So lots of hate for Orton and Cena these days. Why?

[AngryCenaFan]

Generally boring, they can't make themselves look strong while losing, in order for them to get over they have to win, atleast that's what WWE thinks, HMM and they wonder why they can't make any new stars.

 

[blkshp]

Um, I don't know where the IWC gets this stuff from, but one guy technically can't bury another guy in the ring IF THE MATCH IS BOOKED THAT WAY. You can't blame Orton for doing what Vince and the writers tell him to do. He can't bury CM Punk because Punk is a 3 time world heavy weight champ, do you really think Punk's going back to where he was a few years ago because he lost to Orton? I mean c'mon people! The New Nexus looks weak because the Nexus angle ran its course and its time to end it. Not because of Orton. I think like some ppl who posted on here said, many in the IWC just want to bitch, bitch, bitch. I bet if the main event of summerslam was Ryder vs. Bourne vs. Ziggler, then the IWC would turn on them too and call them overrated and boring.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

I think there are multiple reasons why people hate on John Cena and Randy Orton, especially after both of them won World titles in the past week. The people that hate on them are generally the older men and the IWC. Often those groups are made up of the same people, so we can pretty much smash them together for the sake of this discussion.

1.) Some of the fans that hate on them do so because they have been wrestling fans for a long time. These are the true WRESTLING fans that want to see matches like Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels or Rey Mysterio vs. Sin Cara. They love the lucha style and the technical experience that was thrown into the product in the 90s to shake things up (the product was about entertainment in the 80s just as it is today). They boo Cena and Orton because they are sick of seeing the same matches with everybody they face off against. John Cena's five moves of destruction (now taking applications for a sixth move) and Randy Orton's DDT/Angle Slam/fist pound/backbreaker/RKO combo are getting old. These are the fans that love wrestling and dont' care as much about entertainment.

2.) Now, there are also a lot of fans that boo Cena because it's what they SHOULD do. Somehow (if you read Undisputed, Jericho claims to have started the trend) Cena's character established this 'boo the face, cheer the heel' thing that hasn't gone away. It divided the Universe into older men who hate Cena and kids and women who love him. Now that Orton is being used in the same manor, the same crowd is starting to get on his back. I don't think we'll ever see the same "Let's go Orton, Orton sucks" chants that we do for Cena, but it all depends on what route the WWE goes with now that Orton is on Smackdown. These boo-ers are the bandwagon fans that boo Cena and bash him on forums because they are supposed to. They fit a demographic and god forbid they go against the grain.

In my opinion, Randy Orton is a much more edgy and interesting character that John Cena. He's still sorta fresh and has many feuds left that I'm excited to see. However, he isn't even in Cena's league when it comes to cutting promos and working on the spot with guys in the ring. Cena doesn't job 90% of a match because he can't wrestle. A lot of it is that nobody on the roster really knows how to "wrestle" any more. There is a formula, and they are stuck in it. Wrestling has come full circle and found itself back in the 80s. The WWE will refocus thing more on entertainment and drawing mainstream attention, ratings will go up, and the entire process will be streamlined. This is exactly what happened in the 80s when they gave the ball to Hulk Hogan and told him to run with it. Eventually, real WRESTLERS will rise up and another company may challenge the WWE. We're starting to see the rise of independent promotions and even some territories immersing. I don't think wrestling will ever return to the way it was in the 90s, but I think very soon lines will be re-drawn between wrestling and sports entertainment, and the fans will gravitate to where they want to go. There will be a lot less heat on Cena, and the people that were booing Cena will be watching guys like Robert Roode, Daniel Bryan, and Eddie Edward bring down the house.

This is all wishful thinking, but if wrestling continues on in a pattern that most things do...it will happen eventually. John Cena and Randy Orton may be a thing of the past by the time companies like Ring of Honor hit a huge patch of success, but it will happen eventually. WWF used to be the only thing in sports entertainment, and because of it the territories died and ECW and WCW rose up. We're in the middle of another sports entertainment phase. Give it ten years and I think you'll see a whole new landscape in professional wrestling. One that I'm sure Triple H will be looking over like a king on his throne.

 

[itssoeasy123]

Why? I honestly have no clue.

We just had a 5 month reign with The Miz as Champion. A young talentd superstar who has a long career ahead of him and it's definitely he'll have more reign's as a World Champion in the future. While that was happening Cena wasn't Champion for 10 month's! No, he was not injured or shooting a movie, he was there and not even in the Title picture.

So the guy finally win's it back and it's the terrible. Of course, he has many great potential fueds with the continuing one with The Miz, Alberto Dle Rio, Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk (if they want to do it again.) They can also use Swagger and possibly McIntrye if they wanted to. Or a respect fued between Cena and Mysterio. Or a fued with R-Truth. There's so many people Cena can fued with for the WWE Championship at the moment.

 

[whoopin' ass]

it isn't a case of cena or orton being the problem - it is vince protecting/pushing certian people even when the fans are bored with them. think back a few years and people were complaining about triple h the same way even though he earned his spot. if lesnar was still there, we would be hearing this complain about him and some other guy (not neccessarily orton or cena). the "anything can happen" feeling is gone and you know that these 2 are going to be the main guys for a long time regardless of who comes along. jericho can come back, still going to be second fiddle; miz may become champ again, still second fiddle; alberto del rio can win the wwe title, still second fiddle. unless the get a real breakout star who the fans really get behind so that wwe/vince can't ignore them(and not a manufactured one like cena), things won't change for a few years.

 

[Pieman]

We're sick of seeing them, plain and simple. It's like pizza. Pizza is good. But when you eat too much pizza, you eventually get sick of it. Cena and Orton are both 9 year old pizza.

 

[RD_21]

Why? I honestly have no clue.

We just had a 5 month reign with The Miz as Champion. A young talentd superstar who has a long career ahead of him and it's definitely he'll have more reign's as a World Champion in the future. While that was happening Cena wasn't Champion for 10 month's! No, he was not injured or shooting a movie, he was there and not even in the Title picture.

So the guy finally win's it back and it's the terrible. Of course, he has many great potential fueds with the continuing one with The Miz, Alberto Dle Rio, Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk (if they want to do it again.) They can also use Swagger and possibly McIntrye if they wanted to. Or a respect fued between Cena and Mysterio. Or a fued with R-Truth. There's so many people Cena can fued with for the WWE Championship at the moment.

To me Cena is like the Ferrari or the Detroit Red Wings or wrestling. I don't care how many time he is away from the title when he get it back it's like damn Cena is getting the title again. To be honest and to go against my (and I know it is) flawed logic Cena didn't even go away when he was fired. If Cena leave for 6 months (so I can stop praying that he gets injured) and then come back, win the rumble and the title it will feel fresh, but the truth is that even when Cena is not in the title picture he is still at the fore front and I can't stand him anymore.

I wouldn't even bother to boo the guy because the WWE likes it, wants it and laugh at it. I just flip the channel I can't stand his acting, serious tone then yelling catch phrase about never giving up and making bad jokes (okay he sometime makes good to geat one). I know I am biased but I just can't appreciate him anymore at all he was stale 2 years ago, imagine now.

But I think the main reason they are getting so much heat is because of the endorsement they get from Vince and the staff, you know that wheter you and everyone else like them or not they are there to stay (same for people who hate the Miz, personally I like him and it's not a I love heel and hate face kind of thing). The fact that their match while still good most of the time are predictable because you know that they will not lose or at least not clean, they can almost never give a rub because in McMahaon's mind a face can't lose clean EVER or he will be finish (Main event), TNA called Vince and they would like to show you how much Kurt's reputation is destroyed now that he's lost 50 times to Jarrett, Kurt is still a threat (ok Kurt is not losing clean most of the time but you are still getting the point).

A face can and should lose sometimes that's how you build opponents and stars, otherwise you have HHH (I know he was a heel but stay with me a little) who was alone at the top because he had destroyed every face of the company, they had to give him RVD who was the last bastion and even he failed. HHH had no credible opponent after that.

Anyway that's my thoughts.

 

[RD_21]

The IWC just doesn't know what they want. i mean they ask for something and when they get it they find something to complain about. They ask for the Rock and they get him. Then a few weeks later they start calling him boring. They were all get wet over Orton turning face saying he's the greatest but not he's boring and mono tone. HE'S BEEN DOING THE SAME THING HE DID SINCE 2008 SO THE IWC JUST NEEDS TO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND WATCH WRESTLING OR IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT THEN TURN THE FUCKING CHANNEL. ITS THAT SIMPLE BITCHES. I FUCKING HATE SPOILED LITTLE BITCHES AND THATS EXACTLY HOW YALL ARE ACTING.

Like many you are missing an important point, the IWC is not a person, it's not one persone it's thousands upon thousands of person. I wanted The Rock to return and I still enjoy it. But the people who are still butt hurted that The Rock left may say he is boring and some people probably never even liked him to begins with.

A part of the IWC will want Orton face and some want him heel just like I can't stop saying I want Cena to turn heel and half of the people on this board are saying I am dumb while the other half may agree with me.

What I mean is that when you want to make an argument like that it only works if the people who were asking for something are now complainning about it, but in the big group labeled as IWC half the people wants one thing and the other half wants another.

 

[darbare]

Plain and simple the Internet is stupid and doesnt know what they want. I remember about 2 years ago when Orton had Legacy. He was booked as the most cowardly champion you could get. Always had Cody and Ted helping him, and then losing on his own to Batista, Triple H and Cena. People complained that WWE never books him strong, and that they were mistreating him. Now all of a sudden he's a face, who are usually booked to win, and they hate him. I agree with WWE on this one, in that the fans dont know what they want. So just shut up and enjoy it or change the channel. Threaten to leave the product, they dont really care because they lose fans everyday and gain new ones everyday. The party hurt in this scenario is you because you have to find something else to watch. I guarantee it, once Cena turns heel, there will be something to complain about. No matter what there will always be something to complain about. You want Cena heel, kids dont. If he turns heel, they will complain. It all doesnt matter, just watch it.

 

[Attitude Era Junkie]

It was a big mistake to take the belt away from Christian already (it was refreshing to see him as the champ) and it was maybe an even bigger mistake to give Cena the WWE title belt already. What's the hurry guys??? WrestleMania is almost a full year away!! Half of your fans hate Cena so they will get really fuckin' bored seeing him as the champ for a fuckin' year! Most likely Cena will have that belt until WrestleMania comes around which means we will already know that he will win his PPV title matches.

They could have kept this Miz/Cena feud going on longer with Miz having the belt or give the belt to someone else. Cena has already been the WWE champ for an entire year in the past and again for nearly another year. Do we really need to see him as the champ for this long again? If Cena was actually entertaining then I probally wouldn't mind. He''s an interesting person....that's about it. He's hardly ever funny in his promos and his matches are always the same. He gets his ass kicked for 5 minutes then heroicly comes back, powers out of a hold, does some flying shoulder blocks, spinebuster, 5 knuckle shuffle then the Attitude Adjustment. Sorry guys but I find him to be boring.

 

[khrissr10]

I think most people complain about the "Winning", "Title" and "SuperHuman" Streak that Cena has now. Let's face the "FACT" that Cena lacks "WRESTLING Skills" and "MIC Skills" but still Vince always choose him to be the face of his company because kids and women don't care about the skills unlike real men who looks for a total package. As long as WWE and VKM can make money out of Cena he will always be the face of the WWE and the worst part they will force you to swallow him.

As for Orton, I don't like him from the very beginning until now for a simple reason "he is not good at all"

 

[TimAH]

The problem with both these guys is no matter whether they are in the title picture or not they are booked as clearly more dominant than whoever has the title. Therefore you know its just a matter of time before one of them decides to be champion again, because you know the champion is no match for either.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Even though Triple H has barely been on screen for months, I believe his replacement has emerged (as in, someone who has taken over "burying talent")and has become the new locker-room politician. That man's name is- RANDY ORTON!

I started to notice the first signs of it last year.I remember reading an interview with Randy Orton in a mag called "Power Slam", where Randy Orton
raved about his Legacy team-mates, Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes. He said that they were superstars of the future and that they may surpass what he achieves in his career.

Okay, if Randy Orton meant that, then why did he proceed to bury DiBiase and Rhodes at every opportunity? When Legacy turned on Orton, instead of having the storyline be that they ambush Orton, beat him down, have him go to hospital, and then Orton becomes a sympathetic face and gets revenge, he often beat down both men in most two-on-one beatdowns easily leading up to WM26, and then beat them easily in a Triple-Threat Match on the big show.

I agree with Orton. For mine, both DiBiase and Rhodes had all the gifts to be WWE or World Champion. But now they are in the mid-card, and never looking like freshening up the main-event. Only recently had Cody possibly delivered some hope that his new persona will take him to the top. DiBiase is still jobbing.

So, instead of Orton putting over two guys he claimed to admire, he made them look second-rate every week of this feud.

He has done it recently as well. Both of his losses on PPV to Miz were screwy, hurting Miz as a champion. Orton beat C.M. Punk both times on PPV, clean, and also on Raw. I don't remember Punk beating Orton clean during their feud. Now, he politics to have the belt put on him, and not even allow Christian to carry it to "Over The Edge", when he can beat him for it then. Can't he even have anyone have a moment in the sun?

The funny thing is, John Cena is bagged constantly for his "Superman" act, but why isn't Orton? Tell me the last time Orton was made to look beaten down in the last year, by someone other than John Cena?

Is it that Orton is considered "cool" by the fans, he can be forgiven for his heroics?

I actually don't even know why he has such stroke. He has been disciplined many times, is a bully backstage, and has been suspended more than once over the "Wellness Policy".

Orton used to be one of my favourites. I loved his series against Cena (though we had seen it before), because, especially in the "I Quit" (Breaking Point 2010) and "Ironman" Match (Bragging Rights 2010), Orton showed malice and evil intentions. Randy Orton was born to be a heel. The swagger, the cold eyes, the expressionless face. Every tick and mannerism oozes wickedness, so I believed that he wanted to injure or even kill Cena during that feud. He played it well being psychotic.

But then he was turned face, because the stupid fans cheer him, and now I don't like him. Orton doesn't even try to play the face, though. Either he is a bad actor (which may be true, as he is the only major WWE player to not have done a movie), or he isn't trying to play a face. He stinks as a "Stone Cold" wannabe, and all that is happening is that he is making his opponents less menacing by comparison. I mean, would you believe in a heel, who can be easily beaten and kicked in the head afterwards by a supposed face?

I say that Randy Orton needs to give a bit more, and build opponents in the future. Otherwise, he may be stuck fighting Cena for the 500th time, and if he stays face, that will be a really boring prospect.

 

[Sheamus' Suntan]

I'm honestly quite sick of seeing threads that bash Orton and the face turn. Which is basically what this is...again.

Basically the crowd turned Orton. The idea was NEVER for Orton to get over as face; Wrestlemania came up and because Ted and Cody at the time LACKED the charisma to be the faces, the crowd turned Orton instead. Taking out the "Bad guy" that punts people in the head...that's a crowd pleasing thing but the whole crowd loved Orton more at the time. He just kept the pops from WM.

As for burying Ted and Cody. You're vince in this situation. Do you let two guys who QUITE FRANKLY DON'T have the charisma to pull off a win against one of your biggest stars ON THE BIGGEST STAGE in WWE or do you put over the guy who recently got rubbed into facedom because the other two failed at pulling off face?

Well...I'd put Orton over. Putting Orton over the two stooges at the time was right.
Ted's depush recently was not because of Orton though, it was because of Ted.

The moment the angle finished, Ted got given a fantastic gimmick. Something that SHOULD have worked. But he was dry and boring and stale. He has in ring ability but lacks emotion and connectivity with the crowd and to be honest no-one knows what to make of him anymore so he doesn't get reaction like anyone else does really.

Cody's current push is because of Cody. Recently? You're kidding me RIGHT? He's been "Dashing" for almost a year now, starting off with Drew Mac in a huge angle for the tag titles. He worked over, got heat for it and then recently with his deranged cody rhodes gimmick...he's been better than ever. Cody has PROVEN Randy Orton right.


The whole game of wrestling is politics and working hard.
The Miz politics by doing what Cena does - working incredibly hard.
Orton politics by giving a rub to others.

Okay. Orton and Punk should have had a moment where Punk went over. Not cleanly...via countout or something or via nexus, but that didn't happen. Perhaps that was because for the past few months Punk has been playing devils advocate with his own contract and WWE don't know what to do with him?

How bad does it look if Punk DOESN'T re-sign with the company after they put him over the #2 face of the company?


Orton's superman act HAS been noticed. The IWC is battling against it. Every other thread on here is a thread of "I hate Orton, he's Cena #2" blah blah blah. I personally LOVE his in ring thing, the "switching into a higher gear", the in effect near hulk up that he does. It's over, it's huge, the crowd adore him for it when theyre in a show because they know that it's all about to kick off.

His psychology is absolutely on point.
He rarely makes mistakes in ring.

He's made up for his personal douchbaggery. Remember, he was only 22 when he first signed with WWE. It went to his head, it felt like he actually BELIEVED he was the best thing in the company. He believed he was destined to be something huge and something great and he then started acting like a dick. He got suspended and repromanded for it and then hey, look, he reforms.

Stop judging the guy on 2002's standards.
Judge him on today's.

He's a GREAT talent. Brilliant at psychology and his expressions are absolutely on point every time. He sells perfectly every single time. YES, he's like Cena #2 and that's his biggest fault but right now he's doing what the company needs him to do and that's generate business like no other (except cena.)

 

[StoneColdCena6]

Samuel Hessingstock I applaud you - you summed up all of my feelings to.

The original post is JUST ANOTHER BASH AT ORTON.
1. Orton beat Punk multiple times blah, blah, blah.
2. Miz never beat Orton clean blah, blah, blah.
3. Orton is unstoppable blah, blah, blah.
4. He doesn't deserve the WHC blah, blah, blah.

1. Punk beat down and got the better of Orton twice in thier feud - remember the bus incident? Ok Orton dropped RKOs left, right and centre on the Nexus and he beat punk 3 times but that's because VKM wants to show how dominant Orton is. Simple as.

2. Miz never beat Orton clean - just like he never beat King or Cena clean - because they wanted Miz to be a beatable Champ, who had to cheat to win.

3. Orton has been unstoppable because they wanted to build him up so that he could lead a brand as a top face. I believe he was always going to SD as top face regardless of Edge retiring. I believe in the long run it's to see if Orton could carry Raw or The Company in the event of a heel turn.

4. It was VKM who wanted the title on Orton - it says so in the WZ Exclussives. That is therefore why he is the WHC.

Orton will keep the strap for a good amount of time and I personally think he deserves it for the amount of work he's put
In since WM26.

He deserves his title run last year, until he put The Miz over. Orton was most peoples favourite star last year until he won the belt, because it seems uncool to like The Champ.

So what if he RKOs people out of no where, Stone Cold stunned people out of no where and people ate it up... An NO I am NOT comparing Orton to SCSA as they are completely different.

An before anyone bashes my analysis on why Orton deserved his title in 2010 please think of it from the point of view that you are un biased towards any wrestler and that you believe wrestling is real. Therefore believing the wrestler winning the most matches deserves the strap.

Long may Orton reign as WHC.

 

[Iversen]

People seem to forget how young Orton is. Compared to a lot of guys on the roster anyway. Now I know wrestling works on the basis of guys putting guys over but Ortons going to be on top for years it's that simple. Having him lose on a regular basis to everyone he faces makes no sense.

The other thing is how the hell do you know it's got anything to do with Orton? Were you sat in on creative meetings and have seen Orton demand to go over? This is the same Orton that gave away the chance to end the streak a few years back... I know he doesn't have the best reputation backstage but do you know who you hear that from? People who have been sacked usually. Believe it or not they're bitter it's the way the world works. It's easy to blame the top dog. To just assume everything is down to him is just you looking for an excuse to bash him.

 

[WolfNyte]

Sam ...Stone good call..

Mr. Henderson lets break it down.

The Issue with Cody and Ted is when they would come out they would suffer from Cricket syndrome aka NO REACTION. Cody has changed that and his new character is awsome. Ted not so much still Boring he had the Million Dollar Son gimic and blew it even Virgil couldnt get him over.

Ok let me explain somthing for more years than I have been alive and I am 42 yearrs old HEELS CHEAT. Its very simple if you are a heel you cheat to win you do underhanded stuff to win. That is what a heel does. Nothing more be need said.

That whole superman BS pisses me off but not how it does most. The Superman thing has been around as long as Heels cheating. people bash Cena and Orton for it yet WORSHIP Hogan, Shawn Michales and Rock for it. You cant have it both ways.

As for Orton his character has NOT CHANGED from his Heel Persona to his Face Persona. Its just the FANS in the STANDS who PAY for shows LOVE IT. They Love the Anti Hero and have sine the Attitude Era..and even in the 80's you have The Rowdy One Rowdy Roddy Piper in the attitude Era you had Stone Cold now you have Orton. If someone can do it they they are gold. Of course the Biggest and second biggest Cheered Heels were:

Number One - The Four Horsemen the GREATEST Heel stable of ALL TIME
Number Two - NWO with Nash,Hall and Hogan...it died after bringing people in and out all the time

Now as for Christian...I do like the Creepy Little Bastard as Stone Cold used to call him. But he is not able to carry a show BUT I would love to see a Long fued with RO and CLB. Who knows what the E has planned you and I dont sit in on the meetings so we dont know.

Oh Yea and Orton just finished a film that is about bullying and I have heard it is very good and some schools are already talking about showing it to students.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I'm honestly quite sick of seeing threads that bash Orton and the face turn. Which is basically what this is...again.



As for burying Ted and Cody. You're vince in this situation. Do you let two guys who QUITE FRANKLY DON'T have the charisma to pull off a win against one of your biggest stars ON THE BIGGEST STAGE in WWE or do you put over the guy who recently got rubbed into facedom because the other two failed at pulling off face?

Well...I'd put Orton over. Putting Orton over the two stooges at the time was right.
Ted's depush recently was not because of Orton though, it was because of Ted.

The moment the angle finished, Ted got given a fantastic gimmick. Something that SHOULD have worked. But he was dry and boring and stale. He has in ring ability but lacks emotion and connectivity with the crowd and to be honest no-one knows what to make of him anymore so he doesn't get reaction like anyone else does really.

Cody's current push is because of Cody. Recently? You're kidding me RIGHT? He's been "Dashing" for almost a year now, starting off with Drew Mac in a huge angle for the tag titles. He worked over, got heat for it and then recently with his deranged cody rhodes gimmick...he's been better than ever. Cody has PROVEN Randy Orton right.


The whole game of wrestling is politics and working hard.
The Miz politics by doing what Cena does - working incredibly hard.
Orton politics by giving a rub to others.

Okay. Orton and Punk should have had a moment where Punk went over. Not cleanly...via countout or something or via nexus, but that didn't happen. Perhaps that was because for the past few months Punk has been playing devils advocate with his own contract and WWE don't know what to do with him?

How bad does it look if Punk DOESN'T re-sign with the company after they put him over the #2 face of the company?


Orton's superman act HAS been noticed. The IWC is battling against it. Every other thread on here is a thread of "I hate Orton, he's Cena #2" blah blah blah. I personally LOVE his in ring thing, the "switching into a higher gear", the in effect near hulk up that he does. It's over, it's huge, the crowd adore him for it when theyre in a show because they know that it's all about to kick off.

His psychology is absolutely on point.
He rarely makes mistakes in ring.

He's made up for his personal douchbaggery. Remember, he was only 22 when he first signed with WWE. It went to his head, it felt like he actually BELIEVED he was the best thing in the company. He believed he was destined to be something huge and something great and he then started acting like a dick. He got suspended and repromanded for it and then hey, look, he reforms.

Stop judging the guyds.
Judge him on today's.

He's a GREAT talent. Brilliant at psychology and his expressions are absolutely on point every time. He sells perfectly every single time. YES, he's like Cena #2 and that's his biggest fault but right now he's doing what the company needs him to do and that's generate business like no other (except cena.)[/ on 2002's standarQUOTE]

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1) What has charisma got to do with it? Why is it today that all that matters is how someone is on the mike? It is not World Talking Federation. Who cares if DiBiase or Rhodes are great on the stick? Kane was most popular when he was masked and never spoke, Chris Benoit (despite his crimes) was accepted a schampion, despite not being great on the mike. Even the Undertaker rarely speaks these days, yet is hugely over. Mr Kennedy often spoke on the mike, yet sucked in the ring. What's more important?

If you don't like or respect Ted DiBiase or Cody Rhodes, just say so. Don't b.s. about the need to be the next Rock to be a champion, though.

Do you like Orton's slow, montone voice? Yeah, that's real charismatic, isn't it?

I ask you, when has Orton ever, EVER, said one humourous thing on the mike? Chris Jericho, Edge and the Rock could often bring a laugh on the mike. Even "Stone Cold" had some humourous lines. But I have never seen Orton smile, laugh or show much personality at all. But if that turns your wheels, so be it.

Also, of course Orton should have finally emerged the winner. Why not at least put DiBiase and Rhodes over on "Raw", or at least take the beating and act like someone who is outnumbered? If DiBiase and Rhodes got the rub, and then failed, at least they were given a chance to succeed. Maybe neither man would have carried the ball, but it wasn't even given to them.

2) Cody has climbed the ladder because of Cody (and Rey Mysterio, too). Cody's current persona is making him a heel to watch, and it seems having his looks mangled has made him a more interesting character. I give Orton no credit for this, because Orton wasn't even on "Smackdown" when Cody unveiled his new look. It had more to do with Cody's performances at WM27 and "Extreme Rules". So, Orton was right about his potential, but he was wrong to bury him.

3) On Punk. Maybe Punk would be more willing to sign if he was given some victories, and not buried. If you want to keep a talent, you try to make them happy, not piss on him.

Punk is actually very valuable to WWE. I heard that part of why he was given the title, was because his straight-edge lifestyle made him a good role-model for the mainstream. It would be harder for WWE to be criticised for drug-use if its champion has got to the top drug-free. So, Vince needs to remember that about Punk, as well as him being an outstanding talent, and an alternative in main-events to Cena or Orton. Punk has the talent to be the top heel in WWE, and he even has your favourite quality, good stickwork. Having Orton bury Punk on numerous occassions may make any offer from TNA or elsewhere look more attractive.

4) If his "Superman" act has been noticed by the IWC, then why is he never chewed out for it like Cena is? Part of people's complaints about Cena are that he always emerges victorious (which, ironically, was what they loved about Hulk Hogan and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin). Orton rarely loses, yet is given more favourable treatment. I smell double standards!

5) Judge him by today. Okay, I will, and he is boring! He does a similar match every week (thank goodness he no longer does that interminable headlock), and he no-sells the emotion of any scene.

6) His expressions are on point? What expressions? He seems to pull the same one or two faces all the time. When has he ever shown fear, happiness, grief, concern etc? He seems to pull an angry face, a less angry face, and the blank expression. This works when you are a major heel (it makes you look cold and calculating) but, when you are a face, you need to connect emotionally with the crowd more.

When has Orton ever touched the hands of fans before or after a match?When has he come in for the save, and seen if the beaten-down person is okay? He doesn't have to play to the fans like Cena, but if you are cheering him, it wouldn't hurt for him to acknowledge you once in a while.

7) As for Orton going face because of the crowd cheers, so what! The WWE don't base Cena on how the fans think of him (he is booed out of buildings, yet they won't turn him heel), so why do it the other way?

Not everyone in wrestling has to be turned. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat was never once a heel in his entire career, because he was popular, and being a heel wouldn't have worked for him. Well, it is the same with Orton. Randy Orton is the consummate heel. I went through all his great heel mannersims, and he may be popular as a face, but he would be one of the all-time greats as a heel.

Also, even if the fans want him to go face, why doesn't he at least act like one? He shows nothing different from his face persona. When Chris Jericho went heel last time, he shed his long, sparkly pants and started wearing suits and speaking more slowly. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin as a heel in 2001, was completely different than when he was a face. Orton doesn't play his character any different at all, which means (a) he can't, or (b) he refuses to. If (a), then he is not a great, because he can't change up his character when needed. If (b) then he has a piss-poor attitude, which confirms what I have said about him. I doesn't matter just what he wants, but what WWE needs.

You can continue your love-fest with Randy Orton, but I have no problems shooting Bambi. I am calling Randy Orton's performances as I sen them, and I just think he works MUCH better as a heel than a face IMO.

 

[Mike_The_Miz]

because instead of orton being a tweener. or a heel, like he suppose to be

he is less arrogant (notice how he lift his hands now), and is more for kids if you can say that.

all about making the RKO (my favorite move but still), he can do MUCH MUCH more than he is doing now.

his days as "the legend killer" was Orton at his best, come back!

 

[Sheamus' Suntan]

1) What has charisma got to do with it? Why is it today that all that matters is how someone is on the mike? It is not World Talking Federation. Who cares if DiBiase or Rhodes are great on the stick? Kane was most popular when he was masked and never spoke, Chris Benoit (despite his crimes) was accepted a schampion, despite not being great on the mike. Even the Undertaker rarely speaks these days, yet is hugely over. Mr Kennedy often spoke on the mike, yet sucked in the ring. What's more important?

If you don't like or respect Ted DiBiase or Cody Rhodes, just say so. Don't b.s. about the need to be the next Rock to be a champion, though.

Do you like Orton's slow, montone voice? Yeah, that's real charismatic, isn't it?

I ask you, when has Orton ever, EVER, said one humourous thing on the mike? Chris Jericho, Edge and the Rock could often bring a laugh on the mike. Even "Stone Cold" had some humourous lines. But I have never seen Orton smile, laugh or show much personality at all. But if that turns your wheels, so be it.

Also, of course Orton should have finally emerged the winner. Why not at least put DiBiase and Rhodes over on "Raw", or at least take the beating and act like someone who is outnumbered? If DiBiase and Rhodes got the rub, and then failed, at least they were given a chance to succeed. Maybe neither man would have carried the ball, but it wasn't even given to them.

2) Cody has climbed the ladder because of Cody (and Rey Mysterio, too). Cody's current persona is making him a heel to watch, and it seems having his looks mangled has made him a more interesting character. I give Orton no credit for this, because Orton wasn't even on "Smackdown" when Cody unveiled his new look. It had more to do with Cody's performances at WM27 and "Extreme Rules". So, Orton was right about his potential, but he was wrong to bury him.

3) On Punk. Maybe Punk would be more willing to sign if he was given some victories, and not buried. If you want to keep a talent, you try to make them happy, not piss on him.

Punk is actually very valuable to WWE. I heard that part of why he was given the title, was because his straight-edge lifestyle made him a good role-model for the mainstream. It would be harder for WWE to be criticised for drug-use if its champion has got to the top drug-free. So, Vince needs to remember that about Punk, as well as him being an outstanding talent, and an alternative in main-events to Cena or Orton. Punk has the talent to be the top heel in WWE, and he even has your favourite quality, good stickwork. Having Orton bury Punk on numerous occassions may make any offer from TNA or elsewhere look more attractive.

4) If his "Superman" act has been noticed by the IWC, then why is he never chewed out for it like Cena is? Part of people's complaints about Cena are that he always emerges victorious (which, ironically, was what they loved about Hulk Hogan and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin). Orton rarely loses, yet is given more favourable treatment. I smell double standards!

5) Judge him by today. Okay, I will, and he is boring! He does a similar match every week (thank goodness he no longer does that interminable headlock), and he no-sells the emotion of any scene.

6) His expressions are on point? What expressions? He seems to pull the same one or two faces all the time. When has he ever shown fear, happiness, grief, concern etc? He seems to pull an angry face, a less angry face, and the blank expression. This works when you are a major heel (it makes you look cold and calculating) but, when you are a face, you need to connect emotionally with the crowd more.

When has Orton ever touched the hands of fans before or after a match?When has he come in for the save, and seen if the beaten-down person is okay? He doesn't have to play to the fans like Cena, but if you are cheering him, it wouldn't hurt for him to acknowledge you once in a while.

7) As for Orton going face because of the crowd cheers, so what! The WWE don't base Cena on how the fans think of him (he is booed out of buildings, yet they won't turn him heel), so why do it the other way?

Not everyone in wrestling has to be turned. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat was never once a heel in his entire career, because he was popular, and being a heel wouldn't have worked for him. Well, it is the same with Orton. Randy Orton is the consummate heel. I went through all his great heel mannersims, and he may be popular as a face, but he would be one of the all-time greats as a heel.

Also, even if the fans want him to go face, why doesn't he at least act like one? He shows nothing different from his face persona. When Chris Jericho went heel last time, he shed his long, sparkly pants and started wearing suits and speaking more slowly. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin as a heel in 2001, was completely different than when he was a face. Orton doesn't play his character any different at all, which means (a) he can't, or (b) he refuses to. If (a), then he is not a great, because he can't change up his character when needed. If (b) then he has a piss-poor attitude, which confirms what I have said about him. I doesn't matter just what he wants, but what WWE needs.

You can continue your love-fest with Randy Orton, but I have no problems shooting Bambi. I am calling Randy Orton's performances as I sen them, and I just think he works MUCH better as a heel than a face IMO.

YAY my first war on WZ! YAY!

Right. Let's get down to it.

1. Lets talk Dibiase and Rhodes. ACTUALLY I ADORE these two. Back in Legacy, I thought Dibiase was going to make the cut. Thing is, his CHARISMA let him down. He can't TALK.

Have you EVER seen a star REALLY get over that can't talk? Ok. Benoit. He did. But...9/10 stars ARE WHERE THEY ARE because of how they are on the mic. They have to be WATCHABLE. They have to portray emotion. Orton does this. Dibiase does not. Rhodes however...Rhodes does. I LOVE Rhodes and where they're taking him. You want to say I don't like either, explain why I watch most Smackdown episodes now to see where they're taking Rhodes next...

Some characters don't NEED to be funny.
When Orton was heel, let's go to this, he has BUCKETS of charisma. He showed it by showing RAW emotion in the ring especially during the Kofi angle. Oh, let's not forget the HHH angle where he was DEAD ON TARGET with every facial expression and promo.

Recently its been stale. But that's because he's been given directive to be his old heel persona still because its what the crowd eat up.

You talk about Mr Kennedy. Before his wellness suspension and firing, he was enroute to become WWE/WHC champ. How do I know? He was a WINNER of MITB. SIMPLE. He was given a push because of his mic ability.

You want to play devils advocate with people who have been good on the mic and how unimportant they are?

The Rock - NOT great in the ring. Predictable. GREAT on mic. Arguably the most over star WWE has EVER had.

Stone Cold - you brought him up yourself. Not great in ring. Fantastic on mic.

Hogan - We ALL know what he's like in the ring.
Flair - MUCH better on the mic...
Cena...

These are 5 of WWE's MOST IMPORTANT stars EVER. No-one will question that. They make the money. Taker is the ONE exception to the rule out of the "most important" rule of promos come first. Even then as ABA Taker, he DID cut promos...and that was a lot of people's favourite part of Taker's progression over the years.



2) Funny, that's ACTUALLY what I said. Cody is climbing the ladder because CODY is putting the work in. I don't give Orton credit for Cody. All I said was that you said it was "recently", I said its been over the last YEAR. Not that recent.

3) I dont disagree, Punk should NOT have been buried every time. Clean wins? No. Heels + Clean wins...WHY is everyone obsessed with them? Heels should NOT win cleanly all the frigging time. They should win DIRTY. Ref distractions, weapon shots...I miss the old days where bad guys were ACTUALLY CREDITED for being bad. The Miz brought that back this year...when that all seemed lost. Punk should have won via Nexus and ref distractions. Nothing more, nothing less...because THATS how you put over a group of several potential stars...not bury them.

I agree, Orton squashing Punk was NOT good. I never have said it was but I understand why it was done.


4) NOT BEEN CHEWED OUT?! I dunno. Maybe because Cena did it for 2 YEARS before people went *Yawn*. Orton...2 months and there's ALREADY tons of threads against him including this post in this one?!

5) No sells the emotion of any scene? He sells the emotion of every move done in the match. WWE = Entertainment, NOT wrestling. They've basically scrubbed out that middle word now. Orton can tell a story when he's in the ring like NO OTHER. FACT. He tells it PERFECTLY in the ring. This is why I like Orton. He does the same match every match...ok...

HHH - Same match...every match on RAW and SD.
HBK - Same match.
Cena - Same match.

Unfortunately it's what happens. SD and RAW are the "same match" formula. PPV's are treated differently.

Oh hey, DIFFERENCE in his match at Extreme Rules...was the match was excellent...so was the one at mania...and oh wait, his match vs Christian on SMACKDOWN...while not the ending the IWC wanted to see...was absolutely BRILLIANT.

Boring?
So could any other star be.
To me, I like Morrison. Others find him boring. Personal preference man, personal preference.


6) In match, his expressions ARE great and they always have been. He sells like a mo'fo until the final second. He honestly does. He shows hurt, greif, frustration like the best of them. Okay, he could work on connective emotions more and could connect to the crowd more. I agree, yes. I do agree with that. I guess that's all based on the character WWE want him to produce though.

He's said in an interview he's always found heel more natural. The crowd turned him. He didn't ask for it. I agree, a heel Orton is a happier smackdown in general but it doesn't make him LESS of a star because he's being cheered instead of booed.


7) The ONLY difference in Orton being turned is who he's facing. Instead of facing good guys, he's facing bad guys. The crowd turned him into this.


I have not disagreed with you about him being heel and being better as a heel. He IS a consummate heel and far better at it. Unfortunately the crowd turned him and NOW we complain. This makes the IWC and the crowd a bunch of hypocrites. We WANTED to see him face and instead of being happy with what we get and what WWE gives us, we want different.

I respect Orton. I think he's made one HELL of a comeback from NEARLY being fired for being an ass. At one point he was a heel OUT of character which isn't good. By those days standards he didn't get fired. By these days standards, he would have been. Granted, yes, he could do better work but why the hate on him?

I don't get why everyone has to be so harsh about the guy?
Do YOU go out there 363 days of the year?
Do YOU exhaust yourself, mentally and physically for the hatred of SO many people when its NOT your choice to go out there and portray a character that THEY want you to portray?
Do YOU put your body at risk at house shows, tapings and PPV's?

No.
You don't.
So don't be SO quick to knock someone that does. Orton and EVERY damned star in the locker room DESERVES respect for what they do. I know I couldn't do it...so the least I can do is not have a go over a message board when they don't have the opportunity to answer.

The IWC HONESTLY really annoys me at points and this is why.

3)

 

[d_henderson1810]

YAY my first war on WZ! YAY!

Right. Let's get down to it.

1. Lets talk Dibiase and Rhodes. ACTUALLY I ADORE these two. Back in Legacy, I thought Dibiase was going to make the cut. Thing is, his CHARISMA let him down. He can't TALK.

Have you EVER seen a star REALLY get over that can't talk? Ok. Benoit. He did. But...9/10 stars ARE WHERE THEY ARE because of how they are on the mic. They have to be WATCHABLE. They have to portray emotion. Orton does this. Dibiase does not. Rhodes however...Rhodes does. I LOVE Rhodes and where they're taking him. You want to say I don't like either, explain why I watch most Smackdown episodes now to see where they're taking Rhodes next...

Some characters don't NEED to be funny.
When Orton was heel, let's go to this, he has BUCKETS of charisma. He showed it by showing RAW emotion in the ring especially during the Kofi angle. Oh, let's not forget the HHH angle where he was DEAD ON TARGET with every facial expression and promo.

Recently its been stale. But that's because he's been given directive to be his old heel persona still because its what the crowd eat up.

You talk about Mr Kennedy. Before his wellness suspension and firing, he was enroute to become WWE/WHC champ. How do I know? He was a WINNER of MITB. SIMPLE. He was given a push because of his mic ability.

You want to play devils advocate with people who have been good on the mic and how unimportant they are?

The Rock - NOT great in the ring. Predictable. GREAT on mic. Arguably the most over star WWE has EVER had.

Stone Cold - you brought him up yourself. Not great in ring. Fantastic on mic.

Hogan - We ALL know what he's like in the ring.
Flair - MUCH better on the mic...
Cena...

These are 5 of WWE's MOST IMPORTANT stars EVER. No-one will question that. They make the money. Taker is the ONE exception to the rule out of the "most important" rule of promos come first. Even then as ABA Taker, he DID cut promos...and that was a lot of people's favourite part of Taker's progression over the years.



2) Funny, that's ACTUALLY what I said. Cody is climbing the ladder because CODY is putting the work in. I don't give Orton credit for Cody. All I said was that you said it was "recently", I said its been over the last YEAR. Not that recent.

3) I dont disagree, Punk should NOT have been buried every time. Clean wins? No. Heels + Clean wins...WHY is everyone obsessed with them? Heels should NOT win cleanly all the frigging time. They should win DIRTY. Ref distractions, weapon shots...I miss the old days where bad guys were ACTUALLY CREDITED for being bad. The Miz brought that back this year...when that all seemed lost. Punk should have won via Nexus and ref distractions. Nothing more, nothing less...because THATS how you put over a group of several potential stars...not bury them.

I agree, Orton squashing Punk was NOT good. I never have said it was but I understand why it was done.


4) NOT BEEN CHEWED OUT?! I dunno. Maybe because Cena did it for 2 YEARS before people went *Yawn*. Orton...2 months and there's ALREADY tons of threads against him including this post in this one?!

5) No sells the emotion of any scene? He sells the emotion of every move done in the match. WWE = Entertainment, NOT wrestling. They've basically scrubbed out that middle word now. Orton can tell a story when he's in the ring like NO OTHER. FACT. He tells it PERFECTLY in the ring. This is why I like Orton. He does the same match every match...ok...

HHH - Same match...every match on RAW and SD.
HBK - Same match.
Cena - Same match.

Unfortunately it's what happens. SD and RAW are the "same match" formula. PPV's are treated differently.

Oh hey, DIFFERENCE in his match at Extreme Rules...was the match was excellent...so was the one at mania...and oh wait, his match vs Christian on SMACKDOWN...while not the ending the IWC wanted to see...was absolutely BRILLIANT.

Boring?
So could any other star be.
To me, I like Morrison. Others find him boring. Personal preference man, personal preference.


6) In match, his expressions ARE great and they always have been. He sells like a mo'fo until the final second. He honestly does. He shows hurt, greif, frustration like the best of them. Okay, he could work on connective emotions more and could connect to the crowd more. I agree, yes. I do agree with that. I guess that's all based on the character WWE want him to produce though.

He's said in an interview he's always found heel more natural. The crowd turned him. He didn't ask for it. I agree, a heel Orton is a happier smackdown in general but it doesn't make him LESS of a star because he's being cheered instead of booed.


7) The ONLY difference in Orton being turned is who he's facing. Instead of facing good guys, he's facing bad guys. The crowd turned him into this.


I have not disagreed with you about him being heel and being better as a heel. He IS a consummate heel and far better at it. Unfortunately the crowd turned him and NOW we complain. This makes the IWC and the crowd a bunch of hypocrites. We WANTED to see him face and instead of being happy with what we get and what WWE gives us, we want different.

I respect Orton. I think he's made one HELL of a comeback from NEARLY being fired for being an ass. At one point he was a heel OUT of character which isn't good. By those days standards he didn't get fired. By these days standards, he would have been. Granted, yes, he could do better work but why the hate on him?

I don't get why everyone has to be so harsh about the guy?
Do YOU go out there 363 days of the year?
Do YOU exhaust yourself, mentally and physically for the hatred of SO many people when its NOT your choice to go out there and portray a character that THEY want you to portray?
Do YOU put your body at risk at house shows, tapings and PPV's?

No.
You don't.
So don't be SO quick to knock someone that does. Orton and EVERY damned star in the locker room DESERVES respect for what they do. I know I couldn't do it...so the least I can do is not have a go over a message board when they don't have the opportunity to answer.

The IWC HONESTLY really annoys me at points and this is why.

3)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, here's my response:-

1) You say that wrestlers have to be good on the mike:- So, you would rather watch a debate on WWE television than see people wrestle. Why not stop watching wrestling then, and watch political debates instead. Most politicians are great orators (I know Obama is). If talking was more important than wrestling, a televised meeting at the Oval Office would be more interesting to you than WWE. Give me a break!

I agree that stickwork is important, but not the absolute thing needed to be a champion. Benoit, Undertaker, Masked Kane, Yokozuna, Andre The Giant and others aren't talkers, but are still massively over, and were believable champions.

If talking is the be-all and end-all, let me ask:- If WWE got rid of wrestling altogether, and had PPVs be simply two superstars have a promo war in the ring, would you still pay PPV prices for that. Would you shell out heaps of money for "Talkamania". I would rather watch a Kurt Angle-HBK match than see the Rock cut another promo.

How many great promos are remembered years later. Yet matches from WM3 are still talked about today.

I agree that when Orton was HEEL, he had bucketloads of charisma. That is true, when he was a heel. However, as a face, he is bland. He also was DEAD ON TARGET with facial expressions when he was a HEEL as well. My point is he lacks these things as a face. As a heel, he is much better.

2) & 3) We agree!

4) We'll agree to disagree on this point.

5) I know WWE = entertainment. That is unfortunate. Vince has forgotten what got him to the top of the mountain, and now wants to appease the mainstream, a mainstream and media who hates wrestling and will never accept it.

If the media don't accept wrestling, then screw them. Vince should focus on wrestling first, and if people don;t want to be part of that, that's their loss.

The fans should want to see BOTH- good wrestling and good promos, not just one or the other. ROH suffers because it is too-wrestlingcentric. Well WWE will alienate fans if they go the opposite way.

6) He did do those expressions-when he was a HEEL!

Also, so what if the fans turned Orton. The fans haven't turned Cena face, despite booing him. Either turn people on the basis of the fans, or on the basis of storyline, but not turn one because of the fans, and not another.

Besides, Orton could play ball and TRY to act a little different.

7) I am not part of the IWC "mentality" and never have been. I was against his turn from day one, and he has yet to convince me. I was more convinced of him as a face when Evolution turned on him in 2004 , and he feuded with Triple H and Ric Flair. Orotn acted differently, and was made to look more vulnerable, making him a more appealing heel. He should play his face role like that again.

Also, I have great respect for Orton and everyone who wrestles. I love wrestling, and admire them putting their bodies on the line each night for their dream and to entertain us. But I should be able to make a criticism of a part of one wrestler's personality I don't like. I respect wrestling, but I am not a sycophant. I call it as I see it. I actually have given wrestling more chances than many have, who have already walked away, and yet I am still here.

My main point is that I don't feel that Orton "build stars" and that he was much better as a heel. Do you disagree with either of these points? This is MY opinion, and the last time I looked, I had the right to an opinion.

 

[drmmaoftlos]

Dave Meltzer said over and over that Cena is a "Yes Man" to WWE no matter how stupid or dumb it makes him look. Cena is a big enough star now where he doesn't have to be a "Yes Man" all the time.

The good part is Meltzer said after WWE Raw this past week was the very first time where Cena spoke up against the writers.