Pick Your Poison: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart

[reddevil69]

First of all where the hell do you come of talking to me like that simply because of my opinion? Get the facts before I form an opinion? Really, because here I was thinking opinions were based on personal beliefs, and not facts.

Second off, don't give me this bullshit about how Bret was the babyface so that's why he didn't use the ladder. Razor Ramon was the babyface in his ladder match with HBK and he used it as a weapon plenty. Bret didn't know what the hell he was doing with the ladder match, all he knew was that he wanted to be the first do it in the WWE. Bret is one of my all time favorite wrestlers, but he had no fucking clue what he was doing in that match and it's obvious. He just stumbles around the ring, glancing occasionally at the ladder.

The Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels debate is simply OPINION. No one is right, that means not you, and not me. But people are severely underrating Michaels in this thread. I could name many, many classic matches from the guy. Just like I could for Hart. The difference is however, that Hart burned himself out too quickly, no matter how bright a star he was, where as Michaels is STILL on the top of the WWE.

Classic HBK Matches:
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1992
Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty - RAW 1993
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania 10
Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett - IYH July 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Summerslam 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Wrestlemania 12
Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel - IYH April 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith - One Night Only 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Vader - Summerslam 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind - IYH September 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Sycho Sid - Royal Rumble 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - IYH October 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - Royal Rumble 1998
Shawn Michaels vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 14
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Summerslam 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Armageddon 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania 19
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit vs. Triple H - Wrestlemania 20
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Wrestlemania 21
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Vengeance 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Homecoming October 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. McMahon - Wrestlemania 22

Damn that is a lot of classic matches, wouldn't you agree? All of those are amazing matches. Now onto Bret...

Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect - Summerslam 1991
Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith - Summerslam 1992
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Wrestlemania 10
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Summerslam 1994
Bret Hart vs. Diesel - Survivor Series 1995
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 12
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Survivor Series 1996
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 13
Bret Hart vs. Undertaker - Summerslam 1997
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Survivor Series 1997
Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit - WCW Mayhem 1999

Seems like HBK's got quite a bit more classic bouts under his belt, wouldn't you agree? Not to mention he's been able to put on Match of the Year's three or four times and the guy is waaay past his prime.

It's all opinion. But you have to respect other's opinions.

Opinions are based on personal taste, but a valid opinion is backed up by facts...did you or did you not tell Emmet to base his opinion on facts in your earlier post?....it's there in black and white, go back and re-read it...you also said that most of what he wrote is "absolute bullshit"..make up your mind...you can't use that as an excuse to rip apart someone's opinion and then not adhere to it when it finds fault with your own... if you're going to make remarks like that, then you should expect to be called on them, and if you don't like it tough shit...i wasn't disrespecting you, i was pointing out that you made a statement about basing opinion on fact, yet you didn't have all the facts straight to support some of your remarks...what did you not understand about me saying that Razor and Shawn stepped it up because it was Wrestlemania?....do you really think if Bret had the ladder match at Wrestlemania with Shawn that it would have been the same as the one from 1992?...give me a break...and i would not consider Shawn vs. Vince a classic match, sorry that's my opinion...and for your information the HBK/Sid match at the '97 rumble was weak and Shawn will be the first to admit that..he's not a fan of the match at all and has gone on record saying so...he had the flu that night and had a very high fever and he phoned it in so he could get the hell home....and you expect any wrestling fan who knows anything about good ringwork to believe that in 14yrs with the WWF Bret produced only 11 classic matches?...you ever hear of the Hart Foundation?...Bret worked his ass of on that tag team and also had a great singles match with the Macho Man on Saturday Nights Main event that no one ever mentions..Shawn was great with the Rockers, but they were no Hart Foundation and never made the impact that Hitman and Anvil did.. ...Bret also only main evented as a singles wrestler from 1991-1997 in WWF...that's six years..Shawn had 1992-1998 plus 2002 until the present....that's 11 years of singles matches, so by law of averages of course he's had more classic matches, as he well should have if he's been doing it longer...Bret's WCW tenure was not a shining moment but he was a mere shell of himself at that point and i don't think he gave a shit anymore..he was psychologically damaged by the screw job, the death of Owen and the political situation with Hogan in WCW, and keeping with the facts, his career was cut short by a kick to the head from Goldberg, not because he burnt himself out...i met Bret 4 months after that kick, in Nashville TN. and i spoke with him for awhile and i could see it in his eyes then, and hear it in his voice when he spoke of the uncertainty of his career at that point that he was not the same...and he announced his retirement 2 months later....Michaels is still on top because he took 4 years off from active competition period...if HBK had stuck around in 1998 and worked a full time schedule, he would not be wrestling right now...if he had continued with his health deteriorating and what was at the time, by his own admission a "disdain" for the business because he felt Vince was favoring Austin over him, he would have become like Bret and not given a shit anymore....he came back in 2002 and worked a part time schedule for the 1st year and a half....one RAW a week, one PPV per month and no house shows at all...i'm glad he did it that way, it means i still get to enjoy watching him perform a while longer, but you cannot compare Bret's WCW matches to what he did in WWF and certainly not to what Shawn's done...different set of circumstances, different company..if Bret would have been allowed to be the Hitman that we all grew up watching in WCW things would have been very different.......making a comparison between his WCW and WWF tenure is like comparing what Warren Moon or Raghib Ismail did in the CFL to what they did in the NFL.....and you can add another match to your list of great HBK matches that kicks the shit out of his match with Vince last year...this past monday on RAW from London, Cena and Shawn tore the house down...that was the best main event i've ever seen on RAW and i've been watching the show since it first aired...

 

[Kasey]

But come on mate, his match with Yokozuna? Both of them, Wrestlemania 9 and 10 were utter crap. No fault of Bret's though, more because Yoko couldn't put on a good match if his life depended on it. The only time I ever really liked the guy's wrestling and thought it was good was during his feud with the Undertaker resulting in that classic casket match(which btw had the greatest promo of all time before it with Undertaker shrouded in fog...damn that still creeps me out.) and his tag team tenure with Owen Hart.

Taste is relative to the individual, and I suppose those matches are no exception. I always loved their matches together and really felt they had natural chemistry and that the delivery of each person's offense really complemented one another well. Two of my all time favorite spots was actually in their rematch at WM X. Hart was knocking the piss out of him with a series of his trademark punches and he finished by nailing him square in the gut. Once Yoko bent over from the hit, Hart nailed him with a double hammer-fist to the back of the head. I loved it. Then, later on, Hart was Irish whipped off the ropes and returned with a Hart Attack Clothesline that saw him grip Yoko by the neck and take him all the way down. These definitely weren't the most exciting matches on their repective cards (and I thought the endings were very "meh"), but on the whole I loved them up until the end of each. That was a hell of a Rumble. I still remember Diesel taking out an unheard of nine guys. I nearly pissed my pants watching that Rumble.

On a side note, one of my favorite encounters was a televised Raw match from the Manhattan Center featuring Hart vs. Vader.

 

[Emmet]

Hart vs Taker at One Night Only in the UK was also another favourite of mine.

 

[BRandonkin]

This post is like Joe Louis vs Ali. Jordan vs. Magic Johnson. Michael Jackson vs Prince; It is almost impossible to choose.

The Ladder match between Bret and HBK was basic. It was something that they were trying to fill out. HBK is the innovator of the ladder match because he took it further. Understand innovator is not the first but rather it is the pusher and changer of how the thing are. Michael Jackson is the innovator of music video and dance but he was not the first, Jordan the innovator of basketball, not the first. So I totally agree that HBK is the innovator of the ladder match.

Bret had many gimmick matches from Steel cages to Submission matches, to Ironman Matches. HBK only had 3 ladder matches, 1 Hell in The Cell, 3 Elimination chambers I think and 1 casket match. Not a whole career based off of Gimmick matches.

BRet went solo in 1990 or 1991. HBK in 1992 so they both went solo at the sametime but HBK had 4 years off and bret retired in 2000 so bret Michaels has had a longer career than HBK. Both have had classic matches. According to Metzler they both have 2 Five Star matches HBK being the last for his battle with taker and both of them were gimmick matches for both superstars.

I think if you like technical matches you side with Bret. If you like a cat that does it all you like HBK. It like Kobe vs Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. Kobe can score, but I like an all around player. So I go with HBK everytime. He is a high flyer and technical wrestler. He is charismatic on the mike, loved by men and women, (even though some men act homo calling him gay and getting off on 13 years cause they do. that homo to disrespect people you don't personally or factually sound jealous) and an overall good worker. HBK

 

[The Dungeon]

Speaking of x's List!! I find it quite funny that you put the S. Series 92 match in Shawn's list...but not Bret's.

You're only profiling the matches that they had on TV or PPV. And even so, you're missing a good chunk of them. For Bret, you left out, Steamboat, Savage, Henning at KOTR 93, Piper at WM8, THe Owen tribute match, Backlund at Survivor Series '94, Diesel at RR95, even the mid carders like Hakushi & Jean Pierre Laffite, The Undertaker at One Night Only '97,Davey Boy at IYH5, ALL his matches at Stampede and Japan. Pretty much EVERYTIME he and Dynamite stepped in the ring it was an instant classic, same with Tiger Mask.

Maybe some of those matches weren't classics to you, but Shawn vs. Sid at the Rumble?? Just a typical standard vanilla match, which Shawn himself would be the first to tell you. Even there match at Survivor Series '96 was good, I wouldn't call it great.

And you've left out Shawn's matches as a Rocker and the AWA.

Plus, Bret's been known to tear the house down at house shows that dont' neccesarily air on TV. He and Owen had a tremendous technical showdown at Maple Leaf Gardens in '94, which i was proud to see.

IMO, the matche against Davey Boy at One Night Only and the screwjob match were hardly classics. They were very good, but not classics. The match againt McMahon, again "good", entertainng, but a classic?? Not even close.

Lets also get this straight as well, from 1977-1995, Bret didn't have a PPV every month to work with, or as much TV exposure. From 1995-1998, and from 2002-present...Shawn has had a wider stage to work on, and showcase his matches more. Just because he's had more classics seen on TV or PPV, doesen't mean he's neccesarily had more.

And a little side note about the Ladder Match....Bret was doing Ladder Matches in 1981, and he seemed to know what he was doing back then!!. The match with Shawn in '92 was an experement, and not much more. If it was Bret & Shawn at WM10 in a ladder match, I could guarandamntee that it would've been just as good.

Again...in the grand scheme of things...it all balances out between these two!!!!. I wish some of you would get that!!!!!.

 

[bane316]

Speaking of x's List!! I find it quite funny that you put the S. Series 92 match in Shawn's list...but not Bret's.

You're only profiling the matches that they had on TV or PPV. And even so, you're missing a good chunk of them. For Bret, you left out, Steamboat, Savage, Henning at KOTR 93, Piper at WM8, THe Owen tribute match, Backlund at Survivor Series '94, Diesel at RR95, even the mid carders like Hakushi & Jean Pierre Laffite, The Undertaker at One Night Only '97,Davey Boy at IYH5, ALL his matches at Stampede and Japan. Pretty much EVERYTIME he and Dynamite stepped in the ring it was an instant classic, same with Tiger Mask.

Maybe some of those matches weren't classics to you, but Shawn vs. Sid at the Rumble?? Just a typical standard vanilla match, which Shawn himself would be the first to tell you. Even there match at Survivor Series '96 was good, I wouldn't call it great.

And you've left out Shawn's matches as a Rocker and the AWA.

Plus, Bret's been known to tear the house down at house shows that dont' neccesarily air on TV. He and Owen had a tremendous technical showdown at Maple Leaf Gardens in '94, which i was proud to see.

IMO, the matche against Davey Boy at One Night Only and the screwjob match were hardly classics. They were very good, but not classics. The match againt McMahon, again "good", entertainng, but a classic?? Not even close.

Lets also get this straight as well, from 1977-1995, Bret didn't have a PPV every month to work with, or as much TV exposure. From 1995-1998, and from 2002-present...Shawn has had a wider stage to work on, and showcase his matches more. Just because he's had more classics seen on TV or PPV, doesen't mean he's neccesarily had more.

And a little side note about the Ladder Match....Bret was doing Ladder Matches in 1981, and he seemed to know what he was doing back then!!. The match with Shawn in '92 was an experement, and not much more. If it was Bret & Shawn at WM10 in a ladder match, I could guarandamntee that it would've been just as good.

Again...in the grand scheme of things...it all balances out between these two!!!!. I wish some of you would get that!!!!!.

AMEN!!!

 

[X]

Woah woah woah WOAH. I know you did not just say that Backlund vs. Bret was a good match. No one could possibly think of something that stupid. Backlund was so burned out of wrestling at that point that his whole WWE comeback was nothing but absolute shit. Every single match he had in his return was just a piece of stinky shit.

I was never a fan either of the Piper-Bret match at WM8. Their styles just didn't clash well enough for me, I always thought that match was overrated.

But yeah I did forget quite a few for Bret, but that's because I'm such an HBK mark most likely. Also, I've only really seen maybe two of Bret's matches in Stampede and one of HBK's AWA matches. I also didn't include any of their tag matches because I wanted to focus on their singles work.

But yes, add to that list the Survivor Series 92 match obviously, Bret vs. Hakushi, the Owen tribute, and a few others. I could have sworn I already had mentioned Bret's match with Hennig at KOTR 93, maybe not. That was a classic match.

I wanted to focus on their time in the majors. Some of the matches listed may not be classics, but to me alot of them were. I never understood all the hatred for the 97 RR match, I thought it was an awesome match.

But I mean, come on, how am I supposed to include house show matches, matches in Japan and in Canada, when either A) There is no footage available of them or B) I've never seen them and the odds of me seeing them are slim to none.

Oi, I did forget the Steamboat match though also, that was a classic indeed.

Overall though for me, it's a matter of who had the higher ammount of good matches over the longer period of time, and undoubtedly that is HBK in my mind. Bret was only really on top of the WWE for four or five years, tops. HBK's been at the top for a good twelve years now. Of course the odds aren't even in the fact that HBK has had so much more time, but does that change the fact that HBK put on more classic matches? Not in my mind it doesn't.

 

[reddevil69]

Speaking of x's List!! I find it quite funny that you put the S. Series 92 match in Shawn's list...but not Bret's.

You're only profiling the matches that they had on TV or PPV. And even so, you're missing a good chunk of them. For Bret, you left out, Steamboat, Savage, Henning at KOTR 93, Piper at WM8, THe Owen tribute match, Backlund at Survivor Series '94, Diesel at RR95, even the mid carders like Hakushi & Jean Pierre Laffite, The Undertaker at One Night Only '97,Davey Boy at IYH5, ALL his matches at Stampede and Japan. Pretty much EVERYTIME he and Dynamite stepped in the ring it was an instant classic, same with Tiger Mask.

Maybe some of those matches weren't classics to you, but Shawn vs. Sid at the Rumble?? Just a typical standard vanilla match, which Shawn himself would be the first to tell you. Even there match at Survivor Series '96 was good, I wouldn't call it great.

And you've left out Shawn's matches as a Rocker and the AWA.

Plus, Bret's been known to tear the house down at house shows that dont' neccesarily air on TV. He and Owen had a tremendous technical showdown at Maple Leaf Gardens in '94, which i was proud to see.

IMO, the matche against Davey Boy at One Night Only and the screwjob match were hardly classics. They were very good, but not classics. The match againt McMahon, again "good", entertainng, but a classic?? Not even close.

Lets also get this straight as well, from 1977-1995, Bret didn't have a PPV every month to work with, or as much TV exposure. From 1995-1998, and from 2002-present...Shawn has had a wider stage to work on, and showcase his matches more. Just because he's had more classics seen on TV or PPV, doesen't mean he's neccesarily had more.

And a little side note about the Ladder Match....Bret was doing Ladder Matches in 1981, and he seemed to know what he was doing back then!!. The match with Shawn in '92 was an experement, and not much more. If it was Bret & Shawn at WM10 in a ladder match, I could guarandamntee that it would've been just as good.

Again...in the grand scheme of things...it all balances out between these two!!!!. I wish some of you would get that!!!!!.

You hit the nail on the head dude....that was basically the whole point i was trying to make...if you factor in all the statistics and figures, laws of averages and the eras in which both guy's worked, they are both equal....the only thing you can base anything on is personal preferrence....if ya like Shawn better or Bret better, but that does not make either one a better perfromer than the other....if you are going to match ability against ability, the whole question of who is better is the stupidest idea ever presented....it's like saying that Michael Jordan had more natural skill than Wilt Chamberlain....

 

[X]

Err...don't mean to sound like a dick but Jordon did have more skill then Wilt. There are some things no one can logically debate, and one of them is the fact that Michael Jordon is the greatest basketball player of all time. The only people that could even begin to compare to him are Wilt, Bird, Kareem and maybe Kobe.

But yeah that's my one completely off-topic post for the day.

 

[Shining Wizard]

I like both wrestlers. They've both had great matches. Bret Hart vs. Taker was as good if not better than Taker vs. HBK. The one at ground zero. There both entertaining but if I had to choose who I like better I'd have to say HBK. He entertained me more and still does. He has more charisma and has the ability to deliver more wether he is a heel or a face. For example, remember the promo he cut when he got injured and said he lost his smile. In that promo he delivered a lot of emotion and even made me cry and some fans in the crowd cry. On a brighter note I love it when he oversells. Overselling isnt neccasarily a bad thing and its actually good because it puts your opponent over as tough. When it comes to in ring ability, its a bit harder to decide since they had different styles. Bret was mostly technical. Shawn is and was a mix of a few things. But overall I prefer HBK over Bret.

 

[reddevil69]

Err...don't mean to sound like a dick but Jordon did have more skill then Wilt. There are some things no one can logically debate, and one of them is the fact that Michael Jordon is the greatest basketball player of all time. The only people that could even begin to compare to him are Wilt, Bird, Kareem and maybe Kobe.

But yeah that's my one completely off-topic post for the day.

ha ha!...here's my off-topic response:

1. Wilt Chamberlain set all the records;
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar broke many of those records;
3. Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles, but;
4. All of those men claimed that Oscar Robertson was the baddest MF to ever step on the court...Wilt Chamberlain was a statistical cyclone -- blowing down all the records and preconceptions of the game in his wake.
Triple Double Games:
Oscar Robertson 181
Magic Johnson 138
Wilt Chamberlain 78
Larry Bird 59
Jason Kidd 86

MJ is nowhere to be found on this list... and he also got away with more travelling, push-offs and dropping the shoulders than anybody...

 

[BRandonkin]

Jason Kidd 87 and enough with the basketball is was just an example of how it is so hard to compare two greats because they were great. For every Bret Hart match, some one could name Shawn Michaels match. Bret lack the aestheticism for a good ladder match, but HBK lack the technical skills for a Submission match. They are great and that was the main point of the B=Ball argument

 

[wwenba]

I have to go with Shawn Michaels because he can adjust his style to different matches. Bret Hart is a great wrestler but his matches are all alike. He attacks your knees and legs for the Sharpshooter. He is very good but his matches are not as exciting as Shawn Michaels. When it comes to straight wrestling Bret is better but overall I think Michaels is the best.

 

[TheChamp15]

I Think That Bret is Better

 

[jazzua]

yeah difference is between the 2 is bret would make his opponent look great in the ring and would job if needed be

hbk would make himself look good in the ring and wont job to anyone he doesnt like

WOW. Um...are we forgetting the reason why the Screwjob happened in the first place???? I am not saying HBK would or would not job, that isn't the argument here. The fact that Hart wouldn't Job to HBK in Montreal was the one and only reason the screwjob was necessary. So I think saying Hart would job if need be may be the most hypocritical thing i've ever heard...

 

[jazzua]

learn what happened mate and then comment

vince agreed to let bret keep the belt that night so how is it brets fault??
do you think if bret knew this would happen that he would be so upset
and why would HBK say "i didnt know that was going to happen" when confronted by bret if he was meant to win the title

get a clue then coment

What I think he was getting at "mate" was the fact that Bret didn't want to drop the title to HBK. It's common knowledge that Hart had a Creative Control clause the last 90 days (or so) of his contract. Nobody is denying HBK's involvement or the swerve. The fact is it happened as a result of Hart going against tradition in the first place. You job on the way out, thats how it works. All he was saying, and I agree, is that you can't say Hart is Mr. Jobber of the year, when his "I will not lose to HBK" caused the swerve in the first place.

 

[reddevil69]

Jason Kidd 87 and enough with the basketball is was just an example of how it is so hard to compare two greats because they were great. For every Bret Hart match, some one could name Shawn Michaels match. Bret lack the aestheticism for a good ladder match, but HBK lack the technical skills for a Submission match. They are great and that was the main point of the B=Ball argument

Amen dude...i'm the one that made the b-ball comparison in the first place...it's nice to see that people like yourself get that instead of trying to argue semantics.....

 

[BigTony4284]

You can't argue with Bret Hart's skill as a wrestler. But you can't deny that Michaels has the techical ability and the showmanship to make him one of the best sports-entertainers ever.

 

[Kasey]

What I think he was getting at "mate" was the fact that Bret didn't want to drop the title to HBK. It's common knowledge that Hart had a Creative Control clause the last 90 days (or so) of his contract. Nobody is denying HBK's involvement or the swerve. The fact is it happened as a result of Hart going against tradition in the first place. You job on the way out, thats how it works. All he was saying, and I agree, is that you can't say Hart is Mr. Jobber of the year, when his "I will not lose to HBK" caused the swerve in the first place.

Why not have him drop the title to Undertaker? And why have Hart even wear the strap when they knew he was out the door. It was McMahon who engineered the whole exit of Hart. Hart not jobbing is one thing, but he had agreed to drop the strap at any other point before or after that event. McMahon just wanted him to do it in Canada, on a major PPV no less, and to a guy he'd just assume drop off a high-rise as shake his hand (HBK). McMahon knew what was going to happen and everything was evidenced in their conversations leading up to the event. I mean, seriously, does anyone in their right mind think that Hart was going to show up on Nitro with their belt? He was the WWF loyalist who took McMahon's low-ball 20-year agreement so he could finish in the WWF and retire as a road agent. McMahon was the one who repaid his loyalty by saying he couldn't afford to pay him (which was complete horseshit) and then have him drop a belt he shouldn't have even been wearing...on his home soil...to his worst enemy? And Bret is the bad guy? Bret had already done a clean job to Michaels at Wrestlemania. WRESTLEMANIA.

 

[ErkBono23]

Why not have him drop the title to Undertaker? And why have Hart even wear the strap when they knew he was out the door. It was McMahon who engineered the whole exit of Hart. Hart not jobbing is one thing, but he had agreed to drop the strap at any other point before or after that event. McMahon just wanted him to do it in Canada, on a major PPV no less, and to a guy he'd just assume drop off a high-rise as shake his hand (HBK). McMahon knew what was going to happen and everything was evidenced in their conversations leading up to the event. I mean, seriously, does anyone in their right mind think that Hart was going to show up on Nitro with their belt? He was the WWF loyalist who took McMahon's low-ball 20-year agreement so he could finish in the WWF and retire as a road agent. McMahon was the one who repaid his loyalty by saying he couldn't afford to pay him (which was complete horseshit) and then have him drop a belt he shouldn't have even been wearing...on his home soil...to his worst enemy? And Bret is the bad guy? Bret had already done a clean job to Michaels at Wrestlemania. WRESTLEMANIA.

he jobbed at wrestlemania and he jobbed once again for leaving...its how the game works...your going to the rival company...what more do you expect..regardless of how this situation happened it really doesn't matter...what made hart think he was actually going to get that win..he was goin to lose anyway and he lost in a conterversial fashioned that is still bitched about today..business is business..if i can't make profit off of u anymore why bother giving u something u want?...the man still bitches about it cuz he got fucked and he got fucked hard..shouldn't have left..tough..shit happens...deal...shawn stands over bret because he understand how the business works..be loyal to the man who signs your paychecks and don't bullshit like moving over to the rival company..he's entertained more, he's been a loyalist, jobbed to stars and risen stars. Of course Hart was the better wrestler but wwe was known for its ENTERTAINMENT mostly...therefore shawn stands tall because he understood the business..wrestling and mostly entertaining...

 

[TNA Smark]

Opening Statement

I think there both great wrestler but I'm going to pick HBK over Bret Hart overall. He is just far more entertaining on the mic and in general but when it comes to in ring ability I think Bret Hart has a slight advantage. Yes, both captivated my attention as well as Micheals but Bret never sold it like HBK would. HBK would prance around the ring and just be full of charisma. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't say HBK has had more classics than Bret because they seem pretty even when it comes to classics. Also in the Iron Man match, earlier in the thread someone said HBK carried the match, on the contrary I think that both Bret and HBK held their own in that classic match.

Controvery in Montreal

This is arguably the most controversial thing ever to happen in wrestling history. Bret was on his way to WCW. Vince reccomended it since he said he couldn't fufil most of Brets request in his contract despite signing it. In Bret's contract it said he would leave on a good note with him baby face and vacating the title to which Vince agreed. Then at Survivor Series he screws Bret. Why? For many reasons. Vince couldn't trust Bret and probally thought the next night he would dump the title into a trash can on WCW Nitro. However that's not a legit reason to screw Bret. You made the deal so Vince should of been a man and gone through with his word. Bret was pissed off at HBK in reality during that time and they even got into fights backstage but Vince still let them wrestle in the match knowing real sparks could fly. But lets back to the subject at hand. I just wanted my input on the above debate.

In Ring Ability

Hmm, this is a close one to call since there styles arent similar but I'm going with Bret on this one. I enjoyed all of Bret Hart's match especially the one with Undertaker. Not the one with HBK as the special referee. HBK has head good matches too but lets compare Bret vs. Taker to HBK vs. Taker at Ground Zero. It was more of a brawl then a mat wrestling like match like Bret and Taker was. Technical wrestling is my favorite type of wrestling and Bret was one of the few that really excelled in that type of wrestler.

Mic Skills

When it comes to on the mic, HBK is way better. He just has charisma and the cocky attitude that got him heat while in DX and while starting out as a heel. He also has the look of a cocky heel. Bret Hart was boring on the mic and Micheals got his points across higher. Most of the time Bret spat while talking and got loud at some points.

Overall View and Closing Statement

Bret and HBK are both great assets to a promotion in there prime but HBK is better to have if you can only sign one. He has in ring ability and is good on the mic. HBK having both in ring ability, mic skills and charisma makes him overall better than Hart who lacks mic skills and in ring ability.

 

[X]

I'd have to agree with the poster a few posts before who said that the main thing to remember is that this is a business people. As much as it would of been the kind and honorable thing to do to allow Bret to beat HBK in Montreal, it wasn't good for business. Why? Because A) The woman's champion from years before had done the same exact thing, given the honorable win in a city close to her heart, and the next night she was on Nitro dumping the woman's belt into the trash and destroying that titles credibility for a good five or six years. B) The screwjob is one of the most exciting and controversial events for a reason: you got to see real emotion fly between two guys who geniunely disliked eachother. No matter how nice it would've been to have Hart win that way, it made the PPV much more important and sought after since it. Hell they've comen out with films on the topic. Do you know how much money is in that? A ton.

Vince doesn't care about people's feelings. He cares about whats good for business---and what was good for business was screwing Bret out of the title. If you recall that event is what really kick started the entire attitude era and revolutionized wrestling.

 

[reddevil69]

For Any One Out There Who Wants To Pull The "what's Best For Business" Line With Regards To Shawn Michaels , You Need To Rember One Thing...this Is The Same Guy Who Was Asked To Go To The Smackdown Brand Last Year And Refused...he'd Rather Stay With His Little Buddy Triple H Than Do What's Best For Business...well, We're All Going To Get A Chance To See If He Knows About Doing Business Properly, Because With Undertaker Potentially Gone For The Next 6-8 Months, (if His Injury Is As Serious As They Are Reporting) The Best Move For The Company Would Be To Move Hbk To Smackdown...he Is The Biggest Star In The Wwe Next To 'taker And They Need His Presence On The Program...batista, Kennedy And Finlay Cannot Carry The Brand...raw Has Cena, Orton And Edge AND THE McMahons...i'm Sure That This Thought Has Crossed A Few Minds In The Wwe Brass And Now We'll See If Shawn Is Willing To Take One For The Team and Do Business Or If He's Going To Hang Around And Wait For Another Lame Watered Down Dx Reunion When Hunter Returns...

 

[JoshK1985]

I'm going HBK.... Bret Hart was nothing but a cry baby... He never wanted to job to anyone and he thought everyone was always out to get him. Truthfully when Goldberg kicked him in the head a ended his career I was happy. Happy to see wrestling biggest crybaby done.

 

[fsunoles89]

i never really found Hart to be very good
his match vs. Mr perfect at Summerslam was good, as was his match vs piper for the IC title
thats is though
i dont remember him for having any incredible matches
whenever i think of Hart i think of the screwjob, and those 2 decent matches
but HBK has had amazing matches thought his career
i was in to the end of this year's rumble when it was down to HBK and Taker more than i was ever in to any Hart match
HBK vs Angle,the many HBK vs HHH, HBK vs Taker, and HBK vs Cena that took place on raw last week, were all better than any Bret Hart match i've seen
so i cant care less that Hart is gone