No it wasnt OVERDONE in every match, but more often than not, there was something hardcore in the match. A chair, a table, something other than pure wrestling.
The name on the bill was "extreme." They still had many different working styles functioning on a given card at one time, but with the word "extreme" in the namesake, what'd you expect? Singlets and head gear?
It's called the "superman comeback" done by MANY wrestlers before him. He gets his ass beat all match. Then when its the peak and the crowd is all over him to get up he starts to sell a little less, a little less and then he just feels no pain. Cheif Jay Strongbow and the King Jerry Lawler did the same thing.
And the fact that it's STILL done on WWE programming on a regular basis shows you how far they've come with regards to advancing the product.
Just laying there isnt selling. Shaking like Hogan did, showing extreme facial expressions like Lawler did, and screaming out in pain like Flair did (and still does BTW) is selling. Laying there like a piece of shit on a log isnt selling. Slightly stumbling and then just all of a sudden not feeling it isnt selling. HAVING KURT ANGLES ANKEL LOCK ON YOU FOR ALMOST TWO FULL FUCKING MINUTES AND THEN MAGICALLY BEING ABLE TO JUMP TO THE TOP ROPE LIKE IT WASNT EVEN APPLIED IS NOT SELLING.
And what would you expect someone to do when being hit by a chair. Scream out in pain? Yeah, that shows realism. I know every time I've been clocked over the head with a blunt object, my first instinct (even when my bell is rung) is to start screaming because boy, that's realism! Selling also incorporates how well you accept the move from another wreslter. There is a difference between realistic sells and oversells. Sandman wasn't a member of the other. When he got hit most times, it was worth the lack of selling because ECW wasn't frequented by nine year olds that loved watching shit like Hogan having a mock seizure in the ring.
No thats the very point. As I said, tell me one ECW PPV Main Event that didnt have a table, a chair, or some weapon used.....you cant, because they dont exist.
You know they don't exist, and the fact that you're asking is pretty lame to begin with. What I've been trying to get across to you is that chair shots and tables weren't the complete focal point of the company like you'd like everyone uninformed to believe. The workrate there was still topnotch in numerous encounters, before or even if weapons were used.
Smark, I was being glib. I know they were 4 years apart, but the point I make is still valid. The cruiserweights never main evented in ECW, it was always shit like Rhyno, Sandman, Sabu, and the like.
Mark, I was being sarcastic. Cruiserweights never main-evented? Justin Credible and Jerry Lynn ring a bell? No. I'm not surprised.
Giving them interviews isnt pushing them, its giving them interview time. So what, it hadne been done before, and aside from the fuckers who could really talk, it hasnt been done since. Ever wonder why Paul London doesnt get to talk much? Its because he sounds like a 12 year old GIRL when he does. Its laughable to hear him try and act tough.
And what is the purpose of interview time? To get them over and give them a rub, maybe? Or maybe it's just because character development was actually used for their CW's, unlike other companies.
Mikey was given a sympahy push, and to give the feeling of "anything could happen." It would have been validated had he had a good title match, but it was shitty beyond description. A perfect example of ECWs hardcore BULLSHIT. And all the small guys in ECW got a push at the end when everyone else who was worth anything had left for greener pastures and giving it to the Sandman for the 500th time was just redundant, though he got it again anyway.
You didn't like the match, and that's gravy. It served it's purpose and in the record books, Mikey is still a champion. Regardless of how much I hate Batista and Cena, as well as their obvious lack of wrestling ability it doesn't negate the fact that they got belts, does it?
Maybe the small guys like Lynn, RVD, and Credible got the push because they had actually out-worked the larger guys when they were still around? Living Dangerously 1999 was a fine example. RVD and Lynn stole the show and they weren't big men by any stretch, except for Van Dam who weighed around 240. The working style was light years ahead of the standard heavyweight outings, and it drew the crowd in. The main event featuring Douglas and Dreamer barely even got the crowd to wake up, even though they're two of ECW's original franchise players.
Good reaction...from the ECW crowd. As I said before, ANYONE CAN GET A REACTION FROM THE ECW CROWD. I could walk into the bingo hall in Philly and get that crowd to either hate me or love me within a matter of 1 minute. Do you think Cyrus had some great intangible? No he just told the crowd he represented authority and they automatically hated him. Its not hard to do.
Actually, Cyrus did a pretty good job scooping heat in the WWF during his tenure with the freaks, but that's another story altogether. And anyone can get a reaction from the standard WWE crowd. If they don't appreciate what you're doing, they'll just chant "boring." Even if the wrestling is executed well. Actually, Cyrus told them he respresented the "network" which at the time was f**king over ECW in a major way money-wise, and content-wise, so as far as intangibles go, he was right on the button when he started pushing theirs.
Actually, there is something realistic about a man putting his hands on someone elses real life wife. She could have been a plant, but she wasnt, and thats the point.
Yes, because airbrushed spandex with a picture of Cheryl doesn't reek of kayfabe.
Who cares? Why does that make it more realistic? They could just as easily "say" they fired someone when they didnt. ECW was a small time promotion so when someone left, more often than not, they had to make an angle out of it so as to make themselves look better instead of saying "Hey I fucked up and didnt pay this guy" or "Hey I fucked up and I couldnt get Benoit his passport". Coming out and saying "So and so is gone" or "So and so is in contract negotiations" doesnt add realism to anything because its irrelevant. It's interesting, but it's irrelevant.
Apparently ECW's fanbase cared? I'm just guessing, though. More realistic? How about them being the first company to actually present the product with a shoot atmosphere and actually letting its fans know what is indeed going on behind the scenes. You had to be fairly internet-savvy to get all of what went on during the telecasts. It wasn't mark friendly. And I could argue that Jake's wife getting felt up by Rude was irrelevant, too.
Anyone who thought wrestling was real was dumber than dogshit. But in reality real and fake dont apply to wrestling. As a great man once said those words are irrelevant. Wrestling isnt a competition, its an exhibition. So they didnt pull back the curtain and reveal the old man like Dorthy in Oz. You did NOT see people after Vince started the change in the WWE in 1997 towards the attitude era start going "ZOMG I DIDNT KNOW WRESTLING WAS FAKE!!!! I THOUGHT THE UNDERTAKER REALLY WAS DEAD!! I THOUGHT RICKY REALLY WAS A DRAGON!! I THOUGHT RAVEN REALLY WAS A BIRD!!!!" It didnt happen.
Actually, the elements of kayfabe are alive and well in the company, and there are a lot of children who watch the WWE (and have for years) that must be dumber than dogshit by your reckoning. Did you see something as phony as the Undertaker's gimmick in ECW? No. It was geared along the lines of not being marketed towards children and not insulting the intelligence of the average fan.
Youre not presenting any FACTS, youre presenting OPINION. Thats why I hate smarks, they think their OPINION is FACT. You said it was a different era then and therefore I cant compare the two. That is an OPINION not a fact. It is a FACT that the only way wrestling was different back in that day was it was more shoot than it is now. That the ONLY reason. Almost always, the bigger motherfuckers got the attention. Killer Kawalski, Hackenschdmit, and all those guys, they were MONSTERS. But the GOOD smaller guys also got the attetion, and its the same today. Not because of ECW, but because they are GOOD.
No, I'm not presenting facts you want to hear. The only difference is the amount of shoot? Are you for real saying this? Try theatricality, presentation, working abilties, working styles, physiques, ring gear, entrance setup, writing, content standards, promo styles...shall I continue? Talking about the majority of the workers of today who aren't big, but still get pushes? Misterio, Benoit, and Guererro would NEVER have held the WWE title if not for the exposure that they got in Philly. Deny that all you please, but they were not on the radar of Vince or Eric or anyone else involved in major American wrestling at the time. And trust me, if wrestling was no different or evolved from what it was like in yeteryear, then Vince could just air reruns of Prime Time Wrestling with a new graphics package and it'd still work.
General consensus from a bunch of smarks who think the same way doesnt prove anything. Go round up 10 wrestling fans on the street and see what they say.
Yes, because the uninformed opinion is always the most bankable. There are plenty of smarks AND marks around these parts if you'd bother to read more.
Not reinventing the boundaries in America. How may feuds did Tigermask and Dynamite have stateside? Pillman feuded with one of the top heavys of his day and showed him up IMO.
I'm not debating whether Pillman had a successful feud with a top heavyweight. I know he can wrestle. I'm talking about juniors actually getting a push for a major angle and getting access to a title. Pillman held the World Title in WCW on zero occasions, if I recall. Not saying I don't think he deserved it, because Flyin' Brian and Z-man were quite possibly my favorite tag team as a kid, but the truth is that he wasn't given half the leeway in terms of a push as Heyman's offspring, is all. In the end-all, be-all it's a fair shake that Sayama and Billington will have the lasting impression as they influenced two of the top lightweights to get large pushes in the U.S. in Rey and Benoit.
They didnt expose shit. At ECW's PEAK they could barely sell out a 3000 seat arena, and reached almost NO ONE with their local market TV deal. Maybe they exposed it to 200 people a night, but that aint shit compared to the exposure they got in WCW.
Definitely not to the general populace because ECW was scarcely available in those times, but it sure made an impression on the big two, and that's the influence that mattered. I mean, all of a sudden WCW grabs the luchadors and goes on a hunt for all the juniors they can get access to...they even go one better and make a belt for a fresh division. WWF is next to follow suit when they directly import Taka and Sasuke to kickstart their own lightweight division only a few months after they make an appearance at Barely Legal. I just love all these little coincidences, don't you?
When comparing 2 similar but not alike things, you go based on fundamentals. And almost all of the top ECW guys had NONE. They knew how to fundamentally no sell a chair shot and take pain. Big whoop. No fundamentals of wrestling or crowd psychology outside of Raven and Taz.
You of all marks should damn well know there have been a ton of capable wrestlers (with or without weapons included) that have been through those ranks before that can get over without a weapon. You just bring up the opportune few and ignore the vast majority of the rest who were there.
Looking to see where you were gonna fall doenst take anything but common sense, and thats part of the appeal of ECW. Much like Punk Rock, people think "man that could be me" because its so easy to do. And much like most of Punk Rock, most of ECW sucked ass.
See, this is where your slantest butt-rock loving views come into play and I am just tickled pink reading this shit. Doing crazy stunts like that requires a lot of balls and a boatload of trust with the other guys. It's easy to say you can do that when you're watching on TV, but getting out there and jumping off of scaffolding or a balcony or letting Bam Bam throw your ass into the audience is a whole other ball of wax. Most of punk rock also helped to pave the way for other stuff you might fancy like Metallica.
Can you tell me one ECW main event involving anyo of those guys that had NO HARDCORE ELEMENTS or HIGH SPOTS at all? Can you find me one that was on par with Savage/Flair or Angle/Benoit?
And yet again you want me to compare apples to oranges? But okay, try RVD/Lynn. The chairs and tables were used a minute fraction of the time and honestly weren't even necessary as they were garnering heavy pops for the twenty-five minutes they tore the house down. They were just put in place to give the matches the hardcore legitimacy that ECW was known for. But it certainly wasn't the backbone of the product, like you'd like me to say. Once again, read the name of the company on the bill.
Once again I say, the ECW crowd will react to anything. Its not hard to do that. They are a small hardcore group of fans. They would react to a guy taking a shit in the ring...
And just like I stated in the other thread when you mentioned someone taking a piss in the ring...where wouldn't something like that get a reaction?
You mean the rest of what happened on the midcard? Where the GOOD stuff happened? Where the GOOD wrestlers played second fiddle to the brutality of Sandman/Sabu or the high spots of Lynn/RVD?
Whether or not they were better was a matter of perspective. And one more time, you are playing a purist's card on a non-purist company. They had some of those elements, and in some cases a lot, but they were encased in a company that ran on a different type of fuel. I'm sure I can find a few who would agree that the highspots of Lynn/RVD are a shade better than the average game you champion at present. As for Sandman and Sabu? Did you expect joint locks and submission wrestling from them?
Youre saying the stuff that I mentioned that came before didnt matter, so why does ECW matter? Everything ECW takes credit for happened before the, in one way or another and youre disreguaring it because it didnt happen to the degree that you think it takes to make an impact. It only takes a spark to start a fire.
Because the last decade of major American wrestling product was ignited by the spark that is ECW! Do you think that WCW or WWF would've instated hardcore divisions on their own? Cruiserweight/Light-heavyweight titles? Maybe shoot promos? Hell no. If the older encounters you've mentioned are so important, then why hasn't their been a Thunderdome or Dog-Collar match in a long while? Not saying I wouldn't be into seeing those done with current talent, but the lasting impact they had is obviously negligible with what we watch today.
It would be ******ed to pay a ticket to see one match and bitch about the rest, because thats all your whole evening is based off of. If you only want to see Benoit/Angle and you think the rest is shit, what is the point when the bad supposedly outweighs the good? Because smarks love their self involved diatribes about what they "know" to be "the superior" form of pro wrestling.
What's wrong with knowing what you like? You appear to be a definite mark not just for old-hat grappling (which is fine) but non-voicing conformity. This is America, where if I happen to pay the ticket price, I'm perfectly allowed to boo or cheer or start chants as I please. Hell, I'd pay full ticket price to watch a rematch of Angle and Benoit if it was in the vein of RR 2003. That match was worth the admission price alone. It depends on what you value. Hell, I'm going to see Smackdown and ECW so I can actually see what the crowd is really like without the canned audio of the tapings. If I see an effort in the ring as being good, you better believe I'll be cheering my ass off. If I don't like it, though, I'll be the first guy to speak his mind. Having an opinion is never a crime. Neither is voicing it. That's why you and I have been talking to each other, ya know?
ECW went national and they could barely draw 200 people outside of their major markets.
Actually, they were regional in terms of touring, and national in terms of their TV slot (which was short-lived anyway). I live in Washington State and they never came within a state of where I live. WWE comes here at least once a year and has since I can remember.
The difference is, Metallica/Megadeth/Anthax/Slayer all were part of a revolution. NOTHING had been done like that before. NOTHING sounded like them. Not Sabbath, not Maiden, not Priest, not anyone. The stuff ECW was doing had been DONE ALREADY.
Allow me to play devil's advocate on this one. Metallica and the others were obviously influenced by the NWOBHM and it's more than apparent when Metallica directly lifted covers from a number of bands including Venom. All these bands did was combine that style with punk and play it faster. See? I can argue the invalidity either way for these guys.
WWE fans give NO response when someone messes up. Thats how you tell if someone doesnt like it. Why do you think Cena keeps getting pushed despite the boos? BECCAUSE HE STILL DRAWS A REACTION. Good or bad, he draws a reaction and thats all that matters. When you start getting silence, like when Shelton Benjamin comes out, you have a problem. But in ECW you didnt have that. The crowd there would react, as I said, to someone shitting in the ring.
Might that be because some of them are kids and don't realize it's fake or don't understand things because they are indeed, marks? Maybe they are pensive and don't understand. Or maybe they are way far out in a sea of people and are unfamiliar with who is in the ring? There are handful of reasons why they don't react. Could Shelton's lack of cheers lately have resulted from the ass-end being removed from his push that most of the audience doesn't even remember at this point? He seemed to be getting tons of cheers when he made the jump to Raw in 2004, but then they happened to derail his push and guess what happens then? Any crowd would react to someone shitting in the ring. I'll keep typing that for you until you understand.
Oh so Sabu coming out with an Arabian head dress is much more real?
Considering he is the Shiek's relative and is of Arabian decent, I'd figure so. After all, it worked for Hassan, didn't it? Was that not realistic?
Really and Sandman breaking a beer over his head, thats REAL why?
Mostly because it draws blood every time, so it just gives it that shoot appeal. His whole beer-drinking, cussing brawler aspect was a blueprint for what they used for Steve Austin circa 1997, so apparently is did something worth a damn.
Crazy ring get ups dont make you a cartoon character, the person you portray to the audience is the cartoon character. He was a no nonsense Im gonna kick the shit out of you Japanese shooter.
I'm not saying Mutoh wasn't a shooter. However, if he was strictly over as a shooter, then why would he have TWO distinct ring personalities anyway? One which was him in trunks and boots just wrestling. The other with him dressed like a Kabuki experiment kicking up the theatricality to the Nth degree. I fail to see the connection between those characters in terms of them both being "realistic." One was cartoonish (no matter how much I love it...and I always have) and the other was not. Nothing simpler than that.
Really? Because you sure fooled me by turning your opinions into FACT....
Well, I'm happy you're happy.
