Pick Your Poison: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart

[MBelmont24]

What makes up my mind is the fact that Bret Hart made his career in the WWF by being a great wrestler, not an entertainer. His WRESTLING is his entertainment. He didn't need to do any cheap promos to get pops. He is known as being one of the top 5 in the business by his wrestling alone, that to me is the most impressive. IN THE World Wrestling Federation mind you. Look at guys like Charlie Haas and Shelton Benjamin now, they are great wrestlers, they have the ability to put on phenomenal matches, but they can't put on good promos, which is why they are buried. Yet John Cena, who puts on great promos dont get me wrong, but god awful matches, is the top dog in the business. RIDICULOUS. This is a topic that gets me real fired up. HBK is the icon, the showstoppa, but he absolutely would not be the main event without his mic skills, BRET HART WAS THE MAIN EVENT WITH HIS WRESTLING, THAT IS ALL HE NEEDED. He truely is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. And by the way whoever mentioned the thing about HBK being the innovator of the ladder match. If I can recall, the first ladder match in the WWF was the Heart-break Kid Shawn Michaels vs. none other than Bret "the Hitman" Hart.

 

[BRandonkin]

It about putting on matches and selling anybody. People always talk about Shawn not wanting to Job but if you remember in that hit man special he said and I was wrestling this guy who I just was not going to lose to talking about Dino Bravo when he broke he injured himself. This evident that Bret was not about losing to people he did not respect, HBK being on of them late in the years.

HBK was not always given teh push that Bret recieved. The Rockers were screwed out of tag team gold from Vince kissing The Hart Foundations butt.

Bret had great salesman and a better wrestling background in Stu Hart. but HBK has a technical side, a luche libre style, an aariel style and according to many polls that best all around wrestler the WWE has seen. HBK

 

[JadeShocker]

Bret Hart was a boring person. He was not that technically sound. He was a manufactured Main Eventer. If it weren't for the fact that he was pushed so damned hard.. He'd have never made it over. That's why when he hit WCW he went downhill. WCW was not willing to push Bret the way the WWE would. Because WCW had Sting.. Who was just as technically sound, and was dripping with charisma. The only reason people want Bret back so bad is for nostalgia. Curt Hennig was twice as good in the ring, and way more charismatic. I have never been a fan of Bret, and even if he came back today.. My interest in the WWE product would not raise an inch.

Shawn Michaels.. Not so great in technical area.. But the little that he does do, he does like noone else can. I'm a little disappointed with this watered down version of himself he's been portraying as of late... I like the cocky heel much better for him. But definetely Shawn Michaels for me.

 

[reddevil69]

this is a silly debate to be having...both men are great performers in their industry...it all comes down to opinions, who one prefers to the other...to sit here and nit-pick the skill level of each of these guys is preposterous...Bret Hart was an exceptional wrestler and was the reason guys like Michaels and Benoit and Guerrero and Angle were seen as as being able to main event in the first place....Bret was the first 'smaller' wrestler to main event and carry the WWF title in the age of the 'big man'...Savage, Hogan, Warrior, were all big muscular guys that all took steroids and were six-foot-two or taller and had larger than life personas...Bret kicked open the door that the rest of the smaller guys walked through after 1992 and proved that a sound technical wrestler can get over, and be taken seriously...does that make him the greatest?....no...it makes him the first...if it was not him, it would have been somenoe else, but it was him...therefore his legacy is just that...the first performer to show McMahon that just because you weigh 275lbs does not mean you should be the champion...Shawn followed in Bret's path and carved his own legacy and place in history by being what he was:great....both these guys have had classic matches...both were great wrestlers...Bret was more of a mechanic and technician and Shawn was more of a flyer and a high spot guy...as far as promos went, Shawn may have had more "charisma", but Bret's promos were as good as they needed to be or he wouldn't have held the title 5 different times...he did not exactly come across as Tinkerbell in interviews... their Iron Man match at 'Mania is a classic because of both of them,one guy did not carry the other...watch their match from Survivor Series 1992, it's exceptional... no one, not Piper,not Savage,not Hennig,not Flair, not Razor, or Undertaker, was having matches like that in the WWF at that time, no one....Bret and Shawn were both tremendous workers and when you put 2 guys in the ring with that kind of skill it's going to be great...they both had great matches with Diesel and Undertaker....Bret had good matches with people like Hakushi and Bam Bam Bigelow as well as a couple of classics with Curt Hennig and Bulldog...Shawn had good matches with Marty Jannety, Razor Ramon and Vader...they both worked well... all this crap about Bret being over rated or Shawn being over rated is crap based on personal bias from either Bret marks or Shawn marks...also, Bret holds the distinction of being the biggest drawing main event wrestler internationally that the WWF had in the 90's...he was voted athlete of the year 3 years in a row in Germany....Shawn on the other hand was the champion during the poorest fiscal year that the WWF had, 1996...he was the top guy and his drawing power was not very strong...where were all you smart mark Michaels fans in 1996? this does not take away from his abilty as a perfromer, it is simply a fact...i am a wrestling fan and i enjoyed watching both men wrestle..they have both provided years worth of entertainment for wrestling fans and that is all that matters...Undertaker is my fave and i've been listening to people who watch wrestling with their head up their ass for the last 5 years tell me he's finished and he'll never hold a title again...well guess what?..who's the World Champ right now?...these were people that watched wrestling through biased eyes...the same type of people who would say Shawn was a better wrestler than Bret because 'they thought so' or vice-versa...neither guy is Chris Master's so just sit back and enjoy what these guys have done and in Shawns case, what he continues to do....

 

[CGros31]

I agree with Kasey. You know Shawn Michaels is just a prick, a total egotistical assclown. People talk about Bret's mic skills. He wasn't supposed to have great mic skills, his character after all was "the Hitman." He job was to be a no-nonsense great wrestler.

 

[X]

I'd have to agree with reddevil, it all comes down to a matter of opinon. Does it really matter that much? Both were masters of wrestling and both had their equal pros and cons. My opinion has always been that Michaels was the better wrestler simply because he made you feel much more personally affected by the feuds he was in, atleast for me he did. That doesn't mean Bret Hart wasn't the greatest god damn technical wrestler in the history of wrestling, though that could be argued also with guys like Jericho and Benoit.

It's all just a matter of opinion.

 

[kennyg9]

I'd have to agree with reddevil, it all comes down to a matter of opinon. Does it really matter that much? Both were masters of wrestling and both had their equal pros and cons. My opinion has always been that Michaels was the better wrestler simply because he made you feel much more personally affected by the feuds he was in, atleast for me he did. That doesn't mean Bret Hart wasn't the greatest god damn technical wrestler in the history of wrestling, though that could be argued also with guys like Jericho and Benoit.

It's all just a matter of opinion.

Respek. Keep doing work. It is a matteer of opinion both are legends. Me personally i like HBK better just felt like he drew you more into his feuds and matches and keeps you on the edge of your seat and eyes glued cause you dont know what he is going to do next. And that is HBK 1993 to present day!

 

[reddevil69]

Bret Hart was a boring person. He was not that technically sound. He was a manufactured Main Eventer. If it weren't for the fact that he was pushed so damned hard.. He'd have never made it over. That's why when he hit WCW he went downhill. WCW was not willing to push Bret the way the WWE would. Because WCW had Sting.. Who was just as technically sound, and was dripping with charisma. The only reason people want Bret back so bad is for nostalgia. Curt Hennig was twice as good in the ring, and way more charismatic. I have never been a fan of Bret, and even if he came back today.. My interest in the WWE product would not raise an inch.

Shawn Michaels.. Not so great in technical area.. But the little that he does do, he does like noone else can. I'm a little disappointed with this watered down version of himself he's been portraying as of late... I like the cocky heel much better for him. But definetely Shawn Michaels for me.

Sting was more technically sound than Bret hmmm?..he was dripping with charisma?...is that the reason he had to go rip off a comic book and film called The Crow in order to reach his drawing potential?...well, that explains everything now doesn't it....no disrespect to Sting, he was a good performer but if you want start pointing fingers at wrestlers who were pushed hard in order to get over he's a shining example...he had to completely re-tool his gimmick in order to reach his absolute peak drawing ability, with a huge marketing machine called Turner Broadcasting behind him...and what the hell is a wrestler doing using a baseball bat?...HHH's sledgehammer is bad enough...can you recall one Sting match that will be remembered as a classic such as Bret's matches with 1.British Bulldog 2.Curt Hennig 3.Owen Hart 4.Steve Austin and 5.HBK?...Flair is the only one i can think of, and that's largely because of Flair...Sting vs.Hogan was atrocious, and that is THE single most watched match Sting ever was involved in and it also was the catalyst for the downward spiral of WCW....

 

[JadeShocker]

Sting was more technically sound than Bret hmmm?..he was dripping with charisma?...is that the reason he had to go rip off a comic book and film called The Crow in order to reach his drawing potential?...well, that explains everything now doesn't it....no disrespect to Sting, he was a good performer but if you want start pointing fingers at wrestlers who were pushed hard in order to get over he's a shining example...he had to completely re-tool his gimmick in order to reach his absolute peak drawing ability, with a huge marketing machine called Turner Broadcasting behind him...and what the hell is a wrestler doing using a baseball bat?...HHH's sledgehammer is bad enough...can you recall one Sting match that will be remembered as a classic such as Bret's matches with 1.British Bulldog 2.Curt Hennig 3.Owen Hart 4.Steve Austin and 5.HBK?...Flair is the only one i can think of, and that's largely because of Flair...Sting vs.Hogan was atrocious, and that is THE single most watched match Sting ever was involved in and it also was the catalyst for the downward spiral of WCW....

Okay.. I'm a bit of a Sting mark. He wasn't that good.. But he kept the crowd excited. I would watch Sting vs Hogan before I'd watch Bret Hart vs Hogan anyday. I really despise Bret for all the bitching and whining he's done in the past. If he think the Montreal screwjob is so bad then he really lives a pathetic life, and needs to grow some testicles. He punched Vince in the face and has been destroying his reputation ever since. Everyone know that had he won at Survivor Series, he'd have gone to WCW tell everybody that he was still Heavyweight Champion. That's why he's so f-cking mad. Bret needs to realize that, while yes.. He should have a whole lot of passion for what he does. But Professional Wrestling is but a show, where you have to play your part and do what you're told. That belt did not belong to him, and there is no reason why he should decide who owns it. WWF did NOT harm Bret Hart that night.. WCW destroyed him. If it weren't for WWE Bret Hart would have been another Bryan Danielson.. Probably wrestling some great matches. But he'd have never been a millionaire, and he'd have never gotten the recognition that he's given today. If I were Vince I'd have never put Bret in the Hall of Fame. He doesn't deserve it. Stu Hart.. Yes. Bulldog... Yes. Bret is an old man who has been through alot. He's using the screwjob thing as an excuse not to return. But the truth is, he just couldn't cut it if he tried. He's not a Shawn Michaels. He's not a Ric Flair. He was just a guy who was pretty good AT HIS PEAK. No more than that. Anyways... I have hated on Bret long enough. I hope he's living a great life. But I am sick of people talking him up like his sh-t don't stink. He was good. But he was not great. Later

 

[The Dungeon]

I happen to know Red Devil, and we've had this discussion a million times!!!.

It's all about preference!!!!!!!. Me personally, I prefer Bret (as you can tell by my board name), but I love Shawn all the same today!.

Bret was indeed a techinically sound wrestler and could tell a story like no other!.

Shawn is perhaps the most complete charsimatic worker of all time, and could really get you into a match!

Bret could put people over and not even lose to them!. Someone always came out looking good because of Bret!.

Shawn has pulled off (and still does) his share of miracles as well. The way Shawn carried the Hogan feud on his own, is a testament to how great he really is.

What Bret lacked in charisma, he more than made up for in personallity. Bret's promos may not have been fancy or funny or laid back, like Shawn, but he always got his point across, he delivered them with intensity. And his heel promos in 1997 were fantastic if you ask me.

Shawn has unbelievable amounts of charisma, and it has really paid off for him. Shawn didn't need to be intense like Bret, Shawn's best promos were when he was laid back and funny!. But he's delivered some pretty intense ones, one that immediately comes to mind is the one he did leading up to the match with Diesel at "Good Friends, Better Enemies" in April of '96.

Bret's drawing power is disputed merely because of an assanine comment Flair said in his book. Bret is still to this day, the top international foreign and domestic overseas draw the WW(E)F has ever had. His feud with Owen drew pretty good houses as well in the North American market. But I'll be the first to tell you that it didn't always draw good. Certain markets it did, certain markets it didn't. Bret drew huge numbers in Canada in almost every category in 1997, but it wasn't because of cheap heat, Bret's heel promos were clever and well thought out, and take it from someone who is Canadian, he was ALREADY held in high regard in Canada, this just made it moreso. Around the time that Bret was being let go, his houses with 'Taker drew great crowds, and even he and Shamrock were drawing good as well, the match between he and The Undertaker drew the largest buyrate of the year until the Screwjob match at Survivor Series!. Bret was still a huge draw overseas by 1997 as well. So when Shawn says in his book that Bret wasn't drawing good business around the time he left, he was dead wrong!!!

Shawn himself was the WWF's top guy in the WWF's poorest fiscal year, much like Red Devil pointed out!. But just because Shawn didn't draw astrnomical numbers, doesen't mean he wasn't great to watch!!!!. Because he was, he was pratically carrying the company along with 'Taker, Mankind & Austin just coming up the card at that point. Shawn had some tremendous battles with Diesel, The Bulldog, Vader, Mankind, Sid among others! And was also carrying Raw at that point. It wasn't really Shawn's fault why the WWF was in such an abissmal state, people were gung-ho about WCW and the nWo, and the WWF's overall product wasn't exactly what you would call great!. In my opinion Shawn's big drawing power truly started when D-X did!. Shawn was on his way to finally becoming the huge draw he deserved to be until his injury cut his career short, at least temporarily. Shawn has drawn some great business these days, his feud with Hogan succeded not merely because of Hogan, because Shawn did his best to make that feud with fantastic promos, a hilarious parody, and a side of Shawn we hadn't seen in 8 years!. Shawn's a bigger draw now, then he was in the mid 90's.

Shawn's ladder match with Razor did open a door and set a whole new mark in the world of wrestling! It was something that was never seen, and truly holds a major legacy to this very day!!!

Bret's match with Austin, as well as the feud itself, pretty much swung the door open or the Attitude era, while there were shades of Attitude already done, this one truly broke the wall down, the fact it started with Bret as a top babyface and Austin as a top heel, and ended the other way around, is special in itself!

As for classic matches, Bret had a bunch!!!!. But Shawn had just as many!!!. I think it's rediculous to dispute who had more! We can't forget everyone that Bret had a whole other life before WWF, and it was called Stampede Wrestling and Japan!!. Again, this isn't to say Bret had more!!! In terms of classic matches, I'd say they both are equal. We also have to keep in mind that the business is different now than it was when Bret was in his prime!. Shawn's matches of the last 5 years have all been broadcasted on a wider course in terms of TV & PPV!. Some of Bret's greatest matches (and this is something he has said himself), weren't even on TV or PPV!. And that includes the matches as the Hart Foundation!.

Both were in great tag teams as well!.

As for the stuff they did together. They had some phenomenal matches in there respective tag teams as The Hart Foundation & The Rockers. In 1992, just after Shawn turned heel, they had some great house show matches. At Survivor Series '92, Vince new it wasn't going to draw astromical numbers, but he knew they could tear the house down with a great match. The feud itself was kind of thrown together and wasn't really the primary focus of teh show, but they needed a first big title defense for Bret, and with there top heels in other matches, Shawn was the guy, as Vince new what the two could do together. The only reason I think the Iron Man Match didn't do as well as the WWF hoped in terms of buyrate, was merely because of the bad sub-par buildup, which focused way too much on Shawn, making the outcome a little to obvious!. Neither man should be faulted for that. By the time Survivor Series '97 came around, it was so personal on and off screen, the fans were right into it. Shawn has said Bret wasn't drawing good business at the time, but like I said he was wrong, the screwjob match drew the BEST buyrate of the year for WWF, but it wasn't because Bret was facing Shawn, or that Shawn was facing Bret, it was because, they were facing EACH OTHER!!!!.

So in the end, they were both different, but it seems to me that there differences in style and everything else, is what balances them out, and makes them both great!.

 

[reddevil69]

Okay.. I'm a bit of a Sting mark. He wasn't that good.. But he kept the crowd excited. I would watch Sting vs Hogan before I'd watch Bret Hart vs Hogan anyday. I really despise Bret for all the bitching and whining he's done in the past. If he think the Montreal screwjob is so bad then he really lives a pathetic life, and needs to grow some testicles. He punched Vince in the face and has been destroying his reputation ever since. Everyone know that had he won at Survivor Series, he'd have gone to WCW tell everybody that he was still Heavyweight Champion. That's why he's so f-cking mad. Bret needs to realize that, while yes.. He should have a whole lot of passion for what he does. But Professional Wrestling is but a show, where you have to play your part and do what you're told. That belt did not belong to him, and there is no reason why he should decide who owns it. WWF did NOT harm Bret Hart that night.. WCW destroyed him. If it weren't for WWE Bret Hart would have been another Bryan Danielson.. Probably wrestling some great matches. But he'd have never been a millionaire, and he'd have never gotten the recognition that he's given today. If I were Vince I'd have never put Bret in the Hall of Fame. He doesn't deserve it. Stu Hart.. Yes. Bulldog... Yes. Bret is an old man who has been through alot. He's using the screwjob thing as an excuse not to return. But the truth is, he just couldn't cut it if he tried. He's not a Shawn Michaels. He's not a Ric Flair. He was just a guy who was pretty good AT HIS PEAK. No more than that. Anyways... I have hated on Bret long enough. I hope he's living a great life. But I am sick of people talking him up like his sh-t don't stink. He was good. But he was not great. Later

I don't know what WWE program you've been watching, but it is not Bret who keeps bringing up the screw job, it's Vince and Shawn...do you not recall last January 2006?...Vince came out and did a promo about how he screwed Bret and Shawn came out and to say enough is enough and boom!...we have HBK vs. Vince for the next 6 months...how can you say that Bret needs to get over it...he's not the one exploiting the incident in order to draw ratings and PPV buys, it's the WWE.....and the whole incident was not about the WWE belt in montreal, it was about two mens lack of respect for one another and each of them trying to assert their positon in the company's hierarchy....Bret was not "deciding" who the belt belonged to, he was excercising the creative control that was contractually within his right to do...i suppose you think that it's ok for HHH to keep burying wrestlers and steal the spotlight all the time because he's Shawns best friend?...Bret deserves to be in the hall of fame, period...you're going to tell me that Tony Atlas should be there but Bret shouldn't?...you obviously don't like Bret and are completely biased....that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but don't give us this revisionist history bullshit....and while you are at it, make a point and stick by it...your first post you said that Sting was technically sound and dripping with charisma, now you are saying he wasn't that good?..which is it?...and as far as a Hogan vs.Bret match?...there never was one and the reason is because Hogan knows that Bret would have had to carry him and expose him for what he was, all show and no go...HBK made him look ridiculous at SummerSlam 2005 from a work rate standpoint, but Hogan's got the excuse now that he's over 50, so it's ok to be carried...

 

[TheCriminal92]

HBK. You can say that Hart was a techncal wrestler BLAH BLAH BLAH. That is nice but were talking about PROFFESIONAL wrestling, not the olympics.

HBK is wayyyyy more charismatic and his ability to bring out the audiences emotions is far superiour.



but you will all see what the NEW hart foundation is all about. (look up teddy hart)

 

[The Dungeon]

Do you think I said "Shawn is the most complete charismatic worker of all time" 'cause I had nothing better to say.

Bret could get the crowd behind him quite a bit too!!!. Watch his DVD!

The New Harts will never get over like the originals!!!!

 

[The Dungeon]

And just because you may not enjoy techincal wrestling, I don't ever recall any technical wrestlers who were pushed properly ever having trouble getting over!!! So your olympics comment is quite rediculous!!!!.

And quite a few times when I read a report about a Benoit match over the last few years at a Smackdown taping or a house show, I always read that he gets a standing ovation after every good or great match he has!

 

[reddevil69]

And just because you may not enjoy techincal wrestling, I don't ever recall any technical wrestlers who were pushed properly ever having trouble getting over!!! So your olympics comment is quite rediculous!!!!.

And quite a few times when I read a report about a Benoit match over the last few years at a Smackdown taping or a house show, I always read that he gets a standing ovation after every good or great match he has!

I agree with the Dungeon....you make a very good point in your earlier post about Bret's career in Calgary and Japan...i think people forget that Bret is nine years older than Shawn when they compare them...not many people know that it was actually Bret who first introduced the ladder match into WWF...it was his suggestion and he and Shawn had a ladder match in the summer of 1992, 2 years before the one at Wresltemania between Shawn and Razor...it was not as good a match as the 'Mania bout, but the point is that Bret was doing ladder matches in 1981 with Dynamite Kid in Calgary Stampede wrestling, Shawn did not innovate the concept...also factoring in the age gap between them, people need to realize that in the iron man match at WM12,Bret was cutting pace with Shawn every step of the way and was nine years his senior...that means Bret had a decade more of wear and tear on his body, a decade more mileage on him and he still kept up with him...i'm sick of people saying Shawn carried him...i'm not picking on Shawn, i think he's great, i'm simply stating a fact....Shawn said it himself, there was no one else he was going to even attempt an hour long match with at that time other than Bret...why?...because he knew Bret was the only one in the company that could keep up with him...

 

[Emmet]

It really annoys me when people say HBK was the innovator of the ladder match. Bret has said himself he was the first one to pitch the idea of a ladder match to Vince. Bret won the first ever WWF ladder match against HBK.

HBK was good on the mic, yeah so what? Brets promo were real and intense, you could believe in what he was saying. In HBK's promos I couldnt give a shit what he was slabbering on about.About how good looking he was etc.

When it comes down to wrestling there is only one winner. Bret Hart. The best WWF/E match of all time? Bret/Austin WM13.It was voted the best match WWF/E match not that long ago right? Austin admitted himself that match put Austin on the road to stardom, so did Vince and JR. Who did HBK ever make? HBK couldnt make average wrestlers look as good as Bret could make them look.

The Iron Man Match, I reckon HBK could have only went for that long with no one other than Bret. Bret however could have went for that long with say Curt Henning or Owen. HBK didnt have the wrestling ability to carry a match that long.

Brets legacy is in alot better shape than HBK's. Bret also wasnt a prick and wouldnt put over anyone only his friends like HBK said he would do. Bret was respected by every member in the WWF locker room. HBK wasnt.

People who say Bret has only had a few classic matches havent a clue.

 

[X]

I agree with some of what you just said, but most of it was absolute bullshit.

Almost nobody saw the first ladder match with Bret in it, so that rules that out for your argument of revolutionizing the ladder match. Further more, I've seen that match, and Bret had no idea what he was doing in it. With HBK and Hall at WM10, they knew exactly how to put on a great ladder match and still to this day it is the shining example of what a good ladder match is.

And HBK WAS the innovator of the ladder match, if it wasn't for his ladder matches I doubt anyone would even be seeing ladder matches today, it probably would of just faded away like so many other gimmick matches.

Bret, though easily the most technically sound wrestler of all time, couldn't cut a promo for his life. The guy was garbage on the mic. The only time I ever thought he did good promos was in his heel run in 97 as a part of the Hart Foundation(granted, those were damn good promos but everything else he's done has been shite). HBK put on some of the best promos of the 90s, he just had it. He made you want to watch his every move to see what he'd do next.

Who did HBK ever make? Oh I don't know, half of the WWE roster? Sure, Austin's match with Hart at WM13 put him on the road to fame, but it was HBK who put over Austin for his first title run in one of the most classic WrestleMania matches of all time. Don't take offense to that either, because the Submission match from WM13 is one of my favorites, ever.

Jesus who did HBK make? Scott Hall, Kevin Nash ring any bells? They were nobodys until they started feuding with HBK.

When it comes down to wrestling, its purely a matter of opinion. I for one prefer HBK simply because he has put on more good matches then Hart did IMO. I can think of about a dozen classic Bret matches, but then I can think of about three dozen classic HBK matches.

HBK didn't have the wrestling ability to go an hour? Really? Then how did he? He and Hart were two of the only guys on the roster who could've done that. Sure, Hennig and Owen had the skills to, but absolutely NOBODY would of bought Wrestlemania 12 if the main event was an hour long match with Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect, people didn't want to see that.

And Bret wasn't a prick? Have you ever read anything about the guy? He was one of the biggest douchebags in the business, absolutely refused to put over HBK in 97, refused to put over a number of other guys like Nash too. Bret was NOT respected by everyone in the locker room. His wrestling ability, god damn right everyone respected that, but there were quite a few people who did not like Hart. Hell, thats what led to the Montreal incident.

I'd say HBK's legacy is in much better shape considering he's still in the ring, has put on a larger number of classic matches, and overall has never been bad in the ring. Anybody remember Bret in WCW? Jesus his matches were such garbage there I honestly thought they had just found some guy who looked like Hart to wrestle.

Overall, its just a matter of opinion. But base your opinions on facts, mate. HBK is by far the most widely respected man in the history of this business, and thats why he has been voted the greatest wrestler of all time dozens of times. Not to mention he won the WrestleZone tournament on here (you probably weren't here for that) over about 300 other of the best wrestlers of all times, and thats in the eyes of straight up wrestling MARKS!

 

[Emmet]

I agree with some of what you just said, but most of it was absolute bullshit.

Almost nobody saw the first ladder match with Bret in it, so that rules that out for your argument of revolutionizing the ladder match. Further more, I've seen that match, and Bret had no idea what he was doing in it. With HBK and Hall at WM10, they knew exactly how to put on a great ladder match and still to this day it is the shining example of what a good ladder match is.

And HBK WAS the innovator of the ladder match, if it wasn't for his ladder matches I doubt anyone would even be seeing ladder matches today, it probably would of just faded away like so many other gimmick matches.

Bret, though easily the most technically sound wrestler of all time, couldn't cut a promo for his life. The guy was garbage on the mic. The only time I ever thought he did good promos was in his heel run in 97 as a part of the Hart Foundation(granted, those were damn good promos but everything else he's done has been shite). HBK put on some of the best promos of the 90s, he just had it. He made you want to watch his every move to see what he'd do next.

Who did HBK ever make? Oh I don't know, half of the WWE roster? Sure, Austin's match with Hart at WM13 put him on the road to fame, but it was HBK who put over Austin for his first title run in one of the most classic WrestleMania matches of all time. Don't take offense to that either, because the Submission match from WM13 is one of my favorites, ever.

Jesus who did HBK make? Scott Hall, Kevin Nash ring any bells? They were nobodys until they started feuding with HBK.

When it comes down to wrestling, its purely a matter of opinion. I for one prefer HBK simply because he has put on more good matches then Hart did IMO. I can think of about a dozen classic Bret matches, but then I can think of about three dozen classic HBK matches.

HBK didn't have the wrestling ability to go an hour? Really? Then how did he? He and Hart were two of the only guys on the roster who could've done that. Sure, Hennig and Owen had the skills to, but absolutely NOBODY would of bought Wrestlemania 12 if the main event was an hour long match with Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect, people didn't want to see that.

And Bret wasn't a prick? Have you ever read anything about the guy? He was one of the biggest douchebags in the business, absolutely refused to put over HBK in 97, refused to put over a number of other guys like Nash too. Bret was NOT respected by everyone in the locker room. His wrestling ability, god damn right everyone respected that, but there were quite a few people who did not like Hart. Hell, thats what led to the Montreal incident.

I'd say HBK's legacy is in much better shape considering he's still in the ring, has put on a larger number of classic matches, and overall has never been bad in the ring. Anybody remember Bret in WCW? Jesus his matches were such garbage there I honestly thought they had just found some guy who looked like Hart to wrestle.

Overall, its just a matter of opinion. But base your opinions on facts, mate. HBK is by far the most widely respected man in the history of this business, and thats why he has been voted the greatest wrestler of all time dozens of times. Not to mention he won the WrestleZone tournament on here (you probably weren't here for that) over about 300 other of the best wrestlers of all times, and thats in the eyes of straight up wrestling MARKS!

I agree with some of what you said, but most of it is absolute bullshit.

Fair enough HBK's name is synonymous with ladder matches, but Bret Hart didnt need a gimmick match to make him look good, his matches made him look good.

If you look at most of HBK's classic matches, most (not all of them) but most of them invovle a gimmick match, Ladder match with Razor, HIAC with Taker, Street Fight with HHH. Bret Hart's classic matches were just a simple match, with the exception of the Submission match with Austin at WM13.

Sure Bret wasnt good on the mic until 1997, but Bret let his matches do the talking.

HBK wasnt going to put Austin over at Mania 14, Austin said that himself, then HBK changed his mind. Bret said he would put anyone over at anytime, but not HBK in Montreal, and he was right do refuse to put him over IMO. HBK wouldnt put Bret over at WM13, why should Bret return the favour?

Oh wow HBK made Nash and Hall, compared to Owen Hart, Davey Boy and Stone Cold that doesnt look so impressive.

HBK more classic matches than Bret? Bret classic matches in my view:

vs Davey Boy SS 1992
vs Mr. Perfect KOTR 1993
vs Owen WM X
vs Owen SS 1994
vs Nash SSeries 1995
vs Davey Boy IYH 5
vs HBK WM 12
vs SCSA SSeries 1996
vs SCSA WM 13
vs Taker SS 1997
vs Benoit Owen tribute 1999

Can HBK have that amount? in 7 short years?

Can you honestly blame Bret though for his WCW Tenure, Im sure your a knowledgeable enough fan to know what WCW was like? The only things Bret had any say in was the Benoit tribute match and the Goldberg spear shield angle which turned out to be pretty good.

HBK wasnt not liked by quite a few people in the WWF in the mid 1990s. Meltzer even said in his report on the screwjob that HBK apparently told Bret that he wouldnt job to him or anyone else in the territory. Is that the attitude of a good pro?

But this is what forums are all about, different opinions, you like HBK over Bret, thats fine I respect your opinion, I like Bret over HBK. We could argue to the cows come home and we'd still be debating the same issues lol.

Im not 100% sure of this but didnt not so long ago the WWE did a poll on their site of who was the greatest WWF champion of all time and Bret won it?

 

[BRandonkin]

I agree with some of what you said, but most of it is absolute bullshit.

Fair enough HBK's name is synonymous with ladder matches, but Bret Hart didnt need a gimmick match to make him look good, his matches made him look good.

If you look at most of HBK's classic matches, most (not all of them) but most of them invovle a gimmick match, Ladder match with Razor, HIAC with Taker, Street Fight with HHH. Bret Hart's classic matches were just a simple match, with the exception of the Submission match with Austin at WM13.

Sure Bret wasnt good on the mic until 1997, but Bret let his matches do the talking.

HBK wasnt going to put Austin over at Mania 14, Austin said that himself, then HBK changed his mind. Bret said he would put anyone over at anytime, but not HBK in Montreal, and he was right do refuse to put him over IMO. HBK wouldnt put Bret over at WM13, why should Bret return the favour?

Oh wow HBK made Nash and Hall, compared to Owen Hart, Davey Boy and Stone Cold that doesnt look so impressive.

HBK more classic matches than Bret? Bret classic matches in my view:

vs Davey Boy SS 1992
vs Mr. Perfect KOTR 1993
vs Owen WM X
vs Owen SS 1994
vs Nash SSeries 1995
vs Davey Boy IYH 5
vs HBK WM 12
vs SCSA SSeries 1996
vs SCSA WM 13
vs Taker SS 1997
vs Benoit Owen tribute 1999

Can HBK have that amount? in 7 short years?
QUOTE]

Michael has won match of the year since 1993 and never loss acept for the 4 years he was out. HBK classic matches include

vs Marty Janetty Royal rumble 1993
vs. Razor Ramon Wrestlemania 10 1994
vs Diesel Wrestlemania 11 1995
vs. Bret Hart Wrerstlemania 12 1996
vs Mankind 1996
vs The Undertaker In Your House 1997
vs Steve Austin with a bad back Wrestlemania 14 1998
vs All the Triple H matches of 2002
vs 5 competiors in the first Elimantion Chamber 2002
vs Kurt Angle in 2004
vs Chris Beniot and Triple H in 2005
vs Kurt Angle in 2004 Ironman Match

That is 11 in 7 years.

Bret did not make austin. British Bulldog was successful in WCW already when the came to the WWE. Owen Hart was a descent wrestler who could not get past mid card status. You can not make someone that cannot compete. Austin sold the story well. Austin became the fan favorite before the match happen. Bret turned heel because of that. Austin was already on his way up in case anyone forgot the famous 3:16 speech. I guess Jake the snake can say I made Ausin. Ahn Ahn. Austin made austin. But no one makes no one. HBK did not make Razor and Bret did not make Austin. Austin character was one of the most popular already. The respect comes from the fact that they both put on great matches. The thing is HBK has not won seven matches of the year because of osmosis. In the last four he has not even been the most popular yet is still wining match of the year. Michaels understands the fans eye and ears something I think Bret did not. Beniot and Hart are two subperb wrestlers who are good wrestlers and storytellers, but the legacy will never be the size of a hogan, and savage, or a HBK because fans like a talker too. Hart was not well liked by everyone. Many had problems with Hart and he barely talked to folks according to sunny in his video that was just to well set up about the screwjob. Hart went to WCW and could not carry it. HBK carry WWE with a lackluster group of wrestlers. When HBK was on top, Diesel was on his way out, Ramon was out. Mankind had a cult follwing. Vader was nothing. Yokozuna was on his way out. The Undertaker was doing other things. Austin was running around with Dibiase. With the exception of Sid, no one was of main event caliber.

 

[reddevil69]

I agree with some of what you just said, but most of it was absolute bullshit.

Almost nobody saw the first ladder match with Bret in it, so that rules that out for your argument of revolutionizing the ladder match. Further more, I've seen that match, and Bret had no idea what he was doing in it. With HBK and Hall at WM10, they knew exactly how to put on a great ladder match and still to this day it is the shining example of what a good ladder match is.

And HBK WAS the innovator of the ladder match, if it wasn't for his ladder matches I doubt anyone would even be seeing ladder matches today, it probably would of just faded away like so many other gimmick matches.

Bret, though easily the most technically sound wrestler of all time, couldn't cut a promo for his life. The guy was garbage on the mic. The only time I ever thought he did good promos was in his heel run in 97 as a part of the Hart Foundation(granted, those were damn good promos but everything else he's done has been shite). HBK put on some of the best promos of the 90s, he just had it. He made you want to watch his every move to see what he'd do next.

Who did HBK ever make? Oh I don't know, half of the WWE roster? Sure, Austin's match with Hart at WM13 put him on the road to fame, but it was HBK who put over Austin for his first title run in one of the most classic WrestleMania matches of all time. Don't take offense to that either, because the Submission match from WM13 is one of my favorites, ever.

Jesus who did HBK make? Scott Hall, Kevin Nash ring any bells? They were nobodys until they started feuding with HBK.

When it comes down to wrestling, its purely a matter of opinion. I for one prefer HBK simply because he has put on more good matches then Hart did IMO. I can think of about a dozen classic Bret matches, but then I can think of about three dozen classic HBK matches.

HBK didn't have the wrestling ability to go an hour? Really? Then how did he? He and Hart were two of the only guys on the roster who could've done that. Sure, Hennig and Owen had the skills to, but absolutely NOBODY would of bought Wrestlemania 12 if the main event was an hour long match with Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect, people didn't want to see that.

And Bret wasn't a prick? Have you ever read anything about the guy? He was one of the biggest douchebags in the business, absolutely refused to put over HBK in 97, refused to put over a number of other guys like Nash too. Bret was NOT respected by everyone in the locker room. His wrestling ability, god damn right everyone respected that, but there were quite a few people who did not like Hart. Hell, thats what led to the Montreal incident.

I'd say HBK's legacy is in much better shape considering he's still in the ring, has put on a larger number of classic matches, and overall has never been bad in the ring. Anybody remember Bret in WCW? Jesus his matches were such garbage there I honestly thought they had just found some guy who looked like Hart to wrestle.

Overall, its just a matter of opinion. But base your opinions on facts, mate. HBK is by far the most widely respected man in the history of this business, and thats why he has been voted the greatest wrestler of all time dozens of times. Not to mention he won the WrestleZone tournament on here (you probably weren't here for that) over about 300 other of the best wrestlers of all times, and thats in the eyes of straight up wrestling MARKS!

I agree with with most of what Emmet wrote...just because alot of people did not see the first ladder match with Shawn and Bret does not have anything to do with the fact that Shawn was not the first guy to do them...and after i read your posting i went and pulled out the video of that match and watched it...you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about..Bret didn't know what to do with the ladder, huh?..is that right?...Bret barely touched the ladder in that match so first of all how could he do anything with it if he did not hardly use it?....if you understand anything about wrestling psychology, you would know that Bret didn't use the ladder as a weapon because he was a babyface...he used the ladder for what it was supposed to be there for...to climb the damn thing and grab the fucking belt...that was babyface psychology...Shawn was the heel so he used the ladder as a weapon against his face opponent...the match was executed the way it should have been and by the standards of a 1992 house show it was a good bout...the WM match with Razor and Shawn was obviously much better because they had to step it up, it was Wrestlemania, but they used the exact same finish that Bret used against Shawn, and guess who came up with that finish?..IT WAS BRET!!.......also,Shawn did not make Razor Ramon aka Scott Hall...Ramon was not a nobody until he started feuding with Shawn...he came into the WWF in August of 1992 and was thrown into the main event picture almost immediately...he cost Randy Savage the world title in september of 1992 and began a house show program with him which led into Survivor Series in november...he was in the main event that night as Flair's partner against Savage and Mr.Perfect...his face was on the poster for the event along with the other 3....2 months later he was once again in the main event at the 1993 Royal Rumble facing Bret for the WWF title...his face and Brets are on the cover of the video and were on all the promos for the event at the time...he was not a nobody by the time he started his program with HBK 9 months later....and Kevin Nash rode Shawns coattails as his bodyguard at first yes, but his first great match was at King of the Ring 1994 with Bret, almost a year before he started feuding with Shawn and they had another re-match at Royal Rumble 1995...and Shawn might be a different person now that he's found the lord, but back then he was not universally respected in the locker room at all, that's why Undertaker had to threaten him backstage at WM14, because he was being a fuckwad and telling everyone he wasn't going to put Austin over because he knew he was leaving the company after the event.......you should take your own advice and get the fucking facts before you form an opinion....

 

[KingRalphus]

Bret embodied everything wrestling is supposed to be about. He was a tremendously hard worker and put on the best in-ring performances I've ever seen. He combines the old school style with the newer brashness. Bret was always underrated on the mic because he spoke from his heart rather than a script and people don't seem to understand that.

I see a lot of commonalities between Bret Hart and Ric Flair. Both would take a beating to the point at which the viewer thought to themselves "there's no way he can win this match!" and then he'd find a way. What Bret did better than Flair was throw a plethora of beautiful wrestling moves at his opponents that were pleasing to the eye of the viewer. Who else makes a Russian Legsweep look so good? And of course, Bret's sharpshooter was the best. Sting, Owen, Stone Cold, Rock, and Benoit's versions just aren't the same.

HBK has always been overrated on the mic. He just talks loudly with a hoarse voice and people who don't know any better think he's what being a man is about. Bret Hart was what being a man was truly all about. He always put the safety of his opponents high on his priority list, and respect was what he got off on. HBK gets off on 13 year old girls.

 

[X]

First of all where the hell do you come of talking to me like that simply because of my opinion? Get the facts before I form an opinion? Really, because here I was thinking opinions were based on personal beliefs, and not facts.

Second off, don't give me this bullshit about how Bret was the babyface so that's why he didn't use the ladder. Razor Ramon was the babyface in his ladder match with HBK and he used it as a weapon plenty. Bret didn't know what the hell he was doing with the ladder match, all he knew was that he wanted to be the first do it in the WWE. Bret is one of my all time favorite wrestlers, but he had no fucking clue what he was doing in that match and it's obvious. He just stumbles around the ring, glancing occasionally at the ladder.

The Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels debate is simply OPINION. No one is right, that means not you, and not me. But people are severely underrating Michaels in this thread. I could name many, many classic matches from the guy. Just like I could for Hart. The difference is however, that Hart burned himself out too quickly, no matter how bright a star he was, where as Michaels is STILL on the top of the WWE.

Classic HBK Matches:
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1992
Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty - RAW 1993
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania 10
Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett - IYH July 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Summerslam 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Wrestlemania 12
Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel - IYH April 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith - One Night Only 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Vader - Summerslam 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind - IYH September 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Sycho Sid - Royal Rumble 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - IYH October 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - Royal Rumble 1998
Shawn Michaels vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 14
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Summerslam 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Armageddon 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania 19
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit vs. Triple H - Wrestlemania 20
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Wrestlemania 21
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Vengeance 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Homecoming October 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. McMahon - Wrestlemania 22

Damn that is a lot of classic matches, wouldn't you agree? All of those are amazing matches. Now onto Bret...

Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect - Summerslam 1991
Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith - Summerslam 1992
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Wrestlemania 10
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Summerslam 1994
Bret Hart vs. Diesel - Survivor Series 1995
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 12
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Survivor Series 1996
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 13
Bret Hart vs. Undertaker - Summerslam 1997
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Survivor Series 1997
Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit - WCW Mayhem 1999

Seems like HBK's got quite a bit more classic bouts under his belt, wouldn't you agree? Not to mention he's been able to put on Match of the Year's three or four times and the guy is waaay past his prime.

It's all opinion. But you have to respect other's opinions.

 

[Emmet]

First of all where the hell do you come of talking to me like that simply because of my opinion? Get the facts before I form an opinion? Really, because here I was thinking opinions were based on personal beliefs, and not facts.

Second off, don't give me this bullshit about how Bret was the babyface so that's why he didn't use the ladder. Razor Ramon was the babyface in his ladder match with HBK and he used it as a weapon plenty. Bret didn't know what the hell he was doing with the ladder match, all he knew was that he wanted to be the first do it in the WWE. Bret is one of my all time favorite wrestlers, but he had no fucking clue what he was doing in that match and it's obvious. He just stumbles around the ring, glancing occasionally at the ladder.

The Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels debate is simply OPINION. No one is right, that means not you, and not me. But people are severely underrating Michaels in this thread. I could name many, many classic matches from the guy. Just like I could for Hart. The difference is however, that Hart burned himself out too quickly, no matter how bright a star he was, where as Michaels is STILL on the top of the WWE.

Classic HBK Matches:
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1992
Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty - RAW 1993
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania 10
Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett - IYH July 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Summerslam 1995
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Wrestlemania 12
Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel - IYH April 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith - One Night Only 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Vader - Summerslam 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind - IYH September 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Sycho Sid - Royal Rumble 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - IYH October 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - Royal Rumble 1998
Shawn Michaels vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 14
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Summerslam 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Armageddon 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania 19
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit vs. Triple H - Wrestlemania 20
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Wrestlemania 21
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Vengeance 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Homecoming October 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. McMahon - Wrestlemania 22

Damn that is a lot of classic matches, wouldn't you agree? All of those are amazing matches. Now onto Bret...

Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect - Summerslam 1991
Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith - Summerslam 1992
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Wrestlemania 10
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Summerslam 1994
Bret Hart vs. Diesel - Survivor Series 1995
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 12
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Survivor Series 1996
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold - Wrestlemania 13
Bret Hart vs. Undertaker - Summerslam 1997
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Survivor Series 1997
Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit - WCW Mayhem 1999

Seems like HBK's got quite a bit more classic bouts under his belt, wouldn't you agree? Not to mention he's been able to put on Match of the Year's three or four times and the guy is waaay past his prime.

It's all opinion. But you have to respect other's opinions.

To be fair HBK has been wrestling alot longer than Bret Hart as a singles wrestler. Out of your list this is the HBK matches I regard as classic:

Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania 10
Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart - Wrestlemania 12
Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel - IYH April 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith - One Night Only 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind - IYH September 1996
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - IYH October 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Summerslam 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H - Armageddon 2002
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania 19
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit vs. Triple H - Wrestlemania 20
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Wrestlemania 21
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - Vengeance 2005
Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Homecoming October 2005

I havent seen the 2 matches with KA at Homecoming and Vengeance or the HHH match at Armageddon 2002 either so ill leave them there.

 

[Kasey]

Seems like HBK's got quite a bit more classic bouts under his belt, wouldn't you agree? Not to mention he's been able to put on Match of the Year's three or four times and the guy is waaay past his prime.

It's all opinion. But you have to respect other's opinions.

Not that I'd argue the quality or validity of the Michaels matches you listed...because they're all solid. However, your list of Hart matches only goes as far back as 1991, and is a tad lean. Michaels had only a two or three year run as a tag vet in the WWF, whereas Hart wrestled there since 1984 and his career there was predominantly spent as a tag man (albeit a WAY more illustrious one than the Rockers had). There are a few I'd amend on Hart's list that were matches he definitely did great, even if they weren't all in the ultra-televised WWF heyday. In terms of singles, Michaels has the slight edge because of his longevity regarding his return performances and the extra matches he's been able to bleed out of these last few years from time to time. If you stack up the cumulative effort (including the tag years and the pre-WWF showings) I feel Hart has the overall edge.

These are just a few that I feel you forgot to mention on Hart's end of things during the nineties end of things:

Stampede - Matches against Dynamite Kid (redefined North American Juniors wrestling)
WWF - Match against Yokozuna at Wrestlemania XI (aside from the finish)
WWF - Match against Mr. Perfect from King of The Ring 1993
WWF - Match against Jinzei "Hakushi" Shinzaki from In Your House in 1995-6
WWF - Match against Davey Boy from In Your House in 1996
WWF - Match against Owen Hart on the inaugural edition of Action Zone 1994
WWF - Fatal 4-way at In Your House against Vader, Austin, and Undertaker
WCW - Match against Ric Flair on Nitro in 1998
WCW - Owen Hart tribute against Benoit on Nitro in 1999

 

[X]

Ohhh damn I can't believe I missed Bret's match with Hakushi! I used to love that match. And to be perfectly honest, I know it'll ruin my fanboy reputation, but I have only seen maybe one or two matches of Bret's from Stampede, so thats why I didn't even touch that. I didn't touch Shawn's AWA career either, because the only match of his from there that I've seen was off of the Vault DVD.

True though you definately listed some that I forgot. I was actually thinking very much of adding the fatal four way, but decided against it in the end.

But come on mate, his match with Yokozuna? Both of them, Wrestlemania 9 and 10 were utter crap. No fault of Bret's though, more because Yoko couldn't put on a good match if his life depended on it. The only time I ever really liked the guy's wrestling and thought it was good was during his feud with the Undertaker resulting in that classic casket match(which btw had the greatest promo of all time before it with Undertaker shrouded in fog...damn that still creeps me out.) and his tag team tenure with Owen Hart.