Alpha Conference Semi-Final 1: Falkon -vs- jmt225

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Oct 31, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which company was more effective for Booker T’s career: WCW or WWE?

    This is a conference semi-final match in the Debater's League. Falkon is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    I'm going to choose that WCW was more effective for Booker T's career, as well as opting to go second. I wish the best of luck to you jmt and may the best man win.
     
  3. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Listen, as a painful as it is to acknowledge this as a wrestling fan, it is a fact that today, and for many years to come, WWE IS Professional Wrestling. They are now the ones who write the history of the sport. What you do for THEM, is far more important than anything you did for another company. It will not get remembered by the masses like it would have been if you accomplished it all in WWE. And Booker T most definitely accomplished plenty while in the company. Let's take a look at some of those accomplishments....

    World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    World Tag Team Championship (3 times)
    WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
    WWE United States Championship (3 times)
    WWF Hardcore Championship (2 times)
    King of the Ring (2006)
    Sixteenth Triple Crown Champion
    Eighth Grand Slam Champion
    Co-Headlined Wrestlemania 19

    Now, in WCW.... he won the Tag Titles 10 times, the Television Title 6 times, and the US Championship once. But, nobody remembers any of those reigns, nor do they care. What everybody remembers about Booker T in WCW is that he was a 5 Time World Champion. HOWEVER, what do most fans really know about those title victories? Anything? Not really. The ONLY reason the majority of wrestling fans know Booker T was a 5 time World Champion in WCW is because WWE gave him a platform in front of the biggest wrestling audience on the planet to constantly mention that he was a 5 time World Champion. That's the only reason, bottom line; otherwise hardly anyone would realize or care that he was a 5 time World Champion in WCW.

    The fact of the matter is, everything Booker T did in WCW will be a footnote in his career. Whenever WWE makes a DVD for him, it's going to mostly contain WWE stuff, especially now with the Benoit situation (most memorable thing about Book's run in WCW was undoubtedly the best of 7 series against Benoit, which is now erased since like I said... WWE rewrites history as they please).

    Booker's career will always be remembered for the following things:

    Being a 5 Time WCW Champion (though how or why he won those titles will not be remembered, just the fact that he was champion 5 times in the company and made a cool catch phrase about it)
    Invasion
    Feud with The Rock
    Segments with Goldust
    Wrestlemania 19
    Feud with Kurt Angle
    King Gimmick

    And that's it. What else will he be remembered for at the end of the day? Harlem Heat? Again, small little footnote, no matter how many championships they won. Best of 7 Series? Not anymore. Jeff Jarrett feud? Don't think so. Calling Hogan the "N" Word? Nope. What else did he do in WCW? If I weren't a fan of pro wrestling for 20 years now, then I wouldn't even know most of what I just mentioned regarding his run in WCW. How in the World are fans of today's product and future fans going to know ANYTHING about Booker T's run in WCW? Youtube? Nobody's going to go out of their way to look at Book's WCW run, because there's just not much to look at, first of all, and secondly... by that point, people just won't give a damn about it, because as I said earlier: WWE = Professional Wrestling.

    If you don't have a history with WWE, then you're pretty much screwed in the long run. Sting may be the one and only exception (and that's a big maybe), but other than him... nobody's career outside of WWE will come anywhere near matching the importance of the career they had while in WWE. Just look at Ric Flair... it wasn't until he joined WWE when he started getting recognized at "The Greatest of All Time." You think had he not joined the company he would have ever been labeled that by anyone in WWE? Of course not. Hell, as soon as he left, it was Shawn Michaels getting that "Greatest of all time" love. For another example... look at Shane Douglas. In my book, he's one of the greatest heels of all time, but in most others? Shane Douglas is nothing but someone who couldn't make it in WWE. And he'll ALWAYS be remembered for that. Hardly anyone will know or give a fuck about who Shane Douglas is 20 years for now, and Booker T would have UNDOUBTEDLY had a similar fate if he didn't go to WWE once WCW closed, which is why his run in WWE is ultimately more effective than his run in WCW.
     
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  4. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Before we get this thing underway, let's be quite frank and honest about this. I think we can all agree that Booker T is one of the best guys to come and go through this era of professional wrestling, to the extent that uttering his name is synonymous with being a veteran of the industry... maybe someday achieving the status of a legend (maybe). Every major wrestling company that Booker has been apart of, he has accomplished feats that people will remember him for and has performed solidly on a regular basis. He was accomplished in TNA. He was accomplished in WWE. And he was accomplished in WCW... and I bet you that there is a list of things that can be named in reference to this, no matter the opinion. But what really caught Booker T into sustaining and cementing his legacy was his time during World Championship Wrestling.

    His WCW Accomplishments Were The Foundation Of His Career

    The only way to get noticed in the business is to be performing at your peak on a consistent basis and prove to everyone that you are worthy as a professional wrestler. Booker did so and signed with WCW, staying with the company until it folded. During his time in WCW, he became the most decorated champion that the company had seen (i.e. winning the most titles that belonged to the company), as well as putting on some great matches/feuds with Chris Benoit and the Steiner brothers. When the company did fold and the roster signed contracts with the WWE, he proved to management that he was a worthy asset and provided some memorable moments with the company... however, the only reason why Booker T made it big in the WWE was because he achieve so much more in WCW. Let's look at the facts:

    1) One of Booker T's main lines and ways to continuously hype himself in the WWE (as well as providing a gimmick to being himself) was that he won the World Title five times... four of which stemmed from his time in WCW. So, although he pushed the reigns in the E, it wouldn't have been possible if he didn't win them in WCW, correct? In turn, Booker T would have been less interesting to watch and being "just another African-American wrestler" (and I mean this without any reference to being racist). There aren't that many African-American wrestlers who achieved World Title success, so anyone with those accolades (especially multiple time winner) would go far if proven themselves.

    2) Booker is referred to as one of the most decorated tag team wrestlers to enter the industry, winning the championship of that same nature in mainstream wrestling 15 times... 10 of which stemmed from teaming with his brother Stevie Ray as apart of Harlem Heat. He proved that he was a person to be trusted with the titles and be in programs revolving around tag teams. Knowing this, the WWE was able to create such storylines like Goldust trying to team with Booker, the King's Court, and his numerous partners that he acquired when going for the titles. Yes, yes... the E might have done the same programs, but if you are known for being a tag team specialist, chances are that the inspiration for tag team related storylines would be heavily influenced from the person's previous history (i.e. Harlem Heat's success influenced Booker's tag team reigns in the WWE).

    3) Chris Benoit and Booker T did a best of seven series during WCW to determine who would be granted a championship shot for the company's mid-card title. These two put on a great feud and got the crowd immersed. A few years later in the WWE, they decide to re-hash the exact same thing (i.e. Benoit, Booker, mid-card title, best of seven series) for the enjoyment of the crowd. It has been proven that the WWE has rehashed matches/gimmicks/storylines and the like to further sales (recent example: Daniel Bryan vs. Dolph Ziggler from Bragging Rights)... and with the concept doing quite well in WCW, the E gave it a run. If it wasn't for the performances that Booker put on in WCW... would such storylines like this ever occur to the E? No chance in hell, considering that most feud lasts for is about three months.​


    Whilst most of what I'm saying goes to the idea that his work in WCW was a stepping stone to performing in WWE, the principle still retains: if it weren't for his previous accomplishments and the amount of time/effort he exerted in WCW, the name of Booker T would not be appreciated as well as it is today. Knowing what happened to the rest of Booker's colleagues who signed contracts with the E, Booker would have remained in the mid-card or lower... instead of receiving the push to the main event (through a nice, slow push of the midcard/tag team area).


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    Since most of my opening statement mirror's what my opponent has introduced into the debate, I will be responding to only certain area's of my opponent's opening statement to avoid repetition.

    I'll do the best of my short-term wrestling memory to see what I can remember.

    I remember that he won them, but not how he won them... sure, I'll give you that... but does anyone remember that he won the fifth World Title (in that catch-phrase) in the WWE? No... they remember him winning the title under WCW. To the average fan, we are going to associate that Booker had a more effective and better run during WCW than WWE by a long shot... considering that he won five titles for WCW compared to won in the WWE (that's if people remember that reign, but I will get to that in a minute).

    Yes, and all of it was, again, a reference as to how good he was in WCW, thus showing how his time there was effective for his career and setting him up for a good WWE run.

    I also remember Harlem Heat, feud with Scott Steiner and his matches with Chris Benoit... funny that, huh? Also funny how the Benoit feud was re-ignited the same way in WWE to attract audiences.

    How about WarGames at Fall Brawl?

    Gimmicks, aye? Well... there was one where Booker became a member of a stable of M.I.A. and completely revamped his look due to a storyline. Although it wasn't the best of groups, it proved that Booker was capable of dropping his old schtick of being himself (yeah, that gets old apparently) and becoming something completely different... kind of reminiscent of that King gimmick.

    But without the success that he achieved in WCW, nothing would have culminated for Booker in the E at all. Do you think the WWE had the brain-power to establish seven matches between Booker T and Chris Benoit for the mid-card title? They wouldn't invest that much time in the mid-card area as the money-making is at the top. Thanks to WCW and the effectiveness that was pulled off during Booker's time there, he was able to replicate the results with Benoit. So, essentially, how Booker went in WCW = how he went in WWE... which leads to the fact that the effect of his WCW's career decided how the effect of his WWE career went. If he had less success in WCW, he would have failed much worse in WWE... leading to the fact that WCW would have still been more effective for his career.

    Ric Flair achieved most of his 16 World Championships outside of the WWE. People don't remember where or how, but people knew that it wasn't with the company and that he is considered a legend for winning the unprecedented amount. If he didn't have that on his resume, do you think the run(s) that Flair had with the company would have been as successful as it was? No... they wouldn't have employed someone of his age if he didn't prove how effective he was during his heyday... if anything, he would have been relegated to the curtain jerking areas. Ric Flair didn't need the WWE to make Ric Flair remembered... he proved how effective he was outside of the company... so did Shane Douglas and Sting... they didn't need the machine to become effective during their runs. On the same subject, you don't need the WWE to become a star and show how effective your career can be if you were employed.

    Booker T is like Flair... didn't need the WWE to prove his worth to professional wrestling as the amount that he achieved in non-WWE companies already was effective enough to consider him an excellent wrestler.
     
  5. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Every career must start somewhere; however, just because you began your career in a company, do well there, and then move on to do better things with the company you work for after that does not mean the start of your career was better than the end of it.

    To compare it to sports, look at Steve Young. He started his career in Tampa Bay, and did alright considering the circumstances. However, when someone sees Steve Young's highlight reel, they'll mostly see his work in San Fransisco. Why? Because he did more with that team than he did with Tampa Bay, even if his play in Tampa Bay was the reason why he got the job with San Fransisco in the first place.

    The same goes for Booker T. Years from now when you see highlights from this man's career, you're going to mostly see Booker with dreadlocks, not the flat-top version.

    Would those reigns have mattered though if he hadn't constantly put over the fact that he was World Champion five times in WCW while in WWE? Who would really care or remember that fact if it weren't for the platform WWE gave him to constantly mention that accomplishment? Hardly anybody.

    Also, don't get it twisted, "Being a 5-Time World Champion" is NOT what got Booker T over. He got over with the help of The Rock, ability on the mic, the capability to have good matches, and of course the Spin-a-Roonie. Those more than anything else are why he was so successful in WWE. Saying he was a 5 time World Champion was simply a catch phrase.

    But how often do you hear about Harlem Heat being thrown around as one of the greatest tag teams of all time? Hardly ever. I guarantee we would could at every thread here at WZ that asked the question, "Who are the greatest Tag Teams of all time?" and I GUARANTEE Harlem Heat would hardly get any mentions. Why? Simple, they were a one man tag team (Stevie Ray sucked), and because they don't have any true classic matches under their belt. Seriously, out of all the championship reigns Harlem Heat had, do they have one classic match? Please name it if you can. I would love to hear this.

    The bottom line is that Booker's talent is why he got all those opportunities in WWE, not because of what he did in WCW. Sure, being apart of WCW helped him get a contract, but it had absolutely no barring on the success he ended up having in the company.

    As I mentioned in my original post, this may as well be erased from history at this point. Booker T and Chris Benoit did have an incredible series, but how many fans will know about it 10 years from now?

    But what exactly came out of Booker participating in those "Best of 5/7" series in WWE? Nothing. He lost to Cena, and he was losing to Benoit before getting injured. So, WWE bringing that concept did not exactly help Booker's career, since A) he lost and B) hardly any of the matches stand out.

    So, if Booker weren't much younger, and actually came up through WWE's developmental system early in the millennium than he wouldn't have had the same success he has had? Seriously, if Booker made his debut as some no name and then go on to feud with The Rock and have the EXACT same career, he wouldn't be as widely known and respected as he currently is? Dude, of course he would have, because the majority of his best work was in WWE, bottom line. There's simply not much you can bring up from his work in WCW that stands out over everything he did in WWE. Promos, matches, feuds, etc... all of them were far more memorable in WWE than they were in WCW.

    .... yet, I'm sure way more people remember Booker T's King of the Ring victory and then going on to have a long run as World Champion as King Booker (which, yes, I do remember how he won the World Title as King Booker, it was against Rey Mysterio at The Great American Bash) more than ANY of Booker's WCW World Title reigns.

    I don't buy that for a second since the average fan won't have any idea about Booker's run in WCW other than he was a 5 time World Champion. To the average fan of WWE, WCW will be considered the minor leagues of professional wrestling, ESPECIALLY during its dying days where Booker had all those championship reigns.

    Another thing that tears this argument down.. The Big Show won the WCW World Title twice during his run in WCW, and twice during his run in WWE. Does that mean people will look at the Big Show's run in WWE as equal to his run in WCW? Of course not, because it doesn't measure up, just as it doesn't measure up for Booker T.

    Lol... please name one good match Booker T had against Scott Steiner?

    Uhh... Booker T was never in WarGames at Fall Brawl, man. He had a shitty steel cage match with Kevin Nash in 2000 at Fall Brawl, but it wasn't WarGames, and nothing about that match is memorable.

    How so? Dude, those two gimmicks have NOTHING in common. You seriously think WWE looked at that M.I.A. crap and then came to the conclusion that Booker T would make a good King in WWE? Of course not, man. Hardly anybody remembers that M.I.A. garbage and the only people who do only remember how shitty it was.

    Dude, the same goes for ANYONE who worked in WCW before going to WWE. Is Chris Jericho's career in WCW more effective than his career in WWE just because he worked in WCW first? What about Eddie Guerrero? Rey Mysterio? Hell, even the fucking Undertaker got his first big break in WCW... does WCW deserve credit for 'Taker's success? Of course not, man.

    You say this like the Best of series in WWE was this great success. Booker T got injured during it, man, and it was Randy Orton who ultimately got put over by being Book's replacement.

    So, just because WWE copied one thing Booker had partaken in WCW means that everything else he did in WWE was a carbon copy of everything he did in WCW? No man, that's not how professional wrestling works.

    That's a baseless assumption. Booker could have been a zero time World Champion by the time he reached WWE and would have been the same success story, because the guy is and always has been an incredible talent. His past accomplishments had nothing to do with what he did in WWE. It was nothing but talent why he got over, and why he stayed over for as long as he did, because the fact of the matter is, after a while, that WCW novelty wore off and he simply became Booker T/King Booker. As a heel fans hated him, and as a face fans loved him. That was all because of talent, not past accomplishments.

    I'm not saying Ric Flair needed WWE to make him remembered; I'm saying it's because of his run in WWE that his career ended up being as lauded as it is. Hardly anybody was throwing that "Greatest of all time" shit around before he went to WWE. However, when guys like HHH and HBK started saying it under the WWE banner, on national television, that's when people started believing it, and that's when the Flair book, DVDs, etc. all came out.

    My point is to show what someone can accomplish under the WWE marketing scheme. WWE does an absolutely tremendous job putting their stars over, and they did/do so more than WCW ever could have. However, WWE is arrogant about it... they want their product to be the most heavily regarded out of it all, which is why Booker T's run in WWE will triumph his run in WCW at the end of the day, since WWE and WWE fans will undoubtedly focus more on his WWE run than his WCW run, as they should since his WWE run was more memorable anyway.

    I never said Booker T needed WWE to prove his worth, but it is a fact that his run in WWE made his "worth" that much more effective than his run in WCW ever could have.

    WWE makes and breaks people. Look at Diamond Dallas Page. His run in WCW was MUCH more accomplished than Booker's run, however he was trashed in WWE and because of that his legacy got severely damaged. But it's just the opposite for Booker T, isn't it? Why is that? Because once WWE bought WCW and became THE wrestling company, they decide what's what when it comes to the business. It's sad, but it's true.
     
  6. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Many things have come up and I have hardly any time to dedicate to the debater's league. I know, I know... I gave my go ahead to do this... and I know we've been through a shit-load with this... and I wanted to do this... but I can't with what's come up (pretty bad ankle injury and the rehab to come with, as well as family problems). I sincerely apologise about this, but I have to forfeit.

    Cheers for hopefully understanding.
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Despite a great effort by both guys, Falkon had to forfeit for understandable reasons which is a shame but I can't fault him for that.

    I give 5 default points to jmt225 but also thank Falkon for being a superb debater and that I'm sorry to see that things forced you to back out but thank you for making the time to be with this right up to the very near end.
     
  8. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    It's very unfortunate, but since Falkon had to drop out, all points go to jmt225. Still a great debate by both participants.
     
  9. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    jmt225 - 5
    Falkon - 0
     
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Unfortunately, due to Falkon having to back out, all judges' points are awarded to jmt225.

    Therefore, the final score for this debate has jmt225 with 20 points to Falkon's 0.

    Congratulations to jmt225, who will be moving onto the Alpha conference finals!!
     
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