the Savage/Warrior match...that is what wrestling, not "sports entertainment" is all about....

Absolutely ridiculous comment. I loved the aftermath of Savage vs. Warrior. It’s one of my favorite moments ever. To say that was wrestling and not sports entertainment is just stupid and flat out wrong. Stop thinking sports entertainment is a bad thing. It’s the only thing we’ve ever watched. Savage vs. Warrior is as great definition of sports entertainment.

Macho Man was great but not HBK. Honestly, having Hogan and Warrior around may have diminished him a bit because you did not get to see him do wrestling moves nearly as much as he was capable of doing.

Are you kidding me? Those were two of the biggest matches in mania history. Those guys don’t need to do a bunch of high flying moves to put on a great match. Anyone can do that. They gave you great matches because they could tell a story in the ring.

In comparing competition, Warrior and Hogan were two terrible workers and Randy Savage had great matches with them. This is very true but these matches were REHEARSED time and again before the actual matches took place.

Who cares if they were rehearsed? How could that possibly take any enjoyment out of the match for you as a fan watching? It’s not like you sat in on a rehearsal and knew the outcome because of it. Would you enjoy movies more if the actors would just go out there and wing it without any rehearsal? No because when you’re sitting in the theatre the finished product is all that matters.

 

[Mazzaroti78]

Who cares if they were rehearsed? How could that possibly take any enjoyment out of the match for you as a fan watching? It’s not like you sat in on a rehearsal and knew the outcome because of it. Would you enjoy movies more if the actors would just go out there and wing it without any rehearsal? No because when you’re sitting in the theatre the finished product is all that matters.

Your reply is who cares? Well, Steamboat and Flair cared. To be called THE BEST your peers have to agree. Its not just about the subjective point of view from a fan. The point that those matches were rehearsed was a big deal because wrestlers throughout history only went into matches knowing a few spots and the finish. You want to call Savage the best but he rehearsed every detail. That is a VALID argument that Savage's PEERS have against him. As a fan who cares but for someone to be called Mr. Wrestlemania and the BEST ever as you want to him, you must have your PEERS who know the tricks of the trade, supporting that claim and that is why it matters in judging who or who isn't the best. Savage was known for getting lost in matches that didn't go exactly how he rehearsed/discussed them. While others had the ability to adlib when things go wrong in the ring.