Problem With Brock VS Punk

[Pay Per Ghost]

....ye Punk can't win.


Let's start from the beginning to better understand this conundrum; why is Brock here? Brock isn't here to put himself over, he has built a solid enough rep for himself to live by for the rest of his life. As JBL said 'a once in a lifetime athlete' and by God he's right. Brock has excelled in all the ranks and environments and there is certainly money to be made with his name.

But let's recap his matches:

Vs Cena:

The BEST 1 month feud and match ever. My god the build for this, the bloodshed had me on the edge of my seat and the beating Cena took in that one was unreal.

Now here's how that epic ended...

Keep this image in mind.

Vs Triple H:

A drawn out feud that culminated into their first match at SumemrSlam 2012, and ended something like this...

Triple H, the Cerebral Assassin that he is, promptly realized that he had to get rid of all that excess weight on his head and so triumphantly returned with a buzzcut to beat the Beast at Wrestlemania 29...

Now I won't go into their last bout because I think you know where I'm going with this. Brock has been presented as a 'special' monster. He requires that something extra to beat him with every, single, time. The first loss at the hands of Cena; they made it look like he was knocked out just long enough for Cena to get the 3. With Hunter at Mania however, he was knocked out cold. Coupled with the fact that both Cena and Hunter are themselves physically imposing, made that suspension easy.


Now comes Punk...

You can look like Wolverine all you want but the there is no way a FACE (this is important) Punk beats Brock Lesnar.

That doesn't mean big men have never been beaten. No sir! There are a few sure-fire ways to beat a monster:

1. Heelish rollups
2. Badass submissions
3. Knocking them out cold

Disregard rollups for now, and we have submissions and KOs. Sure Punk has the Anaconda Vice, but there is no logical sense in making a guy you parade around as a real fighter tapping out to a wrestler. KO, has been done right, but what does Punk have? The GTS. Ye his GTS is far less from convincing on the likes of Cena so I have no intentions of believing they would keep Brock down for anything less than a kickout after 2. Maybe Brock jumping off the top rope and Punk pretty much breaking his nose with a knee strike aka a modified GTS. Maybe then. Maybe. I'll need to see the broken nose.


Bottom line, there is no good way out of this. There are many ways in which this match can go and I'm sure WWE has already figured out how this ends, but I have a serious concern that Brock might come out of this losing a lot off his luster if he gets beaten by Punk. Punk brings nothing to the table that would insure Brock's appeal and persona after as well. Sure you're using Brock to elevate your top Superstars, but there is no way a fan-friendly Punk goes over without some serious repercussions to Brock's image.

The sacrifice, is just too big.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

WWE only cares about Brock's name. Win or lose, he's making them money (apparently).

Believability is something that obviously wasn't considered. I'm sorry, but look at CM Punk, and then take a look at Brock Lesnar... what do you see? I know what I see. A massacre.

CM Punk looks like a homeless man. I think he's really good at what he does, but I can't get past this. Just about any fake wrestler kicking Lesnar's ass is unbelievable, but there's no better example than CM Punk.

Is this a big deal? No. No one cares. It's pro wrestling, so disbelief should be suspended the moment you tune in. Personally, however, I can't buy into it. I'm looking forward to the feud, but it makes me giggle... like a school girl.

(can't wait for the "CM Punk does martial arts... stuff, you idiot!!! arguments)

 

[oneofakind318]

I appreciate where you're coming from and the work you put into this post, but you're putting way too much thought into it. It's pro wrestling/sports entertainment. Sure, it's fun to analyze, but it's more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride the performers take us on. Suspending disbelief is what the entire business was built on. It won't (and shouldn't) change.

 

[tak161]

The size difference is definitely huge, but I think it is entirely believable that someone of Punk's size could beat beat someone of Lesnar's size. I mean, if Rey Mysterio can defeat Kevin Nash and Big Show, then anything is possible. I never thought that was realistic, but it happened. So Punk can definitely beat Lesnar.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I appreciate where you're coming from and the work you put into this post, but you're putting way too much thought into it. It's pro wrestling/sports entertainment. Sure, it's fun to analyze, but it's more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride the performers take us on. Suspending disbelief is what the entire business was built on. It won't (and shouldn't) change.

I definitely have, and perhaps my time would have been well spent zooming into Kaitlyn's latest photo op. Both my hands would be well occupied.

The trouble is, my disbelief is not being suspended rather, it is alarmed and attentive to what could be a major career blow to our precious beast.


I think Punk does well on the stick and ok in the ring. But you people wait till that staredown, wait till these to go nose to nose and then you'll see what I'm talking about. The only logical end of their match would be if Punk is maimed by Lesnar.

 

[TM Punk]

Shawn Michaels used a mans fake leg to help him beat deisel. Steve Austin hit people with chairs on a semi-weekly basis. The point is not for the babyface to never cheat, but to do so only when pushed in a corner. This match will play out alot like Brock vs Eddie (whom Punk holds a height advantage over fyi). Brock will dominate the match. Paul Heyman will be conflicted. RVD will interfere with a Vandaminator, Punk... Elbow drop... win. Something like that is totally possible. It wouldnt hurt either superstars rep.

 

[thenextbigthing]

I'm sorry, but look at CM Punk, and then take a look at Brock Lesnar... what do you see? I know what I see. A massacre.

I completely agree with you. As a twenty-five year old man who's been a professional wrestling fan since he was rolling around as a toddler on the living room floor, there's absolutely no way to suspend this disbelief. I completely understand that's what the business does in general, but this pairing makes it impossible. I actually found it a bit difficult to suspend disbelief seeing Punk and The Rock next to each other, let alone Lesnar and Punk.

That being said, I am extremely intrigued to see where CM Punk the character and Brock Lesnar the character go with this.

In their inevitable show down, most likely at Summerslam, how do you put a babyface Punk over Lesnar with Heyman in his corner?

I think the answer is simple: you don't.

Like another poster has said, baby faces, or at least baby faces with attitude have always gone the attitude driven, cheating route when backed into a corner. Put Lesnar over Punk and book a rematch. Punk's will to win, backed by the fans, his hatred for what Heyman has done to him and a weapon of choice will eventually take down the monster.

If anybody can eventually pull off this David vs. Goliath story, it's CM Punk.

 

[iperky]

Uh, are you forgetting CM Punk is sick at martial arts?!

Yeah it's a huge mismatch but Punk's whole baby face run was built on being mismatched.

Against Cena he was taking on superman. Against Triple H he was taking on the boss. He had the deal with Nash and Big Jonny costing him it all, too.

Sure, Lesnar is a god damn beast, but I'm sure they'll find some way around it.

Either way it'll certainly create a bit of a summer buzz about the product. And as usual it revolves around Punk.

 

[rge2010]

Am I really reading this correct? People are saying Punk cant beat Lesnar because of his size? OH MY GOD!!! Its scripted folks!!!!! Who cares who wins!

Im looking forward to an epic fued and a great match! This one has money written on it so I think it will go over 2/3 matches. Punk is off the back off some huge losses to Rock, Cena and Taker so he needs the win. Lesnar will probably even the score at some point as well.

 

[ThePrawnCurry]

Its Heyman guy vs Heyman guy

smells like the Paul Bearer/ Taker/ Kane arc to me

where RVD fits in is uncertain,

either way, Punk will lead a 'revolution' away from Heyman

As far as the Lesnar/Punk feud, none of the matches will have a clean finish

with either blatant cheating or interference to smudge the results book.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

What's ultimately important to WWE is the usage of Brock Lesnar's name and presence to help jack up ppv buys. Whether he ultimately wins or loses his matches, Lesnar being on the card helps to increase the number of buys a show does.

As for Punk vs. Lesnar, the whole difference in their size thing doesn't mean squat to me frankly. If this was a real fight, then I might think a bit differently. However, if Punk is able to go up against powerhouses like John Cena, Big Show and Mark Henry with success; then why not Brock Lesnar? Lesnar isn't really any bigger physically than Cena and is much smaller than Show or Henry. I know that Lesnar was an MMA guy for a while with a UFC Heavyweight Championship run and that's all well and good but, even in a real fight, Lesnar being a bigger guy doesn't guarantee he's someone whose going to always win against someone much smaller. Frankly, if you were to put Lesnar against someone like Anderson Silva, I'd back Silva all day long. Why? Because he's a bad motherfucker that's why even. Silva hasn't lost a fight in over 7 years and has been UFC World Middleweight Champion for the past 6.5 years. He wouldn't have Brock Lesnar's size or strength, but the guy's got serious skills. In the world of professional wrestling, those same traits can be applied to CM Punk.

I ultimately see them having a match at MITB in which Brock Lesnar winds up winning. After that, I expect them to have another match at the next ppv in which Punk scores a win over Lesnar. Finally, I see the feud culminating at SummerSlam and I think Punk ultimately takes the rubber match. I know that didn't happen with Triple H vs. Lesnar but Triple H is someone whose wrestling career is almost finished at this point in his life. Even if Punk does lose to Lesnar at SummerSlam, scoring at least one decisive victory over Brock Lesnar won't make him look weak.

 

[CMbrose Punk]

There's two words that come to mind every time someone uses the size argument: Royce Gracie. Have you ever heard of him? He was the tournament winner of the first four UFC events, back when they were all about putting the different martial arts against each other to determine superiority. Royce was a smaller guy, smaller than his brothers, and was making big strong muscular dudes tap out. Just because big guys look mean and scary doesn't mean anything against great technique. But then you want to say, "Oh but that doesnt count; this is wrasslin". Well then stop using the size argument because size matters even less in wrestling since it's fake. Case in point, Rey Mysterio's Giant Slayer moniker in WCW.

CM Punk has been training at the Gracie Jiu Jutsu camp lately, in case you didnt notice the hoodie he's been wearing to the ring since his return. He's been training with Rener Gracie, the guy who's marrying Eve Torres. Punk incorporates a lot of MMA into his wrestling style, between Muay Thai strikes and Jiu Jutsu grappling. The Anaconda vice is a variation of an arm-triangle choke, which Brock Lesnar himself used to beat Shane Carwin at UFC 116. Will a Punk win be hard-fought? Absolutely. Every win against Lesnar has been hard-fought. It's not like they're booking squash matches here; they're telling stories. Will they play up the size disadvantage? Absolutely. That's part of the story; being the underdog, overcoming the odds. They will be trading wins just like the other Lesnar feuds as of late. The build up is going to be even better than HHH or Cena because of the Paul Heyman element. WWE needed another big name feud for the summer and they're giving us one.

 

[Mustang Sally]

As for Punk vs. Lesnar, the whole difference in their size thing doesn't mean squat to me frankly. If this was a real fight, then I might think a bit differently.

Yes, that must be kept in mind. As it is, I felt better about the coming feud last night watching the two of them front each other in the ring. Punk is smaller than Brock, obviously, but not so much smaller that their match would feature as ridiculous before the bell even rings. They were closer in height than I believed.....Brock is more massive through the upper body, especially in contrast to Punk's rather unimpressive appearance through the shoulders and neck.

Still, it wasn't as absurd-looking as I feared. Remember too, this is professional wrestling; a world in which Rey Mysterio can defeat Kevin Nash. If Punk didn't have the ring skills to look good against bigger opponents, there'd be a problem......but he does. Whether Brock can control his routine and not seriously hurt Punk once the going gets tough; well, that's a bigger concern. Guys like Cena and Triple H have the bodies and mien to take it; they are legitimate tough guys. Punk will just have to work his match and hope for the best.

In the end, WWE needs quality match-ups between quality performers....and this is one. Gotta do it.

 

[scomvp316]

-Both guys are trained in MMA just that Punk uses it more than Lesnar
-Punk can manipulate Lesnar's size into submissions
-Obviously Punk isn't going to control the match as much as he usually does but to build him as a stable face must make the character sympathetic
-In a real fight didn't Lesnar dominate Mir in their first fight and then Mir caught him in a heel lock and the fight was over when Lesnar tapped
-So its believeable that a guy of Punk's size can defeat a guy like Lesnar by catching him in one mistake and then the match is over
-I don't see Heyman being conflicted because Punk must be a face and obviously Heyman is a heel

 

[SD619]

I have the same problem with this match as I had with Punk-Taker. Neither will tap out and GTS is not a believable enough finisher for such guys (especially not Punk's version). Also, the last two times Brock lost were due AA/Pedigree on the steel steps. GTS on the steel steps would have no extra impact.

But just like Punk-Taker, it will be a good match and will generate considerable money/interest.


And, just for the sake of it:

Spoiler

 

[Барбоса]

I am not completely sold on the "Lesnar must win" aspect to this but I am completely behind the idea that Punk must get completely massacred on numerous occasions. Whether he slays the giant at the end of all that, I am not certain either way.

But would it really be all that surprising that face Punk did survive Lesnar?

When he was squaring off against Cena and then HHH, Punk's unusually high perseverance was highlighted on many occasions - kicking out of multiple AAs, surviving/countering several STFs, it taking numerous Pedigrees (and a 7ft Jackknife Powerbomb) to beat him.

Why would the same story not work with Lesnar? Punk taking an absolute hiding of the highest order but still managing to continue. Coincidentally, given where the microphone landed during the F5, I almost wanted Punk to go against the normal way of things and comment into the mic about "is that all you got?" I think a repeat along the lines of Hardy/Taker with Punk telling Lesnar that he won't break him, minus the eventual Lesnar respect, of course.

If the story is developed correctly, I would have very little problem with Punk winning a match with Lesnar through a Hail Mary type move much like Cena did. Punk is also supposed to be quite a cerebral wrestler so I could easily see him outsmarting Lesnar to steal a win.

 

[CMbrose Punk]

-I don't see Heyman being conflicted because Punk must be a face and obviously Heyman is a heel

I am 99% sure that Heyman sent Lesnar after Punk. If you look at how Heyman told Punk he loved him and gave him a hug before the match, it kinda reminded me of something the mafia would do right before they had you whacked. Then during the match, Cole kept running his mouth about how odd it was that Heyman wasn't out there. At that point I knew Heyman was going to turn on Punk somehow and the only logical way Heyman could do it was with either Curtis Axel, Brock Lesnar, or RVD. I ruled Axel out because he's in a program for the IC title. They gave him some cheap wins over HHH and Cena so he could go into the mid card with some momentum to get himself established before coming back up to the main event. I ruled RVD out because they're advertising his return for the next PPV to increase buys, plus when he returns, he's returning as a face. There's always the face pop for returning guys anyway, but also RVD's style just doesn't work well as a heel. His laid back stoner attitude and move set in the ring just doesn't sell being a heel very well. So that leaves Lesnar, who was rumored to be working with Cena over the summer, but then we saw the Mark Henry segment and that summed up what Cena's going to be doing for the summer. So I already figured out that Lesnar would be attacking Punk at the end of the match thanks to Michael Cole emphasizing Heyman's actions way too much. So Heyman deliberately sent Lesnar after Punk and I can't wait to hear Heyman sell it on the mic next week on Raw. This should be a good feud.

 

[ITrippedTheShockmaster]

It's been teased that this program would take place when Punk came back, so we shouldn't be surprised. Even starting at Payback last night, they began Punk's eventual face turn away from Heyman. Punk returns in his hometown to a huge face reaction and has a great match with Jericho. Looks like he's right back to being a heel, right? Nope. He gets angry with Heyman for interfering in the match and stresses that he's not a "client," but a friend. There's the seed...

Last night on RAW, they pushed it even further when Punk confronted ADR and questioned Heyman speaking on his behalf. When Punk said that Ziggler deserved a rematch and that he and Jericho brought the house down at Payback, the face turn was just about complete because he'd done something he hadn't done in a long time - showed other competitors respect. When Punk told Heyman that he didn't want Paul at ringside anymore, that basically did it. So, Heyman feels like one of his "guys" is spurning him? As the "boss," what do you do? You send out the muscle - Lesnar- to remind Punk of who calls the shots. Or... Lesnar took it upon himself to attack Punk because Punk disrespected Heyman (remember what Lesnar did to VKM when he was about to fire Heyman?). I think the former idea is correct, but you never know.

Great setup. I agree that this should be a good feud for all characters involved, and I can't wait to see how it progresses.

 

[MWRedskins]

seriously??? this is the problem?? I think that is a VERY small issue, pun intended. look at it like this. there have been MANY MANY small guys vs. big guys and it worked, so why cant this??? and we can use Punk as an example. in a Samoan Strap Match, he beat Umaga who's bigger than Brock in weight. so why isn't a win for Punk believable if he can beat Umaga?? now I think in the end, Lesnar wins (to build him up as an unstoppable beast), but to call it a problem just because of supposed real life, I disagree with. and honestly, in a real life fight Cena and Triple H lose VERY fast to Lesnar. I am not worried, I think Punk and Lesnar will put on a great match with Punk and Heyman selling it like it's gold.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Threads like this one, threads about Rey Mysterio, threads about Daniel Bryan... I wonder if you people ever even watch professional wrestling. If you do, I doubt you've ever been able to suspend your disbelief.

Have an ambulance waiting for when Cena and Mark Henry have a test of strength and Cena doesn't just crumple to the ground immediately.

 

[uvx]

I believe Brock will win at Summerslam, and Punk would continue to feud with Heyman and guys such as Axel and maybe even RVD, then at Survivor Series Team Punk vs Team Heyman where Punk can pin Lesnar to eliminate him.

 

[RyanCallaway]

I think others have answered sensibly to this issue - but I've learned not to put everything into appearances. I've heard Kane call Daniel Bryan one of the "legit tough guys" in the locker room. And frankly, anyone who looked at Chris Jericho vs Goldberg would assume Goldberg would thrash the guy in a real fight. But by all accounts, including Goldberg's (kudos to him for being man enough to admit it) when they did have a confrontation backstage, it was Jericho getting pulled off of him. That said, Lesnar does have freakish strength and he's frighteningly fast and agile for a guy with his build. But it's not impossible for a CM Punk to go over him.

 

[The Butcher]

I think others have answered sensibly to this issue - but I've learned not to put everything into appearances. I've heard Kane call Daniel Bryan one of the "legit tough guys" in the locker room. And frankly, anyone who looked at Chris Jericho vs Goldberg would assume Goldberg would thrash the guy in a real fight. But by all accounts, including Goldberg's (kudos to him for being man enough to admit it) when they did have a confrontation backstage, it was Jericho getting pulled off of him. That said, Lesnar does have freakish strength and he's frighteningly fast and agile for a guy with his build. But it's not impossible for a CM Punk to go over him.

Add to that the tale of Joey Styles laying out Bradshaw in a backstage scuffle.

 

[justinsayne]

Guys like HBK, Eddie Guerrero, Bret Hart, Jericho, Benoit, Mysterio, AJ Styles etc. have all made careers out of beating guys much bigger than them, why should I not beleive some on as good as Punk wouldn't be able to at the very least hang with Brock?

 

[Da Solo]

It's a good argument but it doesn't hold water considering:

The Rock is bigger and more built than Lesnar yet Punk kicked him one good time in the head and had the match won, which can and has happened in real life.

Stranger things have happened in the WWE with the David vs. Goliath story. Rey Mysterio has beaten plenty of big men in his time.

Cesaro and Miz are the same size yet Cesaro threw him around like a rag doll

John Cena has lifted Edge and Big Show on his shoulders at the same damn time.

The whole point of all this is to say size doesn't matter. Even outside the realm of kayfabe, matchups like these are very well possible.