Round 3: Psylocke vs. Goku
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Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
This fight isn't as one sided as it might look on the surface.
Goku is physically far superior to Psylocke. Goku is someone with great superhuman strength, speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, resistance to injury, sensory perceptions and energy manipulating capabilities. All he really has to do his land one shot on Psylocke and this fight is over. After all, what's she gonna do if Goku throws a punch or kick her way that packs...I dunno.....10 tons of force behind it? She can't block it and she certainly can't take it. She'd be reduced to a bloody pulp.
Psylocke is a highly skilled martial artist herself and despite the fact that she's physically still human, she can come out of this fight a winner. Psylocke is a skilled telepath and that means she has a whole barrage of mental assaults she can potentially use. She can stun someone's mind and render them unconscious. She can read the minds of others, cast mental illusions, implant suggestions, etc. Then there's her psychic blade, which is a physical manifestation of her powers that she can use to disrupt the nervous system of anyone she stabs with it.
From what I understand, Goku doesn't have any special resistance to telepathic attacks so Psycloke could, theoretically, take him out without really having to lift a finger. While Goku's body is extremely superhuman, that doesn't mean that his mind isn't as vulnerable as the next man's. There are instances of telepaths using their powers to predict the strategy, techniques and attacks of their opponents before they use them; thereby allowing them to be several steps ahead.
Neither of these two are really cold hearted killers. Goku's kind of a big friendly child in a lot of ways really. Psylocke probably has more of the killer instinct as she's been trained by the Hand, HYDRA and various other organizations. One thing you notice about a lot of telepaths who are heroes is that they all seem to have a lot of qualms about using their powers to purposely invade the minds of others. Professor Xavier is like that, Jean Grey was like that, Emma Frost is kind of like that sometimes and I think Psylocke has some of those moral "hangups" as well.
I'm going with Goku for the win, I just think he's ultimately too much for Psylocke, but don't mistake her as being a pushover. She's got the abilities to do some serious damage to Goku mentally and that can give her a highly underestimated edge.
Goku is physically far superior to Psylocke. Goku is someone with great superhuman strength, speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, resistance to injury, sensory perceptions and energy manipulating capabilities. All he really has to do his land one shot on Psylocke and this fight is over. After all, what's she gonna do if Goku throws a punch or kick her way that packs...I dunno.....10 tons of force behind it? She can't block it and she certainly can't take it. She'd be reduced to a bloody pulp.
Psylocke is a highly skilled martial artist herself and despite the fact that she's physically still human, she can come out of this fight a winner. Psylocke is a skilled telepath and that means she has a whole barrage of mental assaults she can potentially use. She can stun someone's mind and render them unconscious. She can read the minds of others, cast mental illusions, implant suggestions, etc. Then there's her psychic blade, which is a physical manifestation of her powers that she can use to disrupt the nervous system of anyone she stabs with it.
From what I understand, Goku doesn't have any special resistance to telepathic attacks so Psycloke could, theoretically, take him out without really having to lift a finger. While Goku's body is extremely superhuman, that doesn't mean that his mind isn't as vulnerable as the next man's. There are instances of telepaths using their powers to predict the strategy, techniques and attacks of their opponents before they use them; thereby allowing them to be several steps ahead.
Neither of these two are really cold hearted killers. Goku's kind of a big friendly child in a lot of ways really. Psylocke probably has more of the killer instinct as she's been trained by the Hand, HYDRA and various other organizations. One thing you notice about a lot of telepaths who are heroes is that they all seem to have a lot of qualms about using their powers to purposely invade the minds of others. Professor Xavier is like that, Jean Grey was like that, Emma Frost is kind of like that sometimes and I think Psylocke has some of those moral "hangups" as well.
I'm going with Goku for the win, I just think he's ultimately too much for Psylocke, but don't mistake her as being a pushover. She's got the abilities to do some serious damage to Goku mentally and that can give her a highly underestimated edge.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
Psylocke can think quicker than Goku can move therefore, even without prep, this battle will be over before it starts.
This is round three, Psylocke mightn't know who she's facing but she doesn't need to be Einstein to realize that her greatest chance of survival is to put her opponent to sleep instantly. Sweet dreams Goku.
This is round three, Psylocke mightn't know who she's facing but she doesn't need to be Einstein to realize that her greatest chance of survival is to put her opponent to sleep instantly. Sweet dreams Goku.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Goku has fought psychics before, most notably General Blue who had the power to freeze people in their tracks. Blue was monstrously powerful for a human, surpassed only by those on Master Roshi's level, and Psylocke probably isn't even there.
And don't forget that his super saiyan transformations cause his mind to become hollow and intense when he powers up. I doubt Psylocke could properly influence a mind filled with rage, especially when he starts to get serious.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
Erm, no! General Blue has weak assed psychic ability that has little effect on stronger opponents... and yet he did defeat a young Goku with this. Betsy is an Omega class telepath (putting her in the Prof X weightclass). Add to this that Psylocke has a psychic blast powerful enough to kill AND to permeate the Juggernaut's psi-proof helmet and I still think her brains are more than enough for Goku's brawn (and this is before we go into such things as the ability to go invisible, her ninja skills that are augmented by her psychic prowess and that peasky psi-blade).
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
You never addressed my second statement; can she manipulate Goku's mind even when it's filled with rage? That's what happens when he becomes a super saiyan, his mind becomes hollow and he filled with nothing but the urge to battle. If so, then show me an example of Psylocke taking down the Hulk. Goku strength is augmented by rage in a fashion very similarly, so its plausible that if she can stop the Hulk then she can stop Goku as well.
Snitsky4GM
Dark Match Winner
I have a couple disagreements with you on these statements. The only times demonstrated that a saiyan's mind is overwhelmed with rage while super saiyan is on the first transformation into a super saiyan, other than that they are calm.
Secondly, a raging Hulk is a totally different level of anger than when Goku was raging out when he fought Frieza. Depending on the incarnation of Hulk he is essentially rage personified.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Wrong; whenever a saiyan powers up to any level they are overcome with rage, arrogance, and a primordial desire to fight. Goku may have been able to train his senses to the point where going super saiyan was as natural as breathing, but if Psylocke forced him to go SSJ3 his mindset would absolutely be the same as it was when he went super saiyan for the first time.
When the Hulk gets angry he becomes a mindless raging monster, and so does a saiyan whenever they power up. Are there drawbacks to powering up? Absolutely. But it's shown that saiyans are resistant to mind control when they power up, as demonstrated when Vegeta broke Babidi's control over him when he powered up to SSJ2.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
First off, that isn't a fair comparison because the Hulk has a natural resistance to mind control in all his forms. Plus there is no history of conflict between the two. But if you do want an example of what a fledgling Psylocke's abilities can do to someone with natural mental defenses.
As far as the example you give of Vegeta overcoming Babidi'd mind control - the level of his ability in this field is driven by the evil of his chosen victim and while Vegeta has many flaws, he is hardly evil incarnate so, again, this is hardly a great example of the strength of the Dragon Ball's telepaths versus Marvel's.
Again, I'm not really seeing anything to persuade me that Goku can last against Betsy.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
And so do DBZ characters when they power up. Vegeta allowed Babadi to invade his mind, take control of his body, raise his power and brand him with the majin mark, and he was still able to break his control by powering up. When Goku powers up, and makes the earth shake, he's overcome by rage just like the Hulk. How would Psylocke be able to influence his mind when there's nothing for her to control but pure rage?
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
Vegeta broke the control because he is not evil, were Babadi's mind control power lies. Plus Vegeta is not Goku and Psylocke is not Babadi and doesn't suffer from any good/ evil constraints on her powers.
I also didn't say that Psylocke couldn't influence the Hulk just that there is a lack of evidence either way. I did however provide examples of how she could impact on characters with strong resistance to mind control, both as an ability and as a physical barrier. Where is the examples of Goku overcoming attacks of this nature?
It has already been established that he could be defeated by a weak psychic when he was younger, why would he not still be susceptible to an Omega class now?
Snitsky4GM
Dark Match Winner
Allowing someone into your mind for a power boost is very different than a complete mental attack. Like I said before Goku is not overcome by rage for all of his other super saiyan transformations. When Goku describes how it originally felt for him to transform into super saiyan he said it was "like a calm quiet heart awakened by intense anger." The other levels just need ridiculous amount of training and a purpose to achieve. Please show examples of Goku being completely blinded by his rage every single time he is super saiyan.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
In order for Babidi's powers to work there has to be evil present in someone's heart. Vegeta had evil thoughts and desires, and for that moment he was evil, that's how Babidi was able to manipulate him in the first place. He later broke Babidi's control just by powering up.
I gave you an example of his resistance, and the closest example to a Marvel character with similarities that I knew was Hulk. If Psylocke hasn't fought the Hulk then give me an example of her being able to use her physic powers to stop someone with a mind filled with rage.
Show me that her powers could affect him when his mind is filled with rage.
When he went SSJ2 for the first time he exploded in rage and retaliation to Vegeta's insults. When he went SSJ3 he became so arrogant and angry that he overestimated his own power... twice. Plus it's demonstrated that whenever he [or any other saiyan] gets enraged his power explodes in small bursts and they become mindless beings hell bent on destruction.
UltimateHitman
Old School Legend
What I'm hearing is that Goku's mind still has an element of calm to it, has "intense anger", but not Hulk-level "mindless rage".
I'm also sure that if this was Hulk vs. Goku, Hulk would emerge victorious. Therefore we can assume that Goku is on a lower level than Hulk.
I would also venture to say that Juggernaut could give Goku a run for his money, and probably come out triumphant, and it's already been shown that even somebody as powerful as Juggy has been surprised by Psylocke's abilities.
From everything I've read here, and my own thoughts about the different types of powers, I can logically conclude that Psylocke has all the tools necessary to defeat Goku.
Sorry DBZ fanatics.
I'm also sure that if this was Hulk vs. Goku, Hulk would emerge victorious. Therefore we can assume that Goku is on a lower level than Hulk.
I would also venture to say that Juggernaut could give Goku a run for his money, and probably come out triumphant, and it's already been shown that even somebody as powerful as Juggy has been surprised by Psylocke's abilities.
From everything I've read here, and my own thoughts about the different types of powers, I can logically conclude that Psylocke has all the tools necessary to defeat Goku.
Sorry DBZ fanatics.
We are forgetting a huge advantage for Goku that takes alot of her powers out of the game. The speed factor. She isnt going to be able to focus on something moving as fast as Goku will be going at her. Show me where she can keep up with that type of speed.
Goku can sense power levels and will be able to tell that she is strong enough in her own way. He will come at her full speed\pop up behind her and WHAM! she is being juggled around. She might be able to sense his presence while he is moving at that speed- but will not know what direction he will attack from or exactly where he is. That is a huge disadvantage for her. He is faster and stronger.
He would appear from any direction, attack, appear again, attack and sends her flying. While she is trying to get her bearings he hits a solar flare blinding her and then he unleashes a energy attack to finish her off.
His speed will allow him the chance to attack and stop her from being able to clearly focus on him. She wont be able to use her psychic blade if she cant hit him and his fighting skill is much better than hers if she does manage to get close.
....and BTW Echelon is right about the Vegeta thing. Also it worked on him because Vegeta was easily swayed by lust for battle and glory from supreme power. He is a dark hearted warrior. Goku is not and it is much harder to take over the mind of the pure of heart like Goku is.
Goku can sense power levels and will be able to tell that she is strong enough in her own way. He will come at her full speed\pop up behind her and WHAM! she is being juggled around. She might be able to sense his presence while he is moving at that speed- but will not know what direction he will attack from or exactly where he is. That is a huge disadvantage for her. He is faster and stronger.
He would appear from any direction, attack, appear again, attack and sends her flying. While she is trying to get her bearings he hits a solar flare blinding her and then he unleashes a energy attack to finish her off.
His speed will allow him the chance to attack and stop her from being able to clearly focus on him. She wont be able to use her psychic blade if she cant hit him and his fighting skill is much better than hers if she does manage to get close.
....and BTW Echelon is right about the Vegeta thing. Also it worked on him because Vegeta was easily swayed by lust for battle and glory from supreme power. He is a dark hearted warrior. Goku is not and it is much harder to take over the mind of the pure of heart like Goku is.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Echelon, I don't often accuse of you being totally off-base, but you're wrong about Goku's Saiyan transformation provoking immediate primordial urges and unquenchable rage. It's true of MOST of the Saiyan race. Vegeta proves it; just about everybody else does too. There's canon that backs up your claim. The only problem with it is: Goku's not a normal Saiyan warrior. He has all the powers and potential of the greatest of his race, but the compassion of a human. His bloodline is still intact, but it's his humanity that ultimately proves the difference.
A traditional Saiyan, in a battle with Freiza, would have transformed and immediately ripped him apart. If his rage was so out of control he would have used his new-found power to destroy everything in its path. We see this with ALL the Great Ape transformations; that's the most base level of Saiyan power incarnate. But Goku's tranformation was provoked by the unnecessary murder of his best friend. And when he did make the switch he had enough control to get everybody out of harm's way before he went to battle. There was obvious rage, and the SS change added to it, but it was mostly based off the fact that his BFF just got blown up two minutes prior. Another great example of Goku's control is that he still played the defense. He stood there, knowing he was now the greater opponent, and took dozens of Freiza's best attacks like it was nothing. And then...instead of killing him...he gave him another chance to live!! Even in that ultimate form of rage, Goku had the human compassion to allow Freiza one more shot at changing himself for the better. And yes, Goku did ultimately kill him for the betterment of all life everywhere, but only as the last possible option.
The urgent nature of Goku's fight with Majin Vegeta was simply that he needed to move on to Buu as quickly as possible. Vegeta was simply in his way, and he knew the fight wouldn't be a problem. The issue at hand was saving the world from Buu during his limited time on Earth (he was dead).
Speaking of which, when Goku does get to Buu he ascends to SS3 and doesn't immediately lose his shit like you claim he would. He didn't just become a mindless monkey space warrior. In fact, he actually powered back down and decided to deliver one of the most condescending, fan-dumb filled speeches in all of anime history, explaining all the levels of the Saiyan and showing off the SS3 for the first time. And then yes, he beats the holy hell out of Buu immediately after. But again, his time was extremely limited, and the more he stayed in that state the more strain it put on his body, and even the lesser time he had to save the world. He also manages to stop fighting and stall long enough for Trunks to do his job.
SS4 finally happened in GT, and after he calmed his monkey-ass (literally) back down and was as cool as a cucumber. Explained the sitch to Hercule and Pan (I hate them. I hate them so much.) and then flew off into the distance to save the earth, yet again.
Got to admit this one is tough to decide, but Gokus got it.
Goku has Psylocke easily covered in speed strength and battle smarts (he may be borderline ******ed normally but when he fights he is very intelligent). The thing that made this tough for me was Psylockes psychic ability and how she is able to get into her opponents minds, however when it comes down to it I think Goku has the will to fight it and pull up the win
Goku has Psylocke easily covered in speed strength and battle smarts (he may be borderline ******ed normally but when he fights he is very intelligent). The thing that made this tough for me was Psylockes psychic ability and how she is able to get into her opponents minds, however when it comes down to it I think Goku has the will to fight it and pull up the win
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Lets not underestimate Psylockes power here, the girl can fire mental force blasts that can “shatter mountains.” She can get into his mind & wreak all kinds of havoc, such as mind control, inducing temporary mental & physical paralysis, & cause total amnesia. Which would give Psylocke plenty of opening to take advantage cut this fuckers head off, or just leaving him lying in a puddle of his own drool & mindless fucking mess. She can also hide her presence form him using a psonic shadow, making it nearly impossible for Gokum to know where she is much less where to direct his attack. Psylocke is not the push over DBZ would like you to think she is, she could hold her own with this clown, & likely beat him, though I'm sure they'll just come back wityh something ridiculous & stupid like "Gooku could just transform into SJ458e4 power & vaporize her form existence!!!"
Fuck Goki, fuck DBZ, vote Psylocke, make the future rounds more interesting & fun.
Fuck Goki, fuck DBZ, vote Psylocke, make the future rounds more interesting & fun.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
I would say that the likes of Goku, Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and both Trunks overcome the rage that is inherent in the Super Saiyan transformation as the series progresses. However, that does not mean that Psylocke can definitely invade Goku's mind for just because it is under control, does not mean that such rage is not still there. Indeed, the fact that Goku still cannot make the Spirit Bomb as a SSJ proves that it is still there.
On top of that, for such rage not to be overpowering means that in some way, they have been able to overcome it and keep it under control. This would require mental defences greater than the rage itself, meaning that Goku, who for my money is the most mentally strong of the Saiyans, will have some resistance to psychic attacks.
It is still a difficult thing to give any sort of definite answer on as the Saiyans do not come up against any powerful psychics, although it is worth noting that Vegeta had to allow Babidi to invade his mind, suggesting that his mental defences could have fought that invasion off.
On top of that, for such rage not to be overpowering means that in some way, they have been able to overcome it and keep it under control. This would require mental defences greater than the rage itself, meaning that Goku, who for my money is the most mentally strong of the Saiyans, will have some resistance to psychic attacks.
It is still a difficult thing to give any sort of definite answer on as the Saiyans do not come up against any powerful psychics, although it is worth noting that Vegeta had to allow Babidi to invade his mind, suggesting that his mental defences could have fought that invasion off.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Goku is a saiyan warrior with a lust for battle just as strong as any other member of his race. The only reason why he shows any mercy to his enemies is for the hopes of fighting them again. He doesn't show his enemies mercy to be compassionate; he does so because he loves to fight.
He shows compassion for the human race, sure, but so does Vegeta so it's a moot point. He protects them because they can't protect themselves; if they could, he wouldn't even bother unless he got to fight a strong opponent.
Sorry Killam, but this is wrong. When Goku first transformed he had every desire to kill Frieza, but he spared him for two reasons 1.) he figured embarrassing the tyrant by beating him would be a fate worse than death. This was later shown to be true, and 2.) he recognized Frieza as a strong opponent and wanted to fight him again, as evident when he gave him some of his energy... which became a moot point anyway when Frieza tried to kill him and failed.
Which he wasn't strong enough to do anyway, so he left that task to the kids.
I wasn't referring to his mindset after his transformation
I was referring to his mindset during his transformation. Redundant considering this does nothing to disprove the notion that his mind was filled with rage while he was powering up to SSJ3.
GT isn't canon; SSJ4 may have been designed by Toriyama, but he did not write the story.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
Source: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Babidi's_Mind_Control
Yet again, not really saying much for this guys psychic ability and it implies that Vegeta could have resisted from the off - ie when his mind was calm.
Actually you have given me an example of Vegeta's resistance and that has more than the slightest question mark over it. You ask for Psylocke's abilities against someone filled with rage because that is what will allegedly protect Goku. I have told you that example can't be provided because we don't have a like for like example. I have, however, provided you with examples of how her abilities can affect those with strong psychic defenses.
See above, show me where Goku has overcome the telepathy of a psychic whose powers don't have an asterix... actually, has there been ANY example given of HIM overcoming mind control?
Even going with the theory that he isn't sleeping, Betsy can make herself so undetectable that the combined abilities of Wolverine and Jean Grey are standing scratching their heads wondering where she is.
Given Goku's questionable intelligence and the fact that she is a trained assassin, my money would still be with Psylocke.
Snitsky4GM
Dark Match Winner
I agree with everything you have said, but when it comes down to mind control we shouldn't be comparing Psylocke to Babidi. Babidi is a sorcerer who used a spell to exploit an emotion he was not invading the mind of someone else using psychic powers like Psylocke's.
Alrighty then, Justinsayne's intervention has inspired myself to post.
Goku wins this. The arguments provided by Echelon & Barbosa are correct arguments, the poll is also correct. Goku's the strongest of all the Saiyans in Dragonball, both mentally and physically. That means that if Vegeta could break mind control then so can Goku, it's shown throughout the series that Goku is always a step ahead of Vegeta in terms of strength. So Psylocke's whole mind control scenario doesn't work, so how about actual combat? Well, no. She stands no chance. I get that she's tough and shit but Goku's on another level. Well, then let's try out Psylocke's third argument; Goku's stupid, apparently. Goku knows a threat when he sees one, note how quickly he transformed to SS3 when he fought Janemba. So that just means if Psylocke poses this threat you speak of, Goku will deal with her quickly. Oh and finally, to counter the Psonic Shadow argument; Goku has the reflexes to avoid an attack without seeing it, he has senses after all. Using these senses, he can detect what little power levels Psylocke would have, then he could attack her all he wants.
And there you have it, Goku wins. Comfortably.
Goku wins this. The arguments provided by Echelon & Barbosa are correct arguments, the poll is also correct. Goku's the strongest of all the Saiyans in Dragonball, both mentally and physically. That means that if Vegeta could break mind control then so can Goku, it's shown throughout the series that Goku is always a step ahead of Vegeta in terms of strength. So Psylocke's whole mind control scenario doesn't work, so how about actual combat? Well, no. She stands no chance. I get that she's tough and shit but Goku's on another level. Well, then let's try out Psylocke's third argument; Goku's stupid, apparently. Goku knows a threat when he sees one, note how quickly he transformed to SS3 when he fought Janemba. So that just means if Psylocke poses this threat you speak of, Goku will deal with her quickly. Oh and finally, to counter the Psonic Shadow argument; Goku has the reflexes to avoid an attack without seeing it, he has senses after all. Using these senses, he can detect what little power levels Psylocke would have, then he could attack her all he wants.
And there you have it, Goku wins. Comfortably.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
First off, Snitz, I'm not making that argument - I'm merely pointing out the flaws and you have just added another element to how it doesn't prove Goku's great mental prowess against telepaths while enraged. If Vegeta's rage is what breaks a sorcerer's spell, it doesn't hold that rage would break a sustained mental attack.
What? He's stronger than Vegeta so he can avoid mind control? Just how does being stringer make you less susceptible? And I take it you can provide proof of his advantage in mental strength?
Erm, has anyone tried to make an argument on this?
Nice contradiction, he knows a threat but Psylocke only provides "little power"
Jean Grey who is widely regarded as Marvel's premier telepath cannot sense Psylocke when she doesn't want to be sensed. Even with his heightened senses, neither can Wolverine. She is a highly skilled ninja (aka assassin), you do the maths!
Nope
What? He's stronger than Vegeta so he can avoid mind control? Just how does being stringer make you less susceptible? And I take it you can provide proof of his advantage in mental strength?
Erm, has anyone tried to make an argument on this?
Nice contradiction, he knows a threat but Psylocke only provides "little power"
Jean Grey who is widely regarded as Marvel's premier telepath cannot sense Psylocke when she doesn't want to be sensed. Even with his heightened senses, neither can Wolverine. She is a highly skilled ninja (aka assassin), you do the maths!
Nope
Mentally stronger, I said this. Read twice next time please thank you! Proof? The proof is there my friend. Goku transforms to a Super Saiyan before Vegeta, therefore breaking the mental barriers before Vegeta, he does this with every transformation. Fuck Vegeta can't even reach SS4 without technological intervention.
Nice contradiction, he knows a threat but Psylocke only provides "little power"
Jean Grey who is widely regarded as Marvel's premier telepath cannot sense Psylocke when she doesn't want to be sensed. Even with his heightened senses, neither can Wolverine. She is a highly skilled ninja (aka assassin), you do the maths!
Well, compared to Goku & Goku's opponents later on in Dragonball Z, Psylocke definitely has little power levels. Wolverine's senses obviously don't quite stack up to Goku's. And Jean Grey obviously doesn't have Goku's reflexes. Goku's also been involved in battling an invisible foe prior to Psylocke. That experience surely comes into play.
Let's quote Mr Bryan:
YES!
YES!
YES!
- Status
