Round 3: Riaku v nickb03

[D-Man]

Will Rey Mysterio always be known as the undeserving World Champion?

This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Riaku is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[ABMorales787]

I choose to go second on the subject that Rey Mysterio isn't always known as an undeserving World Champion. Good luck to Nickb03

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Opening Argument

Will Rey Mysterio always be known as the undeserving World Champion?

This is a good question, and it's something that has always interested me.

When Rey Mysterio came onto the U.S. wrestling scene (after a short time in ECW) back in 1996 with WCW, this guy was more than exciting. He was something new, something I hadn't really seen before. The way he moved in the ring was not something I was really all that familiar with, having been a fan of WCW and WWF most of my life, where such wrestling was somewhat rare.

Mysterio, while small, had a ring presence. He was absolutely perfect to lead the Cruiserweight division in WCW. Those guys brought something fresh to the table, almost an alternative to what was on Nitro week in and week out. In the summer of 1996, the nWo was WCW's biggest storyline, but moving through the fall, the Cruiserweight division was easily the most exciting action WCW had going (in the ring). And Rey Mysterio was head of the class.

Mysterio's Cruiserweight dominance basically lasted during his entire run in WCW. While he may not have held the title all of the time, it was easy to see he was the face of the division.

When Rey debuted in 2002, I was hoping WWE would do something special with the Cruiserweight championship. Mysterio is physically built for that type of division, and had the popularity to carry it. I felt WWE had an opportunity to take the Cruiserweight title to the next level, and make it as popular as the Intercontinental or U.S. championship. But that never happened.

The reason I talk so much about the Cruiserweight championship is due to the fact I believe that is where Mysterio is used best. I have never bought into Rey Mysterio as being able to "hang with the big boys," and I think he is totally undeserving in holding a Heavyweight Championship.

Reasons Why I Feel Rey Isn't Deserving

I know undeserving is a bit harsh, but that's how I feel. He's 5'-6" tall, 175 lbs. He has no business taking down guys twice his size, or larger. It makes them look weak. Now don't get me wrong, I like Mysterio...as a Cruiserweight. His style is best suited to wrestling men closer to his size. When he pins much larger opponents, it doesn't make him look as strong as it makes those men look weak.

Another reason I have always believed Rey to be undeserving of a Worlds Heavyweight Championship was how he managed to gain his first title. He rode the wave of emotion following the death of Eddie Guerrero. I'm not saying Rey was in any way malicious in what he did, but it never sat well with me.

I think the WWE knew it would be very difficult to get Rey over as a believable World's Champion. They needed the fans support for Rey, and used a tragedy to get it. They needed it to be emotional, because if using logic, no one would buy into Mysterio as the WHC.

I understand using the term undeserving may turn some people off. I believe Rey has earned a career in professional wrestling, several times over. He is totally deserving of his job and his popularity, just not a Heavyweight Championship. The WWE used a tragedy to get this man to the top, to (in my opinion) capitalize on his Latino heritage. They saw how popular Eddie had been with that segment of the audience, and believed Rey to be a good replacement. And they were right. He has been the biggest draw, maybe in WWE history, with the Latino portion of the crowd. But that doesn't mean he is deserving of the Heavyweight Championships he has held.

Personally, I have not enjoyed Rey Mysterio's WHC title runs. I cannot buy into him as the "Giant Killer" who can take down mountains. It just doesn't work. You can use the David vs. Goliath thing as many times as you want, but it doesn't mean I (or anyone else) have to buy into it.

In short, I do not dislike Rey. He's done more for fast-paced, high-flying little guys in the wrestling business than maybe anyone else in history. But that does not mean he should be a Heavyweight Champion. He isn't a heavyweight, plain and simple. He isn't believable, due to his size. He makes larger men look weak, and he wouldn't be in the main-event position he's in had Eddie Guerrero not passed away. In my opinion, Rey Mysterio will always be viewed as an undeserving Heavyweight Champion by the majority of wrestling fans.

 

[ABMorales787]

For my opening argument, I believe Rey is a deserving World Champion. There are many reasons that make me believe that. But first, I think we should define what an "undeserving World Champion" is. To me an undeserving champion would be a wrestler who offers nothing to the main event field or a guy who hasn't worked enough to achieve that level. A guy like Kevin Nash or Sheamus can be argued as "undeserving". The reason being because both men got to the top first and then developed from there. They got to their point due to backstage politics. Yes they would become great, but they didn't follow the natural character development nature that pro wrestling tends to dictate. Another example of an "undeserving World Champion" in my eyes would be Jack Swagger. He was undeveloped and inexperienced at his time and as a result wasn't even featured at the PPV following his rematch loss. To me, these people are examples of what I see as an "undeserving World Champion". Now on to Rey.

Rey Mysterio as of today is a 20 year veteran, wrestling since he was 15 in Mexico. When he came to the U.S. he brought an entire new concept to pro wrestling. The High Flying Mexican style. In WCW, he along with the likes of La Parka, Juventud Guerrera, Psicosis, Eddie Guerrero and others re-defined American Pro Wrestling, WCW and the Monday Night Wars. Rey Mysterio is 186 pounds and only stands at 5 '6. I'm taller and heavier than him by a long shot. I'm also taller and heavier than Kurt Angle. Doesn't mean I'm better than either one. But that's just a cheap comparison. Over the years, it's been well known that a World Champion, in essence is the guy who at the time, can draw the most. Weither it's heat, a pop, merch sales, PPV interest, rating or otherwise. Rey Mysterio, from day one in the WWE has garnered the interest of kids. Kids see him as somewhat of a superhero as he "overcomes adversity" and can fly. Sorta. Essentially, he draws. We see it every day. Kids buy his masks like they were candy. That's good for business. So why keep him don't in the mid-card? It's not like he can have a bad match. One good feature to him is he's a terrific wrestler. In spite of his size, he's a guy who doesn't miss much when in the ring.

One of the few things people like to pick at is his size and how he doesn't look legit fighting big guys. Why? Because he's not 6 feet and 220 pounds? To some, it seems legit when a guy like Stone Cold Steve Austin does it. He may be bigger, but he's nowhere near as athletic or technical. He doesn''t win by the conventional mean of directly attacking the opponent until he's weak enough for a finish. He surprises them. Check this performance by Rey as he matches the overwhelming strength of Brock Lesnar with his speed. Until Big Show gets involved...

Spoiler

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To close my opening argument, I should also address the main reason people say he' never looked legit. His "Cinderella Story" and "I did it for Eddie" title reign. His first of two (currently). In 2005 he was embroiled in a huge feud with Eddie Guerrero that got extremely personal. Following that feud Eddie was scheduled to become World Champion for a second time, but fate had another plan. At the same time, Rey began feuding with JBL. A former World Champion who was at the time placed on the upper-mid-card of the roster. Following Eddie's death, Rey's emotions seemed to garner the crowds support. Meanwhile Batista also was filled with emotion. So Rey carried on Eddie's story at the time of feuding with Raw World Tag Team Champions and MNM. Resulting in winning the WWE Tag Team Championships originally slated for Eddie. WWE saw the reaction and realized that Rey was drawing big numbers at the time. At the time, Batista was injured as well. Leaving a gaping hole in Smackdown's main event scene. So WWE did the most profitable thing. Book Rey as World Champion via Wrestlemania. And used Eddie's namesake to continue drawing more. he wasn't booked too well as World Champion as WWE had a knack for slapping him with big guys who had no business in the main event as opposed to guys like Kurt Angle, Randy Orton or The Undertaker. Men Rey has shown he can work well with. But WWE saw it differently. Just because he wasn't booked properly, does not mean he wasn't deserving of his title. He worked hard, he draw merch sales and during the early part of his run delivered great matches. All this in spite of his size.

I know undeserving is a bit harsh, but that's how I feel. He's 5'-6" tall, 175 lbs. He has no business taking down guys twice his size, or larger. It makes them look weak. Now don't get me wrong, I like Mysterio...as a Cruiserweight. His style is best suited to wrestling men closer to his size. When he pins much larger opponents, it doesn't make him look as strong as it makes those men look weak.

Chris Jericho, Edge, John Cena, Randy Orton and Kurt Angle are former World Champions. All of which Rey has faced before. None are above 6'5 or 250 pounds. Yet when they wrestle Rey a good legit match can be seen. These are the most predominant main event guys in wrestling today.With the exception of Edge, they have all lost to Rey Mysterio at one point. Nobody was discredited by losing to him. As a matter of fact, his feud with Chris Jericho would be one of the best feuds of last year and the overall decade.

Another reason I have always believed Rey to be undeserving of a Worlds Heavyweight Championship was how he managed to gain his first title. He rode the wave of emotion following the death of Eddie Guerrero. I'm not saying Rey was in any way malicious in what he did, but it never sat well with me.

I think the WWE knew it would be very difficult to get Rey over as a believable World's Champion. They needed the fans support for Rey, and used a tragedy to get it. They needed it to be emotional, because if using logic, no one would buy into Mysterio as the WHC.

That seems more like an opinion than a reason. Like I said, he was driving merch sales with his masks. Then people related him to Eddie. So now add Eddie Guerrero memorabilia to his merch sale rep. Add the lack of Batista. Smackdown needed a bridge while he recovered and Kurt Angle wasn't gonna last forever. It was the best otion at the time.

I understand using the term undeserving may turn some people off. I believe Rey has earned a career in professional wrestling, several times over. He is totally deserving of his job and his popularity, just not a Heavyweight Championship. The WWE used a tragedy to get this man to the top, to (in my opinion) capitalize on his Latino heritage. They saw how popular Eddie had been with that segment of the audience, and believed Rey to be a good replacement. And they were right. He has been the biggest draw, maybe in WWE history, with the Latino portion of the crowd. But that doesn't mean he is deserving of the Heavyweight Championships he has held.

Drawing equals, revenue, ratings, merch sales and PPV buys. Capitalizing on Eddie's death was to many a tribute. Not only that, but Rey won the championship again not too long ago. He not only draws with latino's but with children as well. WWE's focal point for a while now.

Personally, I have not enjoyed Rey Mysterio's WHC title runs. I cannot buy into him as the "Giant Killer" who can take down mountains. It just doesn't work. You can use the David vs. Goliath thing as many times as you want, but it doesn't mean I (or anyone else) have to buy into it.

You don't have to buy into it. Buy the PPV and the mask.

In short, I do not dislike Rey. He's done more for fast-paced, high-flying little guys in the wrestling business than maybe anyone else in history. But that does not mean he should be a Heavyweight Champion. He isn't a heavyweight, plain and simple. He isn't believable, due to his size. He makes larger men look weak, and he wouldn't be in the main-event position he's in had Eddie Guerrero not passed away. In my opinion, Rey Mysterio will always be viewed as an undeserving Heavyweight Champion by the majority of wrestling fans.

Yet when guys slightly taller than him, like Chris Jericho or AJ Styles do, it does? Size does matter, but so does agility and athleticism. And in the field of pro wrestling, drawing power. Something Rey has a lot of.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]One of the few things people like to pick at is his size and how he doesn't look legit fighting big guys. Why? Because he's not 6 feet and 220 pounds?[/QUOTE]

Actually, yes. In some cases, it just isn't believable. It's difficult to buy into Rey having the physical ability to hurt the Big Show, at all, short of Rey hitting him in the face with a baseball bat.

And, let's not forget that Rey is not a heavyweight. He doesn't belong to that weight class, yet holds the title?

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]To some, it seems legit when a guy like Stone Cold Steve Austin does it.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you asking why Steve Austin is more believable beating on a larger guy? Maybe because he's 8 inches taller and 75 lbs. heavier. He also uses moves with much more power behind them, that are actually capable of doing a good amount of damage. Rey does not have that ability, on larger men.

Also, Rey is not a brawler. If it comes to a fist fight, we have all seen time and time again that Rey is overmatched buy just about anyone (besides Hornswaggle).

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]He may be bigger, but he's nowhere near as athletic or technical. He doesn''t win by the conventional mean of directly attacking the opponent until he's weak enough for a finish. He surprises them.[/QUOTE]

He is not as fast, but let's not make Rey out to be Bret Hart. He's quick, and performs stunts well. He isn't very technical. Skilled at what he does, yes. Technical, no.

Of course Rey doesn't win by conventional means, he can't. He cannot stand up to most of these guys in a fight. It's just common sense stuff. He doesn't belong in the heavyweight division. He's very talented at what he does, but he's much better against men closer to his own size. He puts on much better matches with those kinds of guys.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]He worked hard, he draw merch sales and during the early part of his run delivered great matches. All this in spite of his size.[/QUOTE]

I have never criticized Rey Mysterio's work ethic, never. The man busts his ass night in and night out. But, that does not mean I (or anyone else) have to accept him as a heavyweight contender, and/or champion. He has delivered great matches, but not with men of great size and strength.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]Chris Jericho, Edge, John Cena, Randy Orton and Kurt Angle are former World Champions. All of which Rey has faced before. None are above 6'5 or 250 pounds.[/QUOTE]

You don't have to be the Big Show or The Undertaker to overshadow Rey Mysterio. All of those guys have plenty of inches, pounds and muscle over Rey.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]That seems more like an opinion than a reason.[/QUOTE]

It is an opinion, absolutely. An opinion I have read time and time again, even on this very forum, shared by many wrestling fans.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]Like I said, he was driving merch sales with his masks. Then people related him to Eddie. So now add Eddie Guerrero memorabilia to his merch sale rep. Add the lack of Batista. Smackdown needed a bridge while he recovered and Kurt Angle wasn't gonna last forever. It was the best otion at the time.[/QUOTE]

That's all fine, well and great. But that doesn't mean a 175 lb. man deserves to be a World Heavyweight Champion.

If WWE would have built up their Cruiserweight Division, made it something of substance, they wouldn't have had to put the WHC on Rey. Rey sells merchandise with or without the title. As you said earlier, kids love him, probably because they can relate to him. He's very popular with the Latino portion of the audience. But none of this proves he should be holding a heavyweight title. Rey, with the WWE's platform, could have turned the Cruiserweight Division into something special, possibly surpassing the IC or U.S. title.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2335651]Yet when guys slightly taller than him, like Chris Jericho or AJ Styles do, it does? Size does matter, but so does agility and athleticism. And in the field of pro wrestling, drawing power. Something Rey has a lot of.[/QUOTE]

I don't recall AJ winning anything in the WWE, and Chris Jericho is billed as six inches taller and fifty pounds heavier.

In the drawing department, Rey's a no-brainer. But he's a massive draw with or without the WHC. The man has drawn before and after being a WHC, so I really don't see it as being crucial for Rey to hold the title.

But in the ring, I don't care how quick he is, he just isn't big enough. I'm not alone in feeling this way. The guy is limited in the feuds he can have.

Sure, against guys like Jericho and CM Punk, Rey can get away with being so small. But how about his feud with the Undertaker at this year's Royal Rumble? You are honestly going to tell me he could hold the WHC and feud with Taker? He can challenge for it, and lose, but I don't think he could defend it well against men of that size. Guys like Kane (who he lost it to), Taker, Big Show, Sheamus, Cena, etc. Those guys are so big, and so powerful, it is not even close to believable that he can pin and/or submit any of them. Sure, he's done it before, and it wasn't believable then either.

When wrestling big guy, Rey is far too limited in what he can do. Against smaller guys, guys similar in size and style, Rey is almost limitless. I'm not anti-Rey, not at all. But I understand why many people are totally opposed to a man that small competing for, and holding, a Worlds Heavyweight championship.

 

[ABMorales787]

Actually, yes. In some cases, it just isn't believable. It's difficult to buy into Rey having the physical ability to hurt the Big Show, at all, short of Rey hitting him in the face with a baseball bat.

So you're telling me that if Rey kicks a 500 pound, 7 foot guy, who has had many knee problems, it would do nothing? A person, no matter the size becomes unbalanced when you push the back of his or her knee. Try it. Poke someone there. Chances are the person loses balance with ease and will probably fall down. It might sound like "Kung Fu Movie" crap, but it's real. A man of that weight and height cannot take that kind punishment to the body part that keeps him standing. Yes, Rey has the physical ability to hurt a guy like the Big Show. And he has the agility to dodge him too.

And, let's not forget that Rey is not a heavyweight. He doesn't belong to that weight class, yet holds the title?

This isn't MMA, Boxing or amateur wrestling. It's pro wrestling. The objective is to draw money, rating and sell tickets and merch. Not look like a real sport. That stopped being the case since 1984.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you asking why Steve Austin is more believable beating on a larger guy? Maybe because he's 8 inches taller and 75 lbs. heavier. He also uses moves with much more power behind them, that are actually capable of doing a good amount of damage. Rey does not have that ability, on larger men.

Austin punches and delivers the Stunner. That's it. Rey however has a large variety of offense and can come from any angle with his speed. Yes Austin is heavier and taller. his height does nothing to make him any stronger or faster than Rey. And his weight does not add more force behind his strikes.

Also, Rey is not a brawler. If it comes to a fist fight, we have all seen time and time again that Rey is overmatched buy just about anyone (besides Hornswaggle).

Then his speed comes into play. The bigger the guy, the slower and faster to exhaust. The smaller the guy, the more physical Rey can get.

He is not as fast, but let's not make Rey out to be Bret Hart. He's quick, and performs stunts well. He isn't very technical. Skilled at what he does, yes. Technical, no.

Of course Rey doesn't win by conventional means, he can't. He cannot stand up to most of these guys in a fight. It's just common sense stuff. He doesn't belong in the heavyweight division. He's very talented at what he does, but he's much better against men closer to his own size. He puts on much better matches with those kinds of guys.

I have never criticized Rey Mysterio's work ethic, never. The man busts his ass night in and night out. But, that does not mean I (or anyone else) have to accept him as a heavyweight contender, and/or champion. He has delivered great matches, but not with men of great size and strength.

[youtube]qyRLq3Jve94&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]3czMfn8FAxg[/youtube]

Two great matches featuring Rey Mysterio against a larger man. Funny note. You say Rey can't hurt big guys yet on the last 2 occasions Undertaker faced Rey, he's gotten injured. The second time put him out of action.

You don't have to be the Big Show or The Undertaker to overshadow Rey Mysterio. All of those guys have plenty of inches, pounds and muscle over Rey.

Big Show, Undertaker and Kane overshadow almost the entire WWE roster. Yet they lose pretty frequently. Kane and Big Show at least.

That's all fine, well and great. But that doesn't mean a 175 lb. man deserves to be a World Heavyweight Champion.

This is taken from WikiAnswers.com:

Who was the lightest world heavyweight boxing champion?


- Bob Fitzsimmons was only 167 pounds when he won the title in 1897 against James J. Corbett.

And boxing is a legit sport.

If WWE would have built up their Cruiserweight Division, made it something of substance, they wouldn't have had to put the WHC on Rey. Rey sells merchandise with or without the title. As you said earlier, kids love him, probably because they can relate to him. He's very popular with the Latino portion of the audience. But none of this proves he should be holding a heavyweight title. Rey, with the WWE's platform, could have turned the Cruiserweight Division into something special, possibly surpassing the IC or U.S. title.

He didn't have the means to elevate that division. No creative interest, no proper competition. he wasn't gonna do it by himself. He was the highlight of the division from 2003 to 2004. He proved he was too big for it. As for the US and IC scene, I think he proved he was pretty big for it too just last year.

In the drawing department, Rey's a no-brainer. But he's a massive draw with or without the WHC. The man has drawn before and after being a WHC, so I really don't see it as being crucial for Rey to hold the title.

In both occasions Smackdown required him. In 2006, Batista was injured and Kurt was not gonna have an 8 month run. In 2010, The Undertaker was injured when he was slated to win. They needed the belt off Jack Swagger in a hurry. Giving it to Big Show would've probably been a much less viable choice.

But in the ring, I don't care how quick he is, he just isn't big enough. I'm not alone in feeling this way. The guy is limited in the feuds he can have.

Chris Jericho, Edge, Batista, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerrero, CM Punk, Matt Hardy, Dean Malenko, Randy Orton, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, etc. Great feuds Rey's had. I could go on and mention more.

Sure, against guys like Jericho and CM Punk, Rey can get away with being so small. But how about his feud with the Undertaker at this year's Royal Rumble? You are honestly going to tell me he could hold the WHC and feud with Taker? He can challenge for it, and lose, but I don't think he could defend it well against men of that size. Guys like Kane (who he lost it to), Taker, Big Show, Sheamus, Cena, etc. Those guys are so big, and so powerful, it is not even close to believable that he can pin and/or submit any of them. Sure, he's done it before, and it wasn't believable then either.

When wrestling big guy, Rey is far too limited in what he can do. Against smaller guys, guys similar in size and style, Rey is almost limitless. I'm not anti-Rey, not at all. But I understand why many people are totally opposed to a man that small competing for, and holding, a Worlds Heavyweight championship.

First off, Rey does not have to win. He has never beaten the Big Show. WWE keeps the realism there. He can perform with the likes of Kane, Undertaker and yes even Big Show without it looking like a side show.
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He keeps Mark down for long periods of time here by outmaneuvering him into a vulnerable position an attacking from there. Not to mention the crowd eats up every bit of Rey's offense. Yes, the 619 is very annoying when set up, but it's not what he pins his opponents with. A good showing by Rey and Mark.

[youtube]LHEAcTYrjvg&feature=related[/youtube]
This one is a similar showing with a better outcome.

Like I said, Rey is a deserving World Champion. A lack of size against a slew of his opponents does not hinder his performance in the ring or his opponents.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]So you're telling me that if Rey kicks a 500 pound, 7 foot guy, who has had many knee problems, it would do nothing?[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Big Shows leg probably weighs as much as Rey does..as a whole. Big Show is a foot and a half taller, and outweighs Rey by 325 lbs. This match may have been booked as a possible win for Rey in the past, but that doesn't mean it is in any way, shape or form believable.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]A person, no matter the size becomes unbalanced when you push the back of his or her knee. Try it. Poke someone there. Chances are the person loses balance with ease and will probably fall down. It might sound like "Kung Fu Movie" crap, but it's real. A man of that weight and height cannot take that kind punishment to the body part that keeps him standing. Yes, Rey has the physical ability to hurt a guy like the Big Show. And he has the agility to dodge him too.[/QUOTE]

He also has the ability to be knocked into next week by one shot from Big Show. Same goes for Taker, Kane, Mark Henry, or that bum Mike Knox he used to feud with. For the sake of argument, I'll give you that Rey has the ability to hurt these men. With a lot of time, and skill, he can do some damage. But any one of those men has the ability, at any time, to take Rey out with only a few simple moves, and I don't think that's up for debate. Rey just can't handle the punishment those men can dish out.


[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]This isn't MMA, Boxing or amateur wrestling. It's pro wrestling. The objective is to draw money, rating and sell tickets and merch. Not look like a real sport. That stopped being the case since 1984.[/QUOTE]


So why even have weight classes? If they aren't going to mean anything, then why have them? If no one cares about weight classes, why is it called the heavyweight championship? It makes no sense at all.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Austin punches and delivers the Stunner. That's it. Rey however has a large variety of offense and can come from any angle with his speed. Yes Austin is heavier and taller. his height does nothing to make him any stronger or faster than Rey. And his weight does not add more force behind his strikes.[/QUOTE]

This isn't a debate about Steve Austin, but you are way off, and I can't just let that slide. Austin has several moves in his arsenal, including the Lou Thesz Press, Vertical Suplex, Leapfrog Body Guillotine, Spinebuster, Back Body Drop, Elbow Drop from the second rope, the Million Dollar Dream, and even a Superplex. Rey Mysterio uses several strikes, which are mostly kicks, and several variations of the Hurricanrana. Let's not act as though Rey has more moves than he actually has.

Most of Rey's most devastating moves are done on smaller men. When he's in the ring with anyone over 6'-6", and/or 325 lbs., he loses the ability to execute many of these moves. Rey Mysterio has his best matches with smaller guys. Unfortunately for Rey, most of the WWE Heavyweight Championship contenders are not Cruiserweights. I'm not bashing Rey, it's just how it is. Rey loses the ability to use half of the moves in his arsenal by wrestling much larger men.


[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Then his speed comes into play. The bigger the guy, the slower and faster to exhaust. The smaller the guy, the more physical Rey can get.[/QUOTE]

Exactly; the smaller the guy, the more physical Rey can get. Rey cannot stand up in a brawl to the bigger men he faces. It doesn't look real. It looks horribly fake in the context of an already fake-looking sport.

Rey has the speed to exhaust a bigger man, I'll give you that. But that takes time. And when I, and many others, see Rey in the ring with a 7-footer, it's almost unbelievable that the match can go on more than 5 minutes. He just isn't physically capable of the damage the creative department has decided he can dish out. It doesn't look believable.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Two great matches featuring Rey Mysterio against a larger man. Funny note. You say Rey can't hurt big guys yet on the last 2 occasions Undertaker faced Rey, he's gotten injured. The second time put him out of action.[/QUOTE]

Yes, when someone REALLY kicks you in the face, it can cause an injury...especially in a fake sport, where you aren't expecting to be kicked in the face like that.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Big Show, Undertaker and Kane overshadow almost the entire WWE roster. Yet they lose pretty frequently. Kane and Big Show at least.[/QUOTE]

They do overshadow most of the roster, but not nearly to the extent of which each one of those men overshadow Rey Mysterio. That's my whole point. Rey is just too small.


[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Chris Jericho, Edge, Batista, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerrero, CM Punk, Matt Hardy, Dean Malenko, Randy Orton, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, etc. Great feuds Rey's had. I could go on and mention more.[/QUOTE]

With Batista, it was personal. Also, it played out pretty well, seeing Batista basically destroyed Rey, week in and week out.

All of those other men listed are not giants. Jericho, Eddie, Chavo, Matt Hardy, and Dean Malenko have all competed for the Cruiserweight title. He probably had the best matches of his career with those men. Why? Because he is able to perform more high-impact moves on smaller men. How many hurricanranas can he execute on Mark Henry, or The Undertaker? Zero.

I'm not saying Rey should never feud with bigger guys. I'm saying he shouldn't be World's Heavyweight Champion. It limits the amount of quality feuds he can have while defending the title, due to his size.

[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]First off, Rey does not have to win. He has never beaten the Big Show. WWE keeps the realism there. He can perform with the likes of Kane, Undertaker and yes even Big Show without it looking like a side show.[/QUOTE]

Why would I want to see a bunch of non-clean wins when dealing with the World's Heavyweight Championship? You are almost proving my point for me right here. Rey Mysterio is limited, and it hurts title matches.


[QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2340956]Like I said, Rey is a deserving World Champion. A lack of size against a slew of his opponents does not hinder his performance in the ring or his opponents.[/QUOTE]

It absolutely does. You can post as many youtube videos as you want, but it's not as if all of us haven't seen these matches already. Rey Mysterio hurts the title picture, plain and simple, because he limits the action when he's inside the ring with a larger man. You're videos actually prove that.
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Closing Argument

Rey Mysterio has been a fan-favorite for years. From his days in WCW tearing up the Cruiserweight division, to his time on Smackdown as a hero to the children. I'm not attempting to bash Rey, because as a wrestler, I think he's decent. I just don't believe he's deserving of the World's Heavyweight Championship, and a lot of fans feel the same way. Here are some reasons why I feel this way:

He's Not A Heavyweight:

As the title makes clear, he isn't a heavyweight. I understand he sells merchandise, he's a draw, whatever. But that doesn't change the fact that he's nowhere near large enough to be competing in the heavyweight division, especially for the title.

Rey has tremendous ability inside the ring, no doubt. But when matched up with men who are two, even three times his size, it doesn't seem realistic. I understand wrestling is a fake sport, and not everything looks realistic. And that actually helps my argument; in the totally fake world of professional wrestling, there is nothing more unbelievable than Rey Mysterio beating men more than two times his size.

He Rode Eddie's Train:

He rode the wave of emotion after Eddie's death. The WWE used his friendship with Eddie to get him over (he was already over, but this took him to another level). They used Eddie's death as a storyline to help Rey. If not for this tragedy, I doubt Mysterio would have ever been elevated to that level.

He Isn't Very Good on the Mic:

Simply put, he's not a great speaker. His promos are usually nothing to talk about, and sometimes take away from a feud. During his feud this past winter/spring with CM Punk, Rey showed he isn't very good with the whole talking thing. It was a good feud, because A. Punk is close enough in size to Rey to have good matches, and B. Punk carried the mic work.

I'm not saying Rey Mysterio is Matt Hardy-bad on the mic, but he isn't very good. When you combine his inability to physically match up with most of the other contenders for the World Heavyweight Championship, with his lackluster mic skills, you really have a guy who doesn't deserve to have to World's Heavyweight Championship.

Rey Is Limited:

When Rey Mysterio joins the WHC title hunt, he becomes limited. Most of the guys who are competing for the WHC are much larger than Rey Mysterio. When Rey climbs in the ring with these guys, he becomes limited. His move set takes a big hit when wrestling larger men, and he can't execute nearly as many exciting moves as he can while wrestling men closer to his own size.

I'm not saying Rey Mysterio can't feud with larger men. I'm saying it shouldn't happen every PPV. The David vs. Goliath storyline has been done to death when involving Rey Mysterio. It seems as though he's in one of those situations every week.

The best matches of Rey's career have come against men who are physically similar. Guys like Dean Malenko, Juventud Guerrera, Psicosis, Ultimo Dragon, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerrero, and even Chris Jericho during his Cruiserweight days in WCW.

Rey is a great little wrestler, but doesn't belong in the heavyweight division. He isn't a heavyweight, it's as simple as that. He hurts the WHC by holding it. Sure, he sells merchandise because the kids love him. But that doesn't mean anyone else wants to see him as WHC. These are all reasons why I believe Rey Mysterio, after it's all said and done, will be looked upon as an undeserving World's Champion. Thank you for your time.

 

[ABMorales787]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Big Shows leg probably weighs as much as Rey does..as a whole. Big Show is a foot and a half taller, and outweighs Rey by 325 lbs. This match may have been booked as a possible win for Rey in the past, but that doesn't mean it is in any way, shape or form believable.

Weight does not dictate your ability to take punishment. Just because Show's leg is huge, doesn't mean it's immune to any pain. The kicks Rey uses tend to be extremely effective when used in MMA. Translating it to wrestling would make it seem just as effective.

[youtube]OWxlZ52O0rI&feature=related[/youtube]

I know it's MMA but it's real. Translating it to wrestling, solidify=ies that it isn't impossible or over-the-top. I know the commentary is stupid. The skinny guy it 10 pounds lighter than Rey Mysterio and the big guy is 100 pounds heavier than Big Show. Imagine that.

He also has the ability to be knocked into next week by one shot from Big Show. Same goes for Taker, Kane, Mark Henry, or that bum Mike Knox he used to feud with. For the sake of argument, I'll give you that Rey has the ability to hurt these men. With a lot of time, and skill, he can do some damage. But any one of those men has the ability, at any time, to take Rey out with only a few simple moves, and I don't think that's up for debate. Rey just can't handle the punishment those men can dish out.

You say it as if they were trying to kill him. They are trying to win a match. Wrestling has rules. Just because you have an advantage over a guy, you are legally able to mangle them. If that were the case, CM Punk would have more than just a surgically repaired elbow after Summerslam.

So why even have weight classes? If they aren't going to mean anything, then why have them? If no one cares about weight classes, why is it called the heavyweight championship? It makes no sense at all.

Wrestling has never had weight classes. Cruiserweight belts have the weight limits in modern American wrestling. You only have card levels.

- Undercard (Santino, Chavo, etc.)

- Mid-Card (Christian, Kofi, McIntyre, etc.)

- Upper Mid-Card (Miz, Wade Barret, etc.)

- Main Event (John Cena, Orton, Rey Mysterio, etc.)

Most of Rey's most devastating moves are done on smaller men. When he's in the ring with anyone over 6'-6", and/or 325 lbs., he loses the ability to execute many of these moves. Rey Mysterio has his best matches with smaller guys. Unfortunately for Rey, most of the WWE Heavyweight Championship contenders are not Cruiserweights. I'm not bashing Rey, it's just how it is. Rey loses the ability to use half of the moves in his arsenal by wrestling much larger men.

- CM Punk (220)
- Chris Jericho (220)
- The Miz (230)
- John Cena (240)
- Randy Orton (245)
- Jack Swagger (280)
- Undertaker (300)
- Kane (312)

These are all main event guys. I have yet to see a bad performance with them featuring Rey Mysterio. Have you?

Rey has the speed to exhaust a bigger man, I'll give you that. But that takes time. And when I, and many others, see Rey in the ring with a 7-footer, it's almost unbelievable that the match can go on more than 5 minutes. He just isn't physically capable of the damage the creative department has decided he can dish out. It doesn't look believable.

Yes, when someone REALLY kicks you in the face, it can cause an injury...especially in a fake sport, where you aren't expecting to be kicked in the face like that.

The first paragraph answers the second. In wrestling, you can be catched by surprise. Not just by a kick, but by turning around and seeing a guy flying towards you. Which would be what injured The Undertaker. He's not supposed to see it coming in context. It's a worked sport, but it still needs to look real. Therefor the injury proves Rey CAN stand up to big guys and hurt them. Because he did it legit.

They do overshadow most of the roster, but not nearly to the extent of which each one of those men overshadow Rey Mysterio. That's my whole point. Rey is just too small.

But Chris Jericho isn't. Or CM Punk? A few pounds and inches doesn't change the fact that they all look small.

With Batista, it was personal. Also, it played out pretty well, seeing Batista basically destroyed Rey, week in and week out.

See. And Batista is 299 pounds, and 6' 6. We got a great feud out of it. And Rey won the thing.

All of those other men listed are not giants. Jericho, Eddie, Chavo, Matt Hardy, and Dean Malenko have all competed for the Cruiserweight title. He probably had the best matches of his career with those men. Why? Because he is able to perform more high-impact moves on smaller men. How many hurricanranas can he execute on Mark Henry, or The Undertaker? Zero.

What is it with the Huricanrannas anyway? He can do other stuff. His Wheelbarrow Bulldog, Tornado DDT, Seated Senton, Springboard Leg Drop, 619, Headscissor Takedown, etc. All of which he's done to big guys.

I'm not saying Rey should never feud with bigger guys. I'm saying he shouldn't be World's Heavyweight Champion. It limits the amount of quality feuds he can have while defending the title, due to his size.

Out of the current slew of main event guys, name one who Rey shouldn't wrestle due to not looking "legit". He's already feuded with Kane and Undertaker.

It absolutely does. You can post as many youtube videos as you want, but it's not as if all of us haven't seen these matches already. Rey Mysterio hurts the title picture, plain and simple, because he limits the action when he's inside the ring with a larger man. You're videos actually prove that.

No. They prove my point that Rey can:

1) Draw a large crowd reaction
2) Wrestle well
3) Tell a good story
4) By comparison does not look "fake" when wrestling a bigger man

The basics of being a main guy in WWE.


Closing Argument:

Rey Mysterio is a man who earned his World Championship reigns. He is a man who draws much revenue, he's a reliable worker, can put good match with anybody and has broken many barriers in WWE.

Thanks to Rey Mysterio, guys like Evan Bourne, Bryan Danielson, Kaval and Kofi Kingston have the hope to make it to the top regardless of their limitations, because "smaller men have made it". It's also thanks to Rey (and Eddie) that a guy like Alberto Del Rio (Dos Caras Jr.) can see that they have just as good a chance to make it big as a guy like The Miz, Wade Barret or Sheamus.

Not all of Rey's best moments involved "Cruiserweight" guys. He had a tremendous feuds and matches with Batista, Kurt Angle, Edge, Undertaker, Randy Orton and more.

So he rode Eddie's train. he was not alone. Just the most successful. Batista, Psicosis, Chavo, and a few others did as well. But the crowd connected with Rey.

Rey could possibly be considered a "Martin Luther King" for WWE. Thanks to him, WWE is not afraid to push smaller guys. Thanks to him, WWE dips into the international market more oftenly. Not just in Latino's, but the Irish (Sheamus), Indian (Khali), Scottish (McIntyre) and even African (Kofi).

It's thanks to Rey that the High Flying style did not die with WCW. He blew minds upon his WWE arrival and drove merch sales high.

How does a guy that has given so much and has broken so many boundaries in modern pro wrestling not deserve a World Championship?

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: nickb03
Nick kept on subject when Riaku did lose track at times. Both men kept it clean but nick was better presented and rounded up his argument well.

Punctuality: nickb03
Riaku took longer to reply at times.

Informative: Riaku
Youtube videos and using facts helped Riaku get this point.

Persuasion: nickb03
Where Riaku had the info and youtube videos, I felt he didn't use them to their full potential to assist him in making me feel Rey is deserving to be a World Champion. Nick summed it up best, there's nothing wrong with what Rey has done with the industry for his style but he's not World Champion material. Both men gave a great debate but nick had me convinced.

Final score
Riaku: 1
nickb03: 4

 

[CH David]

When scoring I'm not putting in your whole name Killjoy. That's too unnecessary.

Clarity: Nick did a great job staying on track and had a great open and close. Killjoy kinda rambled on about unimportant stuff.

Point: nickb03

Punctuality: Killjoy was late once. Nick wasn't.

Point: nickb03

Informative: Love the use of videos from Killjoy.

Point: Riaku

Persuasion: Nick swayed me to his side in his opener. Killjoy was trying to pull me in, but it wasn't happening. Nick stated how Rey is too small to be believable and it's true. If Eddie doesn't pass away, I truly feel that Rey doesn't win a World Heavyweight Championship.

Points: nickb03

CH David scores this nickb03 4, Riaku 1.

 

[BooCocky]

Clarity- Nick was very clear and precise from the get go. Killjoy rambled a tad bit about irrelevant stuff. NIck did a fantastic job of staying on topic. Therefore he gets the point.

Point- Nick

Punctual- Riaku took longer to reply at times.

Point- Nick

Informative- I know I said Riaku swayed off topic a bit but when he posted on topic he provided a lot of good information. Like the use of Youtube videos in his post. Which is enough to get the point for me.

Point- Riaku.

Persuasion - I agree with Phoenix on this one. While Riaku used the videos he didn't really use them to my liking. He could have done so much more. A little post about it doesn't do it for me. You could have written a lot more about the video. You took the easy way out and it cost you. Nick had a great opener. I love Rey but I strongly believe his point about Rey being too small. Eddie stays alive, Rey doesn't win a world championship. I believe that.

Final Tally

Nick- 4
Riaku -1

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: nickb03
Riaku, split up your opening post and rebuttal. It not only helps us gain a greater sense of where the argument is heading, but it gives you double the post count!

Punctuality: nickb03
What Phoenix said..

Informative: Riaku
Yes, Riaku did a great job of bringing in visual evidence.

Persuasion: nickb03
Listen to what Phoenix said, Riaku. When you bring in evidence, don't assume that it's going to automatically work for you; you have to make it work for you.

Final score
Riaku: 1
nickb03: 4

 

[Phoenix]

After a complete judge's tally, nickb03 is the victor on 16 points to Riaku's 4.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!