The Dragon Ball Z Thread

[SSJPhenom]

Calling all DBZ fans!!!! In celebration of the Dragon Ball movie and series being released, I'm going to post a new DBZ thread every week with various topics. Topics like: Who is the strongest human, how powerful is Broly, was Ultra Super Saiyan as strong or even stronger than Super Saiyan 2, what if future Trunks came back during the Buu Saga, etc. My first topic is going to be about the most widely debated topic among DBZ fans: Power Levels.

Before I get started I want to mention that I will be following the Manga for the most part. Also, I am going to add in the different debated levels among characters. For example: Was Vegito just a Super Saiyan or was he at Super Saiyan 2? I'll do levels for both. Here we go.

Raditz Saga:

Farmer: 5
Piccolo: 322
-(W/O Weights): 400
-(1st Special Beam Cannon): 1,330
-(2nd Special Beam Cannon): 1,440
Goku: 330
-(W/O Weights): 416
-(Kamehameha): 950
Gohan: 710
-(Angry): 1,370
Raditz: 1,200
Krillin: 206
Master Roshi: 139
Turtle: 0.0001

Vegeta Saga:

Piccolo: 1,400
-(Maxed Out): 3,000
Krillin: 1,100
-(Energy Blast): 2,200
Gohan: 900
-(Masenko): 2,800
-(Great Ape): 9,000
Siabamen: 1,200
Tien: 1,300
-(Tri Beam): 3,500
Yamcha: 1,000
Chiatzu: 700
Nappa: 4,000
-(Full Power): 7,000
Goku: 5,000
-(Full Power): 8,000
-(Kiaoken): 12,000
-(Kiaoken x2): 16,000
-(Kiaoken x3): 24,000
-(Kiaoken x4): 32,000
Vegeta: 18,000
-(Galick Gun): 24,000
-(Great Ape): 180,000
Yajirobi: 800

Namek Saga:

Gohan: 1,500
-(Power Unlocked): 20,000
Krillin: 1,500
-(Power Unlocked): 16,000
Vegeta: 24,000
-(Recovered from Zarbon): 36,000
Namekain Warriors: 1,000
-(Full Power): 3,000
Nail: 42,000
Frieza's Henchmen: 1,200
Cui: 18,000
Dadoria: 22,000
Zarbon: 23,000
-(Transformed): 33,000
Frieza: 540,000

Ginyu Force Saga:

Gohan: 20,000
-(Recovered from Recoome): 100,000
Krillin: 16,000
Vegeta: 36,000
-(Recovered from Recoome): 150,000
Goku: 90,000
-(Kiaoken x2): 180,000
-(Inside Ginyu's Body): 20,000
Guldo: 10,000
Recoome: 50,000
Burter: 55,000
Jeice: 60,000
Captain Ginyu: 120,000
-(Inside Goku's Body): 23,000

Frieza Saga:

Krillin: 16,000
Gohan: 100,000
-(After Krillin's Stabbed): 500,000
-(Recovered from Frieza): 200,000
-(Masenko): 1,500,000
Nail: 42,000
Piccolo: 30,000
-(Fused with Nail): 920,000
Vegeta: 150,000
-(Recovered from Krillin): 250,000
Goku: 300,000
-(Kiaoken x10): 3,000,000
-(Kiaoken x20): 6,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 15,000,000
Frieza: 540,000
-(2nd Form): 1,000,000
-(3rd Form): 2,000,000
-(Final Form 1%): 120,000
-(Final Form 10%): 1,200,000
-(Final Form 25%): 3,000,000
-(Final Form 50%): 6,000,000
-(Final Form 100%): 12,000,000

Trunks Saga:

Krillin: 50,000
Yamcha: 35,000
Tien: 45,000
Chiatzu: 15,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000
Gohan: 250,000
Vegeta: 350,000
Trunks: 340,000
-(Super Saiyan): 17,000,000
Goku: 400,000
-(Super Saiyan): 20,000,000
King Cold: 14,000,000
Mecca Frieza: 16,000,000

Android Saga:

Krillin: 200,000
Yamcha: 150,000
Tien: 250,000
Gohan: 400,000
Piccolo: 28,000,000
Trunks: 600,000
-(Super Saiyan): 30,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Vegeta: 740,000
-(Super Saiyan): 38,000,000
Android 19: 22,000,000
Dr. Gero: 25,000,000
Android 18: 40,000,000
Android 17: 45,000,000
Android 16: 50,000,000

Imperfect Cell Saga:

Gohan: 400,000
Trunks: 600,000
-(Super Saiyan): 30,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Vegeta: 740,000
-(Super Saiyan): 38,000,000
Piccolo: 28,000,000
-(Fused with Kami): 45,000,000
Android 18: 40,000,000
Android 17: 45,000,000
Android 16: 50,000,000
Imperfect Cell: 38,000,000
-(Humans Absorbed): 50,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell Saga:

Gohan: 400,000
Tien: 250,000
-(Tri Beam): 2,500,000
Piccolo: 45,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Vegeta: 740,000
-(After Time Chamber): 1,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 50,000,000
-(Ultra Super Saiyan): 100,000,000
Trunks: 600,000
-(After Time Chamber) 1,100,000
-(Super Saiyan): 55,000,000
-(Ultra Super Saiyan): 110,000,000
Imperfect Cell: 50,000,000
-(17 Absorbed): 95,000,000
-(18 Absorbed): 135,000,000

Cell Games Saga:

Piccolo: 45,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 70,000,000
Trunks: 1,100,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 1,700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 85,000,000
Vegeta: 1,000,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 1,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 90,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(After Time Chamber): 2,200,000
-(Super Saiyan): 110,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 130,000,000
Gohan: 400,000
-(After Time Chamber): 2,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 100,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 120,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 200,000,000
Cell Jrs: 95,000,000
Perfect Cell: 135,000,000
-(Bulked Up): 170,000,000
-(Super Perfect Cell): 195,000,000

World Tournament Saga:

Krillin: 300,000
Goten: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Trunks: 750,000
-(Super Saiyan): 37,500,000
Android 18: 40,000,000
Piccolo: 75,000,000
Kabito: 60,000,000
Supreme Kai: 80,000,000
Gohan: 1,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 90,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 180,000,000
Vegeta: 2,800,000
Goku: 3,000,000
Spoppavich: 10,000
Yamu: 15,000

Buu Saga:

Krillin: 300,000
Kabito: 60,000,000
Piccolo: 75,000,000
Supreme Kai: 80,000,000
Kabito Kai: 140,000,000
Goten: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Trunks: 750,000
-(Super Saiyan): 37,500,000
Gotenks: 1,450,000
-(Super Saiyan): 72,500,000
-(After Time Chamber): 3,375,000
-(Super Saiyan): 168,750,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 675,000,000
Gohan: 1,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 90,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 180,000,000
-(Ultimate Gohan): 760,000,000
Vegeta: 2,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 140,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 280,000,000
-(Majin Vegeta): 300,000,000
Goku: 3,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 150,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 300,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 600,000,000
Vegito: 11,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 575,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 1,500,000,000
Pui Pui: 2,000,000
Yakon: 30,000,000
Dabura: 130,000,000
Majin Buu: 325,000,000
Evil Buu: 350,000,000
Super Buu: 675,000,000
-(Buucolo): 750,000,000
-(Buutenks): 1,395,000,000
-(Buuhan): 1,425,000,000
Kid Buu: 595,000,000

Well that's my list. Let me know what you guys think. Am I way off, am I on track. If you have a question about anything, let me know.

 

[lenguy]

Ugh, I hate power levels. They are always so up there you know? I've read many things on them. By the time the Buu Saga rolled around, power levels were so ridiculously high that they just weren't worth calculating. That and, for the most part, they are all over the place. The whole point of the scouter was to show how inaccurate power levels really are.

Everything up till the Trunks Saga is official, but everything after that is not and just pure speculation. But just going on speculation, lets take a look anyway.

Android Saga:

Krillin: 200,000
Yamcha: 150,000
Tien: 250,000
Gohan: 400,000
Piccolo: 28,000,000
Trunks: 600,000
-(Super Saiyan): 30,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Vegeta: 740,000
-(Super Saiyan): 38,000,000
Android 19: 22,000,000
Dr. Gero: 25,000,000
Android 18: 40,000,000
Android 17: 45,000,000
Android 16: 50,000,000

The only thing I have an issue here with is Piccolo. Piccolo was strong yes. Out of the 3 Super Saiyans, He would definitely be 4th in line. But to place him that close to a Super Saiyan at that time is a bit of a stretch. I'd place him more comfortably at 20,000,000. Therefore that means Dr Gero would also drop to around 10,000,000-15,000,000.

Cell Games Saga:

Piccolo: 45,000,000
-(After Time Chamber): 70,000,000
Trunks: 1,100,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 1,700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 85,000,000
Vegeta: 1,000,000
-(2nd Time Chamber): 1,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 90,000,000
Goku: 700,000
-(After Time Chamber): 2,200,000
-(Super Saiyan): 110,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 130,000,000
Gohan: 400,000
-(After Time Chamber): 2,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 100,000,000
-(Full Power Super Saiyan): 120,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 200,000,000
Cell Jrs: 95,000,000
Perfect Cell: 135,000,000
-(Bulked Up): 170,000,000
-(Super Perfect Cell): 195,000,000

Couple things here. You are saying that both Trunks and Vegeta got weaker from training the second time in the hyperbolic time chamber? I think to be fair, they should be at least on par with their *ultra* forms as regular Super Saiyans. Also Super Saiyan 2 Gohan I figure would be a bit higher. From what most people think, 250 million - 350 million seems to be the neighborhood they would place him at. 200 million just seems a bit low. Therefore, Super Perfect Cell would naturally be higher as well. Around the same ball park.

Buu Saga:

Krillin: 300,000
Kabito: 60,000,000
Piccolo: 75,000,000
Supreme Kai: 80,000,000
Kabito Kai: 140,000,000
Goten: 700,000
-(Super Saiyan): 35,000,000
Trunks: 750,000
-(Super Saiyan): 37,500,000
Gotenks: 1,450,000
-(Super Saiyan): 72,500,000
-(After Time Chamber): 3,375,000
-(Super Saiyan): 168,750,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 675,000,000
Gohan: 1,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 90,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 180,000,000
-(Ultimate Gohan): 760,000,000
Vegeta: 2,800,000
-(Super Saiyan): 140,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 280,000,000
-(Majin Vegeta): 300,000,000
Goku: 3,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 150,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 300,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 3): 600,000,000
Vegito: 11,500,000
-(Super Saiyan): 575,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 1,500,000,000
Pui Pui: 2,000,000
Yakon: 30,000,000
Dabura: 130,000,000
Majin Buu: 325,000,000
Evil Buu: 350,000,000
Super Buu: 675,000,000
-(Buucolo): 750,000,000
-(Buutenks): 1,395,000,000
-(Buuhan): 1,425,000,000
Kid Buu: 595,000,000

My main issue here is Goku SSj3 and Vegito SSJ. For starters, Vegito never went SSJ2. Two, Goku Struggled against Buutenks as a Super Saiyan 3. So by your assessment here, Goku as a SSJ3 could hold his own against Buuhan more than Super Saiyan Vegitio, even though Vegito only went into a regular Super Saiyan form to combat against Buuhan. Replace Super Saiyan Vegitos power with the power you have for his SSJ2 form and then it would be more accurate. If Vegitos power was 1,500,000,000 then his base would be 30,000,000. Also, Vegito as a Super Saiyan was supposedly vastly superior to Buuhan. If their powers were that close to each other, then the fight would have been far more even. It wasn't. Buuhan barely managed to touch Vegito. So I think that Buuhan is too high. 1,000,000,000 seems nice.

All in all, solid but for all we know, they could be way off so who knows. Curious why you didn't post any Battle of Gods are Resurrection F power levels.

 

[SSJPhenom]

The only thing I have an issue here with is Piccolo. Piccolo was strong yes. Out of the 3 Super Saiyans, He would definitely be 4th in line. But to place him that close to a Super Saiyan at that time is a bit of a stretch. I'd place him more comfortably at 20,000,000. Therefore that means Dr Gero would also drop to around 10,000,000-15,000,000.

I feel very comfortable with their power levels where they're at. First off, I refuse to believe that Dr. Gero and #19 were weaker than Frieza. Also, in both the anime and Manga, Krillin stated that Piccolo's power was very close to that of a Super Saiyan's while he was fighting Gero.

Couple things here. You are saying that both Trunks and Vegeta got weaker from training the second time in the hyperbolic time chamber? I think to be fair, they should be at least on par with their *ultra* forms as regular Super Saiyans. Also Super Saiyan 2 Gohan I figure would be a bit higher. From what most people think, 250 million - 350 million seems to be the neighborhood they would place him at. 200 million just seems a bit low. Therefore, Super Perfect Cell would naturally be higher as well. Around the same ball park.

Trunks and Vegeta didn't get weaker, they just never used their Ultra forms again. Also, their power levels didn't increase as much the second time because of the grueling nature of the training. Which was one of the reasons Goku didn't go back in. Lastly, I made their power levels that way because they had serious trouble with the Cell Jr's.

My main issue here is Goku SSj3 and Vegito SSJ. For starters, Vegito never went SSJ2. Two, Goku Struggled against Buutenks as a Super Saiyan 3. So by your assessment here, Goku as a SSJ3 could hold his own against Buuhan more than Super Saiyan Vegitio, even though Vegito only went into a regular Super Saiyan form to combat against Buuhan. Replace Super Saiyan Vegitos power with the power you have for his SSJ2 form and then it would be more accurate. If Vegitos power was 1,500,000,000 then his base would be 30,000,000. Also, Vegito as a Super Saiyan was supposedly vastly superior to Buuhan. If their powers were that close to each other, then the fight would have been far more even. It wasn't. Buuhan barely managed to touch Vegito. So I think that Buuhan is too high. 1,000,000,000 seems nice.

You should 're-read the levels. I have SSJ3 Goku at a mere 600 million while Buutenks is at 1 billion 395 million. I don't see how Goku would hold his own against that. Also, if you'll recall, when Vegito transformed he had all of the signs of a SSJ2. Extremely spiked hair and an electric aura. He also continued to produce an electric aura throughout the fight. Also, I feel comfortable with the gap between Vegito and Buuhan. I have Vegito at 75 million higher than Buuhan. That's a pretty wide margin. Z fighters have dominated fights with a lot less of a gap than that.

All in all, solid but for all we know, they could be way off so who knows. Curious why you didn't post any Battle of Gods are Resurrection F power levels.

I didn't do those movies because no information has been released on how much the SSG and SSGSS levels increase their powers.

 

[lenguy]

I feel very comfortable with their power levels where they're at. First off, I refuse to believe that Dr. Gero and #19 were weaker than Frieza. Also, in both the anime and Manga, Krillin stated that Piccolo's power was very close to that of a Super Saiyan's while he was fighting Gero.

Close to what degree by marginal comparison? 28 million is close, 25 million is also fairly close. I'd even argue that 20 million is close at that time. Piccolo is 28 million while Trunks is 30. Piccolo may be strong but I just have a hard time beleving that Piccolo can match a Super Saiyans power by that close. Even if stated in both the Manga and Anime, its still pretty vague when they state something like that since when don't really have much a comparison. Another point, Dr Gero had failed to impute the calculations needed to include everything that happened on Namek. That's a pretty large chapter he omitted from his database. Not to mention he was also unaware of the fact that the Z fighters were warned of their arrival. that's mistake number 2. taking into those factors then yes, I think it would be fair to assume that 19 and 20 were indeed weaker than full powered Frieza.

Also as the series progresses and power levels do increase, something that would seem like a big number increase difference like a few million doesn't actually mean much as we go on. Goku as a Super Saiyan was said to be 150 million while fighting frieza. Frieza was said to be 120 million(dragon ball Wiki). That's a 30 million gap but yet up until the end, it was a fair even battle despite the huge number gap. Also, I was thinking that their powers at the time were both 15 and 12 million respectively for some reason. But see that they were actually that powerful means every power you put down was pretty way off.

Trunks and Vegeta didn't get weaker, they just never used their Ultra forms again. Also, their power levels didn't increase as much the second time because of the grueling nature of the training. Which was one of the reasons Goku didn't go back in. Lastly, I made their power levels that way because they had serious trouble with the Cell Jr's.

Fair point.

You should 're-read the levels. I have SSJ3 Goku at a mere 600 million while Buutenks is at 1 billion 395 million. I don't see how Goku would hold his own against that. Also, if you'll recall, when Vegito transformed he had all of the signs of a SSJ2. Extremely spiked hair and an electric aura. He also continued to produce an electric aura throughout the fight. Also, I feel comfortable with the gap between Vegito and Buuhan. I have Vegito at 75 million higher than Buuhan. That's a pretty wide margin. Z fighters have dominated fights with a lot less of a gap than that.

The point I was trying to make was that theoretically, by your numbers, Goku SSj3 would have a better chance at fighting Buutenks than SSJ Vegito would. Also, its common misconception but Vegito only used his base SSJ form while fighting Buuhan. I think even elder Kai said that the added powers of a Super Saiyan would likely not be needed to defeat Buu. This eludes to the immense strength of Vegito.

I still believe that Vegito should be much higher than Buuhan. As I've stated before, as power levels continue to reach new heights in the series, they eventually become unimaginably large. So large than I think something as seemingly significant difference as 75 million, is in fact rather insignificant. I've pointed this out by comparing the difference in powers between SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza. Vegito didn't even break so much of a sweat fighting Buuhan. It was so much of a difference that Vegito was hardly putting in any effort at all because he was just that much stronger. As I've said, it was eluded that his base form would have been more than enough to beat Buu. Going Super Saiyan is just toying with him at that point.

I didn't do those movies because no information has been released on how much the SSG and SSGSS levels increase their powers.

Just throw out an educated guess seeing as how that's what every power after the Trunks saga is. Not a jab at you,just officially, its any ones guess.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Close to what degree by marginal comparison? 28 million is close, 25 million is also fairly close. I'd even argue that 20 million is close at that time. Piccolo is 28 million while Trunks is 30. Piccolo may be strong but I just have a hard time beleving that Piccolo can match a Super Saiyans power by that close. Even if stated in both the Manga and Anime, its still pretty vague when they state something like that since when don't really have much a comparison. Another point, Dr Gero had failed to impute the calculations needed to include everything that happened on Namek. That's a pretty large chapter he omitted from his database. Not to mention he was also unaware of the fact that the Z fighters were warned of their arrival. that's mistake number 2. taking into those factors then yes, I think it would be fair to assume that 19 and 20 were indeed weaker than full powered Frieza.

Good point.

Also as the series progresses and power levels do increase, something that would seem like a big number increase difference like a few million doesn't actually mean much as we go on. Goku as a Super Saiyan was said to be 150 million while fighting frieza. Frieza was said to be 120 million(dragon ball Wiki). That's a 30 million gap but yet up until the end, it was a fair even battle despite the huge number gap. Also, I was thinking that their powers at the time were both 15 and 12 million respectively for some reason. But see that they were actually that powerful means every power you put down was pretty way off.

I looked at the Dragon Ball wiki page and what you have to realize about that page is that it is also fan made. Let me give you insight into how I viewed the power levels. Vegeta's max on earth was 18,000. After recovering and landing on Namek, his power level was 24,000. That's fact from both the manga and anime. After being defeated by Zarbon and recovering, his power level was in the 30,000s. Why? Because he was still weaker than the Ginyu Force. For Dragon Ball wiki to be anywhere near right, that means that after he recovered from Recoome, his power level increased more than 10x what it was before from a zenkai boost? If that's the case, then Why wasn't his power level much higher than 24,000 after recovering from his battle with Goku? I refuse to believe that he gets these small little zenkai boosts and then all of a sudden his power increases over 10x from one. Same with Goku. He landed on Namek with a power level of 90,000. For Dragon Ball Wiki to be correct that would mean that after he recovered from Ginyu his power increased around 34 times what it was. Why didn't it increase that much from Vegeta? I don't think the power levels from Dragon Ball Wiki are accurate. They just don't make sense.

The point I was trying to make was that theoretically, by your numbers, Goku SSj3 would have a better chance at fighting Buutenks than SSJ Vegito would. Also, its common misconception but Vegito only used his base SSJ form while fighting Buuhan. I think even elder Kai said that the added powers of a Super Saiyan would likely not be needed to defeat Buu. This eludes to the immense strength of Vegito.

I still believe that Vegito should be much higher than Buuhan. As I've stated before, as power levels continue to reach new heights in the series, they eventually become unimaginably large. So large than I think something as seemingly significant difference as 75 million, is in fact rather insignificant. I've pointed this out by comparing the difference in powers between SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza. Vegito didn't even break so much of a sweat fighting Buuhan. It was so much of a difference that Vegito was hardly putting in any effort at all because he was just that much stronger. As I've said, it was eluded that his base form would have been more than enough to beat Buu. Going Super Saiyan is just toying with him at that point.

I get your point but logically explain to me how 2 warriors, who aren't a match for Buu at their most powerful which is SSJ3 and SSJ2 respectively going to fuse and then be more powerful then Buu in their weakest form? If the potara fusion was that strong then why didn't Kabito Kai get way stronger? Also, I don't think Vegito was that much more powerful then Buu. Sure he was stronger, but remember, when Buu got angry and started to rip holes in the dimension, Vegito struggled to break through his force field to stop him.

 

[Барбоса]

I get your point but logically explain to me how 2 warriors, who aren't a match for Buu at their most powerful which is SSJ3 and SSJ2 respectively going to fuse and then be more powerful then Buu in their weakest form? If the potara fusion was that strong then why didn't Kabito Kai get way stronger? Also, I don't think Vegito was that much more powerful then Buu. Sure he was stronger, but remember, when Buu got angry and started to rip holes in the dimension, Vegito struggled to break through his force field to stop him.

Pretty certain that the seeming disparity in Vegito's level when compared with Vegeta and Goku is addressed in the show with Elder Kai speaking of how the rivalry and opposite characters of Vegeta and Goku made for a far more potent fusion than a normal potara fusion such as Elder Kai himself and Kaibito.

You also have to remember that Vegito had no intention of destroying Buu so he could save his sons. He was holding back at all stages. Even when the universe was threatened by Buu's anger, when he could likely have powered up some ridiculous Kamehameha to burst through Buu's shield and turn him to dust with ease, instead he went with a punch.

Vegito had Buu on toast from the very beginning.

 

[Bernkastel]

I don't like power levels either. Akira Toriyama has stated before that the power level system after the Frieza saga was essentially bullshit. As all the characters had reached levels where they couldn't feasibly and properly be measured by the technology at the time. And then you have the Kili system used by Babidi which is totally different than the system used by the Galactic Frieza Army, as SSJ Goku had a PL of 3,000, where in the other he had a PL of 150,000,000 [depending on which guidebook translation you use.] And I don't even think you could place a number next to the gods as they have special attributes, and I don't even think the author himself has any idea how powerful they actually are.

But quickly scanning the list I see your PL list is at least consistent with the manga, as people often use the anime, which leads to all kinds of fuckery. Super Buu in base should be > SS3 Goku. And just slightly > than SS3 Gotenks. And SS3 Goku should be slightly > than Kid Buu. The whole reason he lost the fight was due to ki drain. Kid Buu should actually be the second weakest form of Buu.

 

[lenguy]

I looked at the Dragon Ball wiki page and what you have to realize about that page is that it is also fan made. Let me give you insight into how I viewed the power levels. Vegeta's max on earth was 18,000. After recovering and landing on Namek, his power level was 24,000. That's fact from both the manga and anime. After being defeated by Zarbon and recovering, his power level was in the 30,000s. Why? Because he was still weaker than the Ginyu Force. For Dragon Ball wiki to be anywhere near right, that means that after he recovered from Recoome, his power level increased more than 10x what it was before from a zenkai boost? If that's the case, then Why wasn't his power level much higher than 24,000 after recovering from his battle with Goku? I refuse to believe that he gets these small little zenkai boosts and then all of a sudden his power increases over 10x from one. Same with Goku. He landed on Namek with a power level of 90,000. For Dragon Ball Wiki to be correct that would mean that after he recovered from Ginyu his power increased around 34 times what it was. Why didn't it increase that much from Vegeta? I don't think the power levels from Dragon Ball Wiki are accurate. They just don't make sense.

Did you read the sources in which they obtained that information? Among other sources, they used the official DB Daizenshuu guides, which means they are fairly accurate. Depending on which translation you go by, of course. That being said, most people have accepted that Goku was about 150 million while Frieza was 120 million. I mean, I suppose I was a bit premature by saying the numbers you listed were way off. I'm sure if you just tack a few zeros at the end of them then it would be more accurate.

I get your point but logically explain to me how 2 warriors, who aren't a match for Buu at their most powerful which is SSJ3 and SSJ2 respectively going to fuse and then be more powerful then Buu in their weakest form? If the potara fusion was that strong then why didn't Kabito Kai get way stronger? Also, I don't think Vegito was that much more powerful then Buu. Sure he was stronger, but remember, when Buu got angry and started to rip holes in the dimension, Vegito struggled to break through his force field to stop him.

Because the portara fusion was said to be a much more powerful way of fusing. Gotenks was already fairly powerful when he fused. Possessing enough strength as a SSJ3 to at least match Super Buu. Between two children, who I will say are stronger than most of the Z fighters but are rather weak as individuals, that's pretty good. Now when you combine the two strongest fighters in the series(minus Gohan at that time) and with the added boost of the Portara, then it makes sense how strong Vegito was.

Vegito did struggle to break Buu's barrier, sure. That doesn't mean Buu was that strong. It just means Vegito had to exert a bit more strength than he was putting out in order to break it. He wasn't winded after, he wasn't short of breath, nothing. Vegito was far above Buu, the evidence is all there to support that.

Also Kabito Kai got more powerful sure, but individually, Kabito and the supreme Kai weren't all that powerful compared to Goku, Vegeta and even Gohan. They were most definitely weaker than even Dabura considering how worried they were of his presence. Even fused I doubt Kabito Kai could have even defeated fat Buu.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #2: How Strong Is Broly?​

Hi DBZ fans. I'm here with my second weekly DBZ topic. This week I want to discuss how strong Broly, the Legendary Super Saiyan really is.

First off, to judge how strong Broly is, we need to determine how strong his opponents were. The easiest way to that is to determine when in the DBZ timeline the events of Broly: the Legendary Super Saiyan could've possibly taken place. So let's look at who fought Broly. We have Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, and Piccolo. Out of those 5 characters, the two most important for determining the time period would be Trunks and Gohan. Just by observing Trunks' and Gohan's appearance's we can tell what time period the story takes place in. Trunks has long hair. We know that he didn't have hair that long until he came out of the Room of Spirit and Time. So that instantly puts us around the Cell Saga as far as time goes. The most important fact to consider, however, is the fact that Gohan is a Super Saiyan but not yet a Super Saiyan 2. Judging by that evidence, we can determine that the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan takes place sometime during the 10 day reprieve that Cell gave to the Z Fighters to prepare for the Cell Games.

Now that we know when the story takes place, we pretty much know how strong the Z Fighters were that faced Broly. Judging by how Broly faired against them, we can get a pretty good estimate on how strong Broly was. When Goku came out of the time chamber, he was able to fight with Cell on a level playing field. Cell ultimately proved to be a bit stronger than Goku, however, Goku was definitely able to damage Cell. Well Goku couldn't damage Broly at all. As a matter of fact, a full power Kamehameha to Broly's face didn't even do any damage. That same attack blew off half of Cell's body. None of the other Z Fighters could harm Broly either. It was only when Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, and Piccolo channeled all of their power through Goku was he able to harm Broly. So what I've done is added together the power levels of Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, and Piccolo from the Cell Games Saga to get a rough estimate of Broly's power level. That means that Broly's power level as a Legendary Super Saiyan is roughly around 495,000,000! Which means that Broly was stronger than Super Perfect Cell, SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2 Goku, Majin Vegeta, and even Majin Buu. That's amazing when you stop and think about it.

So what do you guys think? Do you think Broly was that powerful or do you think that I'm way off? Tell me what your opinions are.

 

[ABMorales787]

It's not difficult. His transformation was depicted as actually making him stronger and stronger as time passed as opposed to the regular Super Saiyan's who got exhausted. Over time, he would eventually eclipse the strength of anyone if he was around long enough. His defeats were all also unique, requiring the assistance of natural phenomenons. The giant meteor in the first one, a distraction and the sun (sharing that with Cooler) and acid. Aside from Cooler, all other movie villains are dispatched with brute force alone.

 

[Барбоса]

Your first problem is trying to look at Broli's power in the context of the main anime canon. The movies just do not belong there.

Adding together power levels to get to Broli's strength is no use not just because of the canon debacle, translations and power levels being useless post-Namek but also because Goku did not take all of the power of Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. None of them died.

There is also a point carrying on from the previous thread that the differences in power level are not well explained. Does Broli's dominance of Goku mean he is millions and millions ahead or merely a few thousand? Indeed, in his appearances, Broli's feats fluctuate.

Really, Broli and all of the movies cannot be tied into the anime.

That said, much like with Janemba, I think Broli could have been a good villain in the main series if he and his strength was better integrated. His seemingly inexhaustible Hulk-like rage-based power could have seen even someone like Bils back-peddling.

 

[Bernkastel]

I wouldn't put Broly on the level of a SSJ2. I've had this debate/argument many times in the past, and to me he just doesn't seem to be quite at that level. Even when he returns in Second Coming. Perfect Cell beat all the Z Fighters in the same fashion Broly did, except that Goku didn't reach a new level of power against Broly like Gohan did against Cell. And even though Goku did harm Cell, it was clear that Cell was holding back. When he did use his full power the Z Fighters were comparing him to what SSJ2 Gohan had shown up to that point [even though Gohan was holding back himself.] The point of that was to show that at least Goku would have never stood a chance if Cell had used full power from the start. Broly did and it was a one sided beat down. Same thing would have resulted if Cell had been serious and not dicked around. But suggesting Broly to be anywhere near the level of any of the Buu's is certainly a huge stretch. Even Mr. Buu was laughably above a SSJ2.

 

[ABMorales787]

I wouldn't put Broly on the level of a SSJ2. I've had this debate/argument many times in the past, and to me he just doesn't seem to be quite at that level. Even when he returns in Second Coming. Perfect Cell beat all the Z Fighters in the same fashion Broly did, except that Goku didn't reach a new level of power against Broly like Gohan did against Cell. And even though Goku did harm Cell, it was clear that Cell was holding back. When he did use his full power the Z Fighters were comparing him to what SSJ2 Gohan had shown up to that point [even though Gohan was holding back himself.] The point of that was to show that at least Goku would have never stood a chance if Cell had used full power from the start. Broly did and it was a one sided beat down. Same thing would have resulted if Cell had been serious and not dicked around. But suggesting Broly to be anywhere near the level of any of the Buu's is certainly a huge stretch. Even Mr. Buu was laughably above a SSJ2.

Super Cell was finished off by a distraction and 1 SSJ2. Broly was killed with a distraction, 3 ssj's (you could argue 1 SSJ2 but that's why movies never come into series context) and the sun. Cell can heal. Broly can't. That kinda puts the big man above Cell by a considerable margin.

That being said, the pity is Broly never got to do much as the LSSJ. He ran wild for about a grand total of 90 minutes before being killed and his second form was a bad attempt at a horror flick. He was probably the most interesting movie villian in the franchise which is why he's so popular. If anything his powers make it so he could reasonably always be a challenge. A rarity given what had to be done with Freeza.

 

[Bernkastel]

Super Cell was finished off by a distraction and 1 SSJ2. Broly was killed with a distraction, 3 ssj's (you could argue 1 SSJ2 but that's why movies never come into series context) and the sun. Cell can heal. Broly can't. That kinda puts the big man above Cell by a considerable margin.

Technically Goku was dead, so I'd argue that Broly got taken down by 2 SSJ's and one MSSJ. Oh sure, the Dragonballs could have brought Goku back from the dead for an instant, but that would have made little sense and would have been par for DBZ movie plot writing. Cell on the other hand, it took a SSJ2 and a MSSJ to take him down. Piccolo, who was stronger than a SSJ, had attacks that weren't even fazing Cell, but yet SSJ Kid Trunks had enough left in the tank to distract Broly in the same manner.

As for the sun, eh... I'd argue that any character up to the Gods would have been killed if blasted into it.

That being said, the pity is Broly never got to do much as the LSSJ. He ran wild for about a grand total of 90 minutes before being killed and his second form was a bad attempt at a horror flick. He was probably the most interesting movie villian in the franchise which is why he's so popular. If anything his powers make it so he could reasonably always be a challenge. A rarity given what had to be done with Freeza.

I'd actually argue that Janemba was the best movie villain. What I did like about Broly is that he's a no nonsense character. He used full power from the start and didn't dick around like most other DBZ villains. And I think that's a driving reason behind his popularity.

 

[Барбоса]

Broli being restricted by Paragus could have been a good arc for the anime, before going on the rampage. Defeating him would have been a far better way to introduce the fusion dance.

Janemba would be a little more tricky to get a coherent arc out of.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Like I said in my op, my opinion is a rough estimate of Broly's power level. That being said, I feel pretty confident in how strong I find Broly to be. 4 SSJs and Piccolo, who is on par with a regular SSJ couldn't even make Broly flinch. I'm of the opinion that he was weaker in Second Coming because he hadn't fully recovered from his wound from Goku. You can even see in Second Coming that that area of his body looked damaged. Not to mention it burst open in the end. My point, however, is that even in Second Coming, Broly in regular SSJ form couldn't be harmed by Goten and Trunks and it's debatable whether Gohan was a SSJ2 in that movie, but even he couldn't harm Broly.

I fully believe that Broly is stronger than a SSJ2, Super Perfect Cell, and Fat Buu. I mean even Trunks was able to send Fat Buu flying with a kick to save Vegeta, but he couldn't do anything to Broly in his regular SSJ form.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #3: Who's Stronger Vegito or Gogeta?​

I'm back DBZ fans with another weekly topic. I know its only been a few days since my last post, however, I was late with that post. Technically, this is my third week. So after this post I'll be back on track. With this topic I'd like to discuss who's stronger between Vegito and Gogeta and why their attitudes are so different.

Quick note: I'm only discussing Gogeta from the movie Fusion Reborn. Not Gogeta from GT because technically the events of GT never happened.

First, let's discuss their attitudes. For those that don't know; Vegito and Gogeta are both fusions of Vegeta and Goku. Vegito is the end result of their fusion using the Portara Earrings given to them by the Kais. Gogeta is the end result of their fusion using the fusion dance technique. While both characters are fusions of the same 2 characters, they are as different from each other as Vegeta and Goku are from one another. Vegito is very cocky. He's the type that if he's stronger than his opponent he let's his opponent know it with some trash talk. Also, instead of just finishing off his opponent he'll toy around with them. So, to put it simply, he's more like Vegeta then he is Goku. Gogeta, on the other hand, is serious and to the point. He doesn't play around with his opponents or belittle them. Gogeta just simply takes care of business. So he's more like Goku then Vegeta. My theory is that Vegito is the fusion in which Vegeta is the dominant personality and Gogeta is the other way around.

Now onto who's stronger. This is going to be tough to determine because they're both very very powerful. Vegito was so powerful that he was effortlessly able to handle Super Buu after he had absorbed Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Ultimate Gohan. To put that into perspective, Super Buu was already stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan was even stronger than Super Buu. So imagine how strong Buu became after absorbing Ultimate Gohan and remember that Buu had already absorbed Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. Even after Buu added all of that power to his own, he was less than nothing compared to Vegito.

Gogeta was so powerful that he was able to kill Janemba in his most powerful form with ease. To put that in perspective; Janemba was way more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. IMO, Final Form Janemba is at least as strong as Super Buu and Gogeta was able to effortlessly destroy him.

So who's more powerful between Vegito and Gogeta? Well if we were to judge by the opposition they each faced, which is really the only way we can judge, then my answer would be Vegito. Even though Gogeta's opponent was way more powerful than all of the other Z Fighters, so was Vegito's. The difference, though, is that even before Vegito's opponent was at his most powerful, he was already stronger than everyone except Ultimate Gohan and then he added Gohan's power to his own and Vegito was still able to effortlessly beat him. I just don't think Janemba, Gogeta's opponent, was any where near as strong as Buuhan.

Neither Vegito nor Gogeta fought anywhere near their maximum power. They didn't have to. For all I know, Gogeta could've also handled Buuhan with ease. We'll just never know. However, since Vegito's opponent is stronger than Gogeta's, I'd have to say that Vegito is the stronger of the two.

What do you all think? Which one is the stronger fusion? Could Gogeta handle Buuhan? Which fusion do you prefer? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Барбоса]

The strength of the Potara earrings fusion being far more potent than the fusion dance is all we really have to go on in a Gogeta vs Vegito argument.

I tend to think that Vegito is significantly more powerful because of that.

Trying to measure Janemba against the various Buus is tricky. The only point of reference is SSJ3 being something of match for Majin, Super and Kid as well as Janemba. I think his dimension-warping abilities helped Janemba to a more comprehensive upper hand over Goku than power level legislated for.

 

[Bernkastel]

Vegito. The Potara earrings were blatantly stated in the manga canon to be much more potent than the fusion dance. Vegito was also stated to have received an additional power boost from the fact that Vegeta and Goku were rivals.

If you are trying to compare the power of the two with non canon material like the anime and video games, there's an animation in DB Heroes where Gogeta fights Base Super Buu as a SSJ2.

Spoiler

[youtube]iluvNWDWDBQ[/youtube]

In the same scene we see Base Vegito holding his own with an upgraded Majin Janemba. In the Fusion Reborn movie Gogeta immediately went SSJ to ensure a victory over a weaker version.

So pretty evident in either manga or anime/movie continuations that Vegito is stronger.

 

[lenguy]

Vegito. The Potara earrings were blatantly stated in the manga canon to be much more potent than the fusion dance. Vegito was also stated to have received an additional power boost from the fact that Vegeta and Goku were rivals.

This^. There is no disputing this blatant fact. While the Fusion Dance is powerful in its own right, the Potara fusion was stated to just flat out be superior. The whole Goku and Vegeta rivalry thing completing the fusion could probably also be applied to Gogeta as well though I would imagine. Still, it wouldn't matter because the Potara Fusion is just a superior way of fusing.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Edit: I made a mistake on Vegito's power level. It should read...

Vegito: 15,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 750,000,000
-(Super Saiyan 2): 1,500,000,000

For those that believe he wasn't a SSJ2 then...

Vegito: 30,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 1,500,000,000

For those that believe he was so powerful that he could've beaten Buu in his base form then...

Vegito: 1,500,000,000
-(Super Saiyan): 750,000,000,000

 

[Waverider]

IMHO Vagito. But to me the argument is mute due to the fact that people tend to make the comparisons from different canons. Not to add to the argument, bu it Dragon Ball GT: A Hero's Legacy it was mentioned that Vegito could be stronger than a Super Seyan 4.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

Does the Farmer's power level of 5 include the gun he's holding? If so, then I'd say it's accurate but otherwise I think that'd be a little generous for an obese farmer, especially if a talking turtle is only at 0.0001.

Also shouldn't Full Power Goku in the Vegeta/Saiyan Saga have a power level of over 8,000 because that's the original line, "It's Over 8,000!?!"? (Although that may be different in the manga, I'm not sure.)

& finally I think Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Games would be at 300,000,000 & Ultimate or Mystic Gohan in the Buu Saga would have an even higher power level than listed as well, more like 800,000,000 - 1,000,000,000.

Otherwise great thread! Will the OP or anyone else be posting a thread about Dragonball Super & their thoughts on the first 2 episodes so far? I'm curious what others think about it. Also I'd be curious to see what others think the powers levels of the Super Saiyan God form, Beerus, Whis, Golden Frieza & the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms are respectively.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

Well as for your theory...

My theory is that Vegito is the fusion in which Vegeta is the dominant personality and Gogeta is the other way around.

I've always thought the same exact thing & thought that was very much implied in the anime.

As for who's more powerful in terms of actual power levels, I'd say they're dead even because they're the same two people fused either way you put it. The earrings may be a superior way of fusing but I don't see how that makes one of the base forms stronger than the other. & If we are just talking about straight up Vegito vs. Gogeta & just throw all the power levels & canon out the door, then I'd say Gogeta would win simply because that's the more Goku heavy fusion & not only is Goku ultimately stronger but he is the protagonist & always comes back somehow to save the day with a spirit bomb (a tactic Vegito presumably wouldn't be able to do nearly as well as Gogeta since he is less Goku influenced).

But then again, I also like Gogeta a lot better. The fusion vest/sash combo is one of my favorite designs in the history of Dragon Ball & it always bugged me that they made a big deal about the earrings fusion lasting forever but then Goku & Vegeta separated a couple of episodes later while we we're stuck with Kibito Kai as a lasting impression of it's fusion. At least the 30 min. time limit rule for the fusion dance kind of made some sense & serviced the story at times.

P.S. - Also on a completely goofy & nostalgic side not, the fusion dance brings up instant childhood memories for me. My cousin & I used to practice the fusion dance while watching DBZ. Screaming "FEWWWWW-SHHIIINNNN-HHAAAAA", doing the silly side-step move with the arms, yelling at each other for the other ones power level not being perfectly in sync with our own & being convinced that was the only reason we weren't fusing together. Those were the days!

 

[Барбоса]

I don't get how anyone can say Gogeta was more Goku-dominant than Vegito as all the arguments are ambiguous.

Sure, Vegeta can be the arrogant time-waster, toying with his opponent, which is seen in Vegito but he is also a completely ruthless killer, something that Gogeta definitely embraces in his defeat of Janemba.

As for Goku, while he is frequently the ultimate victor, he is also a complete clown and at times has strange ideas on strategy - not fighting Pre-Perfect Cell, not giving his all against Majin Buu - and can be unwilling to kill - Vegeta, Ginyu Force, Frieza.

And again, you have to take into account the circumstances of the fights Gogeta and Vegito had. Gogeta was just out to destroy Janemba and undo all of the damage his creation had wrought.

Vegito was not trying to destroy Buu. He was looking for a way to save his sons and friends, meaning he was holding back and the seeming Vegeta-led arrogant toying (which could easily be Goku's clowning) was a joint decision.