Sure he didn't take leaves to change gimmicks, and sure he switched them at all kind of moments for the sake of switching them to fit a situation. Yet it didn't make Mick Foley the person more effective as much as it made the gimmicks more effective to help Mick Foley into the situation for whichever match, storyline or segment he was supposed to be in.
Basically what you're saying here, whether you mean to or not, is that Foley was switching gimmicks and the fans (kayfabe wise) were completely fooled, each and every time. I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Fans in the late 90's were much, much smarter than they had been during previous era's, and the WWF knew this.
That's why Foley could use several gimmicks at one time, and still not be "gimmicky." He was being real. I've said this time and time again, but I feel it's important to nail this point home; gimmicks were dying and/or dead in 1999-2000 (minus Taker and Kane). Realism sold, and the WWF knew it. That's why it was funny and/or exciting to the crowd for him to change up gimmicks when he felt like it. The WWF turning Mick Foley from a wrestler who was gimmick-heavy into a wrestler who used those gimmicks as nothing more than a prop was very, very effective.
Without all of these gimmicks, there wouldn't be any Mick adapting to various situations by simply changing gimmicks. We'd have one big guy who were able to do everything more or less. So the fact that Mick had gimmicks helped him in the terms that he got popular by featuring one type of wrestler for one variety of matches.
I have agreed with you on this point before. Yes, I get it. I have never said that his gimmicks were not popular. I've also said they were effective. But none of those gimmicks can match Mick Foley, the man, in terms of connecting with the crowd. Foley combined those gimmicks, and it was no secret. The curtain had been pulled up. The crowd was wise to his act, and the WWF encouraged this abandonment of kayfabe. And as he grew out of only using those gimmicks, the affection the crowd had for Mick grew as well, making him far more effective than before.
And you mention it yourself. He used the gimmicks to get pops. Why is that? Because they were popular, and helped Mick Foley actually be worth a damn.
We're not only talking about popularity. We're talking about what was most effective. When I think of what effective means in the pro wrestling business, I don't
just think of popularity. I think of drawing power and character as well. I think of the ability to actually connect to the crowd, going beyond superficial pops. Mick Foley was the whole package, the sum of all parts.
Yet breaking kayfabe is something that in many occasions never does any good for a character. The only reason it did so well for Mick Foley wasn't due to the persona of Mick, yet because of the strength and popularity of the numerous gimmicks he had. He was able to move from gimmick to gimmick because people cared more or less equally for all of the gimmicks. It's an inevitable fact that Mick Foley got popular due to his gimmicks, and remained popular due to his past with the gimmicks.
Of course Mick's gimmicks helped him get over. And yes, they helped him stay popular. But that doesn't mean that any one of those gimmicks, at any time, were as effective as the much more realistic "Mick Foley".
Characters like Cactus and Mankind can deal with pain. People saw those characters as more of an object for entertainment purposes as opposed to an actual human being. When they began to connect with Mick on a more personal level, Foley became more than a "character." In the late 90's, as I've said before, wrestling was about realism. It was about identifying with the guys you were watching. No wrestler was more effective when it came to connecting with the audience than Mick Foley.
Yet it's doubtful that Mick Foley would've ever been regarded as the Hardcore Legend if it wasn't for Cactus Jack, or Mankind for that sake. Hell even Dude Love, whenever he was wrestling with all of these gimmicks, you were more or less guaranteed he'd take a hurtful bump.
Once again, I'm not downplaying those characters. I'm saying, in the mainstream wrestling world, when measuring success, they weren't as effective as Foley himself.
And sure he might have done the same as simply Mick Foley. Yet he would've been nowhere as exciting if he hadn't been under a gimmick.
This really doesn't matter, but you know this how? Sounds like a big, gaping assumption to me.
But that's not the point. The point is that Mick Foley without the gimmicks would've been a very average Joe. With the gimmicks however he stood out among a locker room of gimmicks and wrestlers that were much more worthwhile than plain ol' Mick Foley.
Let's just say I agree with this assumption you are making, and I'm not saying I do. Mick Foley, from the early 90's up until King of the Ring 1998, didn't stand out more than most. He was an upper mid card guy, who was over, but not on a consistent main-event level.
Also, you need to take into consideration the era he started out in. During the late 80's and early-to-mid 90's, gimmicks were in. It was common to have an over-the-top gimmick. I don't think it's quite fair to compare Mick Foley's ability to get over, on a large scale, during two totally different era's. Fans were much different in the late 90's than they were when Mick was in WCW and ECW. The fans had also changed quite a bit between Mick's debut in 1996 and his main event success following Survivor Series 1998.
That is indeed true. Mick Foley did wrestle primarily in a time where gimmicks were alienated as I mentioned earlier. However that should only add much more to the fact that Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love were the most effective part of Mick Foley. Because they got over during a time where Vince McMahon announced that they were tired of insulting the fans intelligence - A.K.A he got over during the Attitude Era, the realistic era of wrestling if you will (Alongside with the Ruthless Aggression era that followed)
Once again, you're ignoring how fans perceived Mick Foley. Foley was the guy people were watching. Sure, it was fun watching him switch up gimmicks, but that's why it was fun. It was fun watching a man almost make fun of a prior era of wrestling. An era that was filled with gimmicks and over-the-top characters. Mick was using those characters to his advantage, but those characters were not as effective as Mick Foley was once he began using those characters as props.
Mick Foley might have been the one cheered for. Yet how did he get to the point that he got so cheered as a normal person? Because of his gimmicks.
We're discussing where and when he was most effective, not what helped him initially gain some popularity. And when you enter an arena as a character (Mankind), and the fans are chanting your real name, you know you've shed that gimmick and moved onto bigger and better things.
Yet you neglected to mention how people started cheering like maniacs when who entered? Oh yes that's right. Cactus Jack entered, not Mick Foley. Not your every day backstage Mick Foley ready for a brawl, no the "Texan" brawling son of a gun Cactus Jack.
So you're saying the Cactus Jack character was more effective, even though the crowd
didn't chant for Cactus? That makes Cactus Jack more effective and beloved than the name they chanted (Foley!)?? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.
It might not make sense to you. But in reality it makes perfect sense to why Mick Foley's gimmicks were the more effective ones. Because Mick Foley got over with them initially. Not Mick Foley. Because the gimmicks got him to the point where he was worth a damn outside of the gimmicks. The gimmicks brought him to the point where he could practically do what he wanted.
Those gimmicks helped him get there, sure. But obviously the fans thought it was time for a change, no? If that weren't the case, please explain why fans would choose to chant Mick's real name as opposed to the gimmick they were presented with? Cactus was a draw, I'll give you that. But chanting "Foley" instead of Mankind or Cactus really helps prove my point.
Yet it's the only reason. Mankind was still the more effective one because of as mentioned above - The gimmicks got him to the point where it didn't matter anymore. Mick Foley's sole popularity however did not.
Mick Foley's sole popularity didn't matter? You're saying his gimmicks got him to the point where his real personality was more effective, but "Mick Foley" didn't matter as much as the gimmicks he dumped in accordance with fans wishes? Sorry, sounds like a contradiction to me.
No problem. I'll try to elaborate. People associated the name Mick Foley more with the numerous gimmicks he carried than it ever did with the man behind the gimmicks. Better?
Not really, no. Because I totally disagree. The Youtube video that
you brought in earlier disproves this entire theory. Why not chant for Cactus? Why not chant for Mankind? Chanting for Foley is absolute proof that he was far more effective as a man than he was as a pure gimmick.
Yet the fact that they were tuning in to watch what Mick Foley would be doing with the gimmicks should be more than enough to prove the fact that the gimmicks was the importance of Mick Foley. You were practically watching what he'd do with the gimmicks, not what the guy beneath the gimmicks would do.
^^^I'll direct you to my last statement.
Not really no. Because Mick Foley wasn't truly able to become just Mick Foley. We'd still know parts of him as being Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. And before you pull the TNA card, like I mentioned earlier, it would most likely be copyright material to WWE.
I firmly believe Mick Foley could have easily been known as just Mick Foley following Survivor Series 1998. But, as I said earlier, it was more fun watching him pretend to be different people. It was a gimmick all on it's own! Those characters were beloved, I never said they weren't. But Mick Foley began using those characters as props. Why was he able to do this? Because Mick Foley, not Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love, had become the more effective character when it came to connecting with the fans. Using those other characters, post-Survivor Series 1998, were a character trait of Mick Foley, the human being.
Yet remind me again when it was that J.R and everybody started calling Mick Foley for simply Mick Foley? Didn't you say Survivor Series 98? Last time I checked King of the Ring 98 (Undertaker vs Mankind Hell in a Cell, Mick's most memorable moment) was prior to Survivor Series, prior to when J.R and people started referring to Mick as Mick. Therefore, a Mankind memory.
Who said it wasn't a memory?? I surely didn't say that, because it's really not all that relevant to when he was
most effective. That was an insane match, with an insane bump. That helped Foley become a legend, no question. But it wasn't what got him completely over the hump, and into consistent main event status, where he was most effective in helping the WWF.
I never said that it wasn't Mick Foley they wanted to see. Or that it wasn't Mick Foley who drew the Pay Per View. However, his gimmicks got him to the point where he was worthy of being considered a draw. His gimmicks gave him all the honors that made him worthy of becoming a Wrestlemania main event. Not Mick Foley.
So you're agreeing with me that Mick Foley had become a bigger, more effective draw than his previous characters, right?
Just because having a few gimmicks helped him get there, doesn't mean they kept him at main event status. Foley did that after letting the crowd see behind the kayfabe curtain.
Like I mentioned above Mick Foley was still primarily known as Mankind when he had his most memorable moment -The dive off the cell.
Who said that wasn't his most memorable moment? That's the video you see over and over again when it comes to Mick's time in the WWF. But we're not discussing his most legendary moment, are we? No, we're talking about which persona made him the most effective superstar possible. And main eventing the Royal Rumble in 2000, followed by No Way Out and then ending with Wrestlemania shows exactly who the real draw was; Mick Foley, the human being.
I just mentioned it above. Because it made no sense to why we would be featuring gimmicks that suited to being hardcore and active wrestlers, when he was indeed neither. He was an on-screen character.
Could the WWF have brought in Robert Remus instead of Sgt. Slaughter as GM? No, because his real life persona never mattered like Mick Foley. A guy like Sgt. Slaughter didn't have the opportunity to shed a gimmick. Mick Foley was given that opportunity by not only the WWF, but by the fans as well. It speaks volumes as to what fans thought of good ol' Mick Foley.
I didn't say that Cactus Jack was the only part that made Mick a legend. If you read again I said Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. All of his gimmicks got him to the legendary status he had. Not his Mick Foley character - Because let's face it, Mick Foley being featured as Mick Foley, an on-screen character wasn't anything that furthered his career or legacy in any manner.
Again, I have to bring up Wrestlemania 2000 (sorry, I know it's like beating a dead horse, but it's valid). To main event a Wrestlemania is the biggest honor a man/character can be given in the wrestling business. It's not as if gimmick wrestlers have never main evented a Wrestlemania. Look at King Kong Bundy, The Million Dollar Man, The Ultimate Warrior, Sgt. Slaughter, Diesel and The Undertaker (on three separate occasions). Those guys rode those gimmicks to a Wrestlemania main event. The Undertaker is an amazing entity in professional wrestling, but Mark Calaway doesn't mean nearly as much as The Undertaker persona does. Foley was effective enough, as himself, to shed those gimmicks and wrestle as Mick in the main event at a Wrestlemania. That alone proves he became more effective as himself than he was only playing a totally fictional, made-up, pretend character.
Yes of course it's an older video package. Yet it still proves the point that Mankind wasn't anywhere near the character that was Mick Foley. And he never were in any manner. Mankind always were and always will be a twisted persona. Not a family man as Mick Foley is.
I'm not sure I should even answer this, seeing we're in total agreement here.
I'm sure he could yeah. But that's for another story, agreed?
You honestly believe Glenn Jacobs could sell millions of books, using the name Glenn Jacobs.? I couldn't possibly disagree with you any more than I do right here. And I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way.
However, while I agree that he wouldn't have become as effective a book-seller had he not thrown off the gimmicks - It does still not make any difference to the fact that the gimmicks was the effective ones because of the way they pushed Mick Foley's popularity to the point where people would bother buying his book.
Yes, those characters "pushed his popularity." I'm not sure how many times I have to agree with you on this point. But as I have said a thousand times, none of them were more effective than Foley, during the most prolific period of his career.
Yet he remained as the gimmick that were previously known as one hell of a hardcore wrestler. The fact that people were more or less guaranteed a huge brawl and one hell of a hardcore match was more than enough to sell the match simply because of Cactus Jack being featured, not because of Mick Foley being behind the gimmicks.
Who said Cactus couldn't sell a match? He was a draw, but not in his original form. In ECW and WCW, no one cared (casual, mainstream fans I mean). It wasn't until Mick broke the wall of kayfabe, and switched up characters right before our eyes, that Cactus was used again. Cactus was able to come out without being questioned (kayfabe-wise) because no one doubted it was Mick. Mick was known for all gimmicks being at his disposal, at any time he needed any of them. People rooted for Cactus because they knew there was a damn good chance Cactus
could save Mick from a terrible beating. That proves people cared more about Mick, the person, as opposed to some gimmick.
Yet the gimmicks was the ones that gave him the very platform to be so hardcore. To tear his body to pieces each and every night. Not Mick Foley as a whole, because Mick Foley as himself wasn't the one that established him as a hardcore wrestler.
Mick Foley wasn't the one flying through tables? You're missing a huge point here. Mick was able to shed those gimmicks BECAUSE people knew who the real man was. No one cared about the "pain" Cactus Jack had to endure in WCW against Vader, because he wasn't a 'real' person. No one cared about The Undertaker beating the hell out of Mankind in a Boiler Room, because Mankind wasn't "human" enough to illicit that kind of feeling.
Yet the very fact that this debate doesn't revolve around just one of his gimmicks, but all of them, should therefore automatically signal that because he got over solid and got over as a true main event stay was due to the combination of the gimmicks. Because he remained within what had proved so popular so many times. The gimmicks, not the man.
Once again, yes, those characters
helped Mick get over. But if they were nearly as effective as Mick himself, why didn't one of them main event Wrestlemania? Why did the fans chant for FOLEY instead of Mankind or Cactus?
Yet what allowed us to gain that knowledge? The very fact that Mick had used those gimmicks so thoroughly to carry himself to the point of his career where we actually bothered about the fact that there were a guy behind them. Not because of how Mick was as a person.
Mick's displaying several gimmicks throughout the years definitely helped fans understand who he was. But you're missing the bigger picture. It wasn't until fans began cheering for Mick as opposed to his many characters that he was really able to connect with us. Connecting with fans is the most crucial thing a wrestler can do when attempting to become a solid, effective, consistent main event-level guy. And never was that more apparent than during the Attitude Era, which just so happened to be the most successful period of Mick's career. And Mick had a tremendous amount of success doing so.
