Alpha Conference Semi-Final 2: Numbers -vs- Disarray

[D-Man]

Which of Chris Jericho’s WWE periods has been more effective on his career: his first run (1999-2005) or his second (2007-2010)?

This is a conference semi-final match in the Debater's League. Numbers is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[a0161613]

I think this is the toughest debate and either point could be a winner.

I'm going to go 1999-2005 was the most effective. And GD can go first.. Good luck mate.

 

[gd]

Alright, glad to see I was given the better part of the debate. I'll start us off with a short and sweet intro to get this going. A few basic reasons why 2007-2010 was the most effective part of Jericho's career.

1. Jericho/HBK was the best thing in wrestling in the past 3 years

It's a fact. Ask almost any wrestling fan, and they'll give you the same answer. There's been a lot of boring, monotonous crap in wrestling, especially the WWE, over the past few years, but that Jericho/HBK feud was magnificent. From punching his face in his face to the eye injury to winning the Scramble match to the Ladder Match, everything was great. Even the LMS match that on Raw in London that ended it wasn't that bad. The feud even made Lance Cade look decent! And I rattled all those off without looking anything up. That's how memorable it was.

At no other time period was Chris Jericho definitively involved in the greatest thing in wrestling except for during his most recent run.

2. Personal Success

Jericho has also done a lot outisde of wrestling over the past few years. He wrote his best selling autobiography in 07. He's also hosted a few TV shows, most recently Downfall, as well as appearing in other shows and movies. Prior to all this stuff, he just had his crappy band.

3. Heel Jericho

For at least a solid 2 years or so heel Jericho was just fantastic, better that Y2J or any other incarnation of Jericho. All of the talk about gelatinous tapeworms and whatnot never really got old. It got him involved in a ton of major storylines and had him appearing on Raw and SD all the time. He won 3 World Titles over this time period, the most kayfabe success he's ever had in his career.

Looking at the big picture, I just don't see how his most recent, fantastic run isn't superior to the rest of his career.

 

[a0161613]

Chris Jericho often claimed he is the best in the world. Now he is very good and deserved all his accolades. He has a rare ability to work with anyone and make them look good.

The Chris Jericho who entered the WWF was a very capable worker and immediately thrust into the midcard picture alongside a mass influx of other talent who would go on to form the backbone of the company for most of this decade.

Within a year he featured in main-event level matches with established talent like Triple H in some of the best matches of the year. He would regularly feature in IC and tag title contention, regularly stealing the show and having great matches up and down the card.

He played a crucial role in the Invasion storyline and was one of the few stars to emerge with any momentum coming out of the storyline. Within two years of joining the company, he was World Champion by having a career-making night and beating both The Rock and Steve Austin at Vengeance 2001. At WrestleMania 19, he entered another career-defining performance against HBK that compares against any of his matches in the last three years. During this time, Jericho was a top heel in the company, outliving the WCW guys who Vince chose to push over him.

Jericho would feature in the first Elimination Chamber and was credited with the creation of the Money in the Bank match. He was also given the Highlight Reel. Plenty of kayfabe success there. He had shown himself to be absolutely reliable as he barely missed a match in his first six years. He was a breath of fresh air in the main event and he always had the ability on the stick.

In the first six years of his WWE career, Jericho was a massive asset to the company. He broke new ground and managed to stay constantly over whether he was a face or heel – that was a struggle for him at the beginning and at the end of his return run.

 

[gd]

Chris Jericho often claimed he is the best in the world. Now he is very good and deserved all his accolades. He has a rare ability to work with anyone and make them look good.

Yes, he's been able to do that quite well, especially lately.

As an aside, he had arguably his best match ever with Mysterio at The Bash 2009. Another one in the 07-10 column.

The Chris Jericho who entered the WWF was a very capable worker and immediately thrust into the midcard picture alongside a mass influx of other talent who would go on to form the backbone of the company for most of this decade.

Midcard? Get that shit out of here. Sure, Jerico was still basically a midcarder, more or less, for some of his most recent run, but he spent a much higher proportion of time in the main event during his last run than he did during his first stint.

Within a year he featured in main-event level matches with established talent like Triple H in some of the best matches of the year. He would regularly feature in IC and tag title contention, regularly stealing the show and having great matches up and down the card.

Good stuff, Vaguey McVaugestein. In his most recent run, he's had some of the best matches of the year, been in IC and tag title contention, and stole the show with great matches up the card as well.

He played a crucial role in the Invasion storyline and was one of the few stars to emerge with any momentum coming out of the storyline. Within two years of joining the company, he was World Champion by having a career-making night and beating both The Rock and Steve Austin at Vengeance 2001.

The whole beating them both in one night thing is really quite overrated. It's not like they put him clean over the two biggest names in the company or anything. About 54 people interfered in the Austin match. Wouldn't exactly call that booking someone strong.

At WrestleMania 19, he entered another career-defining performance against HBK that compares against any of his matches in the last three years. During this time, Jericho was a top heel in the company, outliving the WCW guys who Vince chose to push over him.

Jericho was also the top heel in the company from about 2008 on and his feud with HBK the second time around was much better overall. Maybe you don't remember how awesome it was. Here's a video in case you forgot.

Jericho would feature in the first Elimination Chamber

Along with HHH, Booker T, Kane, HBK, and RVD. Not that special. Also, he lost that match. In fact, he didn't actually win one until 2010, which was one of the better ECs ever.

and was credited with the creation of the Money in the Bank match.

Is that really a big deal? Nope.

He was also given the Highlight Reel.

Still has had that in recent years.

Plenty of kayfabe success there.

Not really. Keep grasping though.

He had shown himself to be absolutely reliable as he barely missed a match in his first six years.

Same thing is true when it comes to his second run.

He was a breath of fresh air in the main event and he always had the ability on the stick.

Same thing is true when it comes to his second run.

In the first six years of his WWE career, Jericho was a massive asset to the company.

That's not the question, but whatever.

He broke new ground and managed to stay constantly over whether he was a face or heel – that was a struggle for him at the beginning and at the end of his return run.

How exactly was it a struggle for Jericho to stay over during his most recent run? That's just ludicrous. He can still go out there and talk about anything and have a match against virtually anyway and make the crowd white hot. His match with Bourne at Fatal 4 Way this year is a perfect example of that. When it comes to 90% of the roster, no one would care about a PPV match with Evan Bourne with little to no backstory. However, Jericho was able to turn it into one of the better PPV matches of the year and got the crowd the hottest it would be all night.

Here's the second half of it. Don't mind the Spanish.

 

[a0161613]

Yes, he's been able to do that quite well, especially lately.
As an aside, he had arguably his best match ever with Mysterio at The Bash 2009. Another one in the 07-10 column.

That’s not a point in your favour! Mysterio can have a great match with anyone. And it was hardly the first time they had faced each other. I am sure you will neglect to mention the stinker feud he had with JBL.

Midcard? Get that shit out of here. Sure, Jerico was still basically a midcarder, more or less, for some of his most recent run, but he spent a much higher proportion of time in the main event during his last run than he did during his first stint.

No chance. I think that being in an IC/European title match at WM16 qualifies him as being midcard. He had many more chances in the main event in his recent run but he jobbed or exchanged meaningless runs with them. The divisions are nowhere near as strong as they were in his first run so of course he would be thrust into the main event, because on his return the main event level talent wasn’t there.

Good stuff, Vaguey McVaugestein. In his most recent run, he's had some of the best matches of the year, been in IC and tag title contention, and stole the show with great matches up the card as well.

Name calling, nice way to avoid the topic.

Again, let’s compare the divisions. When he was in the IC division, he would be facing the likes of Benoit, RVD, Booker T, Guerrero and Angle. He even got a good match out of Chyna and Hardcore Holly at the 2000 Rumble.

The tag division still had the Hardys, E&C, the Dudleys and he won their signature match (TLC III)

And the World title picture had HHH before he got shit, the Rock and Stone Cold. He beat Hogan and got a decent match out of him. And he outlasted the entire Invasion angle by playing a huge part in it too.

The whole beating them both in one night thing is really quite overrated. It's not like they put him clean over the two biggest names in the company or anything. About 54 people interfered in the Austin match. Wouldn't exactly call that booking someone strong.

Except it’s not overrated is it? He was the guy who was chosen to do that – it is something that the Y2J character never let us forget it. It still happened and it was an incredible achievement.

Jericho was also the top heel in the company from about 2008 on and his feud with HBK the second time around was much better overall. Maybe you don't remember how awesome it was.

I heard the feud was great. You are wrong about him how long he was top heel though. I’ll give you it for most of 2008 but beyond that, it’s plain wrong.

Thanks for bringing up the 2008 feud though. That was the only time he could claim to be the top guy in the company. It was also the only time he wasn’t jobbing on a regular basis.

Along with HHH, Booker T, Kane, HBK, and RVD. Not that special. Also, he lost that match. In fact, he didn't actually win one until 2010, which was one of the better ECs ever.

Five people lost that match and if you can claim that not being in the first EC isn’t special then I can claim that his win in 2010 is far from special because of the dodgy nature of the victory. It was as far from clean as it can get.

And given the short length of the title reign that followed, it more than backs up my point that he was more often than not a high profile jobber. Although I acknowledge that he retained at Mania. Not entirely sure of the significance of it mind.

Is that really a big deal? Nope.

Course it is. Being one of the first to compete in a new match type is always a big thing.

Still has had that in recent years.

And the point was that he was given it before he left in 2005. Another moment of significance in Jericho’s career and the catalyst for his feud with HBK.

Same thing is true when it comes to his second run.

I’m of the opinion that you don’t lose ability on the mic. His stay in the main event quickly became stale. It’s why he had to be turned heel don’t ya know.

That's not the question, but whatever.

Clearly avoiding the point. The question is which period was he more effective? Surely by being effective you are being a great asset?!

How exactly was it a struggle for Jericho to stay over during his most recent run? That's just ludicrous. He can still go out there and talk about anything and have a match against virtually anyway and make the crowd white hot. His match with Bourne at Fatal 4 Way this year is a perfect example of that. When it comes to 90% of the roster, no one would care about a PPV match with Evan Bourne with little to no backstory. However, Jericho was able to turn it into one of the better PPV matches of the year and got the crowd the hottest it would be all night.

Is that because Bourne was riding a big wave of popularity at the time? You do him little to no credit.

Anyway, about him staying over. He wasn’t over as a face (so as much as you would like to forget about it, it happened in his second run). Compare it to any match he had in his first run as a face and the difference is remarkable. I just watched TLC 3 and the reactions he got there were remarkable.

Jericho’s run as a heel was wholly overrated for the most part – like I said, 2008 was the exception thanks to HBK. But even with this laudable run, he still didn’t feature in a match at Summerslam, the third biggest PPV of the year (I know why and it could have happened in Raw). He was in the tag division at its lowest ebb. And he was given placeholder runs with the IC belt, which fell in significance for the following year.

How many significant World title runs did he have? I can’t think of many because they all pale in significance to the one where he faced HBK. His longest run with the Undisputed title was in 2001-2002.

Also I’d say WWE place plenty of value on his first run, given that there are more pre-2005 matches than post-2007 on his newest DVD.

 

[gd]

That’s not a point in your favour! Mysterio can have a great match with anyone. And it was hardly the first time they had faced each other. I am sure you will neglect to mention the stinker feud he had with JBL.

If it was his greatest match ever and it happened during my time period, of course it's a point in my favor. It's not like everyone who wrestlers Mysterio autmatically has a 5 star match.

As for the JBL feud, I actually thought it was pretty decent, especially for a guy just coming back. He only improved from there. You wanna talk about stinkers? How bout his feud with Nash in 03, culminating in a truly awe inspiring Hair v. Hair match.

No chance. I think that being in an IC/European title match at WM16 qualifies him as being midcard. He had many more chances in the main event in his recent run but he jobbed or exchanged meaningless runs with them. The divisions are nowhere near as strong as they were in his first run so of course he would be thrust into the main event, because on his return the main event level talent wasn’t there.

Any way you want to put it, Jericho was world champ for 113 days during your time period (about 4.4% of the time), and he was world camp for 108 days during my time period (about 7.3% of the time). Any excuses you want to make about the time period, lack of competition, etc. really don't matter because when we're looking at what is the most effective period of his career, him being champion for a greater time during his later run is certainly a huge factor.

Name calling, nice way to avoid the topic.

Again, let’s compare the divisions. When he was in the IC division, he would be facing the likes of Benoit, RVD, Booker T, Guerrero and Angle. He even got a good match out of Chyna and Hardcore Holly at the 2000 Rumble.

The tag division still had the Hardys, E&C, the Dudleys and he won their signature match (TLC III)

And the World title picture had HHH before he got shit, the Rock and Stone Cold. He beat Hogan and got a decent match out of him. And he outlasted the entire Invasion angle by playing a huge part in it too.

I don't see how he hasn't been just as successful now. He literally resurrected the IC Title from obscurity with is feud with Rey. He's been in the World Title picture more than he ever has been, and it certainly isn't weak when it contains the likes of Cena, Orton, Undertaker, and Batista, among others. He's gotten good matches out of all of them as well, an argument that neither of us should really be using as he's been so consistent throughout his entire career.

Except it’s not overrated is it? He was the guy who was chosen to do that – it is something that the Y2J character never let us forget it. It still happened and it was an incredible achievement.

It most certainly is overrated. It's one of the first things that's always mentioned with Jericho, but in reality he only held the title for a few months and didn't win another one until 2008. He clearly wasn't able to build of the momentum from such a "great" accomplishment.

I heard the feud was great. You are wrong about him how long he was top heel though. I’ll give you it for most of 2008 but beyond that, it’s plain wrong.

So you didn't actually watch any of the feud? Good to know. Anyway, he was a better heel in 2009? CM Punk? He wished he could be Jericho. Batista? Didn't hit stride yet. Orton? Pssh. He was clearly the top guy.

Thanks for bringing up the 2008 feud though. That was the only time he could claim to be the top guy in the company. It was also the only time he wasn’t jobbing on a regular basis.

Yes, it was the only time he was ever at the top of the company, more or less. And it was in 2008. Which is between 2007 and 2010. Which is in my time period.

Five people lost that match and if you can claim that not being in the first EC isn’t special then I can claim that his win in 2010 is far from special because of the dodgy nature of the victory. It was as far from clean as it can get.

Sure, his most recent win wasn't that special, besides the fact that it lead to him winning a world title match at Wrestlemania, which he's never done before.

And given the short length of the title reign that followed, it more than backs up my point that he was more often than not a high profile jobber. Although I acknowledge that he retained at Mania. Not entirely sure of the significance of it mind.

You're acting as if he's only been a high profile jobber during his most recent one. As I've pointed out, he's actually had more kayfabe success over the past 5 years. And I'm not that sure making other guys look completely golden week in and week out is a bad thing.

Course it is. Being one of the first to compete in a new match type is always a big thing.

I'm sure you feel the same way about Al Snow and Big Bossman and Kennel from Hell matches

And the point was that he was given it before he left in 2005. Another moment of significance in Jericho’s career and the catalyst for his feud with HBK.

So you're trying to tell me something his started in 2005 that played a small role for a later, incredible feud is means more than the feud itself? You crazy, boy.

I’m of the opinion that you don’t lose ability on the mic. His stay in the main event quickly became stale. It’s why he had to be turned heel don’t ya know

So what if he was a little stale leading to a heel turn that gave us one of the best heels of the decade? Certainly isn't a negative when it comes to the later part of his career. And like you said, he hasn't lost ability on the mic.

Clearly avoiding the point. The question is which period was he more effective? Surely by being effective you are being a great asset?!

I would say "more effective" is more about personal success while a "great asset" is more about helping the company, which is why I brought up all the stuff he's done outside of wrestling. You're right, the wording thing isn't really a big deal though.

Is that because Bourne was riding a big wave of popularity at the time? You do him little to no credit.

It's one of Bourne's 2 best matches ever (up there with his one against Hardy at Cyber Sunday) Does Jericho get no credit for it?

Anyway, about him staying over. He wasn’t over as a face (so as much as you would like to forget about it, it happened in his second run). Compare it to any match he had in his first run as a face and the difference is remarkable.

He was still pretty over as a face when he returned. Listen up.

​

Gave me goosebumps. So he was still way over as a face combined with his fantastic heel run that was unmatched by the earliest part of his career. Still don't know how you can say he wasn't over.

I just watched TLC 3 and the reactions he got there were remarkable

Guessing a lot of it had to do with the match, not the wrestlers.

Jericho’s run as a heel was wholly overrated for the most part – like I said, 2008 was the exception thanks to HBK. But even with this laudable run, he still didn’t feature in a match at Summerslam, the third biggest PPV of the year (I know why and it could have happened in Raw). He was in the tag division at its lowest ebb. And he was given placeholder runs with the IC belt, which fell in significance for the following year.

You can't simply dismiss the run by saying "except the HBK thing" which was a major part of it. He's been in Summerslam matches each of the last 2 years, including the main event this year. Not sure what you're getting at there. He was helped bring both the tag division and the IC division up by holding those titles, which is certainly an accomplishment.

How many significant World title runs did he have?

More in the last 4 years than earlier in his career.

I can’t think of many because they all pale in significance to the one where he faced HBK. His longest run with the Undisputed title was in 2001-2002.

Which one are you referring to with HBK? I can only assume the one in 2008, which certainly was his most memorable. Thanks for mentioning it.

Also I’d say WWE place plenty of value on his first run, given that there are more pre-2005 matches than post-2007 on his newest DVD.

There are 7 matches from your time period on the DVD and 5 from mine. Factoring in the longer time period, the DVD actually shows a preference toward the more recent matches.

 

[a0161613]

I've just realised the deadline's passed. Damn this week has gone quick. Anyway I am sure GD will want to conclude this like I will. But I do understand that this probably wont count.

I am absolutely certain that Jericho not only showed how good he was in his first run, he showed more versatility and was given more of a chance at the head of the company. That brought him more successes.

He also had the best match of his career during this run. His first match with HBK was the culmination of a simply but perfectly done revenge based feud. These two had great chemistry (which they continued in 2008 to great effect) but this match was fantastic and a perfect example of a great WM match - no gimmicks and a great story-driven contest.

He didnt top this at any point later in his career. His second feud with HBK was driven by gimmick matches - it may have been his best feud but they were not his best matches as they didnt quite get close to the WM19 encounter. And he always played second fiddle to Orton, Cena, Batista - exactly the men GD mentioned above. He often was given placeholder reigns. As good as his Ladder match was with HBK, his runs as Champion at this time is a perfect example. He won it in a Scramble match as an un-built-up replacement for Punk, lost it to (an injured) Batista and then lost it to a returning Cena. It's the definition of a placeholder reign. I know he was trusted with that but it was a meaningless reign of which he had plenty recently. Being trusted to be the first Undisputed champ was the biggest, most kayfabe-significant reign of all

So he was having better matches, cutting better promos and winning more titles between 1999-2005. Of course this period of his career was the best.

 

[gd]

I know this is way late and may not count, but Numbers said I could post a conclusion since he posted late as well. I guess you can either count both of these or discard both of them. Anyway, here we go.

Why Jericho's 2007-2010 Run Was Superior to his 1999-2005 Run In 5 Easy Points​

1. The HBK feud. Clearly the best thing that's happened in wrestling over that time period, it's been the one highlight of an otherwise dull WWE over the past few years. Jericho was just fantastic throughout the whole thing culminating in an enjoyable, memorable feud. Numbers has done nothing to refute this being as he hasn't actually watched one second of said feud.

2. Kayfabe Success. He had more of it during his later run. Fact. More World Titles for a longer percentage of time. The argument that he was only a "placeholder" champion really is irrelevant since it's still superior to anything he did in his first run, including the overrated Rock/Austin thing that quickly fizzled out a few months later.

3. Other Success. Basically all of the out of wrestling stuff I mentioned above. For Jericho especially, his career isn't limited simply to pro wrestling. Just look at all the stuff he's done over the last 4 years as his popularity has risen. That's a big part of this that Numbers hasn't even mentioned.

4. Being a Heel is Cool. Jericho's recent heel run was perhaps the best thing in wrestling over that time period and was clearly his most successful and entetaining heel incarnation of Jericho ever. Nothing in his first run matched it.

5. He's Way Over Numbers kept insisting that Jericho was stale and not over for the majority of his most recent run, which is clearly completely false. Up till his latest departure from the company, he's been just as over as anybody getting the best reactions of the night. When you can have matches with the likes of Evan Bourne, JTG, and R-Truth that make the crowd white hot and make the inferior wrestler look like gold, you're doing something right.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: GD just about edges out Numbers here

Point - GD

Punctuality: Changed because as Pheonix pointed out, GD was late early on

Point - Numbers

Informative: Both provided bits of information, GD used more actual evidence

Point - GD

Persuasion: The all important category, there there kids your both right. Good debating

Point - Draw

My Score

GD - 3
Numbers - 2

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Draw
Both good understanding of the debate, despite different layouts, both debaters made it easier ot follow.

Punctuality: Numbers
Disarray was late to start with and his conclusion was up after deadline by a good day.

Informative: Disarray
Using the youtube videos helped him here.

Persuasion: Draw
I found myself in a situation where one debater got me but the next rebuttal swayed me back. It shows how much of a great set of debaters these two are and I can't give either a point against them for this.

Final Score
Numbers - 2.5
Disarray - 2.5

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity: Numbers was the clearer of the two.

Punctuality: Someone already checked the posts, so Numbers gets the point here.

Informative: GD's reliance on his wit and humor will get him the persuasion points, but Numbers made all he could of his research. He gets the point here as well.

Persuasion: What what I wrote above.

Numbers: 3
GD: 2

 

[D-Man]

Clarity: GD
GD's opening posts and follow-up after Numbers's posts was much cleared for me. Plus, it looks like Numbers made errors with his "quote" brackets with GD's posts on several occasions.

Punctuality: Numbers
I don't need to explain this... it's been said already.

Informative: Numbers
Numbers seemed to really use his research more effectively here. I liked his points about the MITB match and his first feud with HBK during the Y2J era. Even though GD had some great points as well, I feel that Numbers edged him out.

Persuasion: Draw
I was persuaded in a virtual tennis match here. Both men, as I said earlier, brought great information to the table and backed up their points very effectively. Like Phoenix said, for every new post, I was swayed in the other direction. I've got to keep it even here.

Final Score
Numbers - 3
Disarray - 2

 

[D-Man]

The final score for this debate has GD with 9.5 points to Numbers's 10.5.

Congratulations to Numbers, who will be moving onto the Alpha Conference finals!!