The Dragon Ball Z Thread

[Trill Co$by]

So a friend of mine and I recently got into a debate about Dragon Ball Super's seemingly infinite loop of plot holes and inconsistencies, which basically is giving GT more sequel validity than Super thus far, and then that got me thinking about plot holes and inconsistencies in DBZ alone.

For example, in the Frieza Saga it was made clear that Goku isn't able to breathe in space. Yet, in Dragon Ball, Goku is clearly able to take villains and place them on the moon for punishment. And then in flashbacks, we clearly see that Bardock and all of the other saiyans and Frieza soldiers are clearly outside the atmosphere and breathing perfectly fine in space. And even in today's era, Goku clearly was able to fight with Beerus in space while in Super Saiyan God. So how was that possible if Saiyans can't breathe in space.

Also, how was Cell able to come back in his perfect state when Android 18 was knocked out of his stomach? Regenerative cells I could understand, it was part of his programming... but it's clearly stated within his so called programming that he NEEDS 18 in order to have his perfect form. Hell, Gohan knocking 18 out of Cell made him revert to Semi-Perfect form... also, Semi-Perfect doesn't exist. You're either perfect or not.

And then in the Buu Saga...why didn't Supreme Kai grab Gohan, Trunks, and Goten from the line at DBZ's version of the Pearly Gates? Surely having SSJ3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, and SSJ 3 Goku along with Majin Buu would've been enough to take down the might of Kid Buu especially when it's been documented that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu and Gohan literally mopped the floor with him.

And how is Akira Toriyama just going to forget Uub? He was clearly at the end of DBZ, and no that's not just some Toei Animation addition. Uub was legitimately in the DBZ Manga. Bra not being in Super thus far is fine with me, because she simply wasn't born yet... but Uub? Uub should've been there by now.

 

[GOOZEKING]

Sorry for not posting any responses to your last few... Work has been BORING...
1. Regarding Super, I think it is very enjoyable to watch because as of now all they are doing are we using the story of BOG and Revival of F. I never cared for animations or how it looked being that I grew up watching it and it is 10x better now then it was 20 years ago. I will say I worry about other characters despite goku and vegeta getting attention. I know it might not happen but I still want to see characters like tien and yamcha possibly do something.
2. I have numerous movies that I loved as a kid and again as an adult from Dragonball. I enjoyed Battle of Gods, Legendary Super Saiyan Broly, Super Android 13- this mostly because of TFS, and also revenge of cooler. I will say though that my favorite all time movie is BOG mostly because of how awesome and how great Beerus and Whis are.

 

[lenguy]

If you would have asked the question of my favorite movie 5 years ago, I would have said fusion reborn. Love that movie. Great animation, great fight scenes, great humor, great character moments, Gogeta and his finishing attack on Janemba. Plus I like out of overall sheer character designs, Janemba might be my favorite design for a Villain character.

These days that movie holds the solid 3rd spot on my favorites list. number one and two go to Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. Battle of Gods is my number 2. I lot of people like to hate on it because it lacked any action but it was a great way to revive the franchise. Beautiful animation, tons of great humor and character interactions. Plus the movie gave us Beerus and Whis. Beerus is easily one of my favorite characters. He just has a certain presence to him. Hes so arrogant and quick tempered, he kind of reminds me of Vegeta. The story was great and unlike the Super retelling, the movie was perfectly paced. The battle between Goku and Beerus left something to be desired but it was fun while it lasted. Its hard for me not to place BoG at number one because its the perfect DB movie. I has everything the franchise is known for and it does it in such a smooth way.

I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WORLLLLDDDDD!!!!

But the newest movie has to do be the best for me simply because for what BoG lacked, RoF made up for it; that being the fights. I love the story of DB but I'd be lying if the main reason I don't watch it for is the fights. Plus it brought back Freeza, who is easily my favorite DB villain. I can't really say much because the main reason why I love this movie is based on pure nostalgia but I can't help it. I can't tell you how many times I've rewatched this movie since buying the collectors edition Bluray. I just have a great time watching it, I don't find a single scene boring and is entertaining through and through.

Ha Ha....your threats are as empty as your title. All hail Vegeta, prince of no one.

 

[SSJPhenom]

So a friend of mine and I recently got into a debate about Dragon Ball Super's seemingly infinite loop of plot holes and inconsistencies, which basically is giving GT more sequel validity than Super thus far, and then that got me thinking about plot holes and inconsistencies in DBZ alone.

People love to hate on Super but forget that DBZ itself was full of plot holes and inconsistencies.

For example, in the Frieza Saga it was made clear that Goku isn't able to breathe in space. Yet, in Dragon Ball, Goku is clearly able to take villains and place them on the moon for punishment. And then in flashbacks, we clearly see that Bardock and all of the other saiyans and Frieza soldiers are clearly outside the atmosphere and breathing perfectly fine in space. And even in today's era, Goku clearly was able to fight with Beerus in space while in Super Saiyan God. So how was that possible if Saiyans can't breathe in space.

As far as this one goes, I'm not so sure that it's a plot hole. Freeza assumed that Saiyans couldn't breathe in space. As you've pointed out, however, all evidence is to the contrary.

Also, how was Cell able to come back in his perfect state when Android 18 was knocked out of his stomach? Regenerative cells I could understand, it was part of his programming... but it's clearly stated within his so called programming that he NEEDS 18 in order to have his perfect form. Hell, Gohan knocking 18 out of Cell made him revert to Semi-Perfect form... also, Semi-Perfect doesn't exist. You're either perfect or not.

This was explained as each one of Cell's cells holds a memory of his perfect form. So when he blew himself up, he was able to regenerate to his perfect form because of that. Like Freeza he could survive anywhere and like the Saiyans he got stronger after near death. You have to also think about it like this, when he blew himself up, he destroyed Android 17 as well, so when he regenerated, he also didn't have 17 as well as 18. I think his regeneration logic made sense. When Gohan initially knocked 18 out of Cell, he reverted back to his 2nd form because that body needed the androids to maintain his perfect form, however, when he destroyed that body, he was able to regenerate to his perfect form.

And then in the Buu Saga...why didn't Supreme Kai grab Gohan, Trunks, and Goten from the line at DBZ's version of the Pearly Gates? Surely having SSJ3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, and SSJ 3 Goku along with Majin Buu would've been enough to take down the might of Kid Buu especially when it's been documented that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu and Gohan literally mopped the floor with him.

I never thought about that, but the bigger question is; why didn't Goku and Vegeta use the Dragon Balls to wish Gohan, Trunks, and Goten to the fight? Or why didn't Goku just use Instant Transmission to go get them? SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan were easily stronger than Kid Buu. It just didn't make sense for them to struggle against Kid Buu the way they did when they had fighters that would have been able to take him out with ease.

And how is Akira Toriyama just going to forget Uub? He was clearly at the end of DBZ, and no that's not just some Toei Animation addition. Uub was legitimately in the DBZ Manga. Bra not being in Super thus far is fine with me, because she simply wasn't born yet... but Uub? Uub should've been there by now.

I don't think that he has forgotten Uub. It's just that Uub would be about 5 years old right now so what is he going to do? Also, I think that the Bra situation is more of an inconsistency than Uub. Judging from the end of DBZ and all of GT, Bra was older than Pan. So Bra should have already been born and yet, Bulma isn't even pregnant or anything.

 

[Trill Co$by]

I don't think that he has forgotten Uub. It's just that Uub would be about 5 years old right now so what is he going to do? Also, I think that the Bra situation is more of an inconsistency than Uub. Judging from the end of DBZ and all of GT, Bra was older than Pan. So Bra should have already been born and yet, Bulma isn't even pregnant or anything.

GT causes the most confusion between the Pan/Bra situation. In reality, Pan is older than Bra who was born 780 while Pan was born in 799. I have no problem with that inconsistency once so ever, because it's reasonable to believe that since Battle of Gods is only a year older than Resurrection of F, Bulma and Vegeta mate sometime either after the Frieza events or maybe right before he goes off to train, which would mean that she's still too early to really be showing signs of pregnancy.

I just feel that Uub is easily one of the most interesting characters in DBZ that didn't right out join the group. He's basically a modern day Piccolo, only with the power of a Goku or a Vegeta rather than a write off Namekian.

 

[lenguy]

My Dragon ball Super Resurrection of F Arc Review​

So I'm here to do my review of the Resurrection F arc. This will be similar to the BoG arc review. I'll go over key plot differences and discuss which I thought did it better, the movie or series. Caution, SPOILERS BELOW

If anybody has been following this thread and my posts close enough then you would know that the Resurrection F movie is my all time favorite DBZ movie feature. It might be a little damp on story but that never mattered to me. It was simple and straight to the point. Frieza had been resurrected and was coming back to take his revenge, that's really all the movie needed to be about and for at least me, it worked. From the animation, to the fights, to the new transformations to Frieza himself. The movie was practically pure fan service and I loved it. The Resurrection F arc on the other hand.....

The RoF arc started off promising. Giving us background information on Frieza's training as well as Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis. These were missing plot points that were exempt from the movie for whatever reason. I absolutely loved watching Goku and Vegeta train with Whis. Watching them compete and nanny Beerus was great humorous fun. Watching it I felt a strong nostalgic call back to the days of Goku and Krillens traning with Master Roshi and I loved that they brought those elements back again. The arc also did better to explain how Goku and Vegeta obtained their SSB(Super Saiyan Blue/SSGSS) forms. Training in a place similar to the room of spirit and time but being surrounded by God essence. Goku later explains that while he needed to help of everybody else to reach God form, Vegeta did it all on his own. These were all missing elements that I was hoping Super would touch upon and it did pretty well.

There were things that they changed once Frieza made his way to Earth that I'll briefly touch upon. I loved how they made Krillen suffer from a bit of PTSD upon seeing Frieza again. Krillen was too afraid to fight out of fear of dying by his hands again. That was a nice little touch. Making something of Tagoma was great as well, even if it didn't have much of a payoff. The same goes for bringing back Ginyu and bringing in Goten and Trunks. All nice additions but none of it payed off in any big way. Having Piccolo sacrifice himself was nice way to had some sort of drama and despair to the story. I however, didn't really fell the impact because, Dragon Balls man. That was the good.

Now for the bad. The fight with Goku and Frieza was just flat out boring. The fight in the movie was far better animated. Far better choreographed, had better moments and was more entertaining. The fight in Super had zero tension and for much of it, was just badly choreographed. It was stiff and clunky and was a major disappointment. Asides from that, the second half of the arc just felt rushed. It felt like they just stopped caring and just wanted to move on and get to the new stuff. I was hoping they would expand on the Goku/Frieza fight and they did in a way, but the execution of it was just awful

Overall the arc was solid but I feel like I got to give the over satisfactory factor to the movie. The movie while missing a lot of the story was overall better in terms of the fights. Though Vegeta vs Golden Frieza in super I think was the only real improvement.

Overall my final grade of Resurrection of F arc will be a 6/10.

+Great expanded story
+Goku and Vegeta's training
+Tagoma
+Frieza being Frieza
+The introduction of Champa and Vados

-Goku vs Frieza
-Tagoma, Ginyu, Gotenks
-Some wonky animation

 

[SSJPhenom]

If I was scoring the Resurrection F arc of Dragon Ball Super, I'd give it either a 4 or 5 out of 10.

While I did appreciate more story points like the Goku and Vegeta training scenes or Freeza actually being himself. There was plenty in the arc that was just pure shit. I mean, they created more plot holes and inconsistencies in this one arc then in all of DBGT. It really wasn't that good. The only worth while episode in the whole arc was this last one. That was a great episode.

Having said all of that, I'm very excited for the Universe 6/Champa stuff. Finally some new content. I can't wait.

 

[GOOZEKING]

Resurrection of F arc was an ok arc... If I had to give it a rating I would give it 2.5 out of 5.
- animation was bad
- ginyu was good
- the ending of the arc was really the best with vegeta beating freeza and gohan asking piccolo to train him

 

[lenguy]

Okay all you DB fanatics. I, Lenguy have come here to pose a question. A question I have been thinking about recently. Its a good old fashion, who is stronger debate. With the introduction of the new movies and now Super, its given fans a lot more debates and far more questions and even more fan fiction. A lot of these debates concentrate on Super Vs GT. Like here is one you probably have heard tossed around. SSGSS Goku vs SSJ4 Goku? Well, I'm here to propose a similar question. I want to know who would be stronger between a hypothetical fusion between SSGSS Vegito Vs SSJ4 Gogeta. I made sure to put emphasis on the word stronger because I don't want to know who would win in a fight per say just who would be stronger.

I struggle with this question because we don't know very much about the SSGSS transformation to begin with. I have difficulty gauging the power of this form. In the BoG arc in Super, the red form was incredibly strong. Goku in this form was able to go toe to toe with Beerus and even managed to come close to nearly destroying the universe. But the blue version of the form had difficulty keeping up with Golden Freeza. In both the Resurrection F movie and arc, Goku was shown struggling with Golden Freeza. In both the movie and arc, the form came across as very weak. Which upon first impressions would make me believe that the red form is more powerful than the blue form. Even those its been stated that its clearly not.

Its also been stated that individually, Goku nor Vegeta would be able to beat Beerus. However, Whis has stated that if they were to team up that they could potentially beat Beerus. With that little bit of information I can assume that as Vegito and as a SSGSS, that Vegito would be able to at the very least give Beerus an even fight. But I do believe that at that point, Vegito would be stronger. Fusion gives the users a significant boost in power. Plus with the added boost of the potara style fusion, I think it would be enough to topple the God of destruction.

Now on to SSJ4 Gogeta. Gogeta is tricky as well because he wasn't around long enough for us to really get a true feel to his power. Going up against Omega Shenron he was not only able to overpower him but flat out outclass him. If Gogeta was taking the fight seriously then my bet is he could easily destroy Omega Shenron with little ease. Aside from that we can't say too much else about him. Gogeta is obviously very powerful and very fast. So powerful that even fused, his immense power cause him to defuse 20 minutes early.

Its hard to compare Super to GT because there are some many differences with power scaling. People will argue that Characters like Beerus, Whis, SSGSS Goku and Vegeta are leagues above SSJ4 Goku, Vegeta, Gogeta, Omega Shenron ect...ect... and vice versa. Plus we just know so little about SSGSS and Gogeta's SSJ4 form that its just difficult to calculate. All I have to go by are the feats these characters can do. And there is one major feat that stands above in my head. The near destruction of the universe at the hands of Beerus and Goku. To me, that feat speaks volumes. So If I had to pick which character is stronger then I would have to go with SSGSS Vegito. If anybody disagrees with me then by all means, please explain why you do disagree because perhaps I've overlooked something in all this. S sound off below people!

SSGSS Vegito? Or SSJ4 Gogeta?

and Just for the hell of it, bonus question!

SSGSS Goku or SSJ4 Goku?

 

[SSJPhenom]

Who's stronger between SSJ4 Gogeta and SSGSS Vegito?

That's a tough one. Just like you said lenguy, we have no clue how much SSGSS increases their powers. We know the SSJ4 increases their power by 4000x base, but we don't know how much the fusion dance increases their powers. That goes for the potara fusion as well. So all we have to go by is what we know. We that the potara fusion is far more powerful than the fusion dance. We, may not have an exact number as to the increase of SSG or SSGSS, however, it should be fairly easy for anyone to deduce that it's a much higher multiplier than that of SSJ4. Why? Let's look at the evidence. As a SSJ3, Goku couldn't even touch Beerus and he was defeated in 2, fairly soft, blows. Then, when Vegeta raged over Bulma being hit, it was said that he surpassed Goku in that moment and he was able to attack Beerus. Beerus, however, was able to subdue Vegeta, also with one attack using what he said was only 1/10th of his power. So that means that Beerus at 10% power was way more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and Rage Boost SSJ2 Vegeta. Then, as a SSG Goku was able to put up a decent fight against Beerus, however, at 70% Beerus was stronger than SSG Goku. So going by that evidence, we know that SSG is way more than just 10x SSJ3 and SSGSS is supposed to be stronger than SSG. So I'd have to give it to Vegito. As a fused SSGSS he should easily be stronger than even Whis or anything else in the 14 Universes.

 

[lenguy]

We know the SSJ4 increases their power by 4000x base,

Woah there sparky, slow down. Don't use think 4000x is a bit much? SSJ3 is a 400x base. If SSJ4 increased their power by that much then oh yeah, SSJ4 Gogeta all the way lol. I always thought SSJ4 was around a 600x base. But I looked it up and apparently its 10X the first Super Saiyan transformation.

but we don't know how much the fusion dance increases their powers. That goes for the potara fusion as well. So all we have to go by is what we know. We that the potara fusion is far more powerful than the fusion dance. We, may not have an exact number as to the increase of SSG or SSGSS, however, it should be fairly easy for anyone to deduce that it's a much higher multiplier than that of SSJ4.

Honestly, I don't think the SSG or SSGSS transformation is the type of transformation that is a power multiplier, at least not in the traditional sense. At least not the original SSG transformation. I think its a set amount that the transformation increases by. Remember, God Ki is completely different from regular Ki. So I would assume its properties are very different from regular Ki as well. In BoG the movie, Goku wasn't really shown to get any stronger after initially transforming. However, in the BoG arc in super it seemed liked the longer he fought in that form and the more use he got to it, the stronger it seemed to get.

SSGSS on the other hand is...weird and a bit more complicated. They say its when a Saiyan has God Ki and then transforms into a Super Saiyan. Once Goku absorbed the God Ki in him, that power he had as a Super Saiyan God became his base power(his new base form is known as A Saiyan beyond God). Then once he use his God Ki to transform into a Super Saiyan he then becomes a SSGSS. So, does that mean that whatever his new power is in his base form is is still then multipled by 50X when he transforms into a SSGSS since its essentially his Super Saiyan transformation just with God Ki? Or is the multiplier completely different now? Is it even still a multiplier? That's what I don't really understand.

Why? Let's look at the evidence. As a SSJ3, Goku couldn't even touch Beerus and he was defeated in 2, fairly soft, blows. Then, when Vegeta raged over Bulma being hit, it was said that he surpassed Goku in that moment and he was able to attack Beerus. Beerus, however, was able to subdue Vegeta, also with one attack using what he said was only 1/10th of his power. So that means that Beerus at 10% power was way more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and Rage Boost SSJ2 Vegeta. Then, as a SSG Goku was able to put up a decent fight against Beerus, however, at 70% Beerus was stronger than SSG Goku. So going by that evidence, we know that SSG is way more than just 10x SSJ3 and SSGSS is supposed to be stronger than SSG. So I'd have to give it to Vegito. As a fused SSGSS he should easily be stronger than even Whis or anything else in the 14 Universes.

Mann. The thing I hate now most of anything is now that we have two source materials for this. The Movies and the Anime. Three is you want to count the manga. In the movie Beerus was stated to clearly be using about 70% of his power. In Super he was said to be using 100% but it was later revealed by Whis that was a complete fabrication on the part of Beerus. So does that mean that Beerus was still using only 70%? Maybe. Whis was quoted too by saying that had Beerus used 100% of his power then the entire universe would have been destroyed. To me that one statement is all I need to hear to come to a decisive conclusion. To me, If Goku went toe to toe with a being who, if he wanted to could destroy the entire universe and put up a competitive fight. Then I have to give the edge to a SSGSS Vegito. No doubt SSJ4 Gogeta is strong but does he have enough power to come close to destroying the entire universe? I highly doubt that. Then again I don't have any evidence to support that or disprove it either.

Just for reference lets bring up the power scaling that Toriyama used when BoG was first released.

Goku-6
Beerus-10
Whis-15

If I were to add a few additions just for comparison sake.

SSJ3 Goku- .5
Rage boost Vegeta-1
SSJ4 Goku-4
SSJ4 Gegeta- 6 or 7
SSGSS Goku and Vegeta- 7 maybe an 8
SSGSS Vegito- 9 or 10 maybe stronger

This is just my own personal opinion and doesn't reflect more than a mere estimation.

But yeah. Its difficult to say for absolute certainty but I think we both brought up enough evidence to support our belief that SSGSS Vegito is stronger. Hell even Saiyan beyond God base Vegito would probably be stronger but that's just me talking out my ass.

 

[Bernkastel]

Upgraded Power Level List​

It has come to my attention that my original power level list has some mistakes. So I'm gonna give this another shot. Here we go....

Raditz Saga:

Farmer: 5
Piccolo: 322
-(W/O Weights): 400
-(1st Special Beam Cannon): 1,330
-(2nd Special Beam Cannon): 1,440
Goku: 330
-(W/O Weights): 416
-(Kamehameha): 950
Gohan: 710
-(Angry): 1,370
Raditz: 1,200
Krillin: 206
Master Roshi: 139
Turtle: 0.0001

Vegeta Saga:

Piccolo: 1,400
-(Maxed Out): 3,000
Krillin: 1,100
-(Energy Blast): 2,200
Gohan: 900
-(Masenko): 2,800
-(Great Ape): 9,000
Siabamen: 1,200
Tien: 1,300
-(Tri Beam): 3,500
Yamcha: 1,250
Chiatzu: 700
Nappa: 4,000
-(Full Power): 7,000
Goku: 5,000
-(Full Power): 8,000
-(Kaioken): 12,000
-(Kaioken x2): 16,000
-(Kaioken x3): 24,000
-(Kaioken x4): 32,000
Vegeta: 18,000
-(Galick Gun): 24,000
-(Great Ape): 180,000
Yajirobi: 800

Namek Saga:

Gohan: 1,500
-(Power Unlocked): 20,000
Krillin: 1,500
-(Power Unlocked): 16,000
Vegeta: 24,000
-(Zenkai from Zarbon): 36,000
Namekain Warriors: 1,000
-(Full Power): 3,000
Nail: 42,000
Frieza's Henchmen: 1,200
Cui: 18,000
Dadoria: 22,000
Zarbon: 23,000
-(Transformed): 33,000
Frieza: 530,000

Ginyu Force Saga:

Gohan: 20,000
-(Zenkai from Recoome): 50,000
Krillin: 16,000
Vegeta: 36,000
-(Zenkai from Recoome): 300,000
Goku: 90,000
-(Kiaoken x2): 180,000
-(Inside Ginyu's Body): 20,000
Guldo: 10,000
Recoome: 45,000
Burter: 45,000
Jeice: 45,000
Captain Ginyu: 120,000
-(Inside Goku's Body): 23,000 (Gradually Increases)

Frieza Saga:

Krillin: 16,000
Gohan: 50,000
-(After Krillin's Stabbed): 500,000
-(Zenkai from Frieza): 150,000
-(Masenko): 1,500,000
Nail: 42,000
Piccolo: 30,000
-(Fused with Nail): 1,200,000
Vegeta: 300,000
-(Zenkai from Krillin): 2,000,000
Goku: 3,000,000
-(Kaioken x10): 30,000,000
-(Kaioken x20): 60,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 150,000,000
Frieza: 530,000
-(2nd Form): 1,000,000
-(3rd Form): 1,800,000
-(Final Form 1%): 1,200,000
-(Final Form 10%): 12,000,000
-(Final Form 25%): 30,000,000
-(Final Form 50%): 60,000,000
-(Final Form 100%): 120,000,000

Trunks Saga:

Krillin: 50,000
Yamcha: 35,000
Tien: 45,000
Chiatzu: 15,000
Piccolo: 2,000,000
Gohan: 250,000
Vegeta: 3,500,000
Trunks: 3,400,000
-(Super Saiyan): 170,000,000
Goku: 4,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 200,000,000
King Cold: 140,000,000
Mecca Frieza: 160,000,000

Android Saga:

Krillin: 2,000,000
Yamcha: 1,500,000
Tien: 2,500,000
Gohan: 4,000,000
Piccolo: 250,000,000
Trunks: 6,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 300,000,000
Goku: 7,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 350,000,000
Vegeta: 7,400,000
-(Super Saiyan): 380,000,000
Android 19: 220,000,000
Dr. Gero: 200,000,000
Android 18: 400,000,000
Android 17: 450,000,000
Android 16: 500,000,000

Imperfect Cell Saga:

Gohan: 4,000,000
Trunks: 6,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 300,000,000
Goku: 7,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 350,000,000
Vegeta: 7,400,000
-(Super Saiyan): 380,000,000
Piccolo: 250,000,000
-(Fused with Kami): 450,000,000
Android 18: 400,000,000
Android 17: 450,000,000
Android 16: 500,000,000
Imperfect Cell: 380,000,000
-(Humans Absorbed): 500,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell Saga:

Gohan: 4,000,000
Tien: 2,500,000
-(Tri Beam): 250,000,000
Piccolo: 450,000,000
Goku: 7,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 350,000,000
Vegeta: 7,400,000
-(After Time Chamber): 10,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 500,000,000
-(Ultra Super Saiyan): 1,000,000,000
Trunks: 6,000,000
-(After Time Chamber) 11,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 550,000,000
-(Ultra Super Saiyan): 1,100,000,000
Imperfect Cell: 500,000,000
-(17 Absorbed): 950,000,000
-(18 Absorbed): 1,350,000,000

Cell Games Saga:

Piccolo: 450,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 1,000,000,000
Trunks: 11,000,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 22,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,100,000,000
Vegeta: 10,000,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 24,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,200,000,000
Goku: 7,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 25,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,250,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 1,300,000,000
Gohan: 4,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 24,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,225,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 1,275,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 2,450,000,000
Cell Jrs: 1,250,000,000
Perfect Cell: 1,350,000,000
-(Bulked Up): 1,700,000,000
-(Super Perfect Cell): 2,400,000,000

World Tournament Saga:

Krillin: 3,000,000
Goten: 7,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 350,000,000
Trunks: 7,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 375,000,000
Android 18: 400,000,000
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Kabito: 600,000,000
Supreme Kai: 800,000,000
Gohan: 18,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 900,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 1,800,000,000
Vegeta: 28,000,000
Goku: 30,000,000
Spoppavich: 10,000
Yamu: 10,000

Buu Saga:

Krillin: 3,000,000
Kabito: 600,000,000
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Supreme Kai: 800,000,000
Kabito Kai: 1,400,000,000
Goten: 7,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 350,000,000
Trunks: 7,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 375,000,000
Gotenks: 14,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 725,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 33,750,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,687,500,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 13,500,000,000
Gohan: 18,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 900,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 1,800,000,000
-(Ultimate Gohan): 15,000,000,000
Vegeta: 28,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,400,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 2,800,000,000
-(Majin Vegeta): 3,000,000,000
Goku: 30,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,500,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 3,000,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 12,000,000,000
Vegito: 1,000,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 50,000,000,000
Pui Pui: 20,000,000
Yakon: 300,000,000
Dabura: 1,300,000,000
Majin Buu: 6,250,000,000
Evil Buu: 7,250,000,000
Super Buu: 13,500,000,000
-(Buucolo): 14,800,000,000
-(Buutenks): 28,300,000,000
-(Buuhan): 29,800,000,000
Kid Buu: 11,500,000,000

That's how high the respective power levels would be if Goku and Frieza were indeed in the hundreds of millions.

What do you guys think? Are these levels better than the last? Let me know your opinions.

Power levels for DBZ are always highly subjective. I don't put any stock in them past the Frieza saga and think they are a waste of time. Could you imagine trying to put a number next to Beerus or SSJG Blue Goku? The feats in Super jump so radically that the gods are in a totally and completely different league altogether then DBZ characters. And from what I have seen through the DBS manga, power scaling for the series may go out the window in the future.

But based on what I know about the DBZ manga, particularly the Buu saga, which is the easiest saga to butcher PL's, there are certain "truths."

- Gohan is the strongest unfused character in the end of the series, so his hypothetical PL should be higher than SSJ3 Goku's.

- SSJ3 Gotenks should be stronger than Goku.

- Base Super Buu should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku [who stated that he wouldn't have any chance against him] and SSJ3 Gotenks. Super Buu was toying with him the whole fight, waiting for the superior Gohan to arrive.

- Fat Buu and Mr. Buu are two separate beings, despite looking identical. Fat Buu should be roughly on par with SSJ3 Goku. Maybe a little lower. Mr. Buu [the weakest Majin Buu in the series] should be a little higher than a SSJ2. I'd argue that Evil Buu and Kid Buu are on par with each other.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Woah there sparky, slow down. Don't use think 4000x is a bit much? SSJ3 is a 400x base. If SSJ4 increased their power by that much then oh yeah, SSJ4 Gogeta all the way lol. I always thought SSJ4 was around a 600x base. But I looked it up and apparently its 10X the first Super Saiyan transformation.



Honestly, I don't think the SSG or SSGSS transformation is the type of transformation that is a power multiplier, at least not in the traditional sense. At least not the original SSG transformation. I think its a set amount that the transformation increases by. Remember, God Ki is completely different from regular Ki. So I would assume its properties are very different from regular Ki as well. In BoG the movie, Goku wasn't really shown to get any stronger after initially transforming. However, in the BoG arc in super it seemed liked the longer he fought in that form and the more use he got to it, the stronger it seemed to get.

SSGSS on the other hand is...weird and a bit more complicated. They say its when a Saiyan has God Ki and then transforms into a Super Saiyan. Once Goku absorbed the God Ki in him, that power he had as a Super Saiyan God became his base power(his new base form is known as A Saiyan beyond God). Then once he use his God Ki to transform into a Super Saiyan he then becomes a SSGSS. So, does that mean that whatever his new power is in his base form is is still then multipled by 50X when he transforms into a SSGSS since its essentially his Super Saiyan transformation just with God Ki? Or is the multiplier completely different now? Is it even still a multiplier? That's what I don't really understand.



Mann. The thing I hate now most of anything is now that we have two source materials for this. The Movies and the Anime. Three is you want to count the manga. In the movie Beerus was stated to clearly be using about 70% of his power. In Super he was said to be using 100% but it was later revealed by Whis that was a complete fabrication on the part of Beerus. So does that mean that Beerus was still using only 70%? Maybe. Whis was quoted too by saying that had Beerus used 100% of his power then the entire universe would have been destroyed. To me that one statement is all I need to hear to come to a decisive conclusion. To me, If Goku went toe to toe with a being who, if he wanted to could destroy the entire universe and put up a competitive fight. Then I have to give the edge to a SSGSS Vegito. No doubt SSJ4 Gogeta is strong but does he have enough power to come close to destroying the entire universe? I highly doubt that. Then again I don't have any evidence to support that or disprove it either.

Just for reference lets bring up the power scaling that Toriyama used when BoG was first released.

Goku-6
Beerus-10
Whis-15

If I were to add a few additions just for comparison sake.

SSJ3 Goku- .5
Rage boost Vegeta-1
SSJ4 Goku-4
SSJ4 Gegeta- 6 or 7
SSGSS Goku and Vegeta- 7 maybe an 8
SSGSS Vegito- 9 or 10 maybe stronger

This is just my own personal opinion and doesn't reflect more than a mere estimation.

But yeah. Its difficult to say for absolute certainty but I think we both brought up enough evidence to support our belief that SSGSS Vegito is stronger. Hell even Saiyan beyond God base Vegito would probably be stronger but that's just me talking out my ass.

I'm not going to respond to your entire post because you're wrong. Idk where you looked up the power of the SSJ transformations but where ever it was is wrong as well. SSJ is 50x, SSJ 2 is 100x(SSJ x2), SSJ3 is 400x(SSJ2 x4), and SSJ is 4000x(SSJ3 x10). I'm not guessing at these numbers. I've gotten that information from every reputable source I know. Kanzenshu, DBZ Guides, hell even the death battle of Goku Vs Superman. So if your whole argument is based on my SSJ4 power up being wrong then I'm sorry but you're wrong.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Power levels for DBZ are always highly subjective. I don't put any stock in them past the Frieza saga and think they are a waste of time. Could you imagine trying to put a number next to Beerus or SSJG Blue Goku? The feats in Super jump so radically that the gods are in a totally and completely different league altogether then DBZ characters. And from what I have seen through the DBS manga, power scaling for the series may go out the window in the future.

It already has gone out the window IMO.

But based on what I know about the DBZ manga, particularly the Buu saga, which is the easiest saga to butcher PL's, there are certain "truths."

OK.

- Gohan is the strongest unfused character in the end of the series, so his hypothetical PL should be higher than SSJ3 Goku's.

That's what my list says.

- SSJ3 Gotenks should be stronger than Goku.

That's what my list says.

- Base Super Buu should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku [who stated that he wouldn't have any chance against him] and SSJ3 Gotenks. Super Buu was toying with him the whole fight, waiting for the superior Gohan to arrive.

Base Super Buu is stronger than SSJ 3 Goku on my list. I disagree about SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu. He might've known about Gohan, however, he and Gotenks were still about the same. If Gotenks' power hadn't of ran out at the end, he would've killed Super Buu. If anything, SSJ3 Gotenks should be stronger than Super Buu.

- Fat Buu and Mr. Buu are two separate beings, despite looking identical. Fat Buu should be roughly on par with SSJ3 Goku. Maybe a little lower. Mr. Buu [the weakest Majin Buu in the series] should be a little higher than a SSJ2. I'd argue that Evil Buu and Kid Buu are on par with each other.

I didn't make Fat and Mr. Buu separate in my list. Goku as a SSJ3 is way more pop powerful than Fat Buu. He stated a few times that he could've beaten him if he wanted to.

 

[lenguy]

I'm not going to respond to your entire post because you're wrong. Idk where you looked up the power of the SSJ transformations but where ever it was is wrong as well. SSJ is 50x, SSJ 2 is 100x(SSJ x2), SSJ3 is 400x(SSJ2 x4), and SSJ is 4000x(SSJ3 x10). I'm not guessing at these numbers. I've gotten that information from every reputable source I know. Kanzenshu, DBZ Guides, hell even the death battle of Goku Vs Superman. So if your whole argument is based on my SSJ4 power up being wrong then I'm sorry but you're wrong.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan

Super Saiyan is 50x base.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_2

Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as a super Saiyan so 100x base

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_3

Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times the strength of a Super Saiyan 2 so its 400x base.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4

n Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x a regular Super Saiyan in power (matching the 10x Kamehameha multiplier).

Super Saiyan 4 is 10x the power of a regular Super Saiyan.

This is all according to the DB Wiki whom back up most of their claims from the Daizenshuu guidebooks. SSJ4 being the only one not included because it isn't canon. Yet even then I wouldn't even say its official but I'd trust that 10x Super Saiyan number over that absurd number of 4000x SSJ3.

To think that SSJ4 is that much of a higher multiplier than even SSJ3 is just ridiculous. I'm sorry but that number you threw out at 4000x is just stupid. All it takes is common sense. I see a pattern with the transformation multiplers. Super is 50x base. SSJ2 is twice as strong as that, SSJ3 is 400x that so going by the next number in the pattern then you would have to assume that SSJ4 would be at least 800x that. But 4000X?? Also the fact that you say you trust Death Battle as a credible source for information is hilarious. They botched up both Goku Vs Superman death battles with their so called "Reach search". Hell, they completely rushed fight 2 before any legitimate information on SSG or SSGSS was even released. They, as far as we too, knew nothing about the transformations. Did that stop them from making it? Nope. That video looks a bit stupid now after we found out that SSG Goku with his clash with Beerus had the power to level the entire universe with just 3 punches.

Look, If you want to discredit the SSJ4 part of my post then fine, do so. However, you discredited the rest of my post even though the rest of it had nothing to do with the SSJ4 transformation. I thought I constructed a very good argument and brought up some very key points that were worth mention to further the debate. You didn't even hear it out. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you are wrong. I'm just saying that with everything I'm presented with doesn't add up with your numbers. Your numbers for transformations 1-3 are spot on but number 4 takes such a ridiculous leap that there is no way I can take it serious and in all honestly is nothing more than fan theory. While the number I gave might not be entirely "official", its at least backed up by something. It really all I got that I could find that seems believable in my books.

 

[SSJPhenom]

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan

Super Saiyan is 50x base.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_2

Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as a super Saiyan so 100x base

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_3

Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times the strength of a Super Saiyan 2 so its 400x base.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4



Super Saiyan 4 is 10x the power of a regular Super Saiyan.

This is all according to the DB Wiki whom back up most of their claims from the Daizenshuu guidebooks. SSJ4 being the only one not included because it isn't canon. Yet even then I wouldn't even say its official but I'd trust that 10x Super Saiyan number over that absurd number of 4000x SSJ3.

To think that SSJ4 is that much of a higher multiplier than even SSJ3 is just ridiculous. I'm sorry but that number you threw out at 4000x is just stupid. All it takes is common sense. I see a pattern with the transformation multiplers. Super is 50x base. SSJ2 is twice as strong as that, SSJ3 is 400x that so going by the next number in the pattern then you would have to assume that SSJ4 would be at least 800x that. But 4000X?? Also the fact that you say you trust Death Battle as a credible source for information is hilarious. They botched up both Goku Vs Superman death battles with their so called "Reach search". Hell, they completely rushed fight 2 before any legitimate information on SSG or SSGSS was even released. They, as far as we too, knew nothing about the transformations. Did that stop them from making it? Nope. That video looks a bit stupid now after we found out that SSG Goku with his clash with Beerus had the power to level the entire universe with just 3 punches.

Look, If you want to discredit the SSJ4 part of my post then fine, do so. However, you discredited the rest of my post even though the rest of it had nothing to do with the SSJ4 transformation. I thought I constructed a very good argument and brought up some very key points that were worth mention to further the debate. You didn't even hear it out. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you are wrong. I'm just saying that with everything I'm presented with doesn't add up with your numbers. Your numbers for transformations 1-3 are spot on but number 4 takes such a ridiculous leap that there is no way I can take it serious and in all honestly is nothing more than fan theory. While the number I gave might not be entirely "official", its at least backed up by something. It really all I got that I could find that seems believable in my books.

I never said SSJ4 was 4000x SSJ3. I said it was 4000x base. Here is where I get that information from.

[youtube]watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA[/youtube]

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2045947-multiplier-for-ssj4/

Aug 07, 14 at 8:07am ^re: What is the multiplier for SSJ4?

quote SgtMartin
There isn't an official ssj4 multiplier. Its suppose to release a sayians max power level, same as ssj3.
their is an official 10x ssj3

quote epicnessbeyond
quote SgtMartin
There isn't an official ssj4 multiplier. Its suppose to release a sayians max power level, same as ssj3.
their is an official 10x ssj3
That's not official, that's the commonly accepted one.

While I'll agree that the SSJ4 multiplier is not canon. It is widely accepted that it is 10xSSJ3 or 4000xbase. Use common sense for christ sake. As a SSJ 4, Super Baby Vegeta couldn't touch Goku and even when Baby transformed into Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta, Goku was still on par with him. Transforming into an Ozaru is a 10x multiplier. That's fact. So with Goku still being able to fight on par with Baby as a Golden Ozaru with Baby only being maybe a little stronger than SSJ4 Goku. That leads me to believe that as a SSJ4, Goku was 10x stronger than a SSJ3. Watch the Youtube videos from people in the DBZ community(Qaaman, Geekdom101, Super Jaiyan, Dragon Ball Nation, LaughingStockMedia, Rhymestyle, etc). They all say the same thing and so does Kanzenshuu.

 

[lenguy]

I never said SSJ4 was 4000x SSJ3. I said it was 4000x base. Here is where I get that information from.

[youtube]watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA[/youtube]

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2045947-multiplier-for-ssj4/

Not even going to dignify.

As a SSJ 4, Super Baby Vegeta couldn't touch Goku and even when Baby transformed into Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta, Goku was still on par with him. Transforming into an Ozaru is a 10x multiplier. That's fact. So with Goku still being able to fight on par with Baby as a Golden Ozaru with Baby only being maybe a little stronger than SSJ4 Goku. That leads me to believe that as a SSJ4, Goku was 10x stronger than a SSJ3.

I take all these accounts into consideration. Goku faced off against Super Baby Vegeta as a SSJ3. The powers of his SSJ3 Transformation were strained due to his child body and he couldn't use it to its full potential. When Goku grew his tail he was able to sustain the form longer but I speculate his child body still held a fair portion of reservation on the SSJ3 Power.

I also speculate that Baby himself isn't really all that powerful. His true power lies in infecting people and taking over their bodies. When he infected Vegeta it was a combination of his powers plus that of Vegeta. He then has to drain the citizens of the world of their energy he transforms again into Super Baby Vegeta. Had Goku been an adult and he fought Baby as a full powered Super Saiyan 3 then I suspect he could have held his own for a time.

Plus a note on the 10x power for Ozaru. The transformation is 10x that but since hes a golden Ozaru then wouldn't that make the multiplier 60x? 10x for the Ozaru form and 50x for the Super Saiyan form. I don't know.

SSJ4 Goku and Golden Ozaru Baby were fairly on par with each other, yes. The exact powers are still really unclear. I did find this on the DB Wiki though. Take it for what its worth.

According to the video game Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Baby Vegeta 2's power level is 1,300,000,000 and Great Ape Baby's power level is 1,580,000,000. When fought again in a special mission his power level is 1,559,936,524 as Super Baby 2 and 1,895,922,852 as Great Ape Baby. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Baby

Watch the Youtube videos from people in the DBZ community(Qaaman, Geekdom101, Super Jaiyan, Dragon Ball Nation, LaughingStockMedia, Rhymestyle, etc). They all say the same thing and so does Kanzenshuu.

The power multiplier you mentioned is nothing more than fan theory. I couldn't find anything on Kanzenshuu aside from forum discussions. Those videos that you memtioned. Qaaman, Geekdom ect, ect have all stressed that the 10x SSJ3 is pure fan speculation

Spoiler

[YOUTUBE]aNbfDy3QHMk[/YOUTUBE] Skip to 8:30

There is no official answer to how much the multiplier it is increased by because, power levels are bullshit. The only thing I could find that even remotely comes close to being official is the link I provided and even then its really unclear. Common sense tells me, okay, 50x base for a Super Saiyan? That makes perfect sense and I can get behind that. Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as a Super Saiyan? That also makes perfect sense. Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times as strong as a Super Saiyan two at 400x base? That's a bigger leap in power sure but it still in the realm of possibility so I can swallow that. But common sense drops at 4000x base. To me, that's just too big of a leap in power when you just look at the pattern in power multipliers from transformations 1-3. Being widely accepted and official are two completely different things. If its not official then its not real. If its not real then I can't get behind it. To me, 10x the power of a Super Saiyan is a good multiplier and its the one I'm going to trust in the most, even if its wrong. Its the more accurate of the multiplier. I know its wrong but I have to go with something and I'm going to go with that one because at least that multiplier actually has some credible backing and not fan fiction.

 

[SSJPhenom]

10 x SSJ is fan fiction. It came from a video game that was not made by Toei or Toriyama.

Also, you discredit your own theory by saying that Golden Ozaru should up Baby Vegeta's power by 60x because if that's the case then SSJ4 should up Goku's power by 60-65x SSJ3 since he was weaker than Baby Vegeta as a SSJ3 and on par with Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4, but no, Super Baby Vegeta was already a SSJ when he turned into the Golden Ozaru. So I look at it as he can't get the SSJ multiplier twice, so I only count the 10x multiplier.

If Goku goes from being weaker than Super Baby Vegeta as a SSJ3 to being on par with Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4, the multiplier has to be more than 2xSSJ3. I'm sticking with the 10xSSJ3, 4000xbase assumption. It might be fan theory, but it makes more sense to me. Did you see how over powered SSJ4 was?.

 

[lenguy]

10 x SSJ is fan fiction. It came from a video game that was not made by Toei or Toriyama.

This is true but it has more legitimacy being a part and associated with a DB product than being pure 100% fan speculation. 4000x base is just that. 100% pure fan fiction. Then again, Toriyama had little to zero involvement from GT to begin with so everything about GT is essentially fan fiction. The way I see it; the game is an actual licensed DB product with the backing of Toei then to me that means more credential than what some random fans say on the internet.

Also, you discredit your own theory by saying that Golden Ozaru should up Baby Vegeta's power by 60x because if that's the case then SSJ4 should up Goku's power by 60-65x SSJ3 since he was weaker than Baby Vegeta as a SSJ3 and on par with Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4, but no, Super Baby Vegeta was already a SSJ when he turned into the Golden Ozaru. So I look at it as he can't get the SSJ multiplier twice, so I only count the 10x multiplier.

I wasn't really trying to discredit it. It was something that just dawned on me while I was typing that out. I read an interesting theory that states that each form baby takes while infesting Vegeta is actually the different stages of Super Saiyan. So Baby Vegeta is a Super Saiyan while Super baby Vegeta form one is a Super Saiyan two and Super Baby Vegeta is a Super Saiyan 3. Here's the quote I found on DB Wiki.

Spoiler

This form might be a version of Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 3; the first volume of the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files states that "Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3";[3] this claim is supported by the fact that the form lacks eyebrows and has the augmented browline, Vegeta could have used Baby's extra power to reach the form, and also because of Baby Vegeta's previous two forms can be seen as his equivalents to Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. Additionally, in the video game Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 has 1.25x the power of Super Saiyan 3, and Baby's Golden Great Ape form has around 1.2x the power of his Super Baby 2 form, suggesting that it is Super Saiyan 3. Additionally it is noted in the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files that his hair is longer in this state than in his previous forms - one of which is confirmed to be Super Saiyan, and the other of which is implied to be Super Saiyan 2. The extremely long hair might be absent due to Baby shaping it to match his own appearance.

It might be nothing more than just a theory but I found it interesting and thought I should bring it up.

If Goku goes from being weaker than Super Baby Vegeta as a SSJ3 to being on par with Golden Ozaru Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4, the multiplier has to be more than 2xSSJ3. I'm sticking with the 10xSSJ3, 4000xbase assumption. It might be fan theory, but it makes more sense to me. Did you see how over powered SSJ4 was?.

I actually didn't think SSJ4 was overpowered compared to most GT villains. He had difficulty with Super 17. Hell he didn't even beat Super 17 as a SSJ4. He was on par with Nuova Shenron. He easily brushed aside Eis Shenron. The other Shadow dragons weren't overly strong either. It was only until he fought Syn/Omega Shenron where Goku as a SSJ4 was really put to the test. Hell Goku as a SSJ4 even struggled to lift a building lol. Inconsistency at its finest. Back to Omega though. Even SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta couldn't match him and they're only choice was to fuse. Again, Goku wasn't even a Super Saiyan 4 when he defeated Omega.

No doubt SSJ4 is powerful but I don't think its as over powered as people think it is. There is just no real evidence to support that but if people keep spouting out random nonsense like 4000x base or 10x powerful than a SSJ3 then yeah, I can see how some might think SSJ4 is over powered.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I'm going to disprove that video game info you have so much faith in and Dragon Ball Wiki right now.

We agree that the first three SSJ multipliers are fact, right? Just so we're clear; SSJ=basex50, SSJ2=SSJx2 or basex100, and SSJ3=SSJ2x4 or basex400, right?

Well according to Dragon Ball Wiki and that video game you keep referencing, this is Baby Vegeta's power levels:

According to the video game Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Baby Vegeta 2's power level is 1,300,000,000 and Great Ape Baby's power level is 1,580,000,000. When fought again in a special mission his power level is 1,559,936,524 as Super Baby 2 and 1,895,922,852 as Great Ape Baby.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Vegeta

Those numbers can't even be close to accurate and here's why. I'm just going to take Goku's power level from the Frieza Saga and run it through the SSJ mutltipliers and here's what we get:

Base=3,000,000
SSJ=150,000,000
SSJ2=300,000,000
SSJ3=1,200,000,000

So that would mean that if those numbers from that game are accurate then if Goku could've gone SSJ3 in the Frieza Saga he would've been on par with Baby Vegeta and no matter which one of us if closer to correct on the SSJ4 multiplier, he would've been much stronger than Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4 no matter which multiplier we use. So that game or Dragon Ball Wiki can't really be trusted. If those numbers are even close to accurate, then Goku as a mere SSJ in GT should've been able to annihilate Baby Vegeta in any form.

I'm telling you, if you stop and think it through, SSJ4=SSJ3x10 or basex4,000 makes sense.

 

[lenguy]

I'm going to disprove that video game info you have so much faith in and Dragon Ball Wiki right now.

We agree that the first three SSJ multipliers are fact, right? Just so we're clear; SSJ=basex50, SSJ2=SSJx2 or basex100, and SSJ3=SSJ2x4 or basex400, right?

Well according to Dragon Ball Wiki and that video game you keep referencing, this is Baby Vegeta's power levels:



http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Vegeta

Those numbers can't even be close to accurate and here's why. I'm just going to take Goku's power level from the Frieza Saga and run it through the SSJ mutltipliers and here's what we get:

Base=3,000,000
SSJ=150,000,000
SSJ2=300,000,000
SSJ3=1,200,000,000

So that would mean that if those numbers from that game are accurate then if Goku could've gone SSJ3 in the Frieza Saga he would've been on par with Baby Vegeta and no matter which one of us if closer to correct on the SSJ4 multiplier, he would've been much stronger than Baby Vegeta as a SSJ4 no matter which multiplier we use. So that game or Dragon Ball Wiki can't really be trusted. If those numbers are even close to accurate, then Goku as a mere SSJ in GT should've been able to annihilate Baby Vegeta in any form.

I'm telling you, if you stop and think it through, SSJ4=SSJ3x10 or basex4,000 makes sense.

The video game info could be neither wrong nor right because every power level reading after the Trunks saga is utter speculation. So it is neither wrong nor right. Everything we are talking about is nothing but speculation. I'm just going by what makes sense to me and the drastic jump from SSJ3 being 400x base to 4000x base as a SSJ4 is completely over the top and makes absolutely no sense as far as the pattern in the Super Saiyan multipliers go. I can get behind 800x or 1000x at most but a 4000x base is just such an astronomical leap in power that I can't get behind it. Even if the 10x Super Saiyan power isn't correct(which, it really isn't). I can at least find the logic in it because of how reasonable it is. I don't even really believe it either the only reason I keep backing it is because it has more credible backing than this 4000x base people keep spouting with absolutely no way to even prove its own legitimacy. I'm sorry dude but this is just what I believe and Its obvious you feel a very different way. I know DB leaves a lot to question(power levels being a key one) and its fun to get into these little debates. Its what makes this community so awesome because there are endless discussions and debates about these very topics. Until Toriyama or Toei come out and say what exactly these numbers are then we will never know for sure. So I'm going to end this debate right now and just say that we are both right even if we are both wrong.

But its definitely in agreement that SSGSS Vegito would thrash SSJ4 Gogeta?

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #27: How Strong Is SSJ4?​

Hey DBZ fans! I Am Phenom here and I'm bringing everyone yet another topic for us to discuss. So for those of you that haven't been paying attention; lenguy and I have been having a little disagreement on how much the SSJ4 transformation ups a Saiyan's power level. So this topic is simple; what do you think the SSJ4 multiplier is?

Lenguy says that it ups a Saiyan's power by 10xSSJ or 500xbase. He's even said that he's willing to believe that SSJ4 ups a Saiyan's power by as much as 1,000xbase. I, on the other hand, believe that the SSJ4 multiplier is much higher than that. I think it's 4,000xbase. Maybe even higher! Sounds absurd doesn't it? Well DBZ fans let me explain my reasoning. It's fact that SSJ is 50xbase, SSJ2 is 2xSSJ (100xbase), and SSJ3 is 4xSSJ2 (400xbase). We know that stuff. In GT, as a SSJ3, it appeared that Goku was on par with Baby Vegeta. He was able to punch Baby Vegeta and he was able to shrug off a punch from Baby Vegeta. Goku, however, wasn't able to maintain SSJ3 in his child form and quickly regressed back to his base. After being defeated by Baby Vegeta, Goku got help from Elder Kai and Kabito Kai in growing his tail back. Since he was a child again he could now regrow his tail. As we know from DB, Goku gets stronger when his tail grows back. So with his tail back, Goku was now able to maintain the SSJ3 form as a child (longer than before anyways). Baby Vegeta, though, had absorbed the power of the half Saiyans and the rest of the people that he had taken over and he became Super Baby Vegeta. So even as a SSJ3, Goku was no match for Super Baby Vegeta. Goku then, after being beaten down by Super Baby Vegeta, transformed into a Golden Great Ape by using the Earth as a substitute for the full moon. Once he gained control as a Golden Great Ape he transformed again into a SSJ4. Which, as we know, is a Saiyan/Great Ape hybrid. One thing we know for sure about SSJ4 is that it transforms a Saiyans body so that they can better handle the ungodly power increase. Unlike SSJ3, SSJ4 can be maintained for significant periods of time. We also know that Super Baby Vegeta was no match for SSJ4 Goku. So what did he do? He had Bulma find a way to manipulate bluntz waves and transform him into Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta. There is uncertainty surrounding how much stronger this made Super Baby Vegeta. It's fact that the Great Ape transformation increases a Saiyan's power by 10x, but this is a Golden Great Ape we're talking about. So is the multiplier the same or higher? IDK, but since Super Baby Vegeta was already a SSJ, I'm just going to use the 10x multiplier. Other wise he'd be getting the SSJ multiplier twice. So as a Golden Great Ape, Super Baby Vegeta was now at least 10x stronger than before. Why is that significant? It's significant because SSJ4 Goku was still on par with Super Baby Vegeta in the Golden Great Ape form. Goku was able to hurt him with punches and other attacks.

So let's look at the evidence. As a SSJ3, Goku is weaker than Super Baby Vegeta. As a SSJ4, he's a lot stronger than Super Baby Vegeta and on par with Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta who is at least 10x stronger than Super Baby Vegeta. So, going by that, I believe that SSJ4 has to be at least 10x stronger than SSJ3. Which makes it 4,000xbase. Considering SSJ3 Goku was weaker than Super Baby Vegeta, but SSJ4 Goku was on par with Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta which was at least 10x stronger than Super Baby Vegeta; then SSJ4 should actually be about 12x stronger than SSJ3 or 4,800xbase. I'll stick with the nice round numbers of 10xSSJ3 or 4,000xbase though.

What do you guys think? Am I way off base here? Do you agree with me? Which ever it is, tell me why. Let me know your opinions.

 

[Trill Co$by]

But its definitely in agreement that SSGSS Vegito would thrash SSJ4 Gogeta?

Considering base form Vegito is much stronger than Base form Gogeta, that's not even a question. Even if there was an SSGSS Gogeta, he would still lose to Vegito. The power level of Gogeta is Goku + Vegeta, and Goku is at a loss already because he'd have to lower his power to match Vegeta's. Meanwhile, Vegito is Goku x Vegeta, and Goku doesn't have to lower his power level at all. So basically, Gogeta is going to get a serious thrashing no matter what happens.

 

[SSJPhenom]

While I agree with your premise, if you're using current day Vegeta and Goku, you're wrong about Goku having to lower his power to fuse with Vegeta. They're around the same power level right now. Still though, Vegito is always going to be stronger than Gogeta. I think that even a SSJ3 Vegito would be stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I have finally come up with plausible power levels for the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F films following the Toriyama formula of SSG Goku being a 6, Beerus being a 10, and Whis being a 15.

Here we go:

Goku: 100,000,000
-(SSJ): 5,000,000,000
-(SSJ2): 10,000,000,000
-(SSJ3): 40,000,000,000
-(Saiyan Beyond God): 80,000,000,000
-(SSG): 600,000,000,000
-(SSGSS): 800,000,000,000

Vegeta: 80,000,000
-(SSJ): 4,000,000,000
-(SSJ2): 8,000,000,000
-(Rage Boost SSJ2): 50,000,000,000
-(Saiyan Beyond God): 80,000,000,000
-(SSGSS): 800,000,000,000

Freeza: 280,000,000
-(Final Form): 70,000,000,000
-(Golden Freeza): 850,000,000,000

Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000

Whis: 1,500,000,000,000

What do you guys think? Too high or too low? Plausible? Let me know your opinions.