BaconBits
WZ Czar of Steaks
If somebody is offended by the word ******, thinking it’s still a slur about a handicap, it says more about the offended than it does about the handicapped.
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version.
Steel Cage Forums: A Wrestling Forum That Won't Make You Sick And Kill You
- Thread starter Tastycles
- Start date
If somebody is offended by the word ******, thinking it’s still a slur about a handicap, it says more about the offended than it does about the handicapped.
BaconBits
WZ Czar of Steaks
This kind of stupid shit is why Trump is president.
I don't believe anyone said your name in this thread. You weren't mentioned at all, to the best I can see.
That's interesting. Let's see what you said to me in a PM:
So when I ask about any relationship to those at the main page, you are "a poster, not interested in political", but when it comes to discussing the issue in this thread, suddenly you're someone who does have a "long" history with them and are willing to present their "side".
Got it.
But it wasn't against the rules. As I told you. So don't pretend now as if your concern was for the rules I wrote, because clearly it was not.
And you were politely responded to.
Because you didn't get your way.
You also left out the part where you threatened my Administrator position. Here, I'll remind you:
For all intents and purposes, true, to the best of my knowledge (I have no idea what you wrote Crave).
So, it really makes a person wonder. You, on one hand, claim you are just a poster but on the other hand discuss your long history with WZ. You threaten my position as Administrator and suddenly, for the first time ever, WZ/Crave comes to the forums and, without any discussion with me or Yaz, make those changes.
So in all the years I've been on these forums, your complaint was the first and only to ever be addressed and it was addressed without ANY discussion before or after the fact. But you're just "a poster".
Ahh, so you received more correspondence than I did.
It should just go to show you how little Crave/WZ cares about the forums.
Which is why I created another forum. It wasn't anger, it wasn't spite or pettiness, it was just because it seems pretty clear Crave/WZ does not care much about these forums. It also reinforces the idea that the first time something is a little big messy, they won't bother with them.
Ahh, yes, innuendo at its finest. Accusing us of lying without actually using the words. Great tactic.
It really didn't bother me. At the end of the day, what the moderator posted was not against the rules. It is Crave/WZ's forum and they can do as they wish with it. If they want to ban 75% of the posters on here, they can. If they want to remove me as Administrator, they can. There's no use in being bothered by it, it's just a fact.
As I said, my creating a new forum is the completion of months of discussion. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision, it's been talked about for a very long time. With the completely unprofessional actions of Hausman, it convinced me of what I'd long kind of assumed, which is if this place ever becomes the slightest bit of a hassle, then the forum as we know it will no longer exist.
So that's why I created SC Forums.
Gosh, there's a shock.
It's so surprising the person who claims to be just "a poster" and yet is apparently the first person in history to get a response from WZ/Crave in the form of taking action without consulting any of the involved parties (because you were not one of the involved parties), who then turns around and claims a "long" history with WZ when it is convenient to do so....it is so surprising that person has a problem with our thinking.
Shocking, truly.
And yet, didn't care enough to actually ask that same admin for his "side" (as you mention later), nor consider that admin's time and personal money he had invested in the forum.
It is easy to say "Remove him", sign in and change a Usergroup. It's a little more work to actually receive information and make an informed decision. Guess which route Crave/WZ went?
History said they wouldn't...surprising how you're the first person to ever receive a response. Especially when Hausman wouldn't even discuss the issue with me at all before or after the event. But you...you got exactly what you wanted and threatened me with.
Well, thank God you're here to tell everyone how they have to talk in 2018. Apparently, words no longer have meanings. Thank you, Moses II.
Is that not exactly what we've been saying? They don't care about the forums, they don't care about the posters, they don't care about the "community" you so often talk about. They only care about what's easy for them. If the forum becomes just a little bit difficult, then bye-bye forum.
Thank you for saying exactly what we've been saying.
I seriously doubt they've given two thoughts about me since that day. I was an unpaid volunteer on one wrestling forum for a site which clearly is not high on their priority list.
If they've given me a second thought since that day, I'd be incredibly surprised.
And what is their detailed response? Is it your post? Are you acting as their representative?
Because your post here had very little to do with the interaction I had with Hausman, the lack of ANY communication before or after the situation, the fact this forum software is a decade old or, really, much to do with the new forum. Really, you just wanted to come in and spout a bunch of irrelevant things, despite the fact I never once mentioned you were the person who threw a fit when he didn't get his way.
So, do tell...what exactly was your goal with your post?
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
Can I speak my piece too? I feel like I can add to the conversation, but I don't want to cause anymore issues than I already have.
Ugh, the forum shrunk my images. Here are the links (or you can also right-click on them and view image):
https://slyfox696.com/wzimages/robtaylor1.jpg
https://slyfox696.com/wzimages/robtaylor2.jpg
https://slyfox696.com/wzimages/robtaylor1.jpg
https://slyfox696.com/wzimages/robtaylor2.jpg
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
Sly - do you really not believe that Yaz's post was flaming?
It did not meet the WZ Rules for flaming, no. If you look at the rules, it was not an "extreme" insult. I used the word "extreme" for a reason when I wrote the rules. I obviously don't have access to the particular forum any longer, but I suspect if you look in the forum where all of the Infractions for the forum are kept, you may not find 5 Flaming infractions in the last 5 years. A lot of people talk about, and WZ certainly has a reputation for, being a very strict forum. But, really, the Staff over the years have taken many steps to pull back on strictness, while still trying to keep a relatively decent posting environment.
As I told Rob Taylor in PM:
"I didn't say I was condoning it, I merely said I'm not taking Disciplinary action against it.
Please understand the enormous difference."
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
What about trolling, prejudiced remarks, or stirring up drama?
What about them? Nothing Yaz posted fell anywhere close to any of those categories. He certainly wasn't trolling and he wasn't the one creating any drama. He was just replying to someone whose opinions for which he had no regard.
As far as prejudiced remarks? As I have told several people in the past, ******ation is quite literally the slowing of progress or development and when applied to humans, it refers to those who cognitive abilities do not progress at a reasonably normal rate. If I call you that, because I feel your posts are lacking in logical or realistic thought, then I am actually using the word by its intended definition. The fact it has become a schoolyard taunt is irrelevant.
It's not like words people use to slander black people or Muslims. Those words exist solely as terms of prejudice and/or are not being used in their correct form.
So, no, Yaz's post did not violate any of the rules of the forum, as they were written and enforced for so many years.
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
I am a lot of things. I am an asshole. I am barely above a shit poster. I am basically a try hard. I had however built a reputation in my years as a competent member of the forums. I had five years in WZCW, including a two plus year stint as head of the entire fed. I volunteered to help run multiple tournaments and end of year awards. I never once had an infraction I gave out reversed. In my time, I had a nearly clean record. A single warning about two weeks after I joined. I had the cleanest disciplinary record on staff. I was a strong candidate for G-Mod when Killjoy was promoted to the position to replace JMT.
Yeah, I called a guy whose opinions I disagreed with fucking ******ed. I didn't just up and one day decide to pick a poster at random and call him out. I had started by disagreeing with his positions and opinions and done my best to back my stances with facts. He continually failed to grasp basic debating technique, as well as having a limited grasp on grammar and the English language. He continued to be a poor poster, a poster who received more votes than anyone else for Worst Poster of the Year in 2017. Rob Taylor, a man who had tried to convince mods more than once to change things to suit him, decided I was out of line and indirectly called me on my choice of words. A word he found so offensive, he couldn't even type it out. I responded that I had broken no rule, but invited him (and the poster I called the name) to speak with Sly.
I was not having them run to Sly because I knew Sly would back me on the basis that I was a mod and those two were not. I sent them to Sly 1) Because I have always been told to direct any complaints about mods to the admins and 2) Not long after I became mod, someone reported a post because someone else was called a ******. I checked through former infractions to see what the punishment for the word should be, but found no previous infractions for using the word. I asked Sly and he explained to me that that particular word was not against the rules, as it had a basis in medical terminology. He likened it to the word dumb. A word that was once an official medical term for mutes.
I wake up one morning, to find I have been removed from staff. I had zero say in the matter. A position I had dedicated multiple years to, as a volunteer in an effort to make WrestleZone a better place. Removed without so much a PM from anyone at Crave or the main page.
Sly is a much more reserved and polite man than I. He has done more for these forums in my time than anyone else. He may not boast about it, but trust me when I say this place would not exist without Sly's work.
Rob Taylor didn't like a rule in place, went to the admin, didn't get his way, so he decided to go above the admin and place his complaint there. I have no doubt had they have refuted his complaint, he would have kept looking for ways to get people to accept his way of thinking and change things to suit him. He got two people removed from staff, but is still not satisfied because those "bullies" have not apologized and possibly because we aren't bowing at the his feet and thanking him for making WrestleZone a safer place.
Kick me off staff, I mean nothing to this place, but Sly deserved better than how Crave and Hausman treated him. Since this has happened, they have had no other hand in the forums, showing how much they truly care. They simply heard someone pitch a fit, someone who used to work on the main page mind you, and likely took his side without looking at facts or getting all sides of the story. It was reactionary, it was senseless, and above it it was...well it was a word that is now against the rules, except no one has come in to change the rules, which should be all you need to know Crave doesn't give a squirt of piss about what goes on here. If WrestleZone Forums burn to the ground, there are two people you can thank, one a self righteous snowflake, the other an absent liar.
Yeah, I called a guy whose opinions I disagreed with fucking ******ed. I didn't just up and one day decide to pick a poster at random and call him out. I had started by disagreeing with his positions and opinions and done my best to back my stances with facts. He continually failed to grasp basic debating technique, as well as having a limited grasp on grammar and the English language. He continued to be a poor poster, a poster who received more votes than anyone else for Worst Poster of the Year in 2017. Rob Taylor, a man who had tried to convince mods more than once to change things to suit him, decided I was out of line and indirectly called me on my choice of words. A word he found so offensive, he couldn't even type it out. I responded that I had broken no rule, but invited him (and the poster I called the name) to speak with Sly.
I was not having them run to Sly because I knew Sly would back me on the basis that I was a mod and those two were not. I sent them to Sly 1) Because I have always been told to direct any complaints about mods to the admins and 2) Not long after I became mod, someone reported a post because someone else was called a ******. I checked through former infractions to see what the punishment for the word should be, but found no previous infractions for using the word. I asked Sly and he explained to me that that particular word was not against the rules, as it had a basis in medical terminology. He likened it to the word dumb. A word that was once an official medical term for mutes.
I wake up one morning, to find I have been removed from staff. I had zero say in the matter. A position I had dedicated multiple years to, as a volunteer in an effort to make WrestleZone a better place. Removed without so much a PM from anyone at Crave or the main page.
Sly is a much more reserved and polite man than I. He has done more for these forums in my time than anyone else. He may not boast about it, but trust me when I say this place would not exist without Sly's work.
Rob Taylor didn't like a rule in place, went to the admin, didn't get his way, so he decided to go above the admin and place his complaint there. I have no doubt had they have refuted his complaint, he would have kept looking for ways to get people to accept his way of thinking and change things to suit him. He got two people removed from staff, but is still not satisfied because those "bullies" have not apologized and possibly because we aren't bowing at the his feet and thanking him for making WrestleZone a safer place.
Kick me off staff, I mean nothing to this place, but Sly deserved better than how Crave and Hausman treated him. Since this has happened, they have had no other hand in the forums, showing how much they truly care. They simply heard someone pitch a fit, someone who used to work on the main page mind you, and likely took his side without looking at facts or getting all sides of the story. It was reactionary, it was senseless, and above it it was...well it was a word that is now against the rules, except no one has come in to change the rules, which should be all you need to know Crave doesn't give a squirt of piss about what goes on here. If WrestleZone Forums burn to the ground, there are two people you can thank, one a self righteous snowflake, the other an absent liar.
I must speak about you here.
You aren't a beep hole by any measure. What I know about is that you are a fun loving guy. But you speak whatever you feel on face itself. You can't fake it. You can't hide what you feel. If someone's wrong, you call him wrong. That's a quality too rare to find nowadays. Also, if you start calling yourself beephole, it won't make you one. Just like it couldn't make Franku one. (Remember the consequences, Franku!)
Also, I don't favour when we use words like ******ed. But I don't think that saying a word should've nullified the efforts put by both Slyfox and Rainbow for WrestleZone Forums. That too free of cost. Heck, instead of taking such a harsh decision, they could have taken feedback from other members as well about both of them. Why just listen to one side of coin? Why not the other?
Dan Severn's Moustache
Patent Pending
The world needs more people like ShinChan.
In all honesty, I get why certain words might upset some people. I used to be overly self-conscious about people calling each other autistic. Not because I am autistic, but because I have several very close friends on the spectrum, and I was once upon a time overly self-conscious about the possibility I might have some kind of ASD (to the point I actually went to a screening, and found out what I had was closer to ADHD).
When it comes to calling people things like ******ed, autistic, brain damaged and the like, I operate on a weird rule. The moment I find out whoever I'm insulting suffers from these mental conditions, I don't blame them for it, and I stop. "Sperging out" is a phrase I use when someone acts like a complete child when I expect far better from them, but if they do suffer from a legitimate mental health condition, I stop, because that's where an edgy joke goes into outright bullying for me if they can't help it.
Do I expect people to adhere to my standards? Kind of. If someone is actively bullying another person for their mental disability, I'll stick up for that person. But I'm not going to police people every time they want to use a certain word. Yaz wants to call something ******ed whether or not I agree with him? I don't care, that's his prerogative. But was Yaz acting with particular malice of intent? Far from it.
In all honesty, I get why certain words might upset some people. I used to be overly self-conscious about people calling each other autistic. Not because I am autistic, but because I have several very close friends on the spectrum, and I was once upon a time overly self-conscious about the possibility I might have some kind of ASD (to the point I actually went to a screening, and found out what I had was closer to ADHD).
When it comes to calling people things like ******ed, autistic, brain damaged and the like, I operate on a weird rule. The moment I find out whoever I'm insulting suffers from these mental conditions, I don't blame them for it, and I stop. "Sperging out" is a phrase I use when someone acts like a complete child when I expect far better from them, but if they do suffer from a legitimate mental health condition, I stop, because that's where an edgy joke goes into outright bullying for me if they can't help it.
Do I expect people to adhere to my standards? Kind of. If someone is actively bullying another person for their mental disability, I'll stick up for that person. But I'm not going to police people every time they want to use a certain word. Yaz wants to call something ******ed whether or not I agree with him? I don't care, that's his prerogative. But was Yaz acting with particular malice of intent? Far from it.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
If the man Yaz was talking to was the one to make the complaint things may be different. Rob Taylor had no dog on the fight and got involved anyway
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
Exactly. I didn't know that women that I watched get raped, it's not my business.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
There's a huge differemce between watching somepne get raped and a 3rd party being upset about the word ****** when he's not even a part of the conversation.
You're not stupid so stop acting like it
Oh God fucking dammit, Milenko. Rape? Really?
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
Am i the one who first mentioned it? No i am not so this outrage makes no sense
Hard Hit Prince
Not really working as a
It depends on the situation really. If it's a group of friends, it's banter. It's acceptable. If it's a group of friends saying that in a presence of a literal ******, I'll be upset. If it's a group of kids, I'll say something. If it's adults, specially bigger than me, I'll be silently upset and an hypocrite thinking: "what a bunch of ******s".
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
Says guy getting upset and trying to stand up for others because someone else got upset and reported it to their superiors. Irony.
No.
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
and here we come to the crux of the issue... "My place, my rules..." and the implication that whatever YOUR opinion is, is worth more than anyone elses... it may fly in the new forum until this issue rears its head again (not through me, I won't be joining) when you or someone else goes too far and its not dealt with.
Mocking disability IS like mocking race...or sexual preference... and is equally protected against in law as the other two. You might feel justified using such language but you are not protected to do so, just as you are not uttering or writing a racial or homophobic slur, those who do so run a risk of complaint which can quickly escalate.
If you disagree with that, it is you who needs to change/will fall foul of that. Is it SO hard to just tell someone they're wrong without mocking their mental faculties or even better put forth an argument rather than insults or questioning their mental function... That's not your role...
Even now GSB is questioning your interpretation of your own rules... that in itself proves that there was grounds for the complaint and a tightening of the rules. It wouldn't have taken much for this to have been handled much differently...but throughout it's "what Slyfox says goes" rather than meeting even in the middle. We are where we are now...as much through your own and Yaz's fault as my own for making a report.
Yes I disagreed with you and advised I would go higher, not out of spite but because you were wrong and your interpretation of the online world is wrong. There are no "dark little corners" of the internet or little fiefdoms anymore where bullying behavior is OK... if you own a site and it happens, and someone reports/sues, then it's your ass and reputation on the line. Crave/WZ clearly didn't think your services were worth that risk... again, meeting half way would have perhaps mitigated that. Be careful as an owner, it means the buck stops with you if someone goes too far... it's you, not Crave or WZ who gets sued/reported.
I don't have "more info" than you in the slightest... all I know is I asked how Yaz's behaviour and your response fitted with their brand and they responded with actions... they clearly saw it as breaching your rules, even if you didn't.
So FFS move on... stop mentioning me in coded little posts and guys stop posting "******" for the sake of it.
If you want to take every member from here and sink the place then you will anyway... but stop making out I'm to blame here or had an agenda...
If Yaz had some common sense and a little less ego, and you'd shown a little more co-operation it would never have happened... but it was more important for you both to be "right", than the situation to be resolved properly... Now you can be right all you like in your new forums...but rest assured you are very wrong to think the behavior that led to this was OK.
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
That person DID complain and felt ignored... to the point I took things on and they thanked me for doing so... I note even since the removal, no apology was made to them.
I work with people who have disabilities... I've seen first hand the hurt and pain that is caused by a casual drop of the word. The disrespect that goes into it, whether intended or not is very real EVERY time it is used... there is no casual racism, just racism... there is no casual homophobia, just homophobia and there is no casual disability discrimination, just disability discrimination... it is NEVER harmless and the sooner people start to realise that and stop hiding behind words like "banter" the sooner everyone of the above is stopped.
