Round 1: Blue Cardinal -vs- Riaku

[D-Man]

Which is the better Elimination Chamber match? Survivor Series 2002 or Summerslam 2003?

This is a first round match in the Debater's League. Blue Cardinal is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate he will be on and who debates first, but he has 24 hours to make his choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Good luck.​

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I'm going to take the SummerSlam 2003 match and I'll let my opponent go first.

 

[ABMorales787]

First, I apology for the delay. Lots of family visiting. Anyway, good luck Blue. Lets have a nice fight.

The 2002 Elimination Chamber is a historically significant one as opposed to its 2003 counterpart. It was the original and it set the standard for all other Chamber matches to follow. It also had a very sentimental fell good ending with Shawn Michaels capturing the World Heavyweight Championship after his 4 year hiatus. This match featured a lot of shock. Mostly due to it being the first match of its kind.

If you watch it from the point of view of which these two matches took place, what would impress you more? Seeing a man being tossed through the plexi-glass capsule for the first time tends to be a lot more amazing the first time than the second. The same can be said about jumping off the top of a capsule.

But there is more to the match than it being the first ever. It also featured a very solid performance while still having to deal with an injury mid-match when Rob Van Dam accidentally drove his knee to Triple H's throat, leaving him gasping for air for well over 15 minutes of the match. Rob Van Dam was a highlight to the match. He jumped off the top of the capsule, got trapped through one capsule, avoided crashing on to one by hanging on to it in a Spiderman like fashion. It featured a much more varied set wrestlers in it with one powerhouse in Kane, a high flyer in RVD, a face showman in Booker T, 2 mastermind heels in Triple H and Jericho and the then wildcard, HBK. As opposed to the following Chamber match that saw an overaged and injured Kevin Nash, an inexperienced Randy Orton and 3 of the previous years match, plus Goldberg.

I'll leave it here for now. I look forward to Blues reply. Again I apologize for the delay.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

First, I apology for the delay. Lots of family visiting. Anyway, good luck Blue. Lets have a nice fight.

It's all good man, I have some things going on aswell so I'll appoligize for future tardiness if it happens. Good luck Pikachu .

The 2002 Elimination Chamber is a historically significant one as opposed to its 2003 counterpart. It was the original and it set the standard for all other Chamber matches to follow. It also had a very sentimental fell good ending with Shawn Michaels capturing the World Heavyweight Championship after his 4 year hiatus. This match featured a lot of shock. Mostly due to it being the first match of its kind.

Getting right to one of the biggest reasons I choose the SummerSlam installment over this one, this match was all about HBK. There's no denying it, this was Shawn's match, so it takes away from the match itself. Feel good story, yes. But the better match, no.

I would say the SummerSlam match was the better in terms of the venue, just look at the PPVs. SummerSlam is the 2nd biggest PPV in the WWE, I don't know about you, but most people, including me prefer the "big fight feel" SummerSlam gives you that.

Also just because this was the first ever Elimination Chamber match doesn't mean it's the best. Look at WrestleMania I for example, just because it was the first doesn't mean it was the best WrestleMania III holds that crown with most.

If you watch it from the point of view of which these two matches took place, what would impress you more? Seeing a man being tossed through the plexi-glass capsule for the first time tends to be a lot more amazing the first time than the second. The same can be said about jumping off the top of a capsule.

I sort of covered this way of thinking a second ago, just because something happens first doesn't mean it can't be topped. The spot where Goldberg speared Y2J through the plexiglass stands out more to me and I didn't even watch these matches when they happened, I can't imagine how this would have came across if I'd have seen it live.

But there is more to the match than it being the first ever. It also featured a very solid performance while still having to deal with an injury mid-match when Rob Van Dam accidentally drove his knee to Triple H's throat, leaving him gasping for air for well over 15 minutes of the match. Rob Van Dam was a highlight to the match. He jumped off the top of the capsule, got trapped through one capsule, avoided crashing on to one by hanging on to it in a Spiderman like fashion. It featured a much more varied set wrestlers in it with one powerhouse in Kane, a high flyer in RVD, a face showman in Booker T, 2 mastermind heels in Triple H and Jericho and the then wildcard, HBK. As opposed to the following Chamber match that saw an overaged and injured Kevin Nash, an inexperienced Randy Orton and 3 of the previous years match, plus Goldberg.

I would say the 2003 match had the more exciting match in terms of workers, you had the big three from the first match in HBK, HHH, and Y2J then you take away Kane who is always just thrown into matches like this to be there, yet no one expects him to win. Rob Van Dam, who at this point was just becoming a title threat, after losing the IC belt a few weeks prior to this match. Then you take away Booker T who was buried by the Rock on his first day on the job.

After that subtraction you add an up and coming Evolution member Randy Orton who has become the hottest thing in pro wrestling today, "Big Sexy" Kevin Nash who has tons of history with everyone involed in the match, and probably the hottest thing ever in pro wrestling, Goldberg. Also add in that Shawn was back at the top of his game and Triple H had just started one of the most sucsessful stables in history, I'd say that's the better line up.

I'll leave it here for now. I look forward to Blues reply. Again I apologize for the delay.

It's still ok.

 

[ABMorales787]

It's all good man, I have some things going on aswell so I'll appoligize for future tardiness if it happens. Good luck Pikachu .

Getting right to one of the biggest reasons I choose the SummerSlam installment over this one, this match was all about HBK. There's no denying it, this was Shawn's match, so it takes away from the match itself. Feel good story, yes. But the better match, no.

The Summerslam match was all Triple H. From a smarks point of view, people already knew about Triple H and what he's been doing backstage. From a mark's point of view, it was very difficult to imagine anybody else winning. Nash? No, very out of shape and injury prone. He was also leaving to do movies. Orton? Way too young back then. He wouldn't start his "Legend Killer" gimmick until the next PPV. HBK? Not really. It was a bit possible, but this is when he was beginning to push young guys. Y2J was a glorified mid-carder by this point, being lowered to teaming with Christian and feuding with The Dudleys. Goldberg was the only one viable as a possible winner. Even so, it seemed unlikely for Triple H to lose clean to a guy with zero build, zero cover-up, unless it was somebody close to him.

Case in point, this Chamber was all Triple H. No sentiment. Just a throwaway attraction so Triple H did lose in a big event. As opposed to 2002's edition that featured the return of an icon and set the stage to just how big his career would become.

I would say the SummerSlam match was the better in terms of the venue, just look at the PPVs. SummerSlam is the 2nd biggest PPV in the WWE, I don't know about you, but most people, including me prefer the "big fight feel" SummerSlam gives you that.

Back then Survivor Series was just as big. The previous year featured the end of The Alliance. This one was in Madison Square Garden and also featured Saliva performing live from The World just outside. How is that not a big match feel?

Also just because this was the first ever Elimination Chamber match doesn't mean it's the best. Look at WrestleMania I for example, just because it was the first doesn't mean it was the best WrestleMania III holds that crown with most.

No. But it sets the standard for all the rest. It becomes historical. Think about WM I. It wasn't good, but because of what followed, it became much more large than what it really is. Or the first Money In The Bank Ladder Match. It was great, but with every new edition, it becomes bugger. Just remember how it was used to promote the MITB PPV.

I sort of covered this way of thinking a second ago, just because something happens first doesn't mean it can't be topped. The spot where Goldberg speared Y2J through the plexiglass stands out more to me and I didn't even watch these matches when they happened, I can't imagine how this would have came across if I'd have seen it live.

True, but it leads people to recall the first time. Like I said. Setting the standard, like I said. At this years, MITB PPV, Evan Bourne performed tremendously and performed athletics maneuvers that Shelton Benjamin had previously done. Even topping them. But Shelton's previous performances come to mind almost immediately after seeing some of the acrobatics.

I would say the 2003 match had the more exciting match in terms of workers, you had the big three from the first match in HBK, HHH, and Y2J then you take away Kane who is always just thrown into matches like this to be there, yet no one expects him to win. Rob Van Dam, who at this point was just becoming a title threat, after losing the IC belt a few weeks prior to this match. Then you take away Booker T who was buried by the Rock on his first day on the job.

Booker T being made to look bad did not make him a bad performer. Rob Van Dam was was at his most exciting and gave great matches at the period this match took place. Kane was at this hottest. Y2J still had some main event steam to him.

After that subtraction you add an up and coming Evolution member Randy Orton who has become the hottest thing in pro wrestling today, "Big Sexy" Kevin Nash who has tons of history with everyone involed in the match, and probably the hottest thing ever in pro wrestling, Goldberg. Also add in that Shawn was back at the top of his game and Triple H had just started one of the most sucsessful stables in history, I'd say that's the better line up.

You are looking into the future. Randy would not become the hottest thing in wrestling for over 5 more years. Kevin Nash was at his physical worst, injuring himself too easily. Evolution was still very young and lacked it's full line-up. Goldberg was indeed very hot back then, but the same politics that plagued him in WCW plagued him here.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

j/k buddy j/k

By the way I can't believe I missed this point in my first post. HBK's ring attire was leaps and bounds better in the 03 match than in the 2002 match up. A wrestler's look can really add or subtract from a match. When Shawn won at Survivor Series he looked like a clown, just sayin'. It was hard to look at him and not at least chuckle.

The Summerslam match was all Triple H. From a smarks point of view, people already knew about Triple H and what he's been doing backstage. From a mark's point of view, it was very difficult to imagine anybody else winning. Nash? No, very out of shape and injury prone. He was also leaving to do movies. Orton? Way too young back then. He wouldn't start his "Legend Killer" gimmick until the next PPV. HBK? Not really. It was a bit possible, but this is when he was beginning to push young guys. Y2J was a glorified mid-carder by this point, being lowered to teaming with Christian and feuding with The Dudleys. Goldberg was the only one viable as a possible winner. Even so, it seemed unlikely for Triple H to lose clean to a guy with zero build, zero cover-up, unless it was somebody close to him.

Well I'm trying to look at this mostly from the mark's point of view, since they make up the biggest percentage of wrestling fans and what they would consider the best match would be the SummerSlam bout. Both matches have their faults and both had the guy you pretty much knew was going to win, but from the mark's point of view the SummerSlam match was a bit more unpredictable.

Marks remember Goldberg as the most dominent force in pro wrestling so he was a probable winner. Nash had bested Goldberg and the previous year's winner HBK in the past so he could be seen as coming out on top. Jericho beat the Rock and Stone Cold in the same night, so it seemed as if he could do the impossible and be a likely winner. Trips was the champ, HBK won it the year before and Randy was a young up and comer that was in Evolution and had the world ahead of him, he was really the only person I can see that at the time wouldn't have been a believable Heavyweight Champion, yet of course.

Case in point, this Chamber was all Triple H. No sentiment. Just a throwaway attraction so Triple H did lose in a big event. As opposed to 2002's edition that featured the return of an icon and set the stage to just how big his career would become.

At least it was more about the champion. One thing though, didn't Trippy win this match?

Also my match really set Evolution up to be the powerhouse it would become, I'd say we are pretty even in this catagory really.

Back then Survivor Series was just as big. The previous year featured the end of The Alliance. This one was in Madison Square Garden and also featured Saliva performing live from The World just outside. How is that not a big match feel?

Survivor Series was in the Big 4, it was number 4 though and Vince just killed it. SummerSlam will (more than likely) be around as long as the company is still making money. In my eyes SummerSlam is a must see event for fans, where as Survivor Series isn't really anything special, just a glorified multi-man tag match. For future reference, I wouldn't talk about the Alliance angle in a debate about the best anything.

No. But it sets the standard for all the rest. It becomes historical. Think about WM I. It wasn't good, but because of what followed, it became much more large than what it really is. Or the first Money In The Bank Ladder Match. It was great, but with every new edition, it becomes bugger. Just remember how it was used to promote the MITB PPV.

So you helped me make my case right here, every year an event gets bigger and better. Isn't that the question? Which match was better?

True, but it leads people to recall the first time. Like I said. Setting the standard, like I said. At this years, MITB PPV, Evan Bourne performed tremendously and performed athletics maneuvers that Shelton Benjamin had previously done. Even topping them. But Shelton's previous performances come to mind almost immediately after seeing some of the acrobatics.

Standard isn't the best though bro, it's standard. The 2002 match might have set the bar for future chamber matches, but it set the bar for future matches to top, like the 2003 match did.

Booker T being made to look bad did not make him a bad performer. Rob Van Dam was was at his most exciting and gave great matches at the period this match took place. Kane was at this hottest. Y2J still had some main event steam to him.

If a guy looks bad then he's not believable to the crowd as a legitimate contender, example Booker T. RVD has always put on great matches, I'll give you that, but putting on good matches doesn't make you a belielable threat to the title in a mark's eyes, if being a good worker made you a multi-time World Champ then Benoit would have been the guy with 10+ title reigns. Kane I'll give you. Jericho has always been a wildcard since he won the Undisputed Title so I'd say we're even on him.

You are looking into the future. Randy would not become the hottest thing in wrestling for over 5 more years. Kevin Nash was at his physical worst, injuring himself too easily. Evolution was still very young and lacked it's full line-up. Goldberg was indeed very hot back then, but the same politics that plagued him in WCW plagued him here.

You're right I am look forward a bit, but we're looking back at wgich match was better so you have to take what happened after these matches into account. You did with saying the 2003 match set up HBK's 2nd career. Nash, again he was a believable threat to the title in the match, even if he was getting old (he's still wrestling isn't he?) Sorry for the jab there. Evolution was one of the biggest stables ever, and the leader was the champ going in and coming out of the match. Goldberg would go on to take the title off of Trips in the near future so this match really helped set that up.

All in all I say 2003>2002. The participants were bigger stars and all legitimate threats to win the match, the match was on a bigger PPV, the match had better spots, and was in general more exciting than the original.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Riaku
Riaku came off better in his view of the subject at hand, he kept the subject on course and focused about the match, while using his informative back up, he didn't use it to stray from the subject itself.

Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
Riaku was late to start the debate after BC chose and didn't respond to his last post.

Informative: Riaku
Very informative, gave information about the Chamber matches in particular and made many references to other matches to back his debate. BC mainly cover the match and Summerslam itself as Riaku as the info covered here.

Persuasion: Riaku
While both debaters gave a great insight, Riaku was more convincing for me. had there been an emotional point this year, I would give this to BC, but as calm and collected Riaku was, he made his points clear, took in what BC said and came up with an effective response to what he said. BC for me seemed to go with the method of saying the 2003 Chamber was better because it wasn't the 2002 one and tried to get Riaku to say the words he wanted to hear to back his point but Riaku kept strong.

Final Score
Riaku: 4
Blue Cardinal: 1

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Blue Cardinal, homey, I can only award you 1 out of the 5 points in this debate. Why? Because you forgot an opening argument! An opening argument is essential to any debate. You had great some points and counterpoints to make, but I had to infer from your rebuttals and back-and-forth with Riaku what your main argument might have looked like had you posted one in the first place.

Riaku, good job. You're going to come up against some heavy hitters in this league, and, with that in mind, I have one piece of advice for you: video evidence (e.g., youtube and dailymotion) only helped out people in last year's debate league.

Final Score

Riaku: 4 (Clarity, Informative, and Persuasion)

Blue Cardinal: 1 (Punctuality)

 

[BooCocky]

I pretty much agree with Tdigle here. You can not have a formal debate without an opening argument. You needed to present your topic. Without that we don't necessarily know your point. It's hard going by your rebuttals. Riaku won the Clarity part because we knew his points from the very beginning. He also won the persuasion part. Riaku has his point from the very beginning. It was also very informative. Riaku was late once, which is why it wasn't a clean sweep.

Riaku - 4
BC - 1

 

[CH David]

Clarity: The lack of an opening argument and even a closing argument hurt Blue here.

Point: Riaku

Punctuality: Riaku was late and then stopped showing up.

Point: Blue Cardinal

Informative: Both could have been better with using information. I didn't feel as the others did about Riaku's information, even with a solid opening argument. It was decent, but needed to be better.

Point: Split

Persuasion: Neither guy did anything in regards of actual persuasion for me. Again, Riaku had a solid opener, and while Blue's lack of an opener hurt him, Riaku's lack of showing up (even with reason) to argue his point with more facts backing him up hurt him in my eyes.

Point: Split

CH David scores this Riaku 2.5, Blue Cardinal 2.5.

 

[Phoenix]

After a complete judge's tally, Riaku is the victor on 14.5 points to Blue Cardinals' 5.5.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!