Omega Conference Semi-Final 2: Ferbian -vs- nickb03

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Oct 31, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Who was more effective: Mick Foley as Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love or as himself?

    This is a conference semi-final match in the Debater's League. Ferbian is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I would like to go first. And I will debate that Mick Foley was more effective with his gimmicks.
     
  3. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Mick Foley as a whole

    Now, Mick Foley has initially always wrestled as one of his many gimmicks. Cactus Jack has always been the one that people thoroughly identified with Mick Foley's truly hardcore side. Mankind was the one that was identified with Mick Foleys less hardcore side but still twisted as hell. And Dude Love, well I guess you could identify him as a middle-person in the whole deal.

    Mick Foley might've initially been able to get over without his many gimmicks. But let's face it, he initially got insanely over due to his many exciting gimmicks and the stories behind him. These are gimmicks that he never truly managed to step away from. He still walks around acting like Cactus Jack with the whole "Bang Bang" and he still refers to some of his older gimmicks from time to time.

    Mankind

    This is the gimmick that got him truly noticed I would say. While Cactus Jack was immensely popular with the ECW crowd and some of WCW, Mankind is what got him so damn popular where it truly mattered for his legacy - WWE. He won his world championships with the Mankind gimmick, and he had wars with The Rock and Undertaker more or less all of the years of the Attitude Era.

    Mankind is who we will always identify Mick Foley with. The crazed wrestler that we all grew to love, because deep down he was just a completely huggable little monster.

    And of course, it doesn't exactly damage the fact that he had his Mr. Socko which helped him get over even more. He managed to take what more or less screamed heel character, and made it work as a face character in a time of strange, strange happenings.

    Cactus Jack

    Now, he wasn't as featured in WWE with this character. But he did have one hell of a match with Triple H. This was more or less the guy that was pulled out of the closet when Mankind couldn't beat the living shit out of Triple H. Cactus Jack emerged, and brought the hell out of Triple H, showcasing the fact that he could make it at the top without The Rock or Austin to back himself off (Triple H that is).

    This was also the character that got him so beloved with the ECW fans. The very hardcore nature of the guy. As alluded to earlier, it is also the gimmick that Mick Foley still somewhat turns to on occasions (Bang Bang!)

    Dude Love

    Dude Love was initially a guy to become more appealing to the crowd in terms of a face gimmick. He started to play a more hippie like / ladies man if you will. The guy that everyone was more or less supposed to love, without reverting away from his hardcore nature that Mick Foley is, and always will be. Once another gimmick that managed to become a blatant success.

    All together

    He got over with all of the characters. He even managed to compete in a Royal Rumble with all of these characters. Which just shows how immensely popular he was with all of them. Sure he had his period of time where he worked so well with just being Mick Foley. Yet the popularity of Mick Foley will never be able to reach the levels of which Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love were loved by the fans.

    We respect Mick Foley now for all he has accomplished and all he has given us throughout the years. Yet all of these things are things that we got through his gimmicks. Not through his Mick Foley character. The Mick Foley character was mostly active as a non-wrestler or semi-active wrestler in TNA. Neither one of them however gave him quite the legacy that his gimmicks did.

    And all of this, is the reason why Mick Foley's real life persona couldn't lace the boots of Mankind, Dude Love or Cactus Jack.
     
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  4. Big Nick Dudley

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    Who was more effective: Mick Foley as Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love or as himself?

    Opening Statement

    I am arguing that Mick Foley was much more effective as himself, and rose to an all-time high as just plain ol' Mick Foley.

    Mick Foley has been given several gimmicks during his career. Out of those gimmicks, the most famous (besides Mick himself) would be Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. But I think when you look back at the most successful periods of Foley's career, he has gotten over as himself as opposed to just one of those characters.

    In WCW, Cactus Jack was one of the toughest guys out there. His battles with Vader were some of the most gut-wrenching matches of the early 90's. In ECW, he became "The Hardcore Legend," also under the moniker of Cactus Jack. Upon his arrival in the WWF, he was known as Mankind, a deranged nutcase who pulled out his own hair and talked to himself. Later on, almost as a joke, he became known as Dude Love. A "hipster" who was much less violent than Foley's other personas.

    But I think there is something important to remember when talking about Foley's characters; none of them were ever taken as seriously, nor achieved as much success as Mick Foley himself.

    As the WWF progressed, so did Foley. Gimmicks were almost a joke post-1997 (minus Taker and Kane). During the Attitude Era, characters were more realistic than ever before. Foley was a prime example of that. Even while his official wrestling name still read "Mankind," he was referred to as Mick Foley more and more as he grew in popularity.

    During the height of Foley's popularity (mid-1997 through Wrestlemania 2000), Mick Foley began to shuffle through his many gimmicks. Dude Love was basically a farce, a parody of guys like Shawn Michaels. Cactus Jack (of WCW/ECW fame) made sporadic appearances in the WWF, when Foley needed a more violent persona to do his dirty work. Mankind was the name used, but the character was known as Mick Foley even more so than Mankind.

    "The Three Faces of Foley" is definitive proof that Mick Foley is the character that sold. Mick Foley is the guy people were seeing. He would switch between gimmicks when one character suited his needs more than another. No matter who was wrestling, Cactus Jack, Mankind or Dude Love, you knew it was Mick Foley.

    For a man to transcend his gimmick(s), he must show people the real person inside. After Survivor Series 1998, Foley did just that. He showed people the human being who used these gimmicks. So that's what those persona's became; nothing more than gimmicks that would jokingly hide Foley's true identity. Mick Foley was the guy people came to see. Not Cactus. Not Mankind. Not Dude Love. Mick Foley.

    It's sort of like Superman. Clark Kent wasn't pretending to be Superman. Superman (Kal-El) was pretending to be Clark Kent. During the height of his popularity, Foley wasn't pretending to be Cactus, Mankind or Dude Love. Those gimmicks were hiding Foley's true identity, which the crowd (us) knew all along was actually just good ol' Mick Foley.

    The Mick Foley name has surpassed any of the gimmicks he portrayed. When it's all said and done, people will remember Foley. Will people remember Glenn Jacobs or Isaac Yankem? No, they will remember Kane. Do people remember John Tenta? No, they remember Earthquake. Do people remember Jim Helwig? No, they remember the Ultimate Warrior. Foley has transcended all of his gimmicks, and become much more than they ever were; legendary.

    Main-eventing Wrestlemania is the biggest honor a WWF/E wrestler can be trusted with. It means that person is a draw, someone who can "put butts in the seats." Did Mankind main event Wrestlemania? Did Cactus Jack main event Wrestlemania? Dude Love? No. Mick Foley main evented Wrestlemania 2000. Mick Foley was the draw, not one of the gimmicks he had used in the past.

    After Wrestlemania 2000, Mick Foley came back to the WWF/E several times. Who did he come back as? Mick Foley. Why? Because Mick Foley was far more memorable than any gimmick he had taken on before. People cared about Mick Foley, and still do. When Foley went to TNA, it wasn't as a "gimmick" wrestler. He went as himself, because that's the draw. This man makes people care about him. That was the secret all along. Once fans could empathize, and even sympathize with Foley, his career took off to a whole new level.

    Mick Foley gave plenty of time, blood and sweat to become a legend. He was effective in his gimmicks, no question. But he was never as effective in a "gimmicky" role as he was being himself. Foley was able to switch back and forth between gimmicks in a comedic way, because no one doubted it was Mick all along. The audience didn't feel as though Mick was cheating them, or taking them for granted, or insulting their intelligence. Mick Foley rose nearly to the top of the Attitude Era not as a demented mental patient, or as a sadistic mad-man, or as a "hipster" looking to be "cool." Foley did it. Those other secondary characters turned into nothing more than scenery.

    =======================================================================================
    I agree with what you have said here, in your basic descriptions of Foley's characters. But I think you're missing something. These gimmicks all ended up serving one purpose; making Mick Foley the guy people could identify with. The common, everyday kind of guy. Mick Foley, as a person, are who the people really cared about.

    Initially is the key word here. He "initially" got over with his gimmicks. But he wasn't "insanely" over until people started identifying him more as Mick Foley, as opposed to any one of his gimmicks. Even during his initial run with the WWF Championship, he was being called Mick Foley, even though his entrance name was still Mankind. People wanted to see Mick Foley. It didn't matter if it was as Cactus, Mankind or Dude Love. They just wanted Foley.

    He never got away from his gimmicks? Since Wrestlemania 2000, he has been known exclusively as Mick Foley. He has sold millions of copies of different books using his real name, not some gimmick title. He may throw a bone to the "Cactus Jack" character now and then by flashing the finger-pistols, but that's all it is; showing respect to a gimmick that helped him gain popularity. Cactus Jack will not be remembered like Mick will be. Mick Foley main evented Wrestlemania. Did Cactus Jack do that?

    Mankind was the gimmick he originally used in the WWF, I'll give you that. But by the time he won the WWF championship, he had switched gimmicks several times, at the drop of a dime. Why was he able to do that successfully? Because people knew, and cared about, Mick Foley. Listen to the announcers during his matches while holding/fighting for the WWF title. J.R. constantly called him Mick Foley. Why? Because Foley had moved past the need for a gimmick. The "Mankind" gimmick, post-Survivor Series 1998 was fun because you knew it was Mick. Mick Foley, the man, had overtaken any of his gimmicks long before he won the WWF championship, even if his "official" title wasn't Mick Foley.

    Really? Is that why, starting at Wrestlemania 2000, he was known only as Mick Foley?

    He has used Mr. Socko several times after dropping the "Mankind" moniker. He has used Mr. Socko and flashed the Cactus Jack finger-pistols in the same match, several times, because Mick Foley is the true star, not one of his secondary gimmicks.

    Cactus came around as a gimmick change for Mick, not Mankind. Mick needed to transform from Mankind into Cactus to win these types of matches, which basically shows that Mick was the main character, the effective character.


    This almost proves my point for me. Dude Love was really the WWF's decision to focus more on Mick Foley, the human being. It showed, in an almost comedic fashion, that Foley had the ability to switch it up whenever he wanted. Hell, he was able to enter all three characters into one Royal Rumble! Why? Because it was funny seeing Mick go through every stage of his career. And each step along the way, each character, helped build "Mick Foley," which was a hell of a lot more important than any gimmick he had done in the past.

    I shouldn't even type anything here; you just proved my point for me. Mick is the guy that got over on a true main event, championship level. Having all of those characters helped him get there, but once he did, it was all about Mick. That crazy, fun-loving guy who would do just about anything to please the crowd, or the wrestlers around him. He could dance around. He could pull his hair out. He could fall onto a thousand thumbtacks. Mick Foley was a jack-of-all-trades, and that's how he is remembered. The gimmicks ended up being secondary to the person you watched every Monday night, and once a month on Sundays.

    Really? Is that why Mick Foley has sold millions of books? Is that why Mick Foley headlined Wrestlemania? None of his gimmicks did anything on that level. Even as champion, he was identified more often as Mick Foley (via Jim Ross) than he was Mankind, even when it was still his official title. Mick Foley, the man, has endured. He lives on past his gimmicks, as plain ol' Mick.
     
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  5. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Yet Mick Foley's most successful period of wrestling was the very period where he relied on his gimmicks. The in-ring activity of Mick Foley looks like a dead leaf compared to the in-ring activity of Mankind and Cactus Jack primarily. During these gimmicks is where he garnered the bigger following and the majority of his championships.

    Which is exactly what we all remember him for. Let's be realistic. Who would you rather remember? 3 characters that stood out in a time period where there were certainly very interesting characters and much better wrestlers. Yet Mick Foley's Mankind and Cactus Jack characters still accomplished becoming a focal point in ECW and WWF primarily.

    You mentioned how Cactus Jack is what managed to get Mick Foley known as the hardcore legend. That is exactly one of many reasons to why Mick's gimmicks are superior to his good ol' Mick Foley no-gimmick persona.

    With all of these gimmicks, they became what we cared about Mick Foley for. Not some overweight wrestler that had a sick urge to be thrown through things and blood.

    Now that's hardly true. I'm sure quite a lot of people took Mick Foley serious as Mankind and Cactus Jack. Especially during times like this one.

    [YOUTUBE]68gwIbZ6jQ8[/YOUTUBE]

    One of Mick Foley's numerous serious promos. He wasn't just a nutjob that people couldn't take serious. No he poured his heart out numerous times. Hardly someone you just turn around, smirk and laugh at. No, it's one of many reasons to why Mick Foley got over with his gimmicks. People loved Mankind, people loved Cactus Jack and people loved Dude Love. Just listen to the crowd during this promo for example.

    Yes that is exactly why Mick Foley's many gimmicks were the superior ones for Mick Foley. Because he not only survived, but thrived among a product that practically alienated silly gimmicks. But Mick Foley got over with not just one, but three.


    The only reason Mankind was more known as Mick Foley for a period of time was due to the fact that it was so obvious that the gimmick wasn't just a specific gimmick. No it was a specific person that stood forth in numerous gimmicks. You couldn't just leave him unexplained to the crowd "Why isn't he just called Mick Foley?"

    However, that doesn't automatically make it more effective. Obviously while the name was more used, it wasn't associated with the person as much as it was associated with the gimmicks used by the person.

    Of course you knew it was Mick Foley. Yet it was the specific characters that we tuned in to watch. Because it's obvious that you wouldn't care about one specific wrestler wrestling in numerous personas if you're just gonna acknowledge that it's one specific guy. No you're gonna tune in to watch that specific character do what suits that character. Be it Cactus Jack beating the holy living shit out of you, or Mankind taking the beating of his life, or the mixture of Dude Love.

    That's hardly true. There are guys in WWE history that have surpassed the potential of their character, and managed to become "bigger than life" if you will, through their characters. Triple H, Steve Austin and The Rock are 3 great examples. And while some might argue for those being an enforcement of their real life personalities, the situation is still very much a fact.

    First of all, I applaud the comparison. Yet Mick Foley lived through his characters, and allowed for him to become more than the very very average guy he was. Because let's face it, without the gimmicks - Mick Foley would just be plain ol' Mick Foley. Like mentioned earlier - An overweight medium aged wrestler who could take the beating of a lifetime. Something that many many others have managed to accomplish as well. Ever met Terry Funk? With the gimmicks Mick Foley became special.

    Yet that's primarily because all these men weren't exposed in their careers as specifically real men. They were displaying these special characters. Mick Foley were getting exposed as simply Mick Foley, and that's why we even bother caring about him. Yet Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love is the very guy that brought us all the memories. Not Mick Foley. That is also why we remember Glenn Jacobs as Kane, and Jim Helwig as The Ultimate Warrior - Because they brought us the memories, the characters they lived in brought us the memories.

    Main eventing Wrestlemania doesn't necessarily mean one is a draw, but that's for another story. I would say that it's arguable to why exactly Mick Foley got to main event Wrestlemania, and not one of his many characters. A guess would be due to the fact that WWE wanted to feature Mick in this very special event which more or less became his "definite" (Yet only turned out to be temporary) retirement. A one last honor, to wrestle as not one of his many gimmicks. But as Mick Foley. Which wouldn't necessarily mean that it makes that very persona (Mick Foley) a more effective persona.

    Mick Foley returned as Mick Foley because he purely returned as an on-screen character. There was no sense in having Mankind, Cactus Jack or Dude Love featured as a commissioner or on-screen talent of any kind if he wasn't gonna wrestle. All of his gimmicks was for the wrestler, not the on-screen character. And we remember the wrestler, not the on-screen character more. Mick Foley's most memorable moments (Hell in a Cell for example) are Mankind accomplishments, and his memorable moments. Not Mick Foley's memorable moments. Because Mick Foley as a wrestler only had one somewhat memorable moment - Wrestlemania 2000, and he was eliminated second out of the 4 guys where as The Rock and Triple H got to battle for another 19 minutes or so one on one.

    Also, Mick Foley didn't carry the gimmicks over most likely due to copyright. Besides he still has his ever lovely bang bang taunts - A Cactus Jack feature. And Mankind doesn't need to be featured, cause they got Abyss to act like a crazed lunatic.

    The bold part is one I'd like to specifically address. Now, tell me Nick - Who was Mick Foley featured as when he became a "legend"? I'll tell you the answer - Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love.

    The reason for why Mick Foley was able to switch back and forth was more or less due to the era he wrestled in. Mick Foley was popularly exposed in WWF in an era where realistic characters made more sense. Where enforced and over the top versions of one's real life persona was very popular, or very hated (Mr. McMahon). So obviously people didn't care about Mick switching back and forth. Yet they still loved each and every one of the gimmicks.

    That's hardly true. Mick Foley's many gimmicks weren't even close to the persona that Mick Foley is realistically. A good "smark" or a knowledged guy that watched some of the wrestling DVD's of behind the scene knows that Mick Foley the person is a devote loving father and the very everyday guy that you mention. Yet Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love are all characters that were more or less completely opposite of Mick Foley.

    [YOUTUBE]QNB2CuJw6po[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]5QIGCaWPEwU[/YOUTUBE]

    That's our beloved Mankind.

    This is our beloved Mick Foley.

    [YOUTUBE]7lw-o-YRLTw[/YOUTUBE]

    That's once again arguable. Mick Foley most certainly managed to get an reaction as Mankind before we all knew that it was Mick Foley. He had great moments where we grew to love him and grew to care about him. All before we met Mick Foley the man.

    Yet Mr. Socko and the Bang Bang Taunt still came out back then, as well as every now and then now. Mr. Socko never truly disappeared. It was even present at the Hall of Fame when The Rock was inducting his family.

    And yes he sold books through his real life name. But would you be appealed to purchasing a book written by a guy named Mankind? Cactus Jack? Dude Love? It's all about appealing to the crowd and advertising properly. All of this is why Mick Foley was featured as Mick Foley when he sold those books.

    Like mentioned earlier the crowd accepted the numerous gimmick switches back and forth was due to the fact that people cared better about the realistic gimmicks than the un-realistic ones.

    All the references to the real name of Mick Foley wasn't necessarily due to the fact that Mick exceeded the needs for gimmicks. But because of the fact that while people already knew about the man Mick Foley. However his gimmicks is what got him places. Not the Mick Foley character.

    Yet tell me Nick. What do you remember Mick Foley for? His numerous Hell in a Cell matches right? His wars with The Rock and Undertaker? The feud with Triple H? Tell me again, who was it that was wrestling primarily there? Mick Foley? No, Mankind and Cactus Jack.

    Sure he did. But that is also a reason to why he never stepped away from the gimmicks completely. Because he was still relying on some of the things that initially made him popular, and kept him popular. Hardcore wrestling, Mr. Socko and that damned taunt.

    Yet did it really? Sure we've all grown to respect Mick Foley the man. Yet exactly why is that? Because of all Mick Foley's gimmicks, which is where he broke down his body each and every night he was out there performing. It wasn't the Mick Foley guy that we got to know and who became the legend. It wasn't the Mick Foley guy that eventually gave us all the respect for the Mick Foley guy. No, it was all of his gimmicks. Without his gimmicks, Mick Foley would most likely never have been anything noteworthy.

    Yet the Mankind gimmick, the Cactus Jack gimmick and the Dude Love gimmick were all gimmicks that remained around because they were the important part of Mick Foley. You couldn't possibly believe that Mick Foley would've gotten anywhere without his gimmicks do you? I feel like I'm repeating myself, and I apologize for that - But without the gimmicks, well, Mick Foley is just an average Joe. Hardly something I would really care about. Not even in the period of time where all the realistic gimmicks were popular and at the top.

    Mick Foley the man sold millions of books. Not the wrestler. Mick Foley the wrestler did indeed main event Wrestlemania, but it was due to the gimmicks that he got to the point where people cared enough for him to watch him main event Wrestlemania. Mick Foley might have been one of the primary referred names of Mick Foley, yet it still wasn't the most popular ones. Because at least one of the three other names exceeded the Mick Foley one.
     
  6. Big Nick Dudley

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    By the time Mick Foley won the WWF championship, he had already switched back and forth between Dude Love and Mankind. It's not like he took some long leave of absence, and came back as a totally different person. It wasn't like Isaac Yankem turning into Kane. It was Mick Foley. Those gimmicks helped Foley to establish himself as a good wrestler. But he wasn't thought of as a real, solid draw until he turned those characters into something the Mick Foley character used from time to time. At that point in his career (late 1998 through Wrestlemania 2000), Mick used those gimmicks as nothing more than a prop. Why was he able to do that? Because everyone and their grandmother knew the secret. Everyone knew it was Mick Foley, and that's what attracted people to him.

    So what you're telling me is that most wrestling fans remember Mick Foley more for his gimmicks than we do as just Mick Foley? Wrong. Look at the title of this thread; Who was more effective: Mick Foley as Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love or as himself? Even the title of this thread shows Mick Foley was able to shed those gimmicks, and break through as a more realistic character. I'm not saying the gimmicks weren't memorable. I'm saying Mick Foley, the human being, was far more effective once he came out from behind the curtain, basically breaking kayfabe, and revealed he was just a guy (as if we didn't already know that). Switching back and forth between characters, at that time, was breaking kayfabe. He had never been as effective, as a main event wrestler, than he was after he broke the kayfabe boundary of the gimmicks he used.


    I disagree. Cactus Jack helped Mick Foley become the Hardcore legend, no doubt. But Cactus Jack was just one of the "Three Faces of Foley." Those different faces, all being used at once, showed the power Foley, the man, had over the audience as a whole.

    What? Cactus Jack, Dude Love and Mankind were all fat. Cactus and Mankind both had a sick obsession with pain. You're losing me here. I'm not sure what you're attempting to get at.


    I believe he was taken far more seriously as Mick Foley, the guy who used all three gimmicks from time to time. People could identify with Mick Foley, because he was far more realistic. Realism is a big reason why Steve Austin got over as well. The Attitude Era was about shedding gimmicks, and letting the real person shine through. As I said earlier, Mick Foley was basically using his many gimmicks as a gimmick between late 1998 and Wrestlemania 2000.

    Oh, and take another look at your Youtube video. Who is it the fans are chanting for? It sounds like they are chanting "FOLEY!"

    I think we agree here, and you don't even know it. Mick Foley cut that promo. Mankind was a nutjob. Mankind was the guy that could bring about laughter, because Foley had turned his gimmicks into props. His ability to switch up gimmicks like that shows people no longer cared nearly as much about Mankind as they did Mick Foley. The people were there to see Foley. Listen to the crowd chant, "FOLEY, FOLEY, FOLEY!" He was there as "Mankind," yet the crowd chanted Foley. I know it wasn't your intention, but I think this video helps my case.


    Sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. Foley didn't get over with three gimmicks at one time. He was able to get over, with those three gimmicks at one time, because the curtain had been pulled back.

    Is this not what I have been saying so far? Also, that period of time just happened to be during the most successful point in his career.

    Sorry, I have no clue what you're talking about. Not trying to be a jerk, but this makes zero sense to me.

    If this were true (and I don't think it is), then why was Mick Foley the guy the crowd chanted for? They were no longer chanting for Cactus, Dude Love or Mankind, now were they? We weren't tuning in to see just one gimmick. No one separated the gimmicks anymore. People were interested in Mick Foley. Sure, people enjoyed seeing Cactus, Mankind and Dude Love. But what was most effective was Mick Foley using those three gimmicks as almost as props.


    Yes..that's what I said. Mick Foley was one of them. He surpassed those gimmicks to be known mainly as Mick Foley.

    So you're saying HHH, Austin and The Rock got over as themselves? Amped up a bit, but as themselves? Foley did the same thing! He shed gimmicks! I think you just had a disagreement with yourself.

    Did those other wrestlers have thousands of people chanting their REAL name while dressed up as a different character? No, they didn't. But Foley did.

    Foley was the guy who brought the memories! Foley wasn't a main eventer, a World's champion, until those gimmicks were shown as almost a joke.

    I would disagree that it doesn't mean Foley was, A. The man people wanted to see instead of a gimmick, and B. Foley wasn't a draw. If the WWF felt one of his gimmicks were more popular, more memorable, more effective, then it would make absolutely no sense to feature Foley as just "Mick Foley." It just wouldn't make any sense.


    Mick Foley's most memorable moments came after people realized the gimmicks were no longer serious. Mick Foley was brought in a later points because that was the most effective way of doing so.

    In TNA, you're right. But that doesn't explain why it was Foley as WWF commissioner and not Mankind/Cactus/Dude Love. Let's not bring Abyss into this, he isn't worth it.

    Wrong. He was known amongst WCW fans as Cactus Jack. Did he come to WWF as Cactus? No. If it had been such a draw, he wouldn't have become Mankind. He was a "Hardcore Legend" as Cactus in WCW and ECW, but he was nowhere near a real legend yet. That didn't come until his first title win in the WWF, where the majority of the crowd cared far more about Mick than they did any silly gimmick.

    So him wrestling in an era that didn't take to gimmicks is your excuse as to why fans cared more about Mick than any one of his gimmicks? I have to agree. But that doesn't make the fact that he got over, as himself far more than any of his other persona's, any less true.

    Nice try, but that's an older video package. That was a bit before fans identified Mick as "Mick Foley." Foley didn't act that way during his most WWF title reigns. He became much more comedic, showing more of his true personality.

    Agreed. But that doesn't mean he was nearly as effective then as he was later on as Mick Foley.

    No one could sell a book as a gimmick, I realize that. I'm simply pointing out that without shedding those gimmicks during the effective period of his career, he wouldn't have been a best-selling author. Do you think Kane can sell a book, on that level, as Glenn Jacobs? I don't.


    Actually yes, it was Mick Foley. The Hell in a Cell match with Taker is his most memorable match, and it was as Mankind. But that doesn't mean the Mankind character could have main event Wrestlemania.

    His feud with HHH in 2000, leading up to Mania 2000, is exactly what I've been talking about. He was able to go back and forth between gimmicks, and still be recognized as Mick Foley. Cactus Jack didn't come in from Africa, or some far off place. He came from within Mick Foley.


    The gimmicks brought Mick Foley respect, no question. But what he, Mick Foley, did with that respect was what made him effective enough to be known as a legend. Mick Foley broke his body every night, not Cactus, not Mankind. Mick did.

    We're both repeating ourselves, and that's because this is more about opinion than fact.

    I have said time and time again, those gimmicks did help Foley, no question. But it wasn't until he combined those gimmicks, and showed a lot of himself, that he became an effective main event wrestler.

    Cactus Jack, Mankind and Dude Love were beloved characters, I agree with that. They have done memorable, even legendary things. But not one of those gimmicks could get Mick over as a solid, effective main-eventer. He had to combine those gimmicks. And by combining those gimmicks, he basically shed the gimmicky-ness of it (I know, I just created a word. My apologies).

    When Mick Foley headlined Wrestlemania, it was almost a culmination of shedding those gimmicks. It was acknowledging something fans had known for years; Mick Foley was much more than just some simple gimmick, or several simple gimmicks.
     
  7. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Sure he didn't take leaves to change gimmicks, and sure he switched them at all kind of moments for the sake of switching them to fit a situation. Yet it didn't make Mick Foley the person more effective as much as it made the gimmicks more effective to help Mick Foley into the situation for whichever match, storyline or segment he was supposed to be in.

    Without all of these gimmicks, there wouldn't be any Mick adapting to various situations by simply changing gimmicks. We'd have one big guy who were able to do everything more or less. So the fact that Mick had gimmicks helped him in the terms that he got popular by featuring one type of wrestler for one variety of matches.

    And you mention it yourself. He used the gimmicks to get pops. Why is that? Because they were popular, and helped Mick Foley actually be worth a damn.

    Yet breaking kayfabe is something that in many occasions never does any good for a character. The only reason it did so well for Mick Foley wasn't due to the persona of Mick, yet because of the strength and popularity of the numerous gimmicks he had. He was able to move from gimmick to gimmick because people cared more or less equally for all of the gimmicks. It's an inevitable fact that Mick Foley got popular due to his gimmicks, and remained popular due to his past with the gimmicks.

    Yet it's doubtful that Mick Foley would've ever been regarded as the Hardcore Legend if it wasn't for Cactus Jack, or Mankind for that sake. Hell even Dude Love, whenever he was wrestling with all of these gimmicks, you were more or less guaranteed he'd take a hurtful bump.

    And sure he might have done the same as simply Mick Foley. Yet he would've been nowhere as exciting if he hadn't been under a gimmick.

    Of course they were all fat :lmao:

    But that's not the point. The point is that Mick Foley without the gimmicks would've been a very average Joe. With the gimmicks however he stood out among a locker room of gimmicks and wrestlers that were much more worthwhile than plain ol' Mick Foley.

    That is indeed true. Mick Foley did wrestle primarily in a time where gimmicks were alienated as I mentioned earlier. However that should only add much more to the fact that Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love were the most effective part of Mick Foley. Because they got over during a time where Vince McMahon announced that they were tired of insulting the fans intelligence - A.K.A he got over during the Attitude Era, the realistic era of wrestling if you will (Alongside with the Ruthless Aggression era that followed)

    Mick Foley might have been the one cheered for. Yet how did he get to the point that he got so cheered as a normal person? Because of his gimmicks.

    Yet you neglected to mention how people started cheering like maniacs when who entered? Oh yes that's right. Cactus Jack entered, not Mick Foley. Not your every day backstage Mick Foley ready for a brawl, no the "Texan" brawling son of a gun Cactus Jack.

    It might not make sense to you. But in reality it makes perfect sense to why Mick Foley's gimmicks were the more effective ones. Because Mick Foley got over with them initially. Not Mick Foley. Because the gimmicks got him to the point where he was worth a damn outside of the gimmicks. The gimmicks brought him to the point where he could practically do what he wanted.

    Yet it's the only reason. Mankind was still the more effective one because of as mentioned above - The gimmicks got him to the point where it didn't matter anymore. Mick Foley's sole popularity however did not.

    No problem. I'll try to elaborate. People associated the name Mick Foley more with the numerous gimmicks he carried than it ever did with the man behind the gimmicks. Better?

    Yet the fact that they were tuning in to watch what Mick Foley would be doing with the gimmicks should be more than enough to prove the fact that the gimmicks was the importance of Mick Foley. You were practically watching what he'd do with the gimmicks, not what the guy beneath the gimmicks would do.

    Not really no. Because Mick Foley wasn't truly able to become just Mick Foley. We'd still know parts of him as being Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. And before you pull the TNA card, like I mentioned earlier, it would most likely be copyright material to WWE.

    Austin, Triple H and The Rock were all just hyped up versions of themselves. Was Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love hyped up gimmicks of himself? No. So Austin, Triple H and The Rock were automatically over as themselves, where as Mick Foley needed gimmicks to get over to eventually have people care about himself.

    That's because these people wrestled under their real name in what was once again more or less themselves marketed as a gimmick.

    Yet remind me again when it was that J.R and everybody started calling Mick Foley for simply Mick Foley? Didn't you say Survivor Series 98? Last time I checked King of the Ring 98 (Undertaker vs Mankind Hell in a Cell, Mick's most memorable moment) was prior to Survivor Series, prior to when J.R and people started referring to Mick as Mick. Therefore, a Mankind memory.

    I never said that it wasn't Mick Foley they wanted to see. Or that it wasn't Mick Foley who drew the Pay Per View. However, his gimmicks got him to the point where he was worthy of being considered a draw. His gimmicks gave him all the honors that made him worthy of becoming a Wrestlemania main event. Not Mick Foley.

    Like I mentioned above Mick Foley was still primarily known as Mankind when he had his most memorable moment -The dive off the cell. Mick was hardly brought in as simply Mick due to the fact that it was the most effective one. Because it wasn't. It might as well have been due to the fact that it was the only thing left that Mick truly needed to do. Or as I referred later on to - Because he didn't truly need to wrestle anymore. His gimmicks were suited for his wrestling career - The highpoint of his career. His normal persona might as well have been featured if he wasn't wrestling.

    I just mentioned it above. Because it made no sense to why we would be featuring gimmicks that suited to being hardcore and active wrestlers, when he was indeed neither. He was an on-screen character.

    I didn't say that Cactus Jack was the only part that made Mick a legend. If you read again I said Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. All of his gimmicks got him to the legendary status he had. Not his Mick Foley character - Because let's face it, Mick Foley being featured as Mick Foley, an on-screen character wasn't anything that furthered his career or legacy in any manner.

    Yet the gimmicks still got him to the point where he was hugely over as simply Mick Foley. Because he was already established as a hugely over star. He wouldn't have been a hugely over star as just Mick Foley.

    Yes of course it's an older video package. Yet it still proves the point that Mankind wasn't anywhere near the character that was Mick Foley. And he never were in any manner. Mankind always were and always will be a twisted persona. Not a family man as Mick Foley is.

    Once again arguable. Especially considering what got him there - The gimmicks, and Mankind in particular.

    I'm sure he could yeah. But that's for another story, agreed?

    However, while I agree that he wouldn't have become as effective a book-seller had he not thrown off the gimmicks - It does still not make any difference to the fact that the gimmicks was the effective ones because of the way they pushed Mick Foley's popularity to the point where people would bother buying his book.

    Whether Mankind could've main evented Wrestlemania is highly arguable. Especially considering the fact that Mankind was still very popular indeed. And considering the fact that Mankind was able to wrestle with and thrive among stars that were certainly big enough names to wrestle last on the Wrestlemania card.

    Yet he remained as the gimmick that were previously known as one hell of a hardcore wrestler. The fact that people were more or less guaranteed a huge brawl and one hell of a hardcore match was more than enough to sell the match simply because of Cactus Jack being featured, not because of Mick Foley being behind the gimmicks.

    Yet the gimmicks was the ones that gave him the very platform to be so hardcore. To tear his body to pieces each and every night. Not Mick Foley as a whole, because Mick Foley as himself wasn't the one that established him as a hardcore wrestler.

    Yet it is arguable whether the combination of the gimmicks did that for him, or whether it was Mick Foley as himself that did it. I thoroughly believe that Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love were the ones that combined allowed Mick Foley, as a gimmick wrestler, to become a main eventer.

    Yet the very fact that this debate doesn't revolve around just one of his gimmicks, but all of them, should therefore automatically signal that because he got over solid and got over as a true main event stay was due to the combination of the gimmicks. Because he remained within what had proved so popular so many times. The gimmicks, not the man.

    Yet what allowed us to gain that knowledge? The very fact that Mick had used those gimmicks so thoroughly to carry himself to the point of his career where we actually bothered about the fact that there were a guy behind them. Not because of how Mick was as a person.
     
  8. Big Nick Dudley

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    Basically what you're saying here, whether you mean to or not, is that Foley was switching gimmicks and the fans (kayfabe wise) were completely fooled, each and every time. I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Fans in the late 90's were much, much smarter than they had been during previous era's, and the WWF knew this.

    That's why Foley could use several gimmicks at one time, and still not be "gimmicky." He was being real. I've said this time and time again, but I feel it's important to nail this point home; gimmicks were dying and/or dead in 1999-2000 (minus Taker and Kane). Realism sold, and the WWF knew it. That's why it was funny and/or exciting to the crowd for him to change up gimmicks when he felt like it. The WWF turning Mick Foley from a wrestler who was gimmick-heavy into a wrestler who used those gimmicks as nothing more than a prop was very, very effective.

    I have agreed with you on this point before. Yes, I get it. I have never said that his gimmicks were not popular. I've also said they were effective. But none of those gimmicks can match Mick Foley, the man, in terms of connecting with the crowd. Foley combined those gimmicks, and it was no secret. The curtain had been pulled up. The crowd was wise to his act, and the WWF encouraged this abandonment of kayfabe. And as he grew out of only using those gimmicks, the affection the crowd had for Mick grew as well, making him far more effective than before.

    We're not only talking about popularity. We're talking about what was most effective. When I think of what effective means in the pro wrestling business, I don't just think of popularity. I think of drawing power and character as well. I think of the ability to actually connect to the crowd, going beyond superficial pops. Mick Foley was the whole package, the sum of all parts.

    Of course Mick's gimmicks helped him get over. And yes, they helped him stay popular. But that doesn't mean that any one of those gimmicks, at any time, were as effective as the much more realistic "Mick Foley".

    Characters like Cactus and Mankind can deal with pain. People saw those characters as more of an object for entertainment purposes as opposed to an actual human being. When they began to connect with Mick on a more personal level, Foley became more than a "character." In the late 90's, as I've said before, wrestling was about realism. It was about identifying with the guys you were watching. No wrestler was more effective when it came to connecting with the audience than Mick Foley.

    Once again, I'm not downplaying those characters. I'm saying, in the mainstream wrestling world, when measuring success, they weren't as effective as Foley himself.

    This really doesn't matter, but you know this how? Sounds like a big, gaping assumption to me.


    Let's just say I agree with this assumption you are making, and I'm not saying I do. Mick Foley, from the early 90's up until King of the Ring 1998, didn't stand out more than most. He was an upper mid card guy, who was over, but not on a consistent main-event level.

    Also, you need to take into consideration the era he started out in. During the late 80's and early-to-mid 90's, gimmicks were in. It was common to have an over-the-top gimmick. I don't think it's quite fair to compare Mick Foley's ability to get over, on a large scale, during two totally different era's. Fans were much different in the late 90's than they were when Mick was in WCW and ECW. The fans had also changed quite a bit between Mick's debut in 1996 and his main event success following Survivor Series 1998.

    Once again, you're ignoring how fans perceived Mick Foley. Foley was the guy people were watching. Sure, it was fun watching him switch up gimmicks, but that's why it was fun. It was fun watching a man almost make fun of a prior era of wrestling. An era that was filled with gimmicks and over-the-top characters. Mick was using those characters to his advantage, but those characters were not as effective as Mick Foley was once he began using those characters as props.

    We're discussing where and when he was most effective, not what helped him initially gain some popularity. And when you enter an arena as a character (Mankind), and the fans are chanting your real name, you know you've shed that gimmick and moved onto bigger and better things.

    So you're saying the Cactus Jack character was more effective, even though the crowd didn't chant for Cactus? That makes Cactus Jack more effective and beloved than the name they chanted (Foley!)?? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.

    Those gimmicks helped him get there, sure. But obviously the fans thought it was time for a change, no? If that weren't the case, please explain why fans would choose to chant Mick's real name as opposed to the gimmick they were presented with? Cactus was a draw, I'll give you that. But chanting "Foley" instead of Mankind or Cactus really helps prove my point.

    Mick Foley's sole popularity didn't matter? You're saying his gimmicks got him to the point where his real personality was more effective, but "Mick Foley" didn't matter as much as the gimmicks he dumped in accordance with fans wishes? Sorry, sounds like a contradiction to me.

    Not really, no. Because I totally disagree. The Youtube video that you brought in earlier disproves this entire theory. Why not chant for Cactus? Why not chant for Mankind? Chanting for Foley is absolute proof that he was far more effective as a man than he was as a pure gimmick.

    ^^^I'll direct you to my last statement.

    I firmly believe Mick Foley could have easily been known as just Mick Foley following Survivor Series 1998. But, as I said earlier, it was more fun watching him pretend to be different people. It was a gimmick all on it's own! Those characters were beloved, I never said they weren't. But Mick Foley began using those characters as props. Why was he able to do this? Because Mick Foley, not Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love, had become the more effective character when it came to connecting with the fans. Using those other characters, post-Survivor Series 1998, were a character trait of Mick Foley, the human being.


    Who said it wasn't a memory?? I surely didn't say that, because it's really not all that relevant to when he was most effective. That was an insane match, with an insane bump. That helped Foley become a legend, no question. But it wasn't what got him completely over the hump, and into consistent main event status, where he was most effective in helping the WWF.

    So you're agreeing with me that Mick Foley had become a bigger, more effective draw than his previous characters, right?

    Just because having a few gimmicks helped him get there, doesn't mean they kept him at main event status. Foley did that after letting the crowd see behind the kayfabe curtain.

    Who said that wasn't his most memorable moment? That's the video you see over and over again when it comes to Mick's time in the WWF. But we're not discussing his most legendary moment, are we? No, we're talking about which persona made him the most effective superstar possible. And main eventing the Royal Rumble in 2000, followed by No Way Out and then ending with Wrestlemania shows exactly who the real draw was; Mick Foley, the human being.

    Could the WWF have brought in Robert Remus instead of Sgt. Slaughter as GM? No, because his real life persona never mattered like Mick Foley. A guy like Sgt. Slaughter didn't have the opportunity to shed a gimmick. Mick Foley was given that opportunity by not only the WWF, but by the fans as well. It speaks volumes as to what fans thought of good ol' Mick Foley.

    Again, I have to bring up Wrestlemania 2000 (sorry, I know it's like beating a dead horse, but it's valid). To main event a Wrestlemania is the biggest honor a man/character can be given in the wrestling business. It's not as if gimmick wrestlers have never main evented a Wrestlemania. Look at King Kong Bundy, The Million Dollar Man, The Ultimate Warrior, Sgt. Slaughter, Diesel and The Undertaker (on three separate occasions). Those guys rode those gimmicks to a Wrestlemania main event. The Undertaker is an amazing entity in professional wrestling, but Mark Calaway doesn't mean nearly as much as The Undertaker persona does. Foley was effective enough, as himself, to shed those gimmicks and wrestle as Mick in the main event at a Wrestlemania. That alone proves he became more effective as himself than he was only playing a totally fictional, made-up, pretend character.


    I'm not sure I should even answer this, seeing we're in total agreement here.


    You honestly believe Glenn Jacobs could sell millions of books, using the name Glenn Jacobs.? I couldn't possibly disagree with you any more than I do right here. And I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way.

    Yes, those characters "pushed his popularity." I'm not sure how many times I have to agree with you on this point. But as I have said a thousand times, none of them were more effective than Foley, during the most prolific period of his career.


    Who said Cactus couldn't sell a match? He was a draw, but not in his original form. In ECW and WCW, no one cared (casual, mainstream fans I mean). It wasn't until Mick broke the wall of kayfabe, and switched up characters right before our eyes, that Cactus was used again. Cactus was able to come out without being questioned (kayfabe-wise) because no one doubted it was Mick. Mick was known for all gimmicks being at his disposal, at any time he needed any of them. People rooted for Cactus because they knew there was a damn good chance Cactus could save Mick from a terrible beating. That proves people cared more about Mick, the person, as opposed to some gimmick.

    Mick Foley wasn't the one flying through tables? You're missing a huge point here. Mick was able to shed those gimmicks BECAUSE people knew who the real man was. No one cared about the "pain" Cactus Jack had to endure in WCW against Vader, because he wasn't a 'real' person. No one cared about The Undertaker beating the hell out of Mankind in a Boiler Room, because Mankind wasn't "human" enough to illicit that kind of feeling.


    Once again, yes, those characters helped Mick get over. But if they were nearly as effective as Mick himself, why didn't one of them main event Wrestlemania? Why did the fans chant for FOLEY instead of Mankind or Cactus?

    Mick's displaying several gimmicks throughout the years definitely helped fans understand who he was. But you're missing the bigger picture. It wasn't until fans began cheering for Mick as opposed to his many characters that he was really able to connect with us. Connecting with fans is the most crucial thing a wrestler can do when attempting to become a solid, effective, consistent main event-level guy. And never was that more apparent than during the Attitude Era, which just so happened to be the most successful period of Mick's career. And Mick had a tremendous amount of success doing so.
     
  9. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Of course they weren't fooled each and every time. And I never implied that. I'm simply saying that the very fact that his gimmicks allowed him to effectively live into numerous matches, storylines and segments only proves for them to be that much superior in terms of effectiveness.

    I've already noted the fact that gimmicks were being alienated back in those days as well. Yet I also noted the very fact that it is therefore the reason that Mick's gimmicks are superior to his real life self - Because he made it in the business with a very unrealistic gimmick.

    Yet it's obvious that the reason he managed to accomplish all of this was due to the gimmicks itself. Not because of anything he managed to do as himself. It's an inevitable fact that Mick got over through his gimmicks, and remained over due to his gimmicks.

    All of which is things that Mick accomplished much better through his gimmicks. The characters were greatly done, and it wasn't due to Mick Foley being effective in using them, but because of the gimmicks were just that strong.

    Which is a completely arguable statement. Especially considering the very fact that it was the gimmicks that has accomplished more for Mick Foley's career, both in terms of wrestling, popularity and overall legacy.

    Yet most of all, especially in a Vince McMahon world, wrestling is about entertainment. The gimmicks were the major part of the entertainment, not the realism. Mick Foley managed to connect and entertain with the crowds better than many wrestlers could ever wish to do with the gimmicks. Especially with the gimmicks actually (Cause I'll admit Mick was able to connect with and entertain the crowd through simply being Mick, yet not as much as Mankind, Cactus and Dude Love).

    Which is arguable. Especially considering Mick Foley accomplished much more as Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love than he ever did with Mick Foley as himself.

    When Mick was openly being Mick Foley, he was hardly ever wrestling. Which is not something that will ever further your legacy, and make you more remembered in wrestling when you are known for being a wrestler. When Mick accomplished all his WWE championships, ECW championships and his WCW championships (note, I'm not solely talking about world titles) he was wrestling under a gimmick name.

    It's a guess, assumption, whatever. Call it what you want, but there's no way that it couldn't possibly be right if the situation was actually presented like that.

    Whether he was an upper mid-carder or a main eventer is kinda arguable. Especially considering the fact that Mick Foley wrestled numerous main event feuds, held numerous world championships and was consistently found facing main event wrestlers ala The Rock, Triple H, Shawn Michaels and others.

    Of course it's fair. Especially considering the very fact that it very much indeed makes it the way that his gimmicks were more effective. The very fact that he took use of them when it was needed, yet still managed to remain incredibly over under his gimmicks when they began to fade into obscurity is more than evident to the fact that Mick's gimmicks steamrolls Mick Foley's self.

    I'm not ignoring it. Yet I'm saying that it doesn't matter how the fans perceived Mick Foley because of the very fact that his gimmicks is what got him places. Not Mick Foley as himself. And that makes them automatically more effective.

    I know what we're discussing. Yet the very fact that the gimmicks helped hi mget over initially and gain more popularity automatically ties into the very fact that they were most effective.

    It makes perfect sense. Cactus Jack's appearance is what got the reaction because had Mick Foley just stayed as Mankind and said nothing about him being the replacement in that very video, then the crowd wouldn't have popped for him walking down to the ring. They wouldn't have popped for him saying he found a replacement. Yet they were popping.. For Cactus Jack.

    It really doesn't though. Considering the very fact that sure they were chanting for Mick Foley. Yet the very gimmicks used was the ones that got him cheered. The very gimmicks that carried him through his career, and the fact that WWE decided to see through them, means that of course the fans were gonna cheer Foley, cause why cheer the gimmick they knew the real name of? They knew the real name, that's why they cheered. And trust me, if they didn't know of Mick Foley's real name I'm sure they would've been chanting Cactus or Mankind. Cause the gimmicks were just that more effective.

    Of course it mattered. But his sole popularity would be nothing without the gimmicks. He continued to use the gimmicks because while you mention they were used as props, I say they were very much used with the very fact that they knew it was effective. More effective than just constantly displaying Mick Foley being Mick Foley.

    Because as stated above - Why chant for a man who's real name you already knew? The fact that they cheered for Mick Foley as simply Mick Foley really shouldn't prove anything in terms of him being more effective either. Because the gimmicks is what brought him to the point where they bothered to start chanting for the man behind the gimmicks when it was revealed that it was just a regular guy.

    The bold part is the very deal of my whole argument. It was funnier to watch Mick Foley as all of these gimmicks. It was much more popular to watch him with all of this. Because when it all comes down to it, Mick Foley as a simple person really isn't that interesting. He became interesting due to his gimmicks.

    Mick Foley was effective at connecting with the crowd I'll give you that. But not in the same manner as he was when he used the gimmicks. The very gimmicks is the thing he needed to use in order to gain the popularity, gain the ability to connect with the crowd. Like I've pointed out before, he still needed to resort to his gimmick's catchphrases and taunts to get pops and to connect with the crowd more than he did normally. This makes for the gimmicks to be much more effective.

    I didn't say that you didn't say it was memorable. Yet the very fact that it was under the Mankind gimmick, in the very period that nobody knew of Mick Foley as a man automatically means that he had much more memorable moments under his gimmicks, not as Mick Foley the man.

    The matter of which he was more effective in helping WWF as Mick Foley simply isn't necessarily true. Because Mick as Mankind, and living under his many gimmicks were more than enough to garner viewers and to keep the crowd around. Remember the highest rated RAW segment in history? The Your Life segment with Mankind and Rock? It was delivered through the character that was Mankind. The character who was an insane type of persona who still had his moments where you felt a bit of pity and remorse for him. Not Mick Foley.

    Not necessarily. I thoroughly believe that Mick Foley under any of the gimmick names could've drawn that Wrestlemania Pay Per View and stayed on the top of the card without having to resort to simply being Mick Foley. Because the gimmicks are the ones who brought Mick to that point where he could simply do it as Mick Foley. Not Mick as himself.

    And it's arguable whether he couldn't have achieved that simply through sticking with the gimmicks. Especially considering they were more than enough over to hang with the big dogs (Rock, Trips and Austin).

    Sure we're discussing what made him more effective. But the very fact that his gimmicks gave the more legendary moments, the more memorable situations is more than enough to prove the fact that without the gimmicks we most likely wouldn't have seen many of the high spots, many of the great moments with Mick. And with all of these missing, we most likely wouldn't have remembered Mick for anything in particular either. Which therefore means the gimmicks are more effective.

    That was just as much the fact that it didn't make much sense at all to bring in Mankind, Cactus Jack or Dude Love as commissioners. Yet a Mick Foley persona was more than suitable. Yet it doesn't mean that it automatically made Mick more effective as simply Mick. The gimmicks brought Mick to the point where he could do all of this.

    First of all, by all means continue to beat the dead horse. We've done it quite a lot in this debate already. Why stop now?

    I'm sure Mark Calaway could easily main event Wrestlemania riding the wave of his Undertaker gimmick. Hell even as American Bad Ass he could most likely have main evented Wrestlemania. But that doesn't mean that the gimmick itself wasn't more effective if this was the case of what we're discussing.

    And the exact same scenario applies to Mick Foley. Except he already main evented as Mick Foley. So to switch it around, Mick Foley could easily main event Wrestlemania as Mankind, Cactus Jack or Dude Love (Okay that one might be slightly arguable though)

    Easily, considering he's known as Glenn Jacobs outside of the professional wrestling business. For being a political mind under the name of Citizen-X (But I'm sure everybody knows who it is). But once again, it's for another time.

    You've constantly agreed yes. But you're obviously not getting the point that the gimmicks pushing his popularity to the boundaries where he could live without them is more than enough to reason with the fact that the gimmicks were much more effective than the man himself.

    I think you misunderstood me. I never once stated that he couldn't sell a match. I said the exact opposite matter of a fact. I said that people were guaranteed a huge brawl with Cactus Jack, which people tuned in to. That would imply that I said he was indeed a draw.

    Yet the gimmicks still gave the very platform for him to be all hardcore and that. Would people have cared for Mick Foley being hardcore if he didn't have a hardcore gimmick to follow it? They might have. But not in the same manner of which they cared for Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. All who were circulated around being hardcore wrestlers who were crazed enough to perform all of these acts.

    Because of reasons that I already states. Or well I didn't cover Wrestlemania, which I would say was mainly due to the fact that previous years had much more appropriate main events to offer. Like I said earlier - WWE could've easily have Mankind, Cactus Jack or Dude Love become the main event at Wrestlemania, and not have lost anything from it - Why? Because they were so damn popular by themselves already.

    You're honestly saying Mick couldn't connect with the fans through Cactus Jack, Mankind and Dude Love without being acknowledged as Mick Foley himself? That's bullshit and you know it. Mick was more than able to connect with the crowd, and to do it well when he was wrestling simply as Mankind, Cactus and Dude Love.
     
  10. Big Nick Dudley

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    My apologies, but I haven't the slightest idea as to what you're getting at here. This isn't some pompous joke, seriously, I have no clue what that meant.

    Of course he made it into the business with a gimmick, I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying he got to a serious main-event level after fans began to identify more with the man behind the "mask."

    The gimmicks were a large part of getting him over initially, yes. But you have to look at how those gimmicks were being used between late-1998 all the way until his retirement at Wrestlemania 2000. Those gimmicks were used as props, and nothing more. Cactus Jack, for example, was no longer just Cactus Jack. Cactus was something Mick Foley used almost as a tool. Something he pulled out of his "bag of tricks," so to speak. We were no longer watching Mankind. We were no longer watching Cactus Jack. We were watching Mick Foley openly acknowledge the fact that he was playing a character, in turn letting us know Mick was the man we were watching.

    Who said those gimmicks weren't strong? They were strong, just not as strong as Mick Foley, the person.

    Gimmicks were more effective during the Attitude Era than realistic characters? Not true. As a fan, you didn't mind seeing Mankind thrown from the top of the Hell in A Cell structure, because he was a twisted bastard. You didn't mind watching Cactus Jack fall on a thousand thumb tacks because we knew that character could take it. Mick Foley was a human being. After all the years of watching him sacrifice his body, the crowd began to embrace Mick, on a personal level, much more so than they ever did one of his gimmicks.

    You keep saying this, yet it's just not true. By the time Mick won the WWF title, the fans were all about Foley, not so much about Mankind:

    This video is from the January 11th, 1999 episode of Raw. This was exactly one week after Mick Foley won his first WWF championship on a taped episode of Raw.

    [YOUTUBE]hcTOXrCQSvM[/YOUTUBE]

    As this clip shows, the fans weren't waiting around for the WWF to officially change Mick's name from Mankind to just plain Mick Foley (skip to the 2:00 mark for the FOLEY! chant). Look at those signs in the crowd; "FOLEY IS GOD!" Sounds to me like the fans had made up their minds. Mick Foley was the man they came to see, as opposed to just some gimmick.

    Also, look at this:
    Same night, January 11th, 1999

    [YOUTUBE]ieUcnVyx-ow[/YOUTUBE]

    While the WWF hadn't officially dumped the Mankind title, Mick Foley had emerged as being just as, or even more important than Mankind in the eyes of management. Michael Cole goes back and forth between calling him Mick Foley and Mankind. WWF management was slow to making the change official, but the fans sure weren't. This absolutely proves my point that Mick Foley had become the effective draw, the more effective character. It's called progression. Mick Foley was progressing week by week, once he connected with the crowd as Mick Foley, as opposed to just another character/gimmick.

    The official name on the banner means nothing if the fans are chanting your real name. Do fans chant Mark Calaway? Do they chant Glenn Jacobs? No, they don't. Why do they not do that? Because The Undertaker and Kane are far more effective than Mark Calaway and Glenn Jacobs are. Just because the WWF was smart enough to keep Mick's gimmicks going, almost as a gag, doesn't mean they were as effective, on a serious level, anymore. The fans had moved on from Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love as the names they had solely identified Foley with. They had clearly moved on to Mick Foley.


    Foley wasn't a featured main event guy, on a consistent basis, until post-Survivor Series in 1998. He had feuded with the WWF Champion before (vs. HBK at In Your House 10: Mind Games, on September 22nd, 1996// vs. The Undertaker at In Your House 14: Revenge Of The 'Taker, on April 20th, 1997//vs. Steve Austin at Unforgiven 1998 and Over the Edge 1998), but that's only 4 main event PPV matches, for the title, over a 2 year period of time. Foley, as Mankind, was hardly featured, in the main event, on a consistent basis prior to the fans recognizing him more as Mick Foley.


    Actually, you are. You're saying that his many gimmicks got him to the brink of becoming an effective, consistent main-eventer. And we agree on that. But, it didn't push him over the edge. Mick did that as himself, thus obviously showing himself to be the more effective superstar.


    Of course the crowd is going to initially pop for something like that. But did Cactus Jack stick around to main event Wrestlemania? No, he didn't. Just because fans pop for something like that right when it happens doesn't mean it's going to be more effective in the long term.

    So the fans found the Cactus character more effective, yet continued to chant "Foley?!" That makes no sense. If they had wanted Cactus back full-time, they would have demanded it. But seeing as though they were about as into Mick Foley as they were anyone else at that time, they weren't overly concerned with Cactus making a full-time return. Mick Foley had done something rare; shed a popular gimmick in favor of just being himself (something the fans basically called for).


    You act as though fans made some startling discovery; NEWS BREAK!-Mankind is REALLY MICK FOLEY! It was a demand for realism. Does demanding realism mean they didn't like the Cactus character? Of course not, he still got cheered like crazy. But fans wanted Foley, the man, more so than they did a silly gimmick. They loved him switching up gimmicks from time to time, no doubt. But not enough to keep one of those gimmicks around as opposed to Mick changing it up from time to time. Those characters most definitely ended up being used as props.

    But what enabled Foley to be able to switch gimmicks like that, all of the time? The fact that the man, himself, was way over with the fans. If they had loved Mankind so much, they wouldn't have chanted for "Foley."


    But was he as effective, in terms of being a major draw, when playing Cactus Jack as opposed to Mick Foley? I don't think he was. Let's not forget, after Survivor Series 1998 (and even somewhat before that PPV), the Mankind character had made a big shift. He was no longer the guy who sat on the ground and pulled his hair out. He had adapted more so to his own real-life personality. Why was he able to do this? Because fans found Mick Foley, the person, to be rather effective. You felt bad for Mick being treated the way he was by McMahon and company, not Mankind.

    Is this the segment you speak of?
    [YOUTUBE]3wWMtCQkXr0[/YOUTUBE]

    Another example of the Mankind character being forced to take a backseat to Mick Foley. Jim Ross is almost completely referring to Mick as "Mick Foley" by this point. Even if Jim Ross had only called him Mick Foley once, that's enough to show the actual gimmick had been shed. The curtain had come down. One of the most humorous parts of this entire segment had to do with Mick wearing that shirt and tie as he had been doing for quite some time. People knew it was Mick joking around.

    Then why didn't Mankind wrestle? Why not Cactus? Because Mick, the man, was the far more effective draw, that's why.


    And even with all of those memorable moments, he didn't achieve nearly as much until he began the "Mick Foley" transformation.


    Actually, as the American Bad Ass, Taker had dropped down to battling for the Tag Team titles for some time. Sure, he was able to ride the "Deadman" gimmick a little bit, even winning a WWF title. But he wasn't nearly as over once he shed the "Deadman" gimmick. Why? Because no one cared as much for Mark Calaway the way they cared about the "Deadman". Fans didn't connect with Mark, the man, nearly as much as they did with Mick, the man.

    Then why didn't he?

    Pushed him to the edge, yes. But it wasn't until he shed those gimmicks and became more human that fans identified with him on a much deeper level, which in turn made him a much more effective main-event wrestler.


    Wrong. People cared much more about the human being getting hurt than they did the "gimmicky character" getting hurt.

    Once again..why didn't they then??

    He was able to connect with fans through those gimmicks, absolutely. But not on a more personal level. Those gimmicks made him less of a human being. We don't tend to feel as sorry for, or empathize with, fictional characters. Mick was real, and the fans felt for him much more than they did any one of his characters. Mick Foley, the man, was much more effective during the Attitude Era than any fictional, more far-fetched character could have possibly been.
     
  11. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Because promos like the Mankind one with Jim Ross wouldn't have been as memorable and it would've been impossible to do them so thoroughly without the Mankind gimmick. The same can be said for many of his matches, storylines and other type of segments.

    You're misreading the context of which the quote is explained. You said "into" and I said made it in the business. Of course he made it into the business with a gimmick. But I'm saying he made it in the business with a gimmick during a time where gimmicks were slowly getting alienated to the extend of which they were completely killed off. With exception of Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love and the brothers of destruction.

    And why exactly is that? Because Mick's gimmicks were superior to himself. They kept the gimmicks around due to that.

    That might very well be true. However the sheer fact that Mick still needed to retort to the usage of the gimmicks as props shows the strength and the possibility of the gimmicks. All of it was so popular that Mick Foley couldn't possibly continue to ride a wave of popularity without going back to them in some sort, or completely relying on them all the time / every now and then.

    Which is completely untrue. The gimmicks were much superior to the Mick Foley person. Because of the way that Mick Foley's primary memories comes from moments he had with his gimmicks.

    The gimmicks in terms of Mick Foley were those that kept the entertainment superior than the realism for Mick in the Attitude Era. Without the gimmicks he wouldn't have been anywhere near as interesting. Or for that sake caught the same kind of fanfare I'm sure. Without Mick Foley's gimmicks, he wouldn't have been able to stand out in any manner.

    That's all fine and dandy. Yet how do you think Mick got to the place where people were cheering like this? Because of all his gimmicks. Mick Foley would've been more or less an average wrestler lost in obscurity if he had been sticking to his Mick Foley persona. Great guy, but without his gimmicks he would've been an incredible lackluster.

    Also, didn't WCW hype Mick Foley winning the world title by announcing the results? Yes they did.

    Yet what exactly did he use to connect with the crowd? The gimmicks, that's right. Without the gimmicks he wouldn't be able to connect with the crowd in the same manner. Because he always had to retort to popular material produced by the time spend with the gimmicks. Without this, once again, Mick Foley would've become an incredible lackluster.

    Jokes, gags, seriousness and all that is irrelevant in which terms it is used if the gimmicks themselves garnered the pops, garnered the reaction and gave us the memories. And they did just that. Which therefore makes the gimmicks more important.

    Being consistently placed in the main event at Pay Per Views isn't the only thing to make you a main eventer. If you're consistently feuding with top card wrestlers, and consistently wrestling them as well. Being featured as a definite focal point of a programming (alongside the other main eventers) that should make for more than enough of them being main eventers. Edge is a main eventer, yet he has only main evented (gone on last) twice in 2010, 3 times if you want to count 3 Wrestlemania main events.

    The same can be said for Mick Foley. Mick might not have constantly challenged, or held the championship in any manner for that period of time. Yet it doesn't automatically throw him down the card to the point where he can't be considered a main eventer during the focal point of the Mankind gimmick.

    Yet I'm not ignoring the importance or significance of Mick Foley as a simple person. He was important and significant we get that, I get that. Yet he wasn't as significant and important as Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love who were all consistently featured every time even after Mick Foley became known more thoroughly to the crowd as Mick Foley.

    Yet the initial pop just shows how people remember the Cactus Jack moments and the history of Cactus Jack. The same can be said for Mankind, who will most definitely get a huge ass pop if Mick came out dressed as Mankind on TNA taping. Because of the very fact that all of his gimmicks were just that damn popular, that damn effective.

    It might have been a rare thing. Yet it's arguable whether it was the right thing. Especially considering how popular all his gimmicks was, all his gimmicks continued to be great after Mick Foley "shed them" as you said. Mick continued to take use of them in one way or another because of the past of them being so effective. He continued to retort to material like Mr. Socko, the Bang Bang taunts etc. All of which are fully belonging to Mick Foley's gimmicks and not himself.

    But why exactly did they love him switching the gimmicks up so often? Because of the very fact that they loved all of the gimmicks, and because of the very fact that they continued to garner attention to Mick Foley. They continued to be popular in the way that people wanted to see the gimmicks being used more specifically in-between each other rather than a long period of time with just one gimmick and a brief moment of the other one. That's why Mick Foley got such an insane reaction from using the gimmicks as "props" - Because the gimmicks were the great ones, not Mick Foley.

    That's arguable. Why chant for several gimmicks when you can just chant for the primary person behind the gimmicks? I would cheer for Foley as well, because it's easier rather than switching back and forth and cheering Mankind one night, Cactus Jack the next one.

    Whether they felt bad for Mankind or Mick Foley is rather arguable. Especially considering the fact that Mick Foley still remained featured as Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love. In the end of the day they remained around because of the very fact that they were more effective in terms of playing up to the fans, as well as getting Mick Foley something to actually play off. Without all of the gimmicks, Mick Foley wouldn't have anything to play off, and he wouldn't have anything to catch the fans with in terms of catchphrases etc. - Sure he had "Have a nice day" but, seriously would you care about that as a catchphrase in any way?

    Indeed it is. Yet the very fact that the segment became the highest rated segment in a long time, as well as the very fact that it was Mankind being featured, and one of Mankind / Rock's most memorable moments means that of course Mankind was effective as hell already in terms of drawing. Sure The Rock helped draw that segment as well, but Mankind had just as big a play.

    Or because as I mentioned earlier in this debate - It was a way of paying tribute and honor to Mick Foley, the man who had given us such great memories with, you guessed it, his gimmicks.

    I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. Especially considering the numerous title reigns Mick has prior to making this so-called transformation. As well as all of the memorable matches he had that obviously put him in the list of legends of the business to be remembered, and eventually inducted into the Hall of Fame.

    Erm what? Undertaker was more than able to carry the American Bad Ass gimmick into it's own during that period of time. He managed to continue getting top feuds, as well as championship reigns in different divisions.

    Also The Undertaker certainly remained over during his American Bad Ass gimmick. Not because of riding the deadman moniker, but because of how well done that one was as well. Yet the exact opposite is to be said about Mick Foley who certainly were over during his Mick Foley period of time, yet was much more effective in more or less every way during his gimmick period of time.

    There could be many reasons to this. Better main events available, better position for him on the card, a way of paying tribute to Mick Foley above the need of which the gimmicks needed to be featured. Especially considering it could very well have been due to the fact that it was supposed to be based as a storyline where Mick Foley was to be the focal point of his part of it, rather than the gimmicks. However there's no saying the gimmicks wouldn't have been the better choice.

    All of which could've easily been accomplished through the gimmicks just as well. Mick Foley didn't need to turn into simply being Mick Foley in order to accomplish the things he did during that time, because the gimmicks were more than effective enough to carry Mick through his entire career with ease.

    And you can prove this how?

    The world practically cringed to watch Mankind get broken in half during his first Hell in a Cell match.

    I believe that have been addressed quite a lot of times. However I will say it again, hoping it will get through to you this time.

    Feeling sorry for or empathizing with a fictional character is highly arguable of whether it can be done. Especially considering the fact that it is indeed very easy to personalize and feel the pains and happiness of a fictional character if you allow yourself to. The same can be said for Mick Foley during his characters.
     
  12. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    With the agreement between Nick and I, he wants me to go first with the closing argument. I thank Nick for this wonderful back and forth debate, and I cross wish for the best in the remainder of the semi-finals, and with a bit of luck - The finals.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    His gimmicks got him further

    Mick Foley was never gonna make it in the professional wrestling business without his gimmicks. This is a fact because of Mick Foley without the gimmicks being nothing of interest. Mick Foley without the gimmicks was nothing more than an overweight stuntman that would be entering a wrestling ring and do some insane bump every now and then that had people contemplating whether he'd be attempting suicide. Ric Flair has taken note to the "Glorified stuntman" material in the past as well. However With all of his gimmicks there was an explanation behind all of his actions - Mankind being a deranged monster that liked pain. Cactus Jack being more or less the same, just much more violent. And Dude Love who was, as Nick said it so nicely - A hipster, who still had his violent ways.


    Mick might have been popular, but his gimmicks is what made him popular

    Without Mick's gimmicks like mentioned above there would be no interest in him. Mick was very interesting during his gimmicks, he got over through them all and they carried him through his career. It's a known fact that Mick on occasions has always gone back to traits used by his WWE characters. Mankinds Mr. Socko which he continued to use until he parted ways with WWE. His Cactus Jack bang bang taunts which is still in use, and has been in use for many many years.

    Mick Foley main evented Wrestlemania as my opponent has taken note to ever so many times. However it was his gimmicks who gave him the platform of which he could push to, and beyond the level of which his worth at actually main eventing Wrestlemania was any noteworthy.

    Merchandise

    We've addressed Mick Foley's ability to become a best-selling author on a few occasions throughout this debate. However there is one thing I would like to mention instead of book selling. Merchandise - Or more specifically, Action figures.

    Mick Foley has a lot of action figures. And I mean a lot, all of his various gimmicks as well as for himself. Both in WWE as well as TNA, classic figures as well as newly designed ones. There's something for everybody.

    However, the problem posed here is the very fact that; The amount of Mankind, Cactus Jack and Dude Love action figures exceeds the amount of Mick Foley figures. Therefore the production of Mick Foley figures have not been put in as big a focus because of the very fact that - You guessed it, Mick Foley wasn't as effective as his gimmicks. Mick Foley might have been a draw, but the exact same thing can be said about his gimmicks.

    Overall

    Mick Foley compared to his gimmicks just plain lose. It's an awful explanation, but it's a very imaginable fact. Mick Foley had things to offer for the business, but he only managed to take use of them properly due to his gimmicks. Mick Foley is and will always remain to be a wrestler who is superior under a gimmick than as a realistic act in a wrestling business. Mick Foley has spend the majority of his career under a gimmick, and has a lot more accomplishments under his numerous gimmicks. Because, they're just more effective.

    This is why Mick Foley was not more effective than his gimmicks.
     
    Big Nick Dudley likes this.
  13. Big Nick Dudley

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    Who was more effective: Mick Foley as Mankind/Cactus Jack/Dude Love or as himself?


    Closing Argument

    Mick Foley is most definitely not your ordinary superstar. He's not a good looking guy, he's not muscular and he isn't well groomed. But I believe that's what, in the end, made him so successful.

    Mick was the kind of guy who would do just about anything for the business (if you don't believe me, watch some of his matches with Vader, The Undertaker and HHH). For Mick, fans came first. He put in a lot of time sacrificing his body just to get over with the crowd. Cactus Jack, Mankind and Dude Love had a big part in that, but that doesn't make those characters as effective as Mick himself.

    Mick Foley, the man who main evented Wrestlemania 2000, was the sum of everything he had ever done in the wrestling business. For years, we watched Mankind and Cactus Jack go through some of the most grueling, gut-wrenching matches possible. Dude Love made us laugh, when it didn't seem possible that Foley could pull of a comedic character.

    After Survivor Series 1998, where the man Foley looked up to, Vince McMahon, screwed him out of the WWF title, something changed. It had been coming for a while by then, but fans were no longer only interested in Mankind. They were no longer only interested in Dude Love. Mick Foley, the human being, became the man everyone came to see.

    The Mankind character had gone through major changes in the months leading up to Survivor Series: Deadly Game. He was more of a comedic character by this point, blurring the line between Mankind and Dude Love a bit. This was the point in time where fans realized they weren't watching Mankind, or Dude Love. They were watching Mick Foley, a human being who felt pain and anguish just like the rest of us.

    After Vince McMahon screwed Mick Foley out of the title at Survivor Series 1998, Mick was a full-blown babyface. The Mankind character was not much more than a prop used by Mick Foley, and everyone knew it. The crowd would chant "Foley!" no matter what the official title said. Throughout 1999, you saw the complete transformation of Mick Foley. The gimmicks were completely secondary throughout that year, as people were looking at Mick as a type of hero.

    Were Mankind, Dude Love and Cactus Jack memorable characters? Absolutely, and they helped Mick get over. But with Mick having used all three of those characters so often, it helped people to see behind the curtain. Gimmicks were a thing of the past. The audience during the Attitude Era was actually quite smarky, and was sick of their intelligence being questioned. How do you solve that problem? You shed gimmicks and resort to realism. And that's exactly what happened in the case of Mick Foley.

    At the Royal Rumble in 1999, you could sense the feeling of the crowd. As The Rock bashed Foley over the head with a steel chair, time after time, you could hear the gasps of the crowd. That was sincere sympathy coming from a totally unsympathetic crowd. Why was this possible? Because fans were no longer rooting for only a gimmick, they were now cheering for a man (Mick Foley). No one had ever felt as bad for Foley as they did after he bascially shed his gimmicks. And what was most effective about Mick Foley? His ability to relate to the fans. And without those gimmicks, he did this about as well as anyone in the history of professional wrestling.

    At the next years Royal Rumble, why was "Mankind" so easily able to switch over to "Cactus Jack?" Because fans understood what Mick was doing. Mick was the guy in the ring, and to mentally cope with the brutality he had to endure in facing the much more sadistic HHH, Mick had to turn it up a notch. Normal gimmick wrestlers cannot change up characters at the drop of a hat, because they are only recognized as a certain gimmick/character. Mick had solved that problem by letting the fans know, through all of his outrageous antics, that they were no longer watching a gimmick. They were watching Mick Foley.

    While fans had recognized Mick Foley as the man behind all of the masks long before Wrestlemania 2000, the WWF knew what they were doing. Allowing Mick to change back and forth only cemented his more realistic persona. That's why, at Wrestlemania 2000, Mick Foley was the guy in the main event. Not Cactus. Not Mankind. Not Dude Love. Mick was the draw, and had been for quite some time. All of his gimmicks combined didn't accomplish close to what Mick did, whether we're talking about winning WWF championships, or main eventing Wrestlemania. Sure, when Mick won the WWF championship, his "official" moniker read "Mankind." But as I have shown you throughout this debate, who did the fans chant for? Who did the fans see with the World Wrestling Federation championship? Mick Foley.

    After Wrestlemania 2000, Mick returned periodically. Who did he come back as? Mick Foley. He had shed the need for a gimmick, and in the process, learned how to use those old characters to his advantage. Those characters were loved and cherished, but not on the level of just plain ol' Mick Foley.

    Mick Foley has written several best-selling books. I doubt Mankind, Cactus Jack or Dude Love could have done that.

    I guess what I'm really getting at is not only Mick's drawing power outside of his gimmicks, but his legacy. When you look back on The Undertaker throwing Mick from the Hell In A Cell structure twice, you sympathize with Mick Foley, not Mankind. When you think of the Hell In A Cell match with HHH, you identify with the pain Mick Foley had to endure, not Cactus Jack. Same goes for The Rock vs. Mick Foley at Royal Rumble 1999. Mick Foley was really the sum of all parts. In turn, I fully believe Mick Foley was far more effective as a human being as opposed to some gimmick.
     
  14. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Split point, understandable really as your both in the finals

    Point - Split

    Punctuality: Been corrected, point to Ferbian

    Point - Ferbian

    Informative: Not only did Nick bring the info, he used some of Ferbians against him

    Point - Nick

    Persuasion: Finally, Nick's arguments won me over here, as he finally pointed out towards the end of the argument "FOLEY IS GOD".

    Point - Nick

    My Scores;

    Ferbian - 1.5
    nickb03 - 3.5
     
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Both debaters had a good and thorough understanding of the subject.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    nick got his conclusion in late and Ferbian got his in before nick did, otherwise inseperable.

    Informative: nickb03
    Where Ferbian was first to bring in the youtube clips, nick was the one who used them effectively, he even used Ferbian's information and youtube clips against him, pointing out things like the Foley chants. Top of his game here.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    Both debaters had a top notch debate here, good back and forth banter. But as each posts came by, nick was bringing out more info and more reasons to back up his cause, whereas with Ferbian, it was a slight feel of repetitiveness with his argument. Nick was breaking away and his conclusion landed a true killer blow. Great debating by both guys but nick took it to the edge.

    Final Score
    Ferbian - 1.5
    nickb03 - 3.5
     
  16. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity: As always, Ferbian was the clearer debater.

    Punctuality: What everyone else said.

    Informative: Both did their research, so they split the point here.

    Persuasion: Phoenix already said things perfectly, so there's no need to be redundant.

    Final Score
    Ferbian - 2.5
    nickb03 - 2.5
     
  17. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Ferbian
    Ferbian had a better layout, as usual. I'm not a big fan of debates that are just squeezed together in paragraphs without separation by titles or any boldfacing/underlining.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    Already been explained.

    Informative: nickb03
    YouTube clips are one thing... but a debate without actual FACTS is a big no-no. About 75% of Ferbian's debate was opinion-based. Nick, on the other hand, really came in with facts to back up his case. All the YouTube videos in the world couldn't save Ferbian here.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    Once again, when scoring a debate and leaning towards one side, I'll go with the guy that actually proved his side. nickb03 was superior in this aspect. Ferbian's opening and closing remarks were really just a mirror of his debate which contained many opinion-based points.

    Final Score
    Ferbian - 2
    nickb03 - 3
     
  18. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    The final score for this debate has nickb03 with 12.5 points to Ferbian's 7.5.

    Congratulations to nickb03, who will be moving onto the Omega conference finals!!
     
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