Omega Conference Semi-Final 1: DirtyJose -vs- Dave

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Oct 31, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which of Kane’s gimmick was more effective: Masked or Unmasked?

    This is a conference semi-final match in the Debater's League. DirtyJose is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I am DirtyJosé, and I will be debating that the masked Kane gimmick was more effective than his unmasked persona. I will be going first. Good to get one more dance with you Dave.
     
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  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    KANE: MASKED OR UNMASKED?​


    The Big Red Machine Kane may be one of the most iconic WWE performers of today. A lot of that has to do with his look and feel. Kane was designed to be a counterpoint to The Undertaker, and his costume reflected this. His red and black gear contrasted The Undertaker's more cool colored theme, and no one article of this gear made Kane stand out more than his instantly recognizable mask.

    WHY MASKED KANE WAS MORE EFFECTIVE
    [​IMG]

    1. The mask was just that damn cool.

    As a young boy during the early days of "Attitude", I could think of not much else in wrestling that was as cool as Kane's mask. It remained cool as time went on, even as other masked or similarly heavy-handed gimmicks lost out to gritty, more relatable ones. The mask helped give Kane that "Old School" vibe than enabled him to standout during the tumultuous late 90's - early '00's. Visibility and marketability are two extremely import aspects of Pro Wrestling, and Kane's mask did both: it drew attention to Kane like nothing else has in his career to date, and it remained a WWE merchandise stand staple for many many years.

    2. The mask made the monster.

    Kane's longstanding reputation as a single minded engine of destruction is built directly off of the mask. With it, he was "The Big Red Machine"; silent, expressionless, and deadly. By limiting Jacobs to using body language (and a voice box) to get ideas and emotions across to viewers, the mask immediately made him a very clearly different beast than anyone else WWE had. Getting Kane over required that he be established as a monster. The mask took away the humanity of Glenn Jacobs and left us only the monster, and without that the gimmick wouldn't have become as long lasting and memorable as it is today.

    3. Without the mask, Kane is just a guy.

    While his performance has been great, Kane's big angle this summer shows his weakness after losing the mask; without it, his only big payoff is his tie to The Undertaker. It may seem tough to argue that the unmasked Kane isn't as effective a gimmick as he sits on the longest world title reign of his career, but keep in mind that this is the only worthwhile development for Kane since losing the mask back in 2003 besides a forgettable ECW Title reign and being dropped from the Lita/Edge angle in favor of Matt Hardy. Unmasked, Kane feels bland and empty; it's interesting that gaining the ability to speak and show facial expressions has only taken away from the fury and rage that were trademarks of Kane in his early days.

    Make mine masked!​


    "Effective gimmick" to me means cementing the concept of character in the viewer's minds, and the mask did exactly that. I may have chosen differently if the question had been which gimmick I enjoy more or which gimmick is more "with the times", but based on effectiveness I have to insist that without his time in the mask Kane would be nothing, and Glenn Jacobs would probably be onto horrible gimmick #54. Masked Kane was a more effective gimmick, and without it there would be no modern unmasked Kane.
     
  4. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Have you ever been in a job that you hated? Or rather, have you ever encountered an aspect of that job that meant your overall enjoyment of what you were doing was broken daily? Kane is a man who has endured that feeling. Like many of use, he was put into a scenario that really wasn't working for him and the much-idolised mask of The Big Red Machine was inevitably taken off. The debate that I find myself embroiled in really made me think about this question and the effectiveness of Kane, on a much greater scale.

    After a lot of questioning, I have come to the conclusion that masked Kane didn't really have the same effect as unmasked Kane and I will set out to prove to you why that is true.

    [​IMG]

    1. An unhappy worker is not an effective worker.

    This question really applies on a personal level and I am sure that everyone reading this debate will have had times when their job just seems unbearable. I know that I have my fair share of grievances when I go to work and when you cannot solve them, it creates a lack of motivation and effort on everyone's part. Right now, at my work, we have a huge staff drive being prepared because our workers have very low morale. The one thing that keeps coming back to me from my subordinates, is that they wish they had more liberty in their role.

    Whilst this may seem like an immediate digression, it is actually a very good point in regards to Kane. Kane has been quoted as saying that he and Vince McMahon made the joint decision to get rid of his mask. Now, if you were in a situation where you were being forced to carry out a role that you really could change if you wanted to, wouldn't you go ahead and make the change?

    Really, for me, it comes down to doing what makes you happy and Kane did that. When he removed his mask, he became a better worker because he had made the conscious judgement to change his gimmick. Now, if you are the one who wants to change your gimmick, do you really think it is having the desired results?

    2. Success did not lend itself to a masked Champion

    A lot of people go on about Kane's Championship run as he feuded with Stone Cold Steve Austin and when we see that he is now becoming a great Champion for the Smackdown brand these days, we begin to question if he could have been more of a star if the WWE had given him more of a Championship reign in 1998.

    The short and simple to that question though, is no.

    At this point in time, Kane was not the most attractive personalities on the WWE roster. Not only was he covered from head to toe, but he was also unable to speak with any great manner. He would grumble and groan and no one could really make out what he was saying. I recall watching an Austin DVD when I was younger and they had actually subtitled what Kane was saying in his promos against Austin.

    To me, that is not the mark of a Champion. A Champion needs to be a personality that the fans could relate to and cling onto. Masked Kane, whilst being a good gimmick, was never that and if he continued to wear the mask, I am damn sure that he would not be the World Heavyweight Champion right now.

    3. His ultimate success speaks volumes.

    When you talk about effectiveness, you talk about accomplishing something and there is no higher honour in the WWE than to be a World Champion. Whether that is the WWE Championship or the World Heavyweight Championship that you are holding, you know you are doing something right. People don't just happen into these situations and Kane is a great example of this.

    His longest Championship reign as a masked superstar was less that one day and he never lived that down. He was little more than a joke at this point and up until 6 months ago, we would never have thought that he could have been the Champion again. His first reign basically put the dampers of Kane and his development. We can talk until we are blue in the face about how he might have gone from strength to strength if the WWE had kept the Championship on him in 1998 but at the end of the day, his first reign did more harm than good.

    However, as an unmasked superstar, Kane was able to become a personality that the fans could get behind and relate to. He almost become more human and now the risk to take off the mask, the only thing that really set him apart from the crowd in the 90's, seems to have paid off.

    When you are a masked superstar, you automatically have a distinguishing feature that you can play off of in US wrestling. I can count the number of mainstream masked superstars on one hand these days. It gives them an identity and a unique gimmick that differs from masked man to the next. However, that is all they are at the end of the day. When you make the decision to take off your mask, you need to be sure that you have what it takes to define yourself in a completely new way and Kane has did that. His recent success leaves me in no doubt that he has been more effective as a wrestler than he was as a masked superstar.
     
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  5. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    1. An unhappy worker can still have an effective gimmick.

    Never mind that the Masked Kane gimmick is what made Glenn Jacobs salvageable as a worker. Have you ever seen him wrestle as Issac Yankem? The Christmas Creature? No doubt that Glenn was happy to see the mask go, but what bearing does that have on how effective the gimmick was? The way I see it, Masked Kane was effective because it gave Glenn Jacobs enough recognition as a legitimate star to allow him to break into the realm of the unmasked and remain there.

    Yes. If the Masked Kane gimmick wasn't effective at putting Kane over, he wouldn't remained the WWE staple that he has been for over 10 years. He very easily could have debuted in an angle with Undertaker and been forgotten within a year. He wouldn't have been the first man to have brought in against the Deadman to fade away.

    2. Success does not depend upon being Champion

    Saying a gimmick isn't great or effective simply based on title reigns is like saying no NFL Quarterback is worth anything without an impressive amount of Super Bowl victories under their belt. Gimmicks aren't measured by the number and length of title reigns they generate. Effectiveness is measured by how much of an impact that the gimmick made upon the viewer. Effectiveness is measured by how recognizable the gimmick makes the performer to the viewers, and easily they can relate to it.

    Really, let's take a look at Unmasked Kane's success: His current World Title reign has arrived 7 years after losing the mask, which tells me that the gimmick can't be that effective if that's how long it took build up momentum for the gimmick. His previous title reign was an ECW Title reign that lasted a matter of months. It's not as if his title history post-mask is impressive enough to declare an undisputed success; I simply don't see any reason to consider Unmasked Kane a more effective gimmick by these standards.

    3. His ultimate success speaks volumes of how critical his masked gimmick was.

    His first title reign was indeed a blip, hence why I didn't attempt to use it as the measure of the gimmick's effective. I will point out that it came during a time when quick title changes occurred on television regularly. I do feel that you are confusing "gimmick effectiveness" with the politic game. World titles aren't given to he who has the most effective gimmick; world titles (in the WWE) are more often than not given to guys who McMahon feels best represents his company. Masked Kane gets a footnote of a championship reign; is that the gimmick's fault, or a sign of McMahon's hesitance to get behind an at-the-time still unproven performer?

    Except for the 7 years of mid-carding (where as Masked Kane was almost always a "tier 2" world title contender). Except that even though he uses words now, the only personality I've seen out of this gimmick was the beginning of his current push. Even his push now can be viewed as not so much faith in his gimmick at this point but as merely part of the build up to The Undertaker's retirement. Finally, I don't see how Kane becoming "more human" would have been of any interest if it wasn't for the effective build of Kane as a monster.

    But the gimmick goes deeper than just in-ring accolades such as titles. What Kane merchandise gets pushed anymore? Does any of it come close to the popularity of the Kane Masks? Why do most every toy versions of Kane include a mask? The answer is because Masked Kane is to this day how most wrestling fans remember Kane, which tells me that the gimmick must have been that damn effective.
     
  6. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Sorry for being so tardy, as per usual. I just came off a 13 hour shift and I am absolutely drained. I will do my best though, you deserve it.


    If the mask was what made Glenn Jacobs a salvageable worker, then why is he still around. God knows the mask is long since gone and yet, here we are. Glenn Jacobs is still the World Heavyweight Champion and he is still one of the most dominating superstars on the WWE books. The fact of the matter is that the only think that is missing from the Kane of now, compared to the Kane of yesteryear, is that he no longer wears a mask.

    Hoe happy someone is when they work has a direct correlation to how effective a worker they are. It is no secret that Kane and Vince McMahon were the two pioneers of getting rid of Kane's mask and there must have been something to create this decision. Was Kane happy in the mask? No, he wasn't. Max Messmer once wrote that when you avoid low morale in your workplace and role within a company, you avoid stress and burnout.

    Tell me, how effective would Kane's mask have been if he was put on the shelf thanks to being burned out and stressed? The fact of the matter is that the mask may have been what set him apart from the crowd when he debuted, I will give you that., However, Kane was unhappy with it and when the person behind the mask is no longer on board with an idea, how effective can anything be?

    Baring in mind that Kane has now been unasked for longer than he was wearing a mask, I fail to see your point. A gimmick will get you so far and the gimmick of Kane has not really evolved over the last 13 years. In fact, they still call him The Big Red Machine. Nothing has changed about Kane, other than the fact that he has lost the mask.

    Now, the only possible way of defining success with the same gimmick, is looking at what he has accomplished. Like it or not, the mask of Kane was not the gimmick, it was an accessory to his character. The gimmick is “a screwed up psychopath, who may or may not have been burned as a child”. So, now that we have established that the gimmick is the exact same, we have to look at how successful he has been as both personas.

    In my opinion, he has been more successful as unmasked Kane. It all comes back to the point about being happy with your work. Being happy leads to more confidence and self-esteem. Would Kane have had the tantalising performances that he pulled off in his recent promos against The Undertaker if he was still wearing a mask? That is debatable. However, what we do know is that he gave some of his best and most note-worthy performances as an unmasked performance in this recent feud.

    Just a quick question. Are you implying that success is not based around how successful your gimmick is?

    We only need to look at The People's Champion or The Rattlesnake to see that having a great gimmick is one of the keys to getting to the top of the mountain. Without any connection to the fans, no one is ever going to buy you as a credible champion. If unmasked Kane was not the best candidate for the World Heavyweight Championship reign, do you honestly think that he would have been given it anyway?

    The fact of the matter is that success can only be measured in Championship success. We have neither the tools or the effort levels needed to ask everyone involved whether they liked the gimmick better with or without the mask. What we do have, however, is a list of accomplishments that Kane has managed and there is no higher accomplishment than being a World Heavyweight Champion. His gimmick has remained the same really, bar a few minor details. The only difference is the mask and he has been more successful without it, in my opinion.

    So, what you are saying is that the Championship reign he is currently enjoying, as one of the most dominating and thought-provoking superstars, should be written off because it has taken 7 years for it to take off?

    That is a crock of shit, to be honest.

    I could say that his initial masked gimmick was terrible because he had no notable success at all. He won the WWF Championship, sure. However, he only held it for less than a day and it was rather underwhelming. His masked gimmick lasted 6 years and all he had to show for it was a one-day Championship reign and an unhappy persona beneath the mask.

    No, what you have done is quietly brush that under the carpet but I feel it is very pertinent to this debate. Success in Championship reigns is the only concrete pice of evidence we have to look at when we are comparing these two persona’s of Kane. Yet, you realise that his unmasked career has been far superior to his masked persona in terms of Championship success and you try and steer the debate away from that subject.

    Well, that is completely untrue.

    Let us look at some of the people who have been a Champion in recent times in the WWE.

    Sheamus,
    John Cena,
    Randy Orton,
    Jack Swagger,
    CM Punk,
    Kane.

    These are the guys who best represent the company as a whole, are they? Randy Orton, who once kicked an old man in the head and put him in a “coma”? Or is Kane who put his brother in a vegetative state who is the face of the company? Or perhaps it is CM Punk who is the best representative of the company and what is trying to do, with his holier than thou attitude and his slurs on the people who flock to see the WWE product.

    To say that Vince puts Championships on those who represent the company best, is ludicrous. The mainstream media would tell you that John Cena is probably the best role-model for everyone and he is not the WWE Champion? Why is that?

    If it was McMahon's hesitance to get behind an unproven performer, than why give him the title in the first place? Look at what happened to Jack Swagger, Sheamus and CM Punk for instance. When they won their first Championship, they were all very much an unknown quantity. Yet, they all achieved that success. Vince has no problem getting behind unknown quantities. He has done it in the past and he will do it again in the future. The problem with masked Kane taking the belt was that no one bought into it and given that he could barely talk at this point, the gimmick was lost on many.

    Oh! I must have forgot that most all of Kane's career as a masked superstar was in the main event of every Raw, Smackdown and PPV.

    Let's face it, Kane has been as up and down in the ladder as the best of them. He has been in the main event and he has had his fair share of shitty feuds. The fact of the matter is that Kane's career as a masked superstar peaked when he won the Championship from Austin and lost it 24 hours later.

    However, as a masked superstar, Kane is going on to write a whole new chapter in his career. He has become a very dominant superstar on Smackdown and is the current World Heavyweight Champion. There is more room for improvement in his current persona and that is the most telling feature of all. Kane's masked period is over and, save for a couple of moments, was completely underwhelming. His recent push and his unmasked career is still going strong. He continues to be the most dominant superstar on Smackdown and that legacy is still growing now.
     
  7. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Thanks, though I suspect work has taken it's toll on you: I was the late one, you are doing just fine. :p

    Without the original Masked Kane gimmick, Glenn Jacobs would still be pulling down gigs like Diesel 2. It's been noted since he was a rookie back in Memphis that he was an outstanding worker in many areas, but he also had many drawbacks (such as a certain look) that kept him saddled with shitty gimmicks. Masked Kane was his breakout, it was the first time Glenn Jacobs really became somebody, both in kayfabe and in the eyes of the industry.

    It was certainly effective at getting him a following and developing a legacy that put McMahon at ease and open to removing the mask. I don't like to go into "this came first, so it's most important" kind of thinking, but in this case it's very true. From the stand point of the effectiveness of the mask on Kane's career, there is pre-mask Glenn Jacobs who for all intents and purposes was a nobody, and there is post-mask Kane who needed the time behind the fake face to actually connect to a crowd for the first time. Regardless of whether he outgrew it or not, the impact of the gimmick, and it's effectiveness in furthering his career, cannot be denied.

    But as both you and I have stated elsewhere, things have changed about him. He's far more human now. Much of the mystique of Kane was lost to give way to his human sensibilities. Angles like his teased entrance into DX simply wouldn't work today because by being more human Kane lost what made him exciting.

    I disagree. Masked Kane was a vengeful entity, full of rage and unpredictable. Modern Kane is no more than your typical tough guy. The mask was indeed more than an accessory to the gimmick; no one talked about how cool Kane was because of his body suit. It was central to the character in terms of kayfabe origin and his ability to stand out as a character. Modern Kane simply can't do the same kind of angles Masked Kane could because the gimmicks are worlds apart (hence this debate).

    One angle in 7 years does not show to me the superiority of the gimmick. It certainly shows the maturity of the performer and is a testament to Jacobs' long dedication to his craft and to impressing the right people, but if unmasked Kane was really as effective as you claim it is, why was he doing mid card work the majority of those 7 years (while, again, Masked Kane was almost always a "tier 2" player on the heels of the world title)?

    Nope. I am implying that championships are not the be-all-end-all measuring stick for success, and certainly it isn't what I consider the mark of an effective gimmick.

    If we were coming up on Undertaker's retirement like we are now, yes. Then again, The Undertaker is probably the reason why Kane is the best candidate for the WHC in the first place. Again, I never said a gimmick isn't important to success; I said that championships aren't what the effectiveness of a gimmick is measured by. There have been some damn fine gimmicks to have come and gone without world title reigns.

    Mr. Perfect
    Jake the Snake
    Rick Rude
    Ted DiBiase
    Razor Ramon
    Roddy Piper

    Each of these men have at least two things in common: all of them had stellar gimmicks the likes of which have rarely been matched in modern times, and none of them ever won a world title. By your reasoning, none of these men were successful or made any meaningful accomplishments because they never carried the big strap. I know you can do better than to base this debate off of a list of titles.

    I didn't say it should be written off, but as I've stated before, I don't think it's a sign of the effectiveness of the gimmick so much as the maturity of Glenn Jacobs. If the gimmick was effective, one would believe he'd have received better treatment during those 7 years than instances like being yanked from an angle mid-way through it for Matt fucking Hardy.

    He had a gimmick that fans recognized instantly. He had not only a WWF Championship (as short as it was), but became the third man in WWE history to become a Grand Slam Champion by also holding the Hardcore, Intercontinental, and World Tag Team Championships. He also had more respect and market exposure than at any other point in his career. Really though, the point I'm making is that to hear it from you Kane has been tearing it up since 2003, which simply isn't the case.

    Once again, I simply don't believe that lists on Wikipedia are the only tools at our disposal for this debate, nor do I feel that championships alone are the only measure of success or the effectiveness of a gimmick. Also, if you're going by a broad "championship success" record, Masked Kane held many more titles than Unmasked Kane anyway, so what's your point?


    Let's take a look at those guys again:

    Sheamus - workout partner of Triple H and his hand picked successor
    John Cena - dedicated company man who was groomed for the spot from day 1.
    Randy Orton - 3rd Generation superstar who has had McMahon's support from day 1.
    Jack Swagger - highly recommended by Jim Ross, also the one who hired/scouted him.

    We're left with CM Punk and Kane. It's near undeniable that Kane's push is a result of Undertaker's looming retirement. CM Punk has been booked to lose a title as a result of politics and "company standards". Not so untrue at all.

    Was also the youngest champion in history and has been groomed for the main event since the days of "Randy News Network".

    When the angle started, he was quite the face.

    As he passed the belt back and forth with Jeff Hardy, one of the biggest faces WWE has ever seen in the modern era.

    Why do you think that only faces can represent the company? The man with the belt is usually the first name to come up in conversation about wrestling, and McMahon handpicks which ones will be there. Did I say that they represent the company at all times? They represent what McMahon wants out there as the image of the best wrestler. I didn't say McMahon wasn't free to change his mind about it.

    The problem with your logic is that the belt wasn't pulled from Kane back then because "fan's didn't buy it". This was back in Monday Night War era WWE, where title changes would occur on free tv. I fail to see where "fans wouldn't buy it" when they never had a chance to settle into it during the fast paced angles of the time.

    With and/or against the likes of Steve Austin, Mankind, Triple H, Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, and The Rock, in case you didn't know.

    Kane since 2003 has been nothing but embarassing. Miscarriage angles? Kane vs Drew Hankinson in a bad suit? What about that hot Kane/Khali angle? Whew!
     
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of Debate: Draw
    Great understanding and layout by both. Lack of conclusion from neither as well.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Both were late at one point, also doing this on no conclusion from either.

    Informative: Draw
    All the information I kept seeing was more opinion based outside of the facts many know already today. There was ton of info I was expecting to be used and neither man really dug it out. I saw someone said than Glen Jacobs has been quoted to dislike being masked, where is the quote?!

    Persuasion: Draw
    While both are great debaters, the debate heavily lacked. It could be put down to a number of reasons but neither man went far enough with their understanding, information or going for a killer point. Both men had each other countered, it almost seemed like both debaters were playing it safe knowing what their oppoent could do.

    Final Score
    DirtyJose: 2.5
    Dave: 2.5
     
  9. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Posts were nearly identical in layout, so I am going for the draw here

    Point - Draw

    Punctuality: Pheonix says you both were late, I'll go with that

    Point - Draw

    Informative: Very little and what there was wasnt backed up, another draw fella's

    Point - Draw

    Persuasion: This is a really hard debate, but both guys could've brought a lot more to this one as well as Pheonix said. Such as it is, I'll take a leaf out of tdigles book, 1.5 points for Jose and .5 for Dave.

    At the end of the day, I think he was right when he said that Masked Kane gave Glenn Jacobs a kick start and many years in and around the main event, Dave loses this mainly for not pointing out that Kane's been a joke while he's had the mask on at certain points as well. Jose also pointed out that his masked gimmicks legacy has paved way for the belated success he's having now.

    My score

    DirtyJose - 3
    Dave: 2
     
  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity: I'll give Dave the point here; good opening post.

    Punctuality: Jose saw the debate to the end.

    Informative: Both guys brought in a sufficient amount of information. I'll split the point.

    Persuasion: Jose wanted to win this debate, and his effort gets him the points here.

    Dave: 1.5
    Jose: 3.5
     
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Draw
    These guys have such similar styles of clarity with their posts. It's a good thing those styles are clear, concise, enjoyable, and make them stand out as two of the best debaters this year.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Already said by others.

    Informative: Draw
    I've got to agree with Phoenix here. I also noticed that point about Kane being "unhappy" because of wearing that mask. Funny, since I've never heard such a thing. Maybe if there were some FACTS to back it up I'd be more convinced.

    Come on, guys... it's a DEBATE. Not a coffee table chat.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    Both men went back and forth with many opinions, some facts, and great counterpoints. However, call me crazy, but every time I got done reading one of DirtyJose's posts I found myself nodding my head and taking his side. After all, that's a true sign of persuading someone in a debate. Dave is absolutely incredible, but I think the Dirty One got the edge here.

    Well done, guys.

    Final Score
    DirtyJose: 3.5
    Dave: 1.5
     
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Draw
    These guys have such similar styles of clarity with their posts. It's a good thing those styles are clear, concise, enjoyable, and make them stand out as two of the best debaters this year.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Already said by others.

    Informative: Draw
    I've got to agree with Phoenix here. I also noticed that point about Kane being "unhappy" because of wearing that mask. Funny, since I've never heard such a thing. Maybe if there were some FACTS to back it up I'd be more convinced.

    Come on, guys... it's a DEBATE. Not a coffee table chat.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    Both men went back and forth with many opinions, some facts, and great counterpoints. However, call me crazy, but every time I got done reading one of DirtyJose's posts I found myself nodding my head and taking his side. After all, that's a true sign of persuading someone in a debate. Dave is absolutely incredible, but I think the Dirty One got the edge here.

    Well done, guys.

    Final Score
    DirtyJose: 3.5
    Dave: 1.5
     
  13. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    1,607
    The final score for this debate has DirtyJose with 12.5 points to Dave's 7.5.

    Congratulations to DirtyJose, who will be moving onto the Omega Conference finals!!
     
    DirtyJosé likes this.
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