Round 6: Blue Cardinal -vs- nickb03

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Sep 5, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which WCW moment was worse, Hogan defeating Sting clean at Starrcade 97 or the Fingerpoke of Doom?

    This is a sixth round match in the Debater's League. Blue Cardinal is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    I'm taking Starrcade 97 and I'll let Nicholas have a go at his side first.
     
  3. Big Nick Dudley

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    Which WCW moment was worse, Hogan defeating Sting clean at Starrcade 97 or the Fingerpoke of Doom?

    I will be arguing that the infamous "Fingerpoke of Doom" was far worse for WCW than Sting losing clean to Hogan at Starrcade 1997 was.

    Hulk Hogan defeating Sting (clean) at Starrcade 1997 was poorly done, and made WCW look stupid. WCW took a storyline, their biggest storyline, over a year in the making, and basically raped it. Sting was built up as the one guy who could bring WCW together, defeat Hulk Hogan and destroy the nWo. And what happened? Hulk Hogan won this match. Terrible booking. Terrible writing. Most definitely not the way the storyline should have ended/continued. But in all reality, it was just a storyline, and WCW didn't suffer enough damage right after that night for it to be comparable to The Fingerpoke of Doom.

    The Fingerpoke of Doom was not only the most idiotic finish to a major title match WCW ever came up with, but it directly hurt the company all together. That same night, on the USA network, Mick Foley was to be shown beating The Rock (with help from Steve Austin) for the WWF Championship. So WCW, in what might have been their second biggest blunder of the night, gave away the result of Foley's title win to their audience (Raw had been taped six days earlier). Tony Schiavone, directed by Eric Bischoff, told the entire viewing audience that Foley would win the strap on Raw. Not only did he inform the crowd of this, he also insulted WWF's decision to have Foley win the belt.

    Result? Over half a million fans immediately changed the station to see what was happening on Raw with Mick Foley and The Rock. I guess ol' Mick Foley was a bit more popular than Bischoff and company had expected.

    WCW made a lot of mistakes on Monday, January 4th, 1999, but no mistake as destructive as "The Fingerpoke of Doom".
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This particular Nitro was to feature a rematch between the new WCW Heavyweight champion Kevin Nash, and the former champion Bill Goldberg (in Atlanta, GA, the same city where Bill Goldberg had played professional football, and in the same state he had played college football for the University of Georgia). This match was supposed to be huge. Nash had just ended Goldbergs undefeated streak (at 173 wins) at Starrcade 98, amid controversy due to interference by Scott Hall.

    So what did fans get? Some idiotic angle with Miss Elizabeth lying about Goldberg assaulting her. Goldberg goes to jail. Who happens to show up during all of this? Hulk Hogan. Who takes Goldbergs (the hottest thing in WCW) spot? Hulk..Hogan. So now fans are being "treated" to a Hogan vs. Nash main event... for the title.

    Hogan hadn't been seen in months, but that meant nothing to the morons writing for WCW (you would probably have a better chance of finding Jimmy Hoffa than finding out who exactly was in charge at that time). Goldberg was the hottest thing going in WCW, but that also meant nothing to Hogan, Nash and company. They wanted/needed the spotlight.

    Even though this match would have probably been garbage any way it had been booked, nothing could have been worse than what actually happened. Nash and Hogan entered the ring, Hogan actually poked Nash in the chest, Nash hit the mat (in probably the best bump of his career), and Hogan pinned him 1-2-3. I remember watching this in absolute disbelief. Not because I was shocked, entertained, etc. But because I knew I had just watched the most idiotic thing (maybe) in pro wrestling history.

    I could have taken time out to explain what led to this storyline, who was on who's side..but who really cares. It was botched so badly, the storyline didn't even matter. The nWo had become about as stale and overdone as any storyline in pro wrestling can become. There were 59 different nWo factions (ok, a bit of an exaggeration), and only the nWo mattered to the booking team. Everyone else was being buried, and they were beating a dead horse week in, and week out.

    After this horrid incident, WCW never won another Monday Night battle in the ratings, and only went over a 5.0 one more time. Actually, that's not entirely accurate; WCW did beat WWF one more time..during a the Westminster Dog Show. This incident, on top of months of terrible booking, left such a sour taste in the mouth of fans all across the country, WWF took the lead and never looked back.

    What is even more interesting is that WCW, after giving away the results of the Foley/Rock match, still had a chance to keep the fans coming back. Nitro had about 5 minutes left to go, and hadn't even started their title match when Raw went off the air. All of the viewers Nitro had lost actually switched back to the broadcast...and then they were treated to the "Fingerpoke of Doom."

    So not only had WCW ruined it's own ratings that night, it put on a main event so poorly received, it actually helped WWF turn the tide, and win the Monday Night War. WCW Fans were sick and tired of the way WCW was being booked. People wanted to see new stars being built, and guys like Goldberg (one of the few new stars WCW actually pushed) keep his momentum. They wanted something fresh after having watched the nWo angle clog the toilet for months. It was old, just like WCW's "biggest names," and no one in their creative department was willing to acknowledge that.

    Also, WCW took the credibility of the WHC, and flushed it down the shitter. Never had a World title changed hands in such a lazy, idiotic fashion on national television.

    WCW thought they had something huge with this match. They were basically putting a PPV caliber match on free television, in their home state. What could go wrong? Everything, as it turned out. I agree with my opponent that Starrcade 1997 ended in a more than terrible fashion. But can anyone honestly say it had a more negative impact on WCW than the infamous "Fingerpoke of Doom" did? WCW basically shot themselves in the foot, and handed the Monday Night War to the WWF on a silver platter. This was probably the most important Monday Night during that era, and I bet those who ran WCW wish it would have never aired.

    P.S.- In case those of you want to watch this terrible ordeal the way it happened, here's the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UU5JBH4II&feature=related
     
  4. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    Props to Nick, he covered everything pretty well in his opening post, from what happened on that night in 97 to the imfamous "Fingerpoke of Doom". I'd just like to point out my reasoning for taking the 97 match over the Fingerpoke.

    Starrcade was WCW's WrestleMania, the biggest event in that company's history, all eyes where on them and this match. Everyone wanted Sting to win this match, everyone knew Sting would win this match. But Hogan comes out on top? No thanks, I'll pass on that, as did everyone and their mother.

    This angle was built for over a year, from everyone doubting Sting and thinking he joined nWo to the change in his gimmick to the Crow. Sting stalked the nWo fro this whole time, sitting up in the rafters, waiting, watching. He wanted one thing and that was Hogan, he was WCW's best chance to stop the nWo and bring WCW together. This was the biggest angle of the decade, if not ever, and this was when WCW was at the top. If this match would have been done right and had Sting win clean over Hogan, WCW would have won that war. This was the biggest main event in WCW history and if they would have done it right WWF would have died. Plain and simple. Sting was the hottest thing in wrestling at the time, this was before Austin took full flight and dominated. This match being done right could have stopped the Attitude era by taking all those viewers before Stone Cold and Rock could capture their imaginations. The effects of this match may not have been felt the night after, but this match being booked for Sting going over Hogan clean would have been more than huge for WCW, it could have very well won the war. Instead they booked Hogan over Sting and started the downfall of WCW.

    The "Fingerpoke of Doom" was past stupid aswell, but WCW was already trending down by the time it happened, thanks to the poor booking of the Starrcade 97 match. Beisdes fi the Starrcade match would have been booked correctly, the Fingerpoke would have never happened. Obviously we all know that there are a few more factors to why WCW was bought out by the WWF, but the Starrcade match started this fall and was the biggest blunder in the business.
     
  5. Big Nick Dudley

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    I agree with just about everything you have said here. This main event was poorly handled, no question. There was no reason for Hogan to go over in this match. This should have been the place and time where Sting and WCW took back control of their programming.

    But Hogan's ego got in the way. He and his creative control clause basically ruined the finish to this PPV.

    But that doesn't mean it was worse for WCW than the Fingerpoke of Doom debacle.

    I think saying Sting beating Hogan at Starrcade would have ended the war is a bit presumptuous:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WWE Raw is War Ratings (via: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm ):

    October 6, 1997 3.0
    October 13, 1997 2.3
    October 20, 1997 2.9
    October 27, 1997 2.3
    November 3, 1997 2.6
    November 10, 1997 3.4
    November 17, 1997 3.1
    November 24, 1997 3.0
    December 1, 1997 3.0
    December 8, 1997 3.0
    December 15, 1997 2.7
    December 22, 1997 3.1
    December 29, 1997 3.6

    WCW Monday Nitro Ratings (via: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wcw/wcwnitro.htm ):

    October 6, 1997 3.9
    October 13, 1997 3.8
    October 20, 1997 4.6
    October 27, 1997 4.3
    November 3, 1997 4.0
    November 10, 1997 4.3
    November 17, 1997 4.1
    November 24, 1997 3.9
    December 1, 1997 3.8
    December 8, 1997 4.3
    December 15, 1997 4.1
    December 22, 1997 3.5
    December 29, 1997 4.6
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    WWF PPV Buyrates (via: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm )

    Survivor Series 1997: 0.89

    WCW PPV Buyrates (via: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wcw/wcwppvbr.htm )

    World War III, 1997: 0.56
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As you can see, in the months prior to Starrcade 97, WWF and WCW were somewhat close in terms of the Monday Night ratings war. WCW was in firm control, but WWF never dipped below a 2.3 rating. They were down, but not even close to out.

    But the more telling number is the PPV buyrate from the month prior. WCW only drew a 0.56 for World War III (their version of the Royal Rumble). WWF, on the other hand, stomped them by drawing a 0.89 buyrate for Survivor Series. WWF did well for most of 1997 against WCW in terms of PPV buys. WCW wasn't very good at selling their PPV's, and that alone would have given WWF enough breathing room to survive a more-than-average Starrcade.


    Austin wasn't just on his way up, he was traveling at light speed. Remember, Wrestlemania 14 was just a few months after Starrcade. Austin finally winning the strap was huge for WWF, and they began to kick some serious ass in the ratings after Wrestlemania 14 (starting in April of 1998, WWF didn't drop below a 4.0 again for the rest of the year). Did they kick WCW's ass? No. But it was more about what the WWF was doing right, as opposed to what WCW was doing wrong. WWF was far from being dead, and I think the same would stand true even if WCW not botched the Sting/Hogan main event at Starrcade 1997.

    Starrcade was a poorly booked event, I've given you that. But The Fingerpoke of Doom incident was more than that; it was a disgrace.

    Not only did most of WCW ppv's take huge buyrate hits after that, fans knew WCW couldn't care less about the prestige of their titles. Having Hulk Hogan win the title in that manner was disgusting. They advertised a huge main event (Goldberg/Nash, the rematch), and then basically gave every fan the middle finger. What did we get instead? A garbage match, not even worth being called a match.

    WCW, as usual, put storyline way, way ahead of actual wrestling. I think putting storyline first can be good in the long term, but not every week, during every segment of your show. Fans saw this happening after Starrcade 1997, but were a bit more patient than you are letting on. It looked as though Sting was going to have to wait just one more PPV to get his hands on that title, and that's what happened. Sting beat Hogan more than Hogan beat Sting (Hogan didn't pin Sting at all during this time period), so I doubt fans were as upset about this as you are leading us to believe.

    The Fingerpoke of Doom happened later on, and took place at almost a breaking point for fans. The audience was sick and tired of WCW and their same old tricks. It was a year later, and nothing had changed. The nWo was still in control, that angle had been beaten to death.

    Starrcade was bad, but nowhere near as damaging as The Fingerpoke of Doom. There were a lot more people watching Nitro on January 4th, 1999 than there were watching Starrcade on December 28th, 1997. WCW was on top...until the Fingerpoke of Doom happened.
     
  6. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    The way I see it, it was worse. The Fingerpoke was just an episode of Nitro that looked horrible on free TV. The Starrcade match was the biggest match in WCW that year and arguably the biggest match in WCW history. I give the Fingerpoke episode credit for being a shit ending and pissing people off about it, but the Starrcade match was the highlight of the year that people had to pay for, not only did the ending rub people the wrong way about WCW but the shift of power started to sway to the WWF. Had this main event went the other way and Sting had won, the praise for this would have been huge. It was the biggest thing in wrestling and had everyone's attention. If you book Sting to win that match people are going to sway towards WCW and that would have been huge.

    You're right it is quite a bold statement, and even if that match would have went the right way and WCW still made the other decisions they made I have no doubt that it would still be dead. Thing is If Starrcade would have ended with Sting on top and the nWo dead that would have only been good for the company and would have saved a few other blunders from happening, like the Fingerpoke. No nWo, no Fingerpoke of Doom.

    As for World War III, it wasn't really a great PPV to begin with, it was a cheap rip off of the Royal Rumble and going up against one of the WWF's Big 4 PPVs you can't really expect to be blown out of the water by the numbers.

    http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wcw/wcwppvbr.htm

    http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm

    You can also see that Halloween Havoc, the PPV before World War 3 drew a 1.10 and the PPV after, our PPV in question Starrcade 97 drew a 1.90, you compare that to WrestleMania drawing a .77 that year an we see just how much WCW was winning that war at the time.[/QUOTE]


    I'm not so sure about that, but even if they wouldn't have been winning the war, they wouldn't have been left reeling after that disaster of an ending. Sting and Austin were the two hottest things in wrestling in 1998, had Sting had the momentum of taking out Hogan and the nWo and being the WCW Champion in 98 it sure wouldn't have hurt WCW.



    No doubt.
    All this started before the Fingerpoke though. The booking of the Starrcade match was just as bad, the only thing that makes your finish worse is that there wasn't any actual wrestling. As bullshit as the Fingerpoke was it still made sense, Nash and Hogan showed that the nWo was still intact and that Hogan was still top dog. It wasn;t built for over a year intriguing all the fans cheering for Sting to take down the nWo.

    I know I was more pissed about the Starrcade match when I was a kid, I watched Nitro that night after Starrcade and was so pissed that Sting didn't win that I didn't watch Nitro for a few weeks. It also wasn't just about Sting winning the title, the build was for the biggest PPV for WCW, the biggest match in that promotion's history, and it's saviour Sting taking out the bad guys that are trying to take over WCW and ruin it. Every mark hated it, and years later the smarks hate it too. In doing research on this I came across numerous comments about this being the worse booking in history, but this is hind sight. The thing isn't so much about this match being the final nail in the coffin, but the life it would have given WCW.

    I jsut addressed this, but I'll say it again, the Fingerpoke was the final nail in the coffin, but it wouldn't have even happened had the nWo been disbanded by Sting winning the Starrcade match. For me it's the missed opportunity with the Starrcade match that makes it the worst moment in WCW history.
     
    Big Nick Dudley likes this.
  7. Big Nick Dudley

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    Yes, an episode of Nitro that drew a hell of a lot more fans than Starrcade did. Far more people were actually able to witness the debacle known as the Fingerpoke of Doom than did Starrcade 1997.

    People were already getting sick of the nWo/WCW thing by this time, and no, the ending of Starrcade did not help. But you are exaggerating just a tad. The real turning point in the Monday Night War came on the night of the Fingerpoke of Doom. It's a fact. WWF never lost a one-on-one ratings battle again.

    It was a crap ending, but it wasn't as bad as you are making it sound. At least this had a real match that happened before the terrible finish. The Fingerpoke of Doom incident was just that..an incident. First, as I have said before, WCW didn't even promote the main event they ran. Goldberg wasn't even in the match, in Atlanta, which basically served as his and WCW's hometown at the time! Instead, you got Nash and Hogan. Even if that match had gone through, it would have been complete trash. Nash had said some himself.

    That match on Nitro was a disgrace. An absolute disgrace. It disgraced both wrestlers involved, and the title that was on the line. There is no defense for what happened that night. Starrcade had a poorly written ending, but it wasn't an intentional sham like The Fingerpoke of Doom incident. At least WCW put forth an honest effort with Sting/Hogan, as opposed to copping out like they did with Nash/Hogan.

    That's a strong opinion, but it's just that; an opinion. We have no clue how the rest of the angle would have gone had Sting beat Hogan clean.

    And how do we know a dead nWo would have been good for WCW? Sure, the angle had been beaten to death. But in all honesty, the nWo was the only successful, mainstream angle WCW ever put together. Who's to say they wouldn't have folded even earlier had they killed the nWo at Starrcade 1997.


    I guess we'll never know, seeing that didn't happen.


    Actually, in the months leading up to this segment, the nWo was split into two different factions; nWo Hollywood, and the Wolfpac. This angle was not only poorly executed, it made no sense at all. They had just battled for months, and now this? It was a shit angle, with an even worse outcome on Nitro. So no, it actually made zero sense.

    And as bad as the Starrcade debacle was, Sting won the title two months later (the title wasn't up for grabs the next month at Souled Out). It's not like that was the end of the storyline, they just stretched it out, and Superbrawl 1998 drew a 1.10 buy rate, which was pretty damn good. So Starrcade didn't do nearly as much damage as you would have us believe.


    I can't agree with you, because as I said before, we cannot say with any certainty what would have happened had Sting won the belt. Is it possible what you're saying could have actually taken place had things gone differently at Starrcade? Sure, but I doubt we can know what would have happened. WCW may have reached even greater heights, or they may have fallen flat right then and there without the nWo.
    ================================================================

    Closing Argument​



    WCW did quite well for themselves after the introduction of the nWo in 1996. They were cutting edge, and brought a sense of realism to professional wrestling, something it was definitely lacking. They did the unthinkable by actually competing with WWF on a mainstream level.

    But when you have a collective ego that is larger than your intelligence level, you tend to fail. And I believe that is the main reason WCW failed. It sure wasn't for a lack of big-name talent, even if most of them were over the hill.

    At Starrcade 1997, WCW was looking to make a name for itself, with mainstream America. It was already on it's way there, but this was needed to give it a major push to that next level. The ending was botched, I think we can all understand that. But it was botched because of uncertainty, not just due to ego.

    WCW had rested every hope they had in the nWo. I'm not saying that was wise, but it's true. The nWo is what drew fans. WCW had tried and failed several times with basic wrestling, and knew only mainstream success after the introduction of the New World Order. WCW wanted/needed to drag the storyline with Hogan and Sting out as long as possible. If Sting had destroyed the nWo at Starrcade, there was no way of knowing if fans would have wanted to see anything else they had to offer.

    Eventually Sting won the title (and lost it). Did WCW take the nWo too far? Yes, most definitely. But Starrcade 1997 was probably not the time to destroy it.

    By January 4th, 1999, the nWo was completely played out. There was nothing left, yet WCW kept beating the absolute shit out of the already dead (and rotting) horse. Fans had stuck around, in great numbers, long after Starrcade 1997. But they were ready for something new.

    The feud between Nash and Goldberg was something new. It wasn't nearly as nWo-based as the WCW WHC feuds had been over the last 2 1/2 years, and it included WCW's biggest face (Goldberg). Goldberg was to WCW what Sting was at Starrcade 1997, but bigger.

    Leaving him out of that match on Nitro was idiotic. It was advertised, and was probably WCW's biggest match in the history of Nitro. But ego took over. Hogan and Nash didn't want to give up the spotlight, no matter how much it hurt WCW. Goldberg was the closest thing in the world to Steve Austin in terms of popularity. So what did WCW do with that? They basically sunk him in front of millions of people on live television.

    WCW then proceeded to make a complete mockery of it's own main event. The two men involved, Hogan having replaced Goldberg, didn't even wrestle! The title changed hands via a freakin' fingerpoke to the chest!

    It was worse for the company than Starrcade was, and it was worse for wrestling in general. It was a total disgrace, and anyone involved should be ashamed. Fans never again chose WCW over WWF. WCW had built a strong fan base, who was obviously willing to follow them through the flames. Starrcade was bad, but it didn't hurt WCW as much as my opponent would have you believe.

    WCW shot themselves in the foot many, many times. But the Fingerpoke of Doom was more like a shotgun blast to the head. It totally turned off the millions of people watching, and the evidence is there to back it up. Look at the ratings.

    The point I'm trying to make here is quite simple. WCW didn't do very well with the Sting/Hogan thing, but it wasn't a disgrace, and fans (as proven by ratings) didn't think so either. The Fingerpoke of Doom, mixed with another huge blunder that night, made fans flip the switch (literally). They turned the channel, and some never looked back. Starrcade didn't come off well, but it was a whole hell of a lot better received than the trash WCW put out on January 4th, 1999.
     
  8. Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra

    Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra Kinda Sorta Old School

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    Closing Arguement
    In closing I'd like to give you an overview of why I chose my side and the reason it was the worse moment in WCW history.

    I chose the Starrcade 97 match over the Fingerpoke of Doom, not because it was the most disgusting thing in WCW history like the Fingerpoke, but because of the good that would have came if they wouldn't have had Hogan go over Sting clean.

    Had Sting won that match I firmly believe that WCW would have been open alot longer than it was. Sure WCW made alot more mistakes after the Starrcade match, but they didn't learn their lesson with the botch of the Starrcade match going bad, but maybe if it would have went the other way WCW would have woken up and realized how to run a company as opposed to ruin it. Sting was the major babyface in wrestling at the time and wrestling fans needed someone to cheer for, Sting would have been that man since Austin hadn't hit his stride yet. Who knows, maybe if the Starrcade match didn't get botched people cheer for Sting and don't switch over to see Austin whipping Vince's ass week in and week out.

    The reality is there was a complete other way to do this match and everyone knew they went the wrong way, they squashed all the huge momentum Sting had built for over a year buliding to what should have been his crowning moment. He should have beaten Hogan at the biggest PPV in WCW on his first try, killing the nWo. Sting would have become the hottest thing in wrestling and kept fans as opposed to turning some away.

    Finally had the Starrcade match went the other way the Fingerpoke wouldn't have even happened, Sting winning that match would have put the nWo to rest. So that would make the Starrcade 97 match the worse of the two because had it been done the right way it would have prevented alot of other bad things from happening in WCW, including my opponent's choice the Fingerpoke of Doom.​
     
  9. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Cant fault either guy on this, both had opening arguments and closing arguments and good clear posts.

    Point - Split

    Punctuality: Both guys were on time with their posts I think, so it's another split

    Point - Split

    Informative: Nicks use of ratings was well done, it helped him get across the actual damage the fingerpoke seemed to do for ratings.

    Point - Nickb03

    Persuasion: Tough one, Nick got across the point of the fingerpokes almost immediate impact, whereas Blue's argument that Starcade was the very start to the long decline that would lead the fingerpoke was very convincing too. As much as I hate scoring this category with a draw, and I really do, to me at least it was

    Point - Draw

    My Scores;
    Nickb03 - 3
    Blue Cardinal - 2
     
  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity: nickb03 had the more better of the two opening arguments.

    Point: nickb03

    Punctuality: nickb03 was late on a few occasions.

    Point: Blue Cardinal

    Informative: Look at what Miko said already.

    Point: nickb03

    Persuasion: Good use of information and a solid opening argument from nickb03, but solid rebuttals from Blue Cardinal. Points get split.

    Points: Split

    Final Score

    nickb03: 3
    Blue Cardinal: 2
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: nickb03
    Much better laid out and superb understanding, not to take away from Blue Cardinal here.

    Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
    nickb03 was late at one point.

    Informative: nickb03
    Used his information superbly and didn't rely on links expecting us to click them, he presented the information to us.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    Nick took this debated and choked it out with a superb display here, Blue Cardinal well but he couldn't claw his way back once nick started posting, while he raised good points, nick kept me in his court.

    Final Score
    Blue Cardinal: 1
    nickb03: 4
     
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity of debate: Split
    I think both guys did a great job here.

    Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
    nickb03 was late on a post.

    Informative: Split
    Once again, I think both guys did a very good job here.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    I think nick put up a superb argument and although it was a close race, I think Blue Cardinal fell short. Barely, but short nonetheless.

    Final Score:
    nickb03: 3
    Blue Cardinal: 2
     
  13. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, nickb03 is the victor with 13 points to Blue Cardinal's 7.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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