The Golden Calf: John Cena's Failure As A Character

[Harthan]

He is utterly without flaws, and therefore both utterly unrelatable and a poorly conceived character.

Honestly, can John Cena do anything wrong? Kane told him to embrace the hate, but what did he do? He made an angry constipated face, but never struck Ryder, never so much as snapped at Eve, and in the end, handily defeated Kane and dispatched him all the way back to hell. When he lost to the Rock, did he show introspection and reconsider the implications of losing the biggest match of his career? No, of course not. He extended his hand in gracious loss and smiled and laughed his way to Lesnar. Brock Lesnar, the man billed as a machine, the greatest fighter ever, the man who was to bring legitimacy to the WWE. And after resoundingly getting his ass kicked, he overcame Lesnar. The next night, instead of so much as gloating he went on to smile and laugh his way to a match with John Laurinitus. And the process continues. When Big Show betrays him, does he do anything? No, he confronts him reasonably in the ring and asks him why he did it. When his duty becomes clear, he executes it.

And this new storyline with Punk has just put the icing on the cake. He is without temptation. All he has to do is cave in for one half of a second and say that Punk is better than him and he gets a title shot, but no sir. He is so utterly incorruptible, such a bastion of light and virtue that he cannot for an instant give in to a single vice.

It is unbearable.

We're not watching a hero, we're watching a morality play. How can anyone over the age of six relate to this man? He is almost literally an alien. I am a man, and I have flaws. Every great hero has flaws. I'll toss out examples off the top of my head. Aang, The Last Airbender, one of Western anime's greatest heroes. He has a heart of gold and an irrepressible desire to save the world, but he's lazy, overly pacifistic, incapable of understanding women, and frequently fails to achieve his goals. Bruce Wayne, of Nolan's Batman. So obsessed with his desire to bring justice to Gotham that he is incapable of experiencing life as a human being. Consumed by anger to the point where he kills himself rather than confront it. Sydney Carton - an antihero, I'll allow - is a drunk, self-obsessed, and constantly moping, but ultimately sacrifices himself for the happiness of his unrequited love.

These men are heroes, all, precisely because they are flawed. They are men with weaknesses. They are human beings. Their actions are not the only thing that makes them heroes - rather, it is their actions made in spite of their flaws and thereby overcoming them that make them truly heroic. We relate to the great heroes of film and literature by watching human struggles that ultimately end in glory, or at least victory of a kind. These are well developed heroes.

John Cena can't even come close. How in the world am I expected to feel anything for John Cena? For all his joking, we are looking at a cold slab of marble, unshakeable as a rock, incapable of movement from his strict morality. He is unbearable. Jesus Christ himself is more relatable than Cena. Even Christ falls down and bleeds. If John Cena were the main character of the Gospels, he would fashion the cross into a spear and kill all the Romans with it before ascending to space in his laser chariot. He would not bleed, he would not fall, because he is not a mortal man. He is incapable of the failures and transgressions of the common man.

This isn't some kind of anti-establishment, hating the current top dog just because he is kind of thing. This is a criticism of John Cena's failure as a character, an utter and complete disaster of failed art. Have you ever wondered why the children cheer John Cena? It's because they're too young to understand what it is to be flawed. Age cruelly informs us of our faults, our flaws, our mortality. There are two reactions to this, of course - to deny it and live in misguided bliss, or accept it as a noble but unpleasant truth.

John Cena never got the memo. His mortality is forgotten, his faults buried. When we watch John Cena, we look upon not a man, but a statue - a monument to perfection.

We look upon cold stone that cannot touch the hearts of those that know what it is to be human.

 

[The Crock]

Cena's biggest flaw is that he's an average man in a sport dominated by grandiose caricatures of human beings. Would you reduce yourself to acknowledging that an enemy (Punk) is the better man, in return for a shorter road to something you crave (the WWE Championship), when you've been there before? I know I wouldn't. Cena isn't any more of a perfect man than you or I, it's just that he has no real discernible flaws, yet all of his counterparts seemingly do. Like Hogan before him, he's a hero in the truest sense of the word. Instead of eat your vitamins and say your prayers, it's all about loyalty and respect. Funny thing is, there's never been a long line of people firing away at Hogan as a failure of a character.

The core of the problem isn't Cena, it's the expectations of some of today's fans. Wrestling is simple. It's good vs evil, it's cheap entertainment. Cena's the good guy, he's the one we're supposed to look up to. If you can't relate to him because he's too "perfect," then you need to look for a different medium of entertainment. At its very center, wrestling's beauty is in the simplicity that it offers. The greatest characters have been simple -- Hogan (a true hero), Stone Cold (a regular dude), The Rock (self-indulgent superstar). The greatest stories have been simple -- Hogan/Andre (David/Goliath), Austin/McMahon (establishment/rebellion). None of those stories or characters needed layers upon layers to be great, nor did anybody have any issues relating to them.

Maybe you and I just enjoy different things, but I find myself greatly enjoying Cena and I relate to him quite easily. Cena's a normal guy, who loves what he does. He may not have one glaring weakness (though, I'd argue that his love for the WWE and need for approval is a huge weakness), but he's not without weakness either. He faltered at WrestleMania and failed to win because he wanted to upstage The Rock, just as he's lost his patience with the crowd's disapproval before. For the most part, Cena's a level-headed character and a regular man and nowhere near as "perfect" as you claim he is.

 

[LeviCook]

I never looked at it that way until you pointed it out, i agree with you 100%. Cena hasn't always been that way though. He had his flaws up until 2008 hit. Once 2008 hit he became this superhero incapable of doing any injustice. Has his character failed? Not at all. He's not supposed to be the most liked guy. Everything about his character WWE wants. It's what makes him marketable and what makes him John Cena. We all know Cena is long overdue for a heel turn to the point where most of us have given up on such a thing. The least they could do is make Cena more human. And i'm not talking about how much he wins or loses. He needs to react according to the situation he is in. He's to scripted. The best wrestling in my mind is the wrestling that for that one second you forget it's scripted. Cena is the complete opposite of that feeling. Everything he does is so robotic. Like he is programmed to react a certain way. Rather it's acting buddy-buddy with The Rock or just acting completely emotionless altogether.

 

[Harthan]

Cena's biggest flaw is that he's an average man in a sport dominated by grandiose caricatures of human beings.

I'd argue just the opposite. That was true twenty years ago, but look at the names that dominate the art form now. Randy Orton, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan - the names beginning to dominate the industry (other than Cena) are becoming more and more real every day. Orton, Punk, and Bryan, as my examples, all seem like pretty regular dudes. No preposterous physiques. No grandiose missions, no pronouncements of goodness and honor (or in Bryan, the straight heel's case, no outright case of villainy). We're talking about guys who, basically, have had only one goal for years - to compete and be a champion, not go on a moral crusade. They're not Hogans or Austins - they're a new breed. Cena is both a remnant of something forgotten and a new thing unto himself - the result is an over the top caricature of a near demigod, striding the WWE like a colossus.

Would you reduce yourself to acknowledging that an enemy (Punk) is the better man, in return for a shorter road to something you crave (the WWE Championship), when you've been there before? I know I wouldn't.

That. That right there. That's the key. What you've said is you, all the chips on the line, the pressure to have the one thing you've always wanted, you wouldn't given an inch. Can you say that, truly? Can you look in heart, really think about yourself as a person, and believe that you wouldn't do it?

Maybe you can answer that question honestly, once. But the current Cena character, going back to the start of 2012, has been tempted, twisted, and shaken dozens of times and hasn't faltered once. Could you do that? Could you survive Kane, the Rock, Lesnar, Laurinitus, the Big Show, and now Punk and still remain incorruptible?

Cena isn't any more of a perfect man than you or I, it's just that he has no real discernible flaws, yet all of his counterparts seemingly do. Like Hogan before him, he's a hero in the truest sense of the word. Instead of eat your vitamins and say your prayers, it's all about loyalty and respect. Funny thing is, there's never been a long line of people firing away at Hogan as a failure of a character.

On the one hand, Hogan evolved. Hollywood Hogan was brilliant just because of this - it tore away the mask of perfection and got down to the base, gritty human being inside. But even perfect Hogan had faults. This is what I'm saying - he could err. When Andre tore Hogan's cross, we saw a man broken. We saw innocence lost. And his victory was the sweeter for it. When Hogan and Savage exploded, we understood Hogan - he had a friend that had betrayed him - but we saw his faults, too. Had he not been too forward with Elizabeth, after all? No one would say it justified Savage's actions, but it was still there. But more importantly he sold us hurt - he gave us emotion, he related to us the pain at the betrayal of a friend. These are things Cena fails to do. He didn't once lose his cool with Kane. He was never angry with the Rock, not in any believable fashion. Lesnar never got to him. Nothing ever phases the man.

The core of the problem isn't Cena, it's the expectations of some of today's fans. Wrestling is simple. It's good vs evil, it's cheap entertainment. Cena's the good guy, he's the one we're supposed to look up to. If you can't relate to him because he's too "perfect," then you need to look for a different medium of entertainment.

No, I disagree entirely. Wrestling has always had layers of depth to offer for the discerning fan. What I've just described about Hogan, for example. I could give similar arguments for depth in Austin or the Rock, or more. Wrestling has its surface billing, but there is incredible potential for depth. It's the least appreciated aspect. It's what Vince was talking about when he discussed the true beauty of wrestling. Wrestling has all the capability of any other art form to do what only art can do - paint a story of men struggling against each other, reveal aspects of humanity, touch our hearts deeply and profoundly - and to do it in a marvelous, fascinating, and unique way. There is a nobility to this art form that goes so much deeper than what it looks like on the surface. Every great hero before Cena was capable of revealing these depths, but Cena and the writers behind him have failed utterly to bring it out in him.

At its very center, wrestling's beauty is in the simplicity that it offers. The greatest characters have been simple -- Hogan (a true hero), Stone Cold (a regular dude), The Rock (self-indulgent superstar). The greatest stories have been simple -- Hogan/Andre (David/Goliath), Austin/McMahon (establishment/rebellion). None of those stories or characters needed layers upon layers to be great, nor did anybody have any issues relating to them.

There's so much more to these storylines than you're giving credit for. I could obsess over the details of Hogan's feud with Andre, the nuances so far beyond David vs Goliath. What about the themes of the death of innocence, or the hero's duty? Ultimately, everything is revealed in Hogan's human character. Through his faults, we see the depth and artistry of wrestling on display. The same can be said of anything Rock or Austin or any great hero ever did. Their humanity creates art. This is what Cena lacks. There are no faults to examine in him, nothing that speaks to depth. He is exactly what he appears to be; perfect, unrelenting, completely pure.

Maybe you and I just enjoy different things, but I find myself greatly enjoying Cena and I relate to him quite easily. Cena's a normal guy, who loves what he does. He may not have one glaring weakness (though, I'd argue that his love for the WWE and need for approval is a huge weakness), but he's not without weakness either. He faltered at WrestleMania and failed to win because he wanted to upstage The Rock, just as he's lost his patience with the crowd's disapproval before. For the most part, Cena's a level-headed character and a regular man and nowhere near as "perfect" as you claim he is.

Where are the faults in this? Where are the weaknesses? For weaknesses to be revealed, to be meaningful, they have to cost something. Cena lost to the Rock, but what happened? Nothing changed. There was no fundamental change to his character; he was identical to the man he was before. His "loss" to the Rock cost him nothing. In what way, then, was he weak? The same goes for the crowd's disapproval. When has he ever done more than crack a few jokes about it and remind every that whether they like him or not he'll still be all about hustle, loyalty, and respect, he'll still kick ass, he'll still be the WWE Champion, and so on?

When in the current incarnation of Cena's character has he made a mistake? When has anything he's done cost him anything? When has the weaknesses barely even hinted at ever cost him anything - ever been made into existence from half conceived phantoms?

 

[enviousdominous]

That was a good read.

You made the point that the Cena crowd is likely the most naive, which I agree with. Sadly, that section of crowd is more likely to part with their disability pay by buying the newest piece of John Cena merchandise. Even more depressing is the fact that some of us can have a eureka moment and design a critical essay on John Cena that's ad insightful as yours, but it will inevitably be labelled as bullshit by the asshats who fall back on the explanation of "You just don't get it" when confronted with sound logic.

Cena to me is a lab experiment gone horribly wrong. They built him to be a faster, smarter, more entertaining version of The Rock. Cena finds himself in a position of power in that anyone who dares doubt his hype therefore doubts the word of Vince McMahon.

John Cena, for whatever fucking stupid reason, is not aloud to fail.
op Look at his movie career. He plays the same arrogant plank of wood and then his biggest stretch was playing himself in Fred 2. How could this be seen as not a failure? John Cena must have only done movies because it seemed like a fun idea, only to go back to the WWE because he missed it so much. If he wanted to be as big a movie star as The Rock, he could have.

John Cena shrugs off the hatred of the crowd, because he is that devoted to his loyal fans. Wonderful, this is a subtle means of communicating to his naive fanbase that insights like yours are baseless "hate" and that their baseless adoration is completely founded.

The psychology of the business isn't. It's the delusion of order in an asylum of idiocy. These men ate performers, but some fall into a state of madness where their alter-ego survives on playing only one type of character and luckily for Cena, the survival of his superhero persona is a high priority for idiots like Vince and Stephanie. Not to mention Brian Gewirtz, the sorry sack who lives vicariously through Cena.


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[enviousdominous]

Cena's a normal guy, who loves what he does.

. Not trying to be a dick and act like this was your only point. I just have one question. Did you see Cena lose to Orton at Hell in a Cell where Cena no-sold the head punt after the match? A move that put Batista on the kayfabe injured list only dazed Cena for five seconds.
You're a smart guy obviously. Explain what logic there was in having Cena no sell that move.




Posted from Wrestlezone.com App for Android

 

[JGlass]

I don't know if I'd agree that Cena is without flaw. He's certainly more flawed than Jesus Christ, though. Yes, Jesus had his outbursts, but Cena has his flaws as well. We'll get to that later though, but it's important for me to lead off by acknowledging that you're wrong and I disagree strongly.

But let's pretend you're not flat out wrong. Even if Cena is without flaw, that doesn't make him uninteresting. People have been captivated for the unwavering hero for millennia. Jesus, Thor, Gilgamesh, Captain America, Hulk Hogan, Robin Hood, Harry Potter, Superman... the list can go on for days. These are all heroes that are celebrated not because they are flawed, but because we admire their courage to do what we normal people can't. That's why they are heroes.

CM Punk isn't a hero. He was (until recently) an admirable guy that spoke his mind, and that made him cool. But heroes are rarely cool. Heroes are the type of people that don't worry about being cool because being cool often gets in the way of doing the right thing. Occasionally you can be a cool hero (like the Fonz), but most of the time even the cool "heroes" aren't as heroic as they seem to be.

Now, let's talk about Cena's alleged "flawless" character. I would argue that his pride is one of the most well documented character flaws in the WWE. In fact, pride is arguably one of the most common (and effective) heroic flaws throughout history, fictional or otherwise. Cena's pride has gotten in the way of him achieving success many times. He refused to give Wade Barrett the win over Randy Orton, and for that he lost his job. Now he refuses to admit CM Punk is the best in the world, and he won't get his title shot. Does that not qualify as a flaw?

The answer is yes, it does qualify as a flaw, and that you took a very shallow approach to looking at the Cena character. With minimal effort I was able to point out a classic flaw that gives the Cena character more depth than you realize. You mistake him having an ironclad set of morals for him being flawless, but that's not the case. It is his ironclad set of morals that make him flawed, as he refuses to compromise, even when it would benefit him. That's what makes him a hero, and that's why the majority of fans love to watch him.

 

[The Crock]

I'd argue just the opposite. That was true twenty years ago, but look at the names that dominate the art form now. Randy Orton, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan - the names beginning to dominate the industry (other than Cena) are becoming more and more real every day. Orton, Punk, and Bryan, as my examples, all seem like pretty regular dudes. No preposterous physiques. No grandiose missions, no pronouncements of goodness and honor (or in Bryan, the straight heel's case, no outright case of villainy). We're talking about guys who, basically, have had only one goal for years - to compete and be a champion, not go on a moral crusade. They're not Hogans or Austins - they're a new breed. Cena is both a remnant of something forgotten and a new thing unto himself - the result is an over the top caricature of a near demigod, striding the WWE like a colossus.

It's certainly not like it was in the '80s, but wrestling will always be about over the top characters -- Santino Marella, Brodus Clay, and Damien Sandow (to name a few) say as much. To say Cena strides on top of the WWE like a colossus strikes me as odd, though. He's not the champion -- nor has he been for, what, nearly a year -- and he's playing second fiddle to CM Punk. Cena's more of a supporting character now than he has been in years.

That. That right there. That's the key. What you've said is you, all the chips on the line, the pressure to have the one thing you've always wanted, you wouldn't given an inch. Can you say that, truly? Can you look in heart, really think about yourself as a person, and believe that you wouldn't do it?

If I've had it 10+ times before, I wouldn't even hesitate. Cena's been there, done that. On the flip side, Cena showed desperation in needing to beat Rock and proving himself as the greatest of all time. This is speculative, but if Cena/Rock II comes around, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cena willing to give it all up for another chance at Rock.

Maybe you can answer that question honestly, once. But the current Cena character, going back to the start of 2012, has been tempted, twisted, and shaken dozens of times and hasn't faltered once. Could you do that? Could you survive Kane, the Rock, Lesnar, Laurinitus, the Big Show, and now Punk and still remain incorruptible?

That's the point, though. Cena's a normal guy with an iron will. He won't falter until someone truly pushes him to the edge. When that happens, we'll begin to see the next evolution of the John Cena character. This is the road to that.

On the one hand, Hogan evolved. Hollywood Hogan was brilliant just because of this - it tore away the mask of perfection and got down to the base, gritty human being inside. But even perfect Hogan had faults. This is what I'm saying - he could err. When Andre tore Hogan's cross, we saw a man broken. We saw innocence lost. And his victory was the sweeter for it. When Hogan and Savage exploded, we understood Hogan - he had a friend that had betrayed him - but we saw his faults, too. Had he not been too forward with Elizabeth, after all? No one would say it justified Savage's actions, but it was still there. But more importantly he sold us hurt - he gave us emotion, he related to us the pain at the betrayal of a friend. These are things Cena fails to do. He didn't once lose his cool with Kane. He was never angry with the Rock, not in any believable fashion. Lesnar never got to him. Nothing ever phases the man.

Cena's never been broken? He's never been mad? He's never made you feel emotion? Every single one of John Cena's promos against Rock -- even his most recent one against Punk -- dripped with emotion. They showed what the Cena character was about -- what is it that pushes Cena to his limit and makes him tick?

To say he was never angry against Rock is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on WrestleZone, period. Cena sold his anger better than most anybody else in the business could.

No, I disagree entirely. Wrestling has always had layers of depth to offer for the discerning fan. What I've just described about Hogan, for example. I could give similar arguments for depth in Austin or the Rock, or more. Wrestling has its surface billing, but there is incredible potential for depth. It's the least appreciated aspect. It's what Vince was talking about when he discussed the true beauty of wrestling. Wrestling has all the capability of any other art form to do what only art can do - paint a story of men struggling against each other, reveal aspects of humanity, touch our hearts deeply and profoundly - and to do it in a marvelous, fascinating, and unique way. There is a nobility to this art form that goes so much deeper than what it looks like on the surface. Every great hero before Cena was capable of revealing these depths, but Cena and the writers behind him have failed utterly to bring it out in him.

Wrestling can tell a fine story, but I will always maintain that its simplicity is what keeps people coming back for more. You can have a story that has as many layers as an onion, next to one that is as straightforward as one guy wanting to beat the other -- when done correctly, both stories can produce entertainment for the fans. The thing is, without over analyzing them, look back at some of wrestling's greatest stories ever told -- they're all very simple and relatable.

There's so much more to these storylines than you're giving credit for. I could obsess over the details of Hogan's feud with Andre, the nuances so far beyond David vs Goliath. What about the themes of the death of innocence, or the hero's duty? Ultimately, everything is revealed in Hogan's human character. Through his faults, we see the depth and artistry of wrestling on display. The same can be said of anything Rock or Austin or any great hero ever did. Their humanity creates art. This is what Cena lacks. There are no faults to examine in him, nothing that speaks to depth. He is exactly what he appears to be; perfect, unrelenting, completely pure.

Their ability to tell any story is what creates art, nothing more. Cena can tell any story he wants in the ring. Why? Because he's good at what he does. He doesn't need to explore any of the themes you listed, as long as he can tell me any story as simple as good vs evil. It's not about exploring obscure themes, it's more about effective delivery. Cena has mastered -- as a plethora of people will tell you -- delivering a good story.

Where are the faults in this? Where are the weaknesses? For weaknesses to be revealed, to be meaningful, they have to cost something. Cena lost to the Rock, but what happened? Nothing changed. There was no fundamental change to his character; he was identical to the man he was before. His "loss" to the Rock cost him nothing. In what way, then, was he weak? The same goes for the crowd's disapproval. When has he ever done more than crack a few jokes about it and remind every that whether they like him or not he'll still be all about hustle, loyalty, and respect, he'll still kick ass, he'll still be the WWE Champion, and so on?

When in the current incarnation of Cena's character has he made a mistake? When has anything he's done cost him anything? When has the weaknesses barely even hinted at ever cost him anything - ever been made into existence from half conceived phantoms?

The story between Rock and Cena likely isn't finished, but his loss to Rocky revealed to me that he still wasn't "the greatest" as long as Rock was around. Everything Cena had worked for, his right to be known as the top dog in his profession was ripped from him. The look on his face after his match against Rock told me more than enough about what that match had meant to Cena.

Cena's made just as many perceived "mistakes" as any top guy before him. He's lost his fair share of matches, failed to live up to his word on a few occasions -- I just don't know what more you need.

 

[The Crock]

. Not trying to be a dick and act like this was your only point. I just have one question. Did you see Cena lose to Orton at Hell in a Cell where Cena no-sold the head punt after the match? A move that put Batista on the kayfabe injured list only dazed Cena for five seconds.
You're a smart guy obviously. Explain what logic there was in having Cena no sell that move.




Posted from Wrestlezone.com App for Android

It was enough to cost him the WWE Championship, wasn't it? One of Cena's greatest strengths as a character is his perseverance and toughness -- even he couldn't completely take the punt unfazed. I get what you're saying, but that's not a problem with Cena's character, as much as it is a flaw in booking.

Still, it's not like Cena completely no-sold the move. Orton was able to pin and defeat Cena for the WWE Championship -- which is no small feat. Hell, pinning any top guy -- especially for a championship -- is huge. Though, Cena loses quite regularly, even if the IWC hates to admit it.

The punt did its job against Cena. I see no issue with it.

 

[SacredMesa]

That's the point, though. Cena's a normal guy with an iron will. He won't falter until someone truly pushes him to the edge. When that happens, we'll begin to see the next evolution of the John Cena character. This is the road to that.

So let's see, we've seen Edge invade his fathers home and slap him in the face, we've seen Randy Orton pull his father into the arena floor and punt his head while forcing Cena to watch hand cuffed to the ring, we saw The Rock beat him in the middle of the ring in what was suppose to be the all important match of his life time that would define who he was as a wrestler. We've seen CM Punk blatantly state the only reason he is where he is was because of how he kissed Vince McMahon's ass while exposing his whole "I'm the underdog" garbage. We've seen Kane attack his friends in Zack Ryder and severly injuring him and we've seen one of his best friends in The Big Show stab him in the back and go on a rampage.

So to recap wrestlers have...

Attacked his friends
Attacked his family
Attacked his ability and questioned if he really worked for his spot
Defeat him in what was suppose to be his career defining moment
Had friends out right betray him
Expose his "underdog" mentality
All this while having fans boo him out of the building and chant "you can't wrestle" at him


There is literally nothing left to test or tempt Cena with. Hell Satan directly tempted Christ and even he didn't throw as much at him as the WWE has at Cena. At this point there is so much that has been done to him even if/when he does eventually turn heel it won't be believable. What is he going to turn heel because the fans booed him after saying it wasn't an issue for years?

Cena's never been broken? He's never been mad? He's never made you feel emotion? Every single one of John Cena's promos against Rock -- even his most recent one against Punk -- dripped with emotion. They showed what the Cena character was about -- what is it that pushes Cena to his limit and makes him tick?

To say he was never angry against Rock is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on WrestleZone, period. Cena sold his anger better than most anybody else in the business could.

Really? He showed emotion towards The Rock? In what by laughing when the rock is glaring at his dead center? By having a 2 minute rap? Perhaps the coming out saying a half paragraph promo and pointing out the Rocks promo lines on his wrist? Oh wait no, no he didn't. Even when he gave his "this one match defines my career" speech in the empty stadium is was truly devoid of any real emotion that made it believable. It was one note flat and sounded like they just gave the teleprompter a voice.

 

[JGlass]

I'd argue just the opposite. That was true twenty years ago, but look at the names that dominate the art form now. Randy Orton, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan - the names beginning to dominate the industry (other than Cena) are becoming more and more real every day. Orton, Punk, and Bryan, as my examples, all seem like pretty regular dudes. No preposterous physiques. No grandiose missions, no pronouncements of goodness and honor (or in Bryan, the straight heel's case, no outright case of villainy). We're talking about guys who, basically, have had only one goal for years - to compete and be a champion, not go on a moral crusade. They're not Hogans or Austins - they're a new breed. Cena is both a remnant of something forgotten and a new thing unto himself - the result is an over the top caricature of a near demigod, striding the WWE like a colossus.

You're joking, right? Randy Orton, the man with ridiculous anger management issues that leads to him attacking friend and foe alike, is a regular dude? Daniel Bryan, the guy that gets into one word shouting matches with the audience and is pretty much obsessed with his own sanity, is a normal guy? The entire appeal of CM Punk is that he's the type of character that you don't see in real life: a guy that says what's on his mind no matter what and throws consequence to the wind. If he disagrees with his boss, he humiliates him. If he thinks he got a raw deal, he storms to the responsible party and complains to them about it.

Cena isn't necessarily any more approachable than the aforementioned trio, but he certainly isn't less approachable.

 

[enviousdominous]

Now he refuses to admit CM Punk is the best in the world, and he won't get his title shot. Does that not qualify as a flaw?

The answer is yes, it does qualify as a flaw, and that you took a very shallow approach to looking at the Cena character.

Wrestling fans and politicians, two people you can never have a fair and open minded argument with.

The answer is that it's a matter of opinion based on your level of insight.

John Cena refuses to say that Punk is the best in the world, and is denied the belt because of that. Well who gives a shit about a belt when reputation is at stake? A flaw, unto the arrogant ass that is Cena, would be admitting that anyone is more capable than him. This of course devalued the WWE title and only means that when Cena does face Punk for the belt it'll an indecisive finish unless Cena wins.

It wasn't a flaw because in the end Cena is only saying that world title or no world title, nothing beats the five knuckle shuffle.



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[The Crock]

So let's see, we've seen Edge invade his fathers home and slap him in the face, we've seen Randy Orton pull his father into the arena floor and punt his head while forcing Cena to watch hand cuffed to the ring, we saw The Rock beat him in the middle of the ring in what was suppose to be the all important match of his life time that would define who he was as a wrestler. We've seen CM Punk blatantly state the only reason he is where he is was because of how he kissed Vince McMahon's ass while exposing his whole "I'm the underdog" garbage. We've seen Kane attack his friends in Zack Ryder and severly injuring him and we've seen one of his best friends in The Big Show stab him in the back and go on a rampage.

So to recap wrestlers have...

Attacked his friends
Attacked his family
Attacked his ability and questioned if he really worked for his spot
Defeat him in what was suppose to be his career defining moment
Had friends out right betray him
Expose his "underdog" mentality
All this while having fans boo him out of the building and chant "you can't wrestle" at him


There is literally nothing left to test or tempt Cena with. Hell Satan directly tempted Christ and even he didn't throw as much at him as the WWE has at Cena. At this point there is so much that has been done to him even if/when he does eventually turn heel it won't be believable. What is he going to turn heel because the fans booed him after saying it wasn't an issue for years?

I almost stopped reading this bullshit once I saw the words "heel turn." Why must EVERYFUCKINGTHING involving Cena devolve to discussion about a potential heel turn? Cena's whole mantra is all about perseverance. That's the point. He stares adversity in the face and comes back as strong as he can. That's his character. Get it?

Really? He showed emotion towards The Rock? In what by laughing when the rock is glaring at his dead center? By having a 2 minute rap? Perhaps the coming out saying a half paragraph promo and pointing out the Rocks promo lines on his wrist? Oh wait no, no he didn't. Even when he gave his "this one match defines my career" speech in the empty stadium is was truly devoid of any real emotion that made it believable. It was one note flat and sounded like they just gave the teleprompter a voice.

Yeah, you're right. Cutting promos on Rock for one year, and not a single one contained any emotion in them...

...boy, that sure sounds ridiculous. Did you actually watch any of the build toward Cena/Rock at WrestleMania? Cena consistently brought his best every night, and poured his soul out to the people. To claim that it was completely devoid of emotion is asinine.

 

[enviousdominous]

I get what you're saying, but that's not a problem with Cena's character, as much as it is a flaw in booking.

Still, it's not like Cena completely no-sold the move.

You obviously don't get what I'm saying.

Cena's "character" can shrug off a career ending move, and you don't see that as a flaw in a world where that's disrespectful toward anyone who sold it like a professional.

Obviously we're looking at this from two different perspectives.

If I'm of sound mind, I watch the show knowing that it's a performance where some amount of belief has to be maintained. I don't just accept everything I'm fed.

If Batista is put on the kayfabe injured list for taking the head punt, I accept the head punt as a devastating move. This isn't a stretch.

Then I'm expected to mentally digest the notion that Cena is so physically awesome that, while he did get pinned, was able to stand up on his own and stare down Orton as he left with no sign of physical agony. You accept that, I don't.

Cena gave up a fair pin, so being the arrogant sack of shit that he is he had to have something for his ego to be proud of. Am I being pessimistic or realistic?



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[SacredMesa]

I almost stopped reading this bullshit once I saw the words "heel turn." Why must EVERYFUCKINGTHING involving Cena devolve to discussion about a potential heel turn? Cena's whole mantra is all about perseverance. That's the point. He stares adversity in the face and comes back as strong as he can. That's his character. Get it?

You're the one not getting it. We understand that is his character, we are pointing out why it is failed character design. A completely unrelatable character that shows zero human weakness isn't good. Hell the "Danger Will Robinson" robot was more relatable than Cena was. If you don't understand that we get his character we are stating the issues with it's design you need to stop posting.

Yeah, you're right. Cutting promos on Rock for one year, and not a single one contained any emotion in them...

...boy, that sure sounds ridiculous. Did you actually watch any of the build toward Cena/Rock at WrestleMania? Cena consistently brought his best every night, and poured his soul out to the people. To claim that it was completely devoid of emotion is asinine

Time spent =/= quality of the out come. It doesn't matter how long he tried to build to shoot his mouth off at The Rock or even how much he "pours his soul out to the people" if it comes off stale, dry, bland, and emotionless it doesn't matter.

 

[Harthan]

I don't know if I'd agree that Cena is without flaw. He's certainly more flawed than Jesus Christ, though. Yes, Jesus had his outbursts, but Cena has his flaws as well. We'll get to that later though, but it's important for me to lead off by acknowledging that you're wrong and I disagree strongly.

Is he really? Like I said before, Christ falls. Cena doesn't even do that. Or, perhaps this will work better - he falls, but his response is different. Christ falls, but gets back up as a fairly pedestrian reminder of all things good and iron-willed. Cena falls, but he barely acknowledges that he falls. And his only fall was against the Rock, and afterwards, his response was essentially: "Shit, naw, I ain't never fell, watch me beat the FUCK out of Brock Lesnar".

But let's pretend you're not flat out wrong. Even if Cena is without flaw, that doesn't make him uninteresting. People have been captivated for the unwavering hero for millennia. Jesus, Thor, Gilgamesh, Captain America, Hulk Hogan, Robin Hood, Harry Potter, Superman... the list can go on for days. These are all heroes that are celebrated not because they are flawed, but because we admire their courage to do what we normal people can't. That's why they are heroes.

Christ is flawed. That's the whole point of Christ. He's a mortal man. The entire narrative is a coup of religious fallacy. The reason Christianity is so successful is because it's central character is so gosh darned relatable. And look at all the things he does wrong. He loses his temper, he falls down on his way up the hill, so on, so forth. He doesn't "sin", sure, but he makes mistakes.

I've already explained Hogan time and time again - he also had relatable human flaws. What's the most iconic moment of WWF Hogan's career? I'd argue it's his cross being ripped off - the moment his innocence was torn asunder, the moment we realized that what stood before us what not a god, but a man. That event humanized Hogan. What in 2012 Cena is even close to that?

Let's take a third. Harry Potter? Harry's plenty fucked up. He's got a god complex, for one thing, he hasn't got the first clue as how to handle a relationship, and he is ultimately willing to sacrifice anything for his goals. He's downright dark in places in Deathly Hallows.

CM Punk isn't a hero. He was (until recently) an admirable guy that spoke his mind, and that made him cool. But heroes are rarely cool. Heroes are the type of people that don't worry about being cool because being cool often gets in the way of doing the right thing. Occasionally you can be a cool hero (like the Fonz), but most of the time even the cool "heroes" aren't as heroic as they seem to be.

I don't even know how you can say this. CM Punk is positively a hero. What about him (post Raw 1000 notwithstandng) was not heroic? He fought the system in John Laurinitus until the fight was taken over by new hands. He overcame Chris Jericho, and then Daniel Bryan.

Now, let's talk about Cena's alleged "flawless" character. I would argue that his pride is one of the most well documented character flaws in the WWE. In fact, pride is arguably one of the most common (and effective) heroic flaws throughout history, fictional or otherwise. Cena's pride has gotten in the way of him achieving success many times. He refused to give Wade Barrett the win over Randy Orton, and for that he lost his job. Now he refuses to admit CM Punk is the best in the world, and he won't get his title shot. Does that not qualify as a flaw?

No, you're seeing it all wrong. For pride to be a flaw, it has to cost something. Macbeth's pride was a flaw. Cena's pride isn't, because what the hell has it ever cost him? When he refused to give into Wade Barret, oh, sure, he lost his job. Then appeared masked on every house show and ran in on every Raw until he got a PPV match to be reinstated, and then won. Are you kidding me? His pride never hurt him in the slightest.

With CM Punk, I guaran-damn-tee you this storyline ends with him getting a title shot without ever saying he's the best in the world. And saying it would be a flaw, obviously. It's a flaw to give into your enemies when they dangle a prize in front of your face. This is an obvious trope of film and literature as old as the ages.

The answer is yes, it does qualify as a flaw,

No, because it never hurt him.

and that you took a very shallow approach to looking at the Cena character. With minimal effort I was able to point out a classic flaw that gives the Cena character more depth than you realize.

No, actually, you just don't understand what flaws actually are.

You mistake him having an ironclad set of morals for him being flawless, but that's not the case. It is his ironclad set of morals that make him flawed, as he refuses to compromise, even when it would benefit him. That's what makes him a hero, and that's why the majority of fans love to watch him.

Once again, only true if his unwillingness to compromise had ever cost him anything, ever, which it never has (in the present incarnation of the character, as always).

You're joking, right? Randy Orton, the man with ridiculous anger management issues that leads to him attacking friend and foe alike, is a regular dude? Daniel Bryan, the guy that gets into one word shouting matches with the audience and is pretty much obsessed with his own sanity, is a normal guy? The entire appeal of CM Punk is that he's the type of character that you don't see in real life: a guy that says what's on his mind no matter what and throws consequence to the wind. If he disagrees with his boss, he humiliates him. If he thinks he got a raw deal, he storms to the responsible party and complains to them about it.

Cena isn't necessarily any more approachable than the aforementioned trio, but he certainly isn't less approachable.

Certainly not. You're overemphasizing miniscule aspects of the characters that are afterthoughts, lip service to forgotten days. How often is Orton talked up as a psycopath these days? Never. He just wrestles. What was his feud with Kane even about, at first? Nothing special. Daniel Bryan has a catchphrase, but at the end of the day, all he's ever been about since turning heel was chasing the gold and pursuing a relationship. He could pass as any average UFC fighter. I'll grant that Punk does some exceptional things, but again, what is he really about, at the end of the day? Just being the best in the world.

These guys don't have massive complicated personalities or huge obvious gimmicks. They have a handful of buzzwords and catchphrases, but ultimately, they're just about chasing gold and glory.

I fear the conversation is starting to stray from what I'm talking about. This isn't anything to do with John Cena as a person, or any variety of what it is to be a professional and sell a move, or anything backstage, so on and so forth. This is, instead, a conversation about him as a character. I'm discussing what lies strictly in the realm of kayfabe.

 

[The Crock]

You obviously don't get what I'm saying.

Cena's "character" can shrug off a career ending move, and you don't see that as a flaw in a world where that's disrespectful toward anyone who sold it like a professional.

Obviously we're looking at this from two different perspectives.

If I'm of sound mind, I watch the show knowing that it's a performance where some amount of belief has to be maintained. I don't just accept everything I'm fed.

If Batista is put on the kayfabe injured list for taking the head punt, I accept the head punt as a devastating move. This isn't a stretch.

Then I'm expected to mentally digest the notion that Cena is so physically awesome that, while he did get pinned, was able to stand up on his own and stare down Orton as he left with no sign of physical agony. You accept that, I don't.

Cena gave up a fair pin, so being the arrogant sack of shit that he is he had to have something for his ego to be proud of. Am I being pessimistic or realistic?



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Are we forgetting that Cena's told what to do, just like Batista and Orton were.

You're being a pessimist. I highly doubt that John Cena plays this game of give and take in making sure he comes off looking good. For fuck's sake, he put over Tensai (a total jobber) and had no reason to do so. We like to paint Cena as this evil guy who's holding back the business, but he's the exact opposite. He does whatever is asked of him to preserve the sanctity of the business.

So, forgive me if I can't help but give a grand total of zero -- yes, zero! -- fucks that he didn't stay down long enough after Orton's punt. That proves nothing about Cena's character, at all.

You're the one not getting it. We understand that is his character, we are pointing out why it is failed character design. A completely unrelatable character that shows zero human weakness isn't good. Hell the "Danger Will Robinson" robot was more relatable than Cena was. If you don't understand that we get his character we are stating the issues with it's design you need to stop posting.

But he has weaknesses, we've already established this. We've also established that there are plenty of people who can relate to the Cena character. He doesn't need to have a glaring weakness that can render him useless at any moment to prove this.

Time spent =/= quality of the out come. It doesn't matter how long he tried to build to shoot his mouth off at The Rock or even how much he "pours his soul out to the people" if it comes off stale, dry, bland, and emotionless it doesn't matter.

Except, you know, everybody and their mother could see the emotion coming from those promos.

 

[JGlass]

Is he really? Like I said before, Christ falls. Cena doesn't even do that. Or, perhaps this will work better - he falls, but his response is different. Christ falls, but gets back up as a fairly pedestrian reminder of all things good and iron-willed. Cena falls, but he barely acknowledges that he falls. And his only fall was against the Rock, and afterwards, his response was essentially: "Shit, naw, I ain't never fell, watch me beat the FUCK out of Brock Lesnar".

That was hardly his reaction to The Rock loss. The Lesnar rebound worked because he never once contemplated losing to The Rock (as he shouldn't have), and he showed that he's still a force by beating Lesnar.

Christ's martyrdom is an hardly a fair comparison for John Cena, though. You're taking the Great Wall of China and comparing it to the gates in my backyard. They're well built gates that get the job done, but it's hardly the pinnacle of human achievement.

Nonetheless, Cena's biggest fall came when he refused to hand Wade Barrett the match at SurvivorSeries 2010 and he got fired from the WWE. Handling of the angle aside, John Cena lost his job because he refused to compromise on his beliefs. There's your martyrdom.

Christ is flawed. That's the whole point of Christ. He's a mortal man. The entire narrative is a coup of religious fallacy. The reason Christianity is so successful is because it's central character is so gosh darned relatable. And look at all the things he does wrong. He loses his temper, he falls down on his way up the hill, so on, so forth. He doesn't "sin", sure, but he makes mistakes.

Not true. The reason Christianity is so successful is because it was the only sect of Christ-worshiping religions that allowed non-Jewish converts. After a Roman emperor decided to embrace it, it was able to become the most popular religion in the West, which set it up for becoming the most popular religion in the world after they broke through those darned Dark Ages.

People don't worship Christ because they think he's an okay fella. They worship Christ because they believe he's the son of God. I mean, he is an okay fella, but even if he never fell, they'd still worship him.

What were we talking about again? Oh, right, professional wrestling.

I've already explained Hogan time and time again - he also had relatable human flaws. What's the most iconic moment of WWF Hogan's career? I'd argue it's his cross being ripped off - the moment his innocence was torn asunder, the moment we realized that what stood before us what not a god, but a man. That event humanized Hogan. What in 2012 Cena is even close to that?

I'm pretty sure the most iconic moment of Hogan's career came when he body slammed Andre the Giant. Arguing anything else is cute, but naive.

Let's take a third. Harry Potter? Harry's plenty fucked up. He's got a god complex, for one thing, he hasn't got the first clue as how to handle a relationship, and he is ultimately willing to sacrifice anything for his goals. He's downright dark in places in Deathly Hallows.

1) God Complex- You don't think Cena has a superiority complex? He JUST refused to admit he's not as good as the WWE Champion. By definition the WWE Champion is the best in the WWE, and Cena still thinks he's better. Not to mention the whole Rock thing where he never thought he'd lose.

2) Handling a relationship- Cena's marriage. Or, in kayfabe, his friendship with Zack Ryder.

3) Willing to sacrifice anything for his goals- You don't think the flip side, being unwilling to make sacrifices for your goals isn't an interesting flaw?

I don't even know how you can say this. CM Punk is positively a hero. What about him (post Raw 1000 notwithstandng) was not heroic? He fought the system in John Laurinitus until the fight was taken over by new hands. He overcame Chris Jericho, and then Daniel Bryan.

Because he didn't fight those guys for anyone but himself. If selfishness gets your pants tight, that's totally cool, but John Cena fights to show the WWE Universe that you don't have to compromise to get to the top. CM Punk is too concerned with being edgy and cool to worry about the message he sends.

No, you're seeing it all wrong. For pride to be a flaw, it has to cost something. Macbeth's pride was a flaw. Cena's pride isn't, because what the hell has it ever cost him? When he refused to give into Wade Barret, oh, sure, he lost his job. Then appeared masked on every house show and ran in on every Raw until he got a PPV match to be reinstated, and then won. Are you kidding me? His pride never hurt him in the slightest.

The WWE's handling of the angle is hardly the fault of John Cena. Losing his job is absolutely a cost of being pride. He also just sacrificed his title shot for pride, and this isn't the first time either.

The Cena character represents more than he has time to display. You say that Cena didn't really lose anything when he was fired because he came back as a masked man. If the WWE could have afforded to keep Cena out of the business for a few months, I'm sure they would have, but they couldn't. Cena is the cash cow for the WWE, and without him they'd be losing money in ticket and merchandise sales. The important thing is that when he did get fired it felt like a huge loss, a huge failure, but a victory for Cena's moral code. That's what's important. When Captain America was murdered it was a failure for his side of the Civil War and a failure for America, but it was a moral victory for all the superheroes of the Marvel Universe whom were united under their fallen hero.

With CM Punk, I guaran-damn-tee you this storyline ends with him getting a title shot without ever saying he's the best in the world. And saying it would be a flaw, obviously. It's a flaw to give into your enemies when they dangle a prize in front of your face. This is an obvious trope of film and literature as old as the ages.

It absolutely does, but once again, that's because of the money aspect of the situation. If you paid for WWE a year at a time, Cena wouldn't get his title shot this go round, because that would make for a better story. However, this is wrestling, and the WWE can't afford to have Cena not in the main event right now. That's just the way it works.

No, because it never hurt him.

You're letting the business of wrestling mar the story.

No, actually, you just don't understand what flaws actually are.

I understand flaws perfectly fine. I think the problem is that you have poorly defined what a hero is and what makes one interesting.

Once again, only true if his unwillingness to compromise had ever cost him anything, ever, which it never has (in the present incarnation of the character, as always).

Blah blah blah, you say it hasn't cost him, I say it does. Let's keep doing this all day.

Certainly not. You're overemphasizing miniscule aspects of the characters that are afterthoughts, lip service to forgotten days. How often is Orton talked up as a psycopath these days? Never.

Not since his return, but JUST before he got suspended he attacked Sheamus.

Daniel Bryan has a catchphrase, but at the end of the day, all he's ever been about since turning heel was chasing the gold and pursuing a relationship. He could pass as any average UFC fighter.

By being an absolute maniac that yells the same word over and over again. The catchphrase has become an integral part of his character, you can't separate the two.

I'll grant that Punk does some exceptional things, but again, what is he really about, at the end of the day? Just being the best in the world.

How many people do you know in real life that strive to be considered the best in the world at what they do? When you think about it, almost nobody. Most people just want to make money, go home, and get laid. Some people strive to make an impact at what they love, but few try to become the best in the world.

Cena's existence of proving that you can succeed without compromising on your morals is much more realistic than Punk's existence of proving elitism. Much more heroic as well.

These guys don't have massive complicated personalities or huge obvious gimmicks. They have a handful of buzzwords and catchphrases, but ultimately, they're just about chasing gold and glory.

And Cena isn't? I think that when you get down to it, that's what almost every wrestler is about. What makes them different from each other is the journeys they take to get there. CM Punk's journey is about proving he's the best. Orton's journey is about taking out anyone in his path, friend or foe. Cena's journey is about getting to the top without compromising on his morals. They all make for compelling stories. Why you think Cena's doesn't is baffling to me.

 

[enviousdominous]

Are we forgetting that Cena's told what to do, just like Batista and Orton were.

You're being a pessimist. I highly doubt that John Cena plays this game of give and take in making sure he comes off looking good. For fuck's sake, he put over Tensai (a total jobber) and had no reason to do so.

Good grief. Based on your level of vocabulary and grammar, I have to assume that you're just blind and not fucking stupid.

John Cena "put over" Tensai? Really? This is where assuming that you're not stupid is a challenge for me.

How much interference was there in the Tensai match? You had damn near everyone with a grudge against Cena and Sakamoto get their shots in, not to mention the fact that prior to this Tensai was not a jobber.

Cena put himself over by enduring an excessive amount of damage from the WWE's newest attempt to jump a fucking shark, next week he was fine.

Getting back to the original point. You obviously think that Cena just does what he's told and the fans decide how his character will be treated, for that I pity you.



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[Harthan]

That was hardly his reaction to The Rock loss. The Lesnar rebound worked because he never once contemplated losing to The Rock (as he shouldn't have), and he showed that he's still a force by beating Lesnar.

Cena called it a must win. Explain to me clearly what changed about John Cena before the loss and after the loss.

I'll wait.

Christ's martyrdom is an hardly a fair comparison for John Cena, though. You're taking the Great Wall of China and comparing it to the gates in my backyard. They're well built gates that get the job done, but it's hardly the pinnacle of human achievement.

Nonetheless, Cena's biggest fall came when he refused to hand Wade Barrett the match at SurvivorSeries 2010 and he got fired from the WWE. Handling of the angle aside, John Cena lost his job because he refused to compromise on his beliefs. There's your martyrdom.

But he bloody well didn't lose his job, don't you get it? He was on Raw every week. He did whatever he wanted. He publicly gallivanted the Juan Cena gimmick. He was on the next PPV. Nothing changed.

Not true. The reason Christianity is so successful is because it was the only sect of Christ-worshiping religions that allowed non-Jewish converts. After a Roman emperor decided to embrace it, it was able to become the most popular religion in the West, which set it up for becoming the most popular religion in the world after they broke through those darned Dark Ages.

People don't worship Christ because they think he's an okay fella. They worship Christ because they believe he's the son of God. I mean, he is an okay fella, but even if he never fell, they'd still worship him.

What were we talking about again? Oh, right, professional wrestling.

Whatever. Irrelevant side conversation.

I'm pretty sure the most iconic moment of Hogan's career came when he body slammed Andre the Giant. Arguing anything else is cute, but naive.

Tearing off the cross is the only thing that made Hogan slamming Andre at all notable. Do you remember when El Canek slammed Andre? I sure as hell don't.

1) God Complex- You don't think Cena has a superiority complex? He JUST refused to admit he's not as good as the WWE Champion. By definition the WWE Champion is the best in the WWE, and Cena still thinks he's better. Not to mention the whole Rock thing where he never thought he'd lose.

2) Handling a relationship- Cena's marriage. Or, in kayfabe, his friendship with Zack Ryder.

3) Willing to sacrifice anything for his goals- You don't think the flip side, being unwilling to make sacrifices for your goals isn't an interesting flaw?

How. Many. Times. Do. I. Have. To. Say. It.

None of these so called flaws has ever cost Cena anything. At all. Ever. They therefore are not flaws.

Because he didn't fight those guys for anyone but himself. If selfishness gets your pants tight, that's totally cool, but John Cena fights to show the WWE Universe that you don't have to compromise to get to the top. CM Punk is too concerned with being edgy and cool to worry about the message he sends.

And again, what does this lead to? John Cena being an uninteresting, unrelatable block of stone without fault who pretends that the world is a place where everything will be perfect as long as you stick to your convictions. Punk, meanwhile, understands reality and does what must be done.

The WWE's handling of the angle is hardly the fault of John Cena. Losing his job is absolutely a cost of being pride. He also just sacrificed his title shot for pride, and this isn't the first time either.

I'm concerned you're not having the same conversation I'm having. This is a collective criticism of John Cena as a character and as art, both due to his portrayal by Cena himself and the events he is written into. Therefore, the way WWE handled the angle is of paramount importance and supremely relevant to the discussion I'm trying to have.

The Cena character represents more than he has time to display. You say that Cena didn't really lose anything when he was fired because he came back as a masked man. If the WWE could have afforded to keep Cena out of the business for a few months, I'm sure they would have, but they couldn't. Cena is the cash cow for the WWE, and without him they'd be losing money in ticket and merchandise sales. The important thing is that when he did get fired it felt like a huge loss, a huge failure, but a victory for Cena's moral code. That's what's important. When Captain America was murdered it was a failure for his side of the Civil War and a failure for America, but it was a moral victory for all the superheroes of the Marvel Universe whom were united under their fallen hero.

It absolutely does, but once again, that's because of the money aspect of the situation. If you paid for WWE a year at a time, Cena wouldn't get his title shot this go round, because that would make for a better story. However, this is wrestling, and the WWE can't afford to have Cena not in the main event right now. That's just the way it works.



You're letting the business of wrestling mar the story.

Don't care. I will never care about the money conversation. This is art, and I will discuss art for art's sake.

I understand flaws perfectly fine. I think the problem is that you have poorly defined what a hero is and what makes one interesting.

A hero is someone who does something heroic. A good, interesting hero is a person with flaws. Good enough?

Blah blah blah, you say it hasn't cost him, I say it does. Let's keep doing this all day.

Except you haven't produced relevant evidence of Cena being cost anything.

Not since his return, but JUST before he got suspended he attacked Sheamus.

By being an absolute maniac that yells the same word over and over again. The catchphrase has become an integral part of his character, you can't separate the two.

I can actually, quite easily. It isn't part of his character, it's just a gimmick. His character is something else entirely.

How many people do you know in real life that strive to be considered the best in the world at what they do? When you think about it, almost nobody. Most people just want to make money, go home, and get laid. Some people strive to make an impact at what they love, but few try to become the best in the world.

I know lots. I hang around motivated people a lot. I am a motivated person. It's a pretty normal thing.

Cena's existence of proving that you can succeed without compromising on your morals is much more realistic than Punk's existence of proving elitism. Much more heroic as well.

Cena's story rings false. The human experience does not contain many real examples of people clinging desperately to their ideals and everything working out in the end. Ultimately, we are creatures that adapt and change to the faults of the people around us and our own and strive to overcome them, making Punk's story infinitely more compelling.

And Cena isn't? I think that when you get down to it, that's what almost every wrestler is about. What makes them different from each other is the journeys they take to get there. CM Punk's journey is about proving he's the best. Orton's journey is about taking out anyone in his path, friend or foe. Cena's journey is about getting to the top without compromising on his morals. They all make for compelling stories. Why you think Cena's doesn't is baffling to me.

Cena definitely isn't. Cena is about pushing the agenda of himself. The title is a prop for him, not the goal. His concern is consistently reminding everyone how utterly faultless he is.

The colossus with a mouth, if you will.

 

[SacredMesa]

But he has weaknesses, we've already established this. We've also established that there are plenty of people who can relate to the Cena character. He doesn't need to have a glaring weakness that can render him useless at any moment to prove this.

Really because so far outside of kids I can't really find anyone relating to him on any level. Not only that but you have failed to establish any flaw or weakness in his character you just stated "he has them" but fail to actually mention or state them. That doesn't establish anything.

Except, you know, everybody and their mother could see the emotion coming from those promos

You mean that promo that lead to crowds being dead silent when he came out? Face it kid Cena hasn't delivered an emotional promo since he started the super man garbage.

 

[enviousdominous]

I'm noticing a trend among the Cena fanatics in here.

The contradictory argument that Cena does indeed have flaws, but they do nothing to limit his potential because we should all strive to be as flawless as him.

The idiotic idea that if Cena must choose between a belt or his soul, he'll choose the latter and that it will be an example of humility.

This notion that John Cena is just a hard worker doing what he loves and like a good soldier always does what he's told. Nevermind the fact that inside knowledge has granted a more honest perspective on what kind of person he is, we should only judge him for what we're being fed on tv.


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[Galvatron]

It don't matter what anybody says, Cena's fans will love and defend him forever. You can't use logic to criticize Cena because his fans will just come up with anything they can to defend their hero. In a way Cena's fans are just like him, they can never admit being wrong or lose any arguement that points out why people don't like Cena. Its always your fault you don't like Cena and if you can't love him blindly like his fans then you should just shut up and watch something else. All Cena fans are the same.

 

[enviousdominous]

Here's what I'll give John Cena.

He CAN wrestle. He is capable of some pretty big spots, the likes of which, I can honestly say, very few others could possibly accomplish. Lifting the dead weight of The Big Show is impressive, from what I can tell he does so without assistance from The Big Show. He's capable of calling spots on the fly, I just question his tendency to no sell.

He paid his dues to earn his place in 2005. He had to act like a robot in OVW and wear a Yankees jersey in his hometown. He had to endure humility for a time as a silly gimmick and as a heel.

This one might earn me some flack, but here goes. He is a good role model for children. Just like Hogan, he is allowed to be the guy that rights wrongs and rescue friends on distress. The character he plays is noble.

I hate the person that John Cena is and I hate what he's done to the business, understand that I don't think he's incapable of ever being likeable.


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[SinCityBlitz]

I hate the person that John Cena is and I hate what he's done to the business, understand that I don't think he's incapable of ever being likeable.


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What has he done to the business? He didn't do shit to the business but the higher ups in the company have. Cena doesn't control which direction he wants the WWE to go. He does have some control over his character but what Vince wants Vince gets.

People need to realize that Vince likes PG wrestling. The only reason he went to the AE is because he had to. It was sink or swim and he swam. Until he is gone get used to it. Plus USA doesn't want the raunchy stuff anymore either.

To be fair, I know of a few adults who like John Cena. Even then though, and you saw this coming, none of them ever left Mom and Dad's house.



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Trying to insult others to make yourself look good only makes you look like an ass. Just like your stupid disability comment. But if you are going to do it don't use dated material that has been used against pro wrestling fans since forever.

It don't matter what anybody says, Cena's fans will love and defend him forever. You can't use logic to criticize Cena because his fans will just come up with anything they can to defend their hero. In a way Cena's fans are just like him, they can never admit being wrong or lose any arguement that points out why people don't like Cena. Its always your fault you don't like Cena and if you can't love him blindly like his fans then you should just shut up and watch something else. All Cena fans are the same.

It doesn't matter what anybody says Cena haters will always hate him and come up with anything to hate on him more. See how that works? Coming from a Cena "hater" the haters are easily a million times worse than the lovers because they keep making the threads trashing him. So he must be doing something right if people keep talking about him.

If you don't like him by any and all means necessary change the channel.